Meet the Press NOW — February 12

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I'm Nellie Zonato in Washington. And we begin with breaking news. The Trump administration today announcing it is ending its surge of federal agents in Minnesota and that a quote significant drawdown is now underway. It comes as funding for the Department of Homeland Security is set to lapse tomorrow with Democrats and the White House so far unable to reach an agreement on reforms to ICE.

Starting in Minnesota, President Trump's borders are Tom Homan making the announcement this morning that the federal government's immigration crackdown, dubbed Operation Metro Surge, is over after weeks of backlash, violent clashes between agents and protesters and the deaths of two American citizens. I have proposed, and President Trump has concurred, that this surge operation conclude. A significant drawdown has already been underway this week and will continue through the next week. The surge is leaving Minnesota safer, Minneapolis safer because of the cooperation we got with the counties and the state and local law enforcement responding to our needs.

I'll say it again. It's less of a sanctuary state for criminals. Minnesota Governor Tim Walz reacting, welcoming the announcement, but also acknowledging it marks the start of a long road ahead to recovery. The announcement today by Mr.

Homan, we are cautiously optimistic, as we've said, and that this surge of untrained, aggressive federal agents are going to leave Minnesota. And I guess they'll go wherever they're going to go. But the fact of the matter is they left us with deep damage, generational trauma, an issue the president saw himself as being strong, certainly politically, as he wrote it into a albatross around their neck. And so I think in my take was they knew they needed to get out of here, but in very Trumpian fashion, they needed to save face.

The drawdown in Minneapolis comes as the Department of Homeland Security is barreling towards a shutdown tomorrow night, with lawmakers deadlocked over reforms to ICE. Democrats signaling they will not support another stopgap funding bill for DHS and arguing the White House isn't seriously engaged in negotiations. Republicans, though, are pointing the finger right back at Democrats. Here's Senate Majority Leader John Thune.

We warned Democrats they were not allowing enough time for this process, but they insisted on their two-week timeframe CR anyway. And now that we have been proven right, the onus is on Democrats who agreed to an additional CR to allow time to complete the negotiations. Unless, of course, Democrats are more interested in a political issue than they are the natural outcome. And in the Senate today, top immigration officials testified before the Senate Homeland Security Committee facing questions about their tactics and the circumstances surrounding the deaths of Renee Nicole Good and Alex Pretty.

Republican Committee Chairman Senator Rand Paul opening the hearing with this warning for the heads of ICE and CBP. It's clearly evident that the public trust has been lost. To restore trust in ICE and Border Patrol, they must admit their mistakes, be honest and forthright with their rules of engagement, and pledge to reform. Joining me now is NBC senior national political reporter Sahil Kapur, NBC White House correspondent Julia Earhart, and NBC senior Homeland Security correspondent Julia Ainsley.

Thank you so much for joining me. Sahil, I want to start with you. What has been the reaction on Capitol Hill today to that announcement about a drawdown of federal agents in Minnesota? Hey, Mel.

Well, Republicans are sticking close to President Trump here. Many of them are eager to move on from the situation in Minnesota. And among Democrats, the reaction has been twofold. They say good, but not good enough.

The reason being they don't trust the administration. They say anything President Trump and his officials do can easily be undone. And that's why they insist that DHS needs structural reforms and limitations, which they say have to be codified into law, which is the main reason that DHS is on a path to be shut down tomorrow at midnight, given that they don't have an agreement yet. Our colleague Ryan Noble spoke to Senator Amy Klobuchar, the Democrat from Minnesota, who's running for governor.

Take a listen to what she said. So obviously, Mr. Homan said today that they've concluded their activities in Minnesota. Does that bring you any degree of relief?

It does some, but we know this isn't over yet. What I take from all this is that Minnesota stood up. We stood up. We stared them down.

And we didn't blink. We stood up for our country and for democracy. And now there must still be a lot of work to do. And there's got to be accountability for the money spent here.

I didn't vote for this $75 billion that they added to the ICE budget. I think it's outrageous. They're now bigger than the FBI. And then this agency needs a complete overhaul.

But my number one focus over the next few days is to hold them to their word that ICE is out of Minnesota. And in addition to that, Mel, Minnesota's AG, Keith Ellison, was on Capitol Hill today testifying. He said the demotion of Greg Boveino has been a positive development that he's actually had a positive constructive conversations with Tom Homan, who's taking over the situation, which he said wasn't the case with Boveino or DHS Secretary Kirstjen Niel. Yeah, really fascinating hearing on Capitol Hill today.

That DHS funding bill, though, it did fail in the Senate today. So, Sahil, explain to me what happens now and how long could DHS actually be shut down here? Yeah, it's practically certain, Mel, that there will be a DHS shutdown tomorrow at midnight. Note that more than 90 percent of the government is fully funded.

So the shutdown only applies to DHS. That includes the TSA. That includes FEMA. It includes the Coast Guard.

It doesn't, for instance, include air traffic controllers. So it's a bit of a different situation than we had last fall. What's interesting here is that the two sides are actually talking and they're engaging. I was just at a press conference moments ago with Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer.

And what was interesting is what he didn't say. He didn't say what the White House is offering in return in exchange for what the Democrats are offering. He didn't say who he's negotiating with at the White House. The fact that these details aren't spilling out tends to be a sign that negotiations are actually constructive.

He did say that the White House and Republicans need to get serious, which he insisted they're not. So there's still some ways to go here. And there's also the fact that both chambers just left town. There are no lawmakers around anymore.

So they're not supposed to be back until about a week and a half. If they do come to a deal in the House and the Senate, we're going to have to come back from recess to vote on it. But so far, we don't even have that yet. So this could go on for a while now.

An empty Capitol and a looming shutdown, something we are all too familiar with around here. Sahil, thank you so much. Julie, I want to turn to you. What do we know, if anything, about that counterproposal that was offered by the White House to Democrats last night?

Mel, I'll pick up where Sahil left off, which is that it is a good sign that when I asked the senior administration official what exactly they put in their counterproposal that was sent yesterday, what exactly are the sticking points they really refused to engage on it? That tells me that they're still willing to negotiate, even as they say, and blame Democrats for this impending shutdown, saying that the blame is on them for the shutdown of those critical services that you heard Sahil talk about. But when I pressed the senior administration official just a couple of moments ago, what are some of the red lines that we're talking about here? They mentioned the warrantless arrest that has been a sticking point, a demand that Democrats have asked for.

Also, the demand that these ICE agents remove their masks. That's something that President Trump had referred to earlier today. But interestingly, what they said is the administration is not going to accept concessions that meaningfully affect its ability to carry out its immigration enforcement agenda. We know the timeline on this that the two sides, the White House and Democrats, have been trading papers since about last Saturday.

So far, though, of course, we don't know exactly what the sticking points are. But I thought it was notable, as the senior administration official also said, is that if this isn't progress, what is the fact that that drawdown was announced today, the fact that they gave Democrats a substantive and binding proposal dealing with practices of the Department of Homeland Security's immigration enforcement. That's those are the words of the senior administration official. Clearly, they want to come to some kind of deal with Democrats.

And I should note that they began that background call by saying what happened in Minneapolis was a tragic situation. So clearly a very different situation that we found ourselves in in the fall when Sahil was referring to the shutdown then. Julie Serkin from a still snowy White House lawn. Thank you so much.

Julia, I want to bring you into this conversation. You know, is it clear what's next in terms of this drawdown? Well, it's not. And I think that's news in itself in a way.

But if you're picking up on what Julie's saying, she's saying that this drawdown is in part supposed to be a signal to Democrats that, as President Trump told our Tom Yamas last week, they are considering a softer touch on immigration. Previously, when one city drew down, we knew about the next city. we're talking to the officials in Mexico, said they had no indications of anything like that happening. It seemed to be a quick blame game, going back to some of the president's talking points that they should always blame immigration and anything happening at the border for any reason why something like this would happen when in fact it looks like a self-inflicted wound.

Julia, thank you so much for breaking all that down, fascinating stuff. Coming up next, new clues in the search for Nancy Guthrie. Investigators confirm they have recovered a pair of black gloves that have now been sent out for DNA testing as thousands of tips continue to pour in. Plus, Delce Rodriguez meets the press.

Our Kristen Welker sits down with Venezuela's interim president, marking the leader's first interview with a U.S. journalist since Nicolas Maduro was captured by the U.S. military. That exclusive is straight ahead.

You're watching Meet the Press Now. Welcome back. We're following new developments right now in the search for Nancy Guthrie as the investigation into the disappearance of the mother of our colleagues, Savannah Guthrie, enters its 12th day. Investigators confirmed this afternoon that they recovered a pair of gloves during their search of the area around Nancy Guthrie's home earlier this week.

Those gloves, along with other unspecified evidence, have been sent for analysis. Authorities are also asking neighbors who live within two miles of Nancy Guthrie's home to check their home surveillance systems for any video of anything they consider out of the ordinary from January 1st through February 2nd. Joining me now from Tucson is NBC's Dana Griffin. Also with me is Andy Black, former assistant special agent in charge for the FBI in Tucson.

Thank you so much for joining me, Dana. I want to start with you because we say authorities put up a tent outside of Nancy Guthrie's home today. Do we know why? Now, we don't know exactly why they were there.

There's about five agents that came in around 745 this morning local time. And about an hour and 20 something minutes later, those same five agents walked out. They were carrying backpacks. This is the same entryway where that chilling surveillance video captured a man outside Nancy Guthrie's home the morning that she went missing.

But he's there tampering with the camera there. So it's possible that investigators are trying to take more investigative steps to try to identify that person. And that could be anything from taking measurements, taking photos, trying to swap for additional DNA samples. But at this hour, investigators have not disclosed exactly why they were there.

Now, we've also seen a show of support from her neighbors. I know you've been there on the ground. Describe the scene for us outside of the Guthrie home. You know, Mel, it has been just an overwhelming show of support over these last two weeks.

And right now, neighbors are pulling together, trying to collect and send as many yellow flowers and roses to Nancy Guthrie's home. They are sending them just underneath her mailbox. And the color yellow is a traditional symbol for hope and the safe return of someone who is missing. So it's just been beautiful to see the community show up.

Some neighbors also putting ribbons outside or putting ribbons outside of their own home as a way to show the Guthrie family that they are not in this alone and that they are still praying and hoping for Nancy's safe return. That's a touching show of support there from the community. Savannah Guthrie also posted a new video to social media today. What was her message?

So she posted this beautiful montage. It's essentially a video of her and her siblings when they were younger. And in the first video, you see Annie and Savannah, the sisters, giving their mom flowers. She's smelling them.

And it's just like one of those feel good nostalgic videos. And there's a photo of all three siblings, Annie, Savannah and Cameron. And on the post, Savannah wrote our lovely mom. And she actually used a yellow heart.

She says we will never give up on her. Thank you for your prayers and hope. And it's just like a little glimmer to show, you know, to again continue to humanize Nancy and the mother that she is and just how much she means to Savannah and her siblings. Savannah has made it very clear that they are like best friends.

We've seen Nancy Guthrie make several appearances over the years on the Today show. And so it's just nice to kind of see her, you know, trying to keep her mother's name out there in this case, very active and to thank people who across the world now have been vested in the story, praying for her family and wanting some sort of resolution. And I thank you so much for all the hard work you're doing on the ground. I know you'll keep us posted with any updates as you get them.

Andy, we're now on the 12th day in the search for her mother here. Are you surprised she remains missing and that whoever took Nancy Guthrie is still actually out there? You know, obviously, it was really heartbreaking footage to share. Obviously, everybody working this case is doing their very best.

The FBI is the very best in the world in working kidnappings. They have an excellent relationship with the sheriff's department. I know for a fact the FBI personnel working this, the sheriffs, they get invested in this case emotionally. They know the time is of the essence.

And if it's dragged on this long, it's not because of lack of effort. Authorities are also trying to solve this crime while also trying to find Nancy Guthrie at the same time, whose fate remains unknown. So how much does that sort of complicate the whole investigation? Well, it creates a sense of urgency, right, for the community, too.

This case is being played out publicly. Typically, kidnapping cases, anyone's I've been involved in, we're all low under the radar. The FBI always brings vast resources regardless of who the victim is. In this case, this was all negotiated through the media and public.

So there's a lot of scrutiny because of that. And we have a famous individual associated with this case. So this does add complexities. I think we got a really good break in the case, though, with that video thanks to Google and the FBI forensics people resurrecting the video of the intruder.

And I think we're very close. The FBI and the sheriff's department is very close to making a break in this case because of that evidence that was shared with the public. The FBI always relies on the public to help them with their investigations. Even something like the Unabomb case was made because of help from the public.

And I think we're gonna get that here. We have a lot of armchair investigators who are checking their surveillance videos at home and seeing if they've got an individual who matches the individual shown in that video. You know, we're all hoping for a break, of course, in this case. Speaking, though, of the complexities and the high profile nature of this case, the FBI says it received more than four thousand tips in the 24 hours after it released that video from outside of Nancy Guthrie's home.

So could this flood of tips actually hamper efforts to find helpful leads? It's a good thing and it's a bad thing at the same time because it creates a lot of noise. And the how these cases are worked, you have a team in the command center that reviews the leads that come in and they assign the priority of it. And they work down from the highest priority to the lowest.

They try to leave every no lead unturned. But again, when you have a volume like this, you have to prioritize and work your way through them. I think the FBI is doing that. I think the public is going to come through and really help wrap this up in the very near future.

I'm very optimistic. One other thing I wanted to touch on is that investigators have returned to Nancy Guthrie's home several times over just the last several days. Why might that be? You know, the FBI and the sheriff's department are keeping a lot of information close to the vest as they should.

So I don't want to speculate. Obviously, they're getting either information from the community or from sources that are telling them maybe you need to look here. Maybe there might be evidence here in this part of the house. But there's there is a reason they're doing it, but they're not sharing.

Andy Black, thank you. Up next, who's really in charge of Venezuela? Kristen Welker sits down with the country's interim president and the U.S. energy secretary, Chris Wright, in Caracas.

That exclusive reporting is next. Stay with us on Meet the Press Now. Welcome back. And now to an NBC News exclusive.

A little over a month since the stunning capture of Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro by U.S. special forces. Meet the press moderator Kristen Welker is in Caracas where she sat down with Venezuela's interim president, Delcy Rodriguez, in her first interview with an American journalist since taking office following Maduro's ousting. The interview coming at a historic moment as U.S.

Energy Secretary Chris Wright met with Rodriguez on Wednesday, the first time a member of Trump's cabinet has visited Venezuela. Kristen began asking interim president Rodriguez about that power dynamic. Take a listen. Who is in charge here in Venezuela?

Are you in charge or is President Trump in charge? Well, I can tell you I am in charge of the presidency of Venezuela, as it's stated clearly in the Constitution of Venezuela. And from the amount of work that I have from how busy I am, I can tell you it's very, very hard work and we're doing it completely day by day. Are you taking direction from President Trump?

So I can tell you I have had two phone calls with President Trump and many more with Secretary Rubio. We have in every single phone call have had very respectful conversations and we have kept a level, a high level of cooperation and respect so that we can develop a joint work. And I must really be grateful for this level of cooperation and With regards to her coming back to the country, she will have to answer to Venezuela why she called upon an intervention, a military intervention, why she called upon sanctions to Venezuela, and why she celebrated the actions that took place at the beginning of January. So you won't help her return?

No. It is not something that is up to me. And here's more now from Kristen in Caracas. Mel, it's good to be with you.

The weight of this history-making moment palpable as Energy Secretary Chris Wright met with interim President Delcy Rodriguez, the highest-ranking official to hold talks here in Venezuela. Secretary Wright saying this is a part of building a bridge to Venezuela and also a part of rebuilding the crumbling energy infrastructure and economy here in this country. It was notable. You could feel the presence of the media.

In fact, we are told that the interim president remarked on just how many reporters were here to capture the moment, not just reporters from Venezuela, but of course the United States as well. And it speaks to the fact that a shift is underway here in Venezuela. For her part, you could also sense that the interim president was trying to walk a very challenging and fine line, appealing both to her constituents and saying she still believes that Nicolas Maduro is the legitimate leader of Venezuela. Of course, many of them are still loyal to Nicolas Maduro.

And at the same time, trying to extend an olive branch to the United States, to President Trump, saying that she had spoken to President Trump two times, that she has been invited to the White House, and that she anticipates that will happen at some time. For his part, Energy Secretary Chris Wright trying to strike an optimistic note, but looming large over all of this, can both sides trust each other? I pressed the Energy Secretary on that point. President Trump called Nicolas Maduro a, quote, illegitimate dictator.

The interim president, Delcy Rodriguez, was his number two. Do you trust interim president Delcy Rodriguez? I trust but verify, trust but verify. We've been dealing with Delcy for five weeks now.

It's been an amazing cooperation. She's delivered information. Everything we know so far has turned out to be true. She's made enormous positive changes, including already changing the hydrocarbon law in the country in the first few weeks.

So I would say that cooperation is off to a tremendous start. You already feel it as you walk the streets of Caracas today, that after so many years going the wrong direction, things are going the right direction. I think it's the start of a long and very fruitful cooperation for Venezuelans. The president Trump's been very clear.

He sees the United States role as overseeing what happens in Venezuela. How long should Americans expect that role to continue? Years, longer than a decade? No, no, no.

I think that will be concluded during this administration. But, yeah, that's I think you will see this operation concluded during this administration. And I think we will see just a dramatically different Venezuela then. By the time this administration leaves, oil production will be up 50 to 100 percent.

Natural gas production will probably be at least doubled. Venezuelans will get electricity not just a few hours a day, but most hours of the day. We'll see incomes rising. You'll see millions of Venezuelans returning to this country.

And you'll see this northern part of South America again a prosperous, peaceful American allied region of the world. A few other sticking points, political prisoners. The administration wants Venezuela to release all of its political prisoners still holding more than 600. I asked the interim president if she commits to doing that.

She chose her words very carefully, saying that she will release those who are not guilty of crimes. So really trying again to walk that very fine line. And then on the broader point, can she commit to free and fair elections? She said, yes, she will, in fact, commit to free and fair elections, but only once certain conditions are met.

And she noted that she wants to see sanctions lifted first. She would not commit to a timeline, which led a lot of difference from Energy Secretary Chris Wright, who said he anticipates there could be elections here within the next three years. Mel, back to you. Kristin Welker, just incredible reporting from Venezuela.

Thank you. And make sure to tune in to Nightly News Tonight for more of Kristen's exclusive interviews. And you can watch the full interviews online at NBCNews.com. Now let's turn back to where we started the show, the Department of Homeland Security looking likely to be shut down tomorrow at midnight as Democrats and the White House remain at a standstill over funding and reforms to ICE.

Joining me now is Republican Congressman Marlin Stutzman of Indiana. Congressman, thank you so much for joining us today. I want to start with this DHS funding fight because Democrats laid out 10 different demands, including things like no masks, requiring ID, tighter warrants for judicial warrants, uniform use of force standards. Is there anything in there that you would be willing to support?

Yeah, you know, Mel, first of all, great to be with you. And, you know, I think that's one of the things that we want to be sure that our officials out on the streets, our agents on the streets have the tools they need. One of the things that we had put into the bill was additional funding for body cameras, also for additional training. And but the Democrats seem to be backing off of that now because they don't like the idea of mass surveillance with more cameras out on the streets.

But at the end of the day, we have to keep our agents safe. And we want to be sure, you know, just like the mask list, what they listed on their list. It's just something that I would not agree with. We want to make sure that our agents are are safe.

They can go home without being doxed or something like that. If their image would get out on the Internet, they have to have the flexibility to do whatever they have to do to keep the agent safe. Would you support a mandate on those body worn cameras? I would.

I think that it's important that the cameras are on and that that way, if something happens, like we saw two deaths up in Minnesota, that there's plenty of evidence that we have different angles, as well as, you know, just being sure that whatever we can capture in a bad situation is captured. President Trump said in an interview with our Tommy Yamas that he needs to take a softer touch with immigration. We also have polling that just came out yesterday here at NBC that shows the majority of Americans disapprove of the Trump administration's handling of border security and immigration. So given those numbers, do you think that something needs to change in terms of the ICE tactics on the ground?

Well, I think that the you know, we always have to support our agents, making sure that they can do their job for the safety of the community, also for the safety of themselves and that they can accomplish what their mission is. And that's to arrest those who are here in the country illegally and that have performed a criminal act. And for me personally, in Congress, I'm one of the co-authors on the Dignity Act. I think that there's something that needs to be done for the you know, those who are here that are undocumented.

You know, if they are here working, there should be some sort of ability to be legal, not citizenship, but something that would at least give them a documentation. And that way they could be legally going to work. And a lot of times, you know, for manufacturers and agriculture, construction, employers would be willing to sponsor those particular people as well if they aren't legally documented. So there has to be some sort of conversation around that because I think that, you know, one thing that President Trump did do that we all appreciate is he secured the border and making sure that there just isn't this constant flow of illegals coming into the country.

On the Dignity Act, have you had any conversations with either leadership or the White House about trying to get that through the House? Well, Maria Salazar from Florida is the lead sponsor on the Dignity Act and she's relentless and she's done a phenomenal job. And there's a pretty good cross-section of members that are supporting that. I totally understand those on the opposite side of me that say, look, we've got to make sure all the illegals are out of the country that are here.

But I just don't think that that's going to be possible. I mean, there's too many people here that are here working. And it's also the Dignity Act also applies to those who came here before the Biden administration. And so that's a five year look back anybody that's here before then would be eligible.

Those that weren't would not. So I think we should at least have a conversation at some point because we have to be realistic. Speaking of Congresswoman Salazar, she has been warning that Republicans are losing some of the gains they made with Hispanic voters in 2024. Do you share any of those concerns?

And are you worried at all, especially seeing some of these immigration polling numbers, that that could hurt Republicans in the midterms? I do, because, you know, I come from Northeast Indiana, a lot of agriculture, the RV industry. We have a lot of poultry. And, you know, people come to work and they come, you know, on a work visa of some sort or they let their visas expire and they don't have the ability to keep them up to date.

I do think that we should have a conversation and find some sort of path to legalization. Again, not citizenship, but to making sure that they are here on a work visa sort of program. I do want to turn to the other news of the day. Last night, six Republicans, you're not one of them, joined Democrats to terminate Trump's tariffs on Canada.

But shortly before that vote, President Trump put on social media any Republican in the House or Senate that Minnesota, obviously Democrats are cheering this news, but how do you think the White House is going to try to frame this? Are they going to try to declare it as a victory? Yeah, the White House wants to frame it as a win and not a retreat. We heard Tom Homan this morning saying that this drawdown is because of several factors, including that they have reduced the number of most wanted that they wanted within the U.S.

and the largest and worst in Minnesota. They've brought that number down, but there's been more cooperation with local governments in terms of letting folks are alerting the federal government as to who they are releasing from the prisons that would be up for deportation and other issues like that. I think that that's the way the White House is trying to get it. Now when you heard from Tim Waltz earlier today, he said at the local, the cooperation between local governments and federal government has not changed, which we know is one of the president's sticking points and that he would help them pack their bags.

And so I think that fundamentally, there was a belief that this drawdown could happen. We know they announced last week that they were reducing it by a thousand federal agents that this drawdown could happen. And that's why Tom Homan was being sent in to kind of cool things down. I think one thing that the White House has to worry about, particularly from the base, is whether or not this signals to them that this is going to be a retreat from some of those more aggressive tactics that we've seen, which we know that the president's base wants to see more of, wants to see at least a ramping up of those deportations, no matter if they are violent criminals or not.

Absolutely. TW, I want to turn to you. Do you think this immigration surge in Minnesota is going to cause any long-term damage or credibility to the White House? Because we had some polling that shows the numbers are going in the opposite direction for the White House on his handling of all of this.

Yeah, and I think that's why you're seeing the shift in the first place. And a lot of this will depend how these things move in the future, how Tom Homan orchestrates this moving forward. And I think a lot of people inside the administration are happy to see Tom Homan at the helm. He's always been one of the more responsible people.

He's worked through a number of administrations. Barack Obama obviously picked him out specifically for his great work. Look, the American people, if you take polling cumulatively over this last year or so, are pretty nuanced but pretty clear about what they think on this issue. They support immigration, but they very much disagree with illegal immigration.

They support deportation, especially for violent criminals, but they don't appreciate all of ICE's tactics. And also, they very much disagree with sanctuary city policies. So everyone in this DHS fight and on both sides of the aisle need to be reasonable. Local officials need to be reasonable and cooperate with ICE so they can get people who are here illegally and violent criminals out of the jail cells so they don't have to get them on the street.

Republicans also have to take a step back and re-examine some of the tactics of ICE. We've already seen them open the door to body-worn cameras. We've seen them obviously pull back some of the things in Minnesota. So we'll take everybody being reasonable because, let's be honest, no one has the votes to do quite anything in Congress right now.

Yeah, that's absolutely right. Janae, Americans tend to have short memories. Who knows how many news cycles there's going to be between now and November? Do you think those images of Minnesota are going to last, that voters are going to remember them when they go to the ballot box?

Absolutely. When you think about the murders of Alex Prady and Renee Good, these images are seared and these videos are seared into the memory of the American public forever. And we talk about some of the adjustments that DHS has made, that Tom Homan has made. But let's be clear, that's in response to polling that says that many Americans feel that ICE has gone too far and they feel that the White House has not handled this properly.

So I think they're really responding to their polling more than they are to the humanity and the atrocities. They need to rein in the chaos of this agency and they've done very little to do so until the polling, now that we're in an election year, shows that the American people do not approve. And certainly Democrats are going to try to keep it in the spotlight. I do want to turn to Capitol Hill briefly and to Attorney General Pam Bondi's hearing yesterday.

President Trump was pleased. He posted on social media today saying that AG Pam Bondi, under intense fire from the Trump deranged radical left lunatics, was fantastic at yesterday's hearing on the never-ending saga of Jeffrey Epstein. So Jasmine, do you think yesterday's hearing was mission accomplished for the Attorney General? I think if you're looking at that through social, then yes, it was.

I think that Pam Bondi continuously operates for an audience of one, and that is being President Trump. I think throughout all of the kind of scandals or questions that I've heard from sources about whether or not this is going to be the end for Pam Bondi, specifically around this Epstein issue, I think that a lot of people within the president's orbit, allies, even folks at the White House feel that Pam Bondi has not done a good job on the Epstein issue, not just releasing those files, but in curbing all of the conversation around it. She has maintained her position in part because President Trump really likes her. And so I think if you're Pam Bondi and you have kind of reacted the way that she did yesterday, then you see that through social today.

You're feeling pretty good about your position. T.W., I want to get your take on this here. A resident Republican at the table. Well, look, I agree with the president that I'd like to be talking about something other than Epstein.

But the fact of the matter is, when you have such harsh accusations going on about so many people, when the Epstein files have so much evil within them, it doesn't behoove you to continually throw roadblocks in the way of getting all that information out there. Republicans and Democrats alike want to see people held accountable for the crimes of Jeffrey Epstein. And the quicker we can get all the information out there and do the good work to hold people accountable, the quicker we can talk about Trump accounts. The way the economy is going, low fuel costs, the no tax on tip, no tax on overtime, no tax on Social Security.

Those are the things that are going to really matter come Election Day. And the only way to get through the Epstein thing is to get everything out there and allow the information to be publicized. Jenny, one thing we've heard Democrats saying is something about the Epstein class trying to create this distinction between the elites that are really leaning into that as a message. But what do you think Democrats should do in terms of strategy?

Should they lean into the Epstein stuff come November? Well, I think what the American people want to see is they want to see the truth and they want to see accountability. And the longer that the White House and others who are really around this issue continue to try to, as T.W. mentioned, throw roadblocks and distractions, the more that people are going to continue to have questions.

So I think that what Democrats need to do is continue to point out the fact that the truth does not come out, that there are people who are being protected who need to be held accountable. And I think the American people really do appreciate that there are people who are still seeking truth in this scandal. And so I think what's important here is for Democrats, for members to continue pushing for truth and being on the side of right in this issue. Jasmine, something else that happened at the hearing yesterday, probably the most notable moment, was that a Reuters photo surfaced showing Pam Bondi holding a piece of paper entitled Jaypal Pramila search history.

It seems that the Justice Department might be tracking what lawmakers were searching when they went to view the redacted Epstein documents. I mean, this is not the exact type of surveillance and weaponization that Republicans for so long complained about under the Biden administration. I mean, I just want to note that it's crazy how much information that we get from AP photos and Getty photos across all the different photographers. But it's not just Jaypal who is kind of raising the alarm on this.

We've heard from Nancy Mace, a Republican, saying that she thinks that she was tracked. She has evidence of it. And then you had Speaker Mike Johnson coming out and basically saying that this isn't right. And so I think that there is you know, you can have a conversation about whether or not this is hypocrisy.

I think if you're a Democrat, you would say that this is hypocritical. But fundamentally, I think that there is a question about what the Department of Justice is doing as it pertains to these files. And fundamentally, the question that I hear from Republicans over and over again is why can't they just figure this out? We'll have to leave it there.

Jasmine TW and Jane, thank you so much for joining us. We're back tomorrow with more Meet the Press now. And there's more ahead on NBC News. Hey, everyone, I'm Dylan Dreyer, co-host of the third hour of today and mom to three wild boys.

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