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See website for details. Welcome to MEET THE PRESS Now. I'm Kristen Welker on an unprecedented and historic day in Washington where a face to face meeting between President Trump and Ukraine's President Zelensky in the Oval Office turned combative and confrontational. Zelensky left the White House without signing the deal to give the US Access to Ukraine's rare earth minerals and without holding the planned joint press conference conference with President Trump.
The White House says they told Ukrainian officials that President Zelensky needed to leave the White House and return when he is ready for peace. It was a truly extraordinary moment in the Oval Office spiraling into a shouting match with Vice President Vance berating President Zelensky for not being more grateful and President Trump threatening to abandon Ukraine. Here's some of what happened during that heated exchange in the Oval Office. What kind of diplomacy GD you are speaking about?
What do you mean? I'm talking about the kind of diplomacy that's going to end the destruction of your country. Mr. President, with respect, I think it's disrespectful for you to come to the Oval Office, try to litigate this in front of the American media.
Right now you guys are going around and forcing conscripts to the front lines because you have manpower problems. You should be thanking the president to come to the Oval Office of the United States of America and attack. The administration is trying to try to prevent the destruction of your country. A lot of questions.
Let's start from the beginning. First of all, during the war, everybody has problems, even you. But you have nice ocean and don't feel now, but you will feel it in the future. Don't tell us what we're going to feel.
We're trying to solve a problem. Don't tell us what we're going to feel. I'm not telling you. You're in no position to dictate what we're going to feel.
Very. We're going to feel very good and very strong. You're right now not in a very good position. You've allowed yourself to be in a very bad position from the very beginning of the world.
You're not in a good position. You don't have the cards right now with us. You start having cards right now. You're a friend.
You're gambling with the lives of billions of people. You're gambling with World War iii. You're gambling with World War iii. And what you're doing is very disrespectful to the country, this country, far more than a lot of people say they should have.
You said thank you once. No, in this entire meeting, you said thank you. You went to Pennsylvania and campaigned for the opposition in October. Offer some words of appreciation for the United States of America and the president who's trying to save your country.
Your country's in big trouble. No, no. They got a lot of talking. Your country is in big trouble.
I know. You're not winning. You're not winning this. You have a damn good chance of going out, okay?
Because of your breath. If you didn't have our military equipment, if you didn't have our military equipment, this war would have been over in two weeks. I heard it from Putin in three days. This is something maybe less in two weeks.
Of course, yes. It's going to be a very hard thing to do, business like this. Say thank you, I said to Americans, accept that there are disagreements and let litigate those disagreements rather than trying to fight it out in the American media when you're wrong. The confrontation shocking even some people in the Oval Office.
A photographer in the room capturing this moment of Ukraine's ambassador to the US with her head in her hands shortly after President Trump called off the rest of President Zelensky's visit. After leaving the White House, President Zelensky posted on X thanking the US and the White House for the meeting, adding that he will continue to work towards a just and lasting peace for Ukraine. Republican Senator Lindsey Graham, who's been a longtime supporter of sending aid to Ukraine, spoke to reporters outside the White House late this afternoon and called the meeting a complete and utter disaster and suggested President Zelensky should resign, saying, quote, I don't know if we can ever do business with him again. So right now, a day that was supposed to move the peace process forward may have done exactly the opposite.
And now major questions remain about where the United States, Ukraine relationship goes from here. Joining me now is our team reporters, NBC News White House correspondent Yimi Schalindor, NBC News chief foreign correspondent Richard Engel, and NBC News senior national security correspondent Courtney qb. Thanks to all of you for starting us off on this monumental day. Yamiche, let me go to you what are administration officials telling you about how this Oval Office meeting erupted and devolved into this disaster?
Well, Chris, this really was a rare, testy and extraordinary exchange between the president of Ukraine and President Trump. After those cameras left and we saw all that confrontation happened, President Trump huddled with White House advisors and decided that he wanted President Zelensky to be shown the door and leave the White House, canceling the press conference, canceling any sort of signing that would happen on that rare earth minerals agreement. It was Secretary Marco Rubio. Secretary Marco Rubio and the national Security Adviser, Michael Waltz, who delivered that message to President Zelensky and Ukrainian officials telling them they needed to le.
I am being told by White House officials that Ukrainian officials were pushing for a reset, that they wanted to say that, of course, the White House's tape were still waiting for Ukraine officials to say what they were thinking. The point is that everything was canceled. And as Zelensky left the White House in the meantime, President Trump took to online explaining that he believed President Zelensky was not ready for peace, that he could come back when he was ready. White House officials tell me there is absolutely no chance that President Zelensky will be walking back to the White House today.
They're leaving open maybe the possibility that they can talk to him in the future. But as you said, Senator Lindsey Graham is saying that President Zelensky might not be something that the White House could ever work with again. So very, very hard to see how President Trump and President Zelensky on the same page to have another meeting. But really a remarkable day at the White House.
It really, it really was Yamiche. There's no other way to say it. Richard Engle, I want to go to you now and keep everyone in place. We'll kind of go around the forum here.
Richard. I've been covering White House since the first Obama administration. I have never seen anything like this. Talk about how unprecedented this is and what is the reaction?
What are Ukrainians telling you about the potential implications for peace? So this was a disaster for Ukraine. You've used that word several times in the broadcast so far. Disaster, disaster, disaster.
It's a disaster for Ukraine because Ukrainians were very nervous about this visit. They were very nervous about this rare earth mineral deal. They were already feeling that President Trump has been siding with President Putin, that his heart is with Russia, that he doesn't have much interest in backing Ukraine, that he's been trying mostly to recoup past monies and trying to shut this problem off to Europe. Finally, the meeting happened Like I said, many Ukrainians were nervous that President Zelensky was effectively being summoned to the White House to sign a deal that would give President Trump this mineral deal that potentially could cost hundreds of billions of dollars.
And Zelens, he kept chiming in that he wants security guarantees, that he wants more, that he thinks it's important to make sure that Vladimir Putin is not in a position to invade again. And as he kept pushing that line, you saw him come under attack from JD Vance, who said, effectively, you don't get it. It's the other way around. You're supposed to be here to sign, to say thank you and to move on and not keep bringing up this issue of the security guarantees.
And you just played out how it evolved and escalated with Zelenskyy being berated first and being shouted down first by Vance and then by President Trump. At home in Ukraine, people are thinking that right now they don't have a friend in the White House. And I think this could represent a definitive shift where President Zelenskyy and President Trump are now perceived to be enemies, where President Trump is treating President Zelensky like he is. The.
This issue of appreciation, by the way, is very significant for Ukrainians, because at the White House, you really want. You saw President Trump and Vice President Vance stressing that President Zelensky is not appreciative enough, that he should be there accepting his weak position, admitting effectively that he is powerless. He refused to do that, and that set the White House off. I think this is the beginning of a very difficult chapter for Ukraine.
And frankly, before you continue with your whip around, other countries are watching, other allies are watching. What happened when an ally, indeed went to the United States to sign a deal that President Trump wanted to sign. And when he didn't express the proper amount of appreciation, he didn't keep his mouth shut and just nod. He was thrown out, and the deal is now potentially off the table.
And President Trump could be treating him like an adversary going forward. Other allies are watching that and clearly imagining that they could be next, that next time they are in a time of need, that they could be in that chair in the Oval Office being told that they're not appreciative, being told to quiet down and to get out of town if they don't like what they're being told. A very blunt, brutal display of American politics that is bad for Ukraine, certainly, and has many in Europe concerned. The Prime Minister Estonia just said, the free world needs a new leader.
It's incredibly powerful. And I'm so Glad you make that point, Richard, because I do think one of the big questions looming over that display, that exchange, that eruption of anger in the Oval Office is what it will mean, how it will potentially scramble the United States alliances around the world. Courtney Kibi, let me go to you now. What is the reaction within the national security world?
What are the potential implications? So Kristen, there's two very distinct reactions that we're seeing here today and frankly they fall on party lines, political lines. So some of them, the mega people here and the political people here in the Pentagon are praising this and saying that this is an example of America, America first on the world stage, President Trump, Vice President Vance showing strength, showing President Zelensky that the United States is going to stand their ground for their beliefs. The other side, which I will say is the majority of the people I've spoken with today anyway are very concerned about the implications of this.
Now the United States has been sending weapons and equipment to Ukraine for more than three years now to help them fight off the Russian advances, the Russian full scale invasion, the third anniversary of that just days ago. And that has been something that the Pentagon and the military have been in favor of. They have been very proud of their ability to flow the these weapons into the war zone very quickly. It's been a monumental logistical effort that they have been able to send billions of dollars of weapons and equipment into, into Ukraine.
And military members and military leaders, frankly we speak with about that, are proud of the fact that they've been able to help Ukraine, who was to call them the underdog in February 2022 is an understatement. And yet there they are still continuing to fight off the Russian advances in the east and down towards the south. So that side, they are very concerned about it. I think from a larger strategic view from the US Military.
The reality is this Pentagon and this, this leadership here have made it very clear that they are intent on withdrawing the US from the positions that we have in Europe. We don't know what it looks like, we don't know how wide it's going to be. But Secretary of Defense, Vice President, even the President have talked about how the Europe needs to own responsibility for the defense of Europe, that includes Ukraine, because the United States, while they will continue to be committed to, to their partnerships and to NATO, that is going to be more of a commitment in name or and less of a commitment in action going forward. They have made that clear on the world stage for the last several weeks.
It's such an important point Court and the fact that President Trump continues to hammer that point home in all of these foreign leader meetings he's had with the president of France, the prime minister of the UK Just yesterday. Richard, let me go back to you. Let's talk about where this goes from here. I'll play you some of what President Trump said yesterday about peace deal talks.
We're working very hard to get that war brought to an end. I think we've made a lot of progress. I think it's moving along pretty rapidly and I want to thank all of the people that are here that have been working on it and we'll let you know what's what happens. It'll either be fairly soon or it won't be at all.
Richard. Of course, all of that comes after the president referred to Zelensky as a dictator after he blamed Ukraine falsely for starting the war. Of course Russia started the war and invaded Ukraine. At this point, can this relationship be repaired?
Richard, what do you anticipate happening? It really depends on what we just saw. Did we see an emotional outburst by big personalities or was this an ambush? Was this pre planned?
Did the Vance go in there as a jump provocateur and try and provoke Zelensky and then Zelensky took the bait? Was it that or was it a situation that just spiraled out of control? If it spiraled out of control and was an ugly heated argument, then it is possible that they reconcile, that there's some meeting, a bearing of the hatchet. But it didn't sound like that.
It sounded like there were a lot of previous issues that were involved here as well. A lot of war under the bridge. You saw J.D. vance, who's never been a supporter of sending support, sending money to Ukraine or backing the cause in a particular way.
You saw this, what seemed to be, I don't want to say premeditated attack, but there seemed to be a lot that came out that didn't have to do with the peace deal or has to do with minerals. You saw JD Vance clearly angry that President Zelensky had been campaigning for the opposition, campaigning for the Democrats in Pennsylvania. You heard President Trump talk about how Vladimir Putin and he both had to suffer through what he describes as Russiagate and showing solidarity with Putin. It's like he's building that same case again.
Ukraine started this war. It's Ukraine's fault. Poor Vladimir Putin who had to go through Russiagate and be insulted just like Donald Trump was. And Ukraine isn't expressing enough appreciation that the US Helped them out.
He said to Zelenskyy I empowered you to be a tough guy. Like it was him personally who created the Persona of Vladimir Zelensky. The other people around the world, they saw Zelensky just stand up to President Trump and Vice President Vance in the White House in a foreign language in the Oval Office, which is something that is not easy to do. Well, fantastic reporting analysis around this extraordinary event that unfolded in the Oval Office just a short time ago.
So thank you all for starting us off. Richard Yamiche and Courtney. Joining me now to keep the conversation going is former U.S. ambassador to Russia Michael McFall.
He's also an NBC News international affairs analyst. Ambassador, thank you for joining us on this hugely day. What are your takeaways? What are the implications from your perspective of what we just witnessed?
Well, first as an American, this is a tragic, sad day. This should not happen in the Oval Office. We should not be berating people that are fighting to save their country. It just got off the rails.
It's unfortunate because it could have been a great day. This minerals deal, was it good for both sides? I know that the Ukrainian side is looking forward to signing it. And the bottom line is that this does not serve America's national security interest.
Let's leave aside Ukraine. It is not in our interest to do things that help Vladimir Putin. And that's what we saw today. This is a gift to Vladimir Putin, the dictator of Russia who for the first time since 1945 launched a full scale war complete with annexation in Europe.
That is not in our to be on that side. And I hope to your question about implications that the diplomats can get involved here. You know I did diplomacy, I did White House phrase. As you know, you don't do diplomacy in front of the press in the Oval Office.
That's just the policy 101. Get the get behind closed doors and start talking. And number two, Secretary Rubio now has to start to do his job. We need him to get this back on track and we need him to do that before America's national interests.
Well, to that point, Ambassador, can you just help put this into context because it's not hard to imagine tempers flaring behind closed doors. But I've covered the administration going back to the first Obama administration. I can't remember anything that comes close to approaching this level of intensity. Is that accurate?
How do you see this and talk about the divide and why it's important that if tempers are going to flare, they do so behind closed doors. Well, you're exactly right. To the best of my knowledge too. I've never seen anything like this.
It's a mistake. I want to underscore, you know, blame both sides if we have to. But I did work at the White House, right? I organized these phrase.
I organized the talking points. I wrote the talking points for President Obama. Trump needs some staff here. This is not.
He just lost a riff. And when he riffs, you know, we don't have time to go through it all, but he just says things that are not true all the time. $350 billion. Who's not responsible for this?
There was no war on my watch. There was a war in Ukraine. For the entire time that President Trump was the President of the United States, he forgets the war started in 2014, escalated in 2022. But the main point is we've got to get this back on track because it's not in our interest to have a blow up with Ukraine.
We're alienating all of our allies in Europe. We're making all of our part around the world nervous. I mean, think if you're Taiwan right now watching this, what does that mean for them? We've got to get this back on track, and we gotta get behind closed doors.
I've had explosions like this with actually with Russians in negotiations, but they weren't with cameras on. And we got to get this back on track. Well, you take me to my next point, Ambassador. I want to play in exchange.
This was for the end of that Oval Office spray. This was about Vladimir Putin. Listen, I'll get your reaction on the other side. All I can say is this.
He might have broken deals with Obama and Bush and he might have broken with Biden. He did. Maybe, maybe. I don't know what happened, but he didn't break it with me.
He wants to make a deal. I don't know if he can make a deal. The problem is I've empowered you to be a tough guy, and you. I don't think you'd be a tough guy without the United States.
And your people are very brave, but you're either gonna make a deal or we're out. And if we're out, you'll fight it out. Ambassador, what are the potential ramifications of President Trump arguing? Yes, Putin's broken deals before, but he doesn't think he will with him.
You obviously are someone who's quite familiar with Vladimir Putin. What do you think of that? So there are two, and I'll be diplomatically ingenious, two misstatements that the president just made just in that clip. Number one, what deal is he Talking about that he negotiated with Vladimir Putin.
He didn't do any deals. A New Start agreement. Did he do a deal? No.
Did he do a deal on Iran? No. Did he do a big trade deal with. With Putin?
No. Did he end the war in Ukraine that were fighting in Eastern Ukraine for his entire presidency? No. So this myth that he's some big deal maker, maybe he wasn't New York, I don't know his history there.
And maybe these kind of tactics work, you know, when you're doing real estate deals. But there was no deal to be broken because he didn't achieve any deal with Vladimir Putin. Number two, when he says that we made President Zelensky a tough guy, he's partly right. The United States gave President Zelensky and his warriors the means to fight, to stop Putin's invasion.
Where they're at today. It is a miracle, by the way, that they're where they're at today and not occupying all of Ukraine. But let's be very clear about that. President Trump didn't do that.
President Trump and his party delayed assistance for six months while Zelensky soldiers were slaughtered on the battlefield. The Senator Vance sitting in that room wanting some praise for President Zelensky. He voted against that aid package. That is a fact.
Everyone Google it. And right now, they're not. They're not proposing new cards for President Zelensky to play. They're not proposing a new package that would help to create the permissive conditions for a negotiation.
So I hope they rethink negotiating strategy, because right now, they're just giving Putin everything he wants and getting nothing in return for our national interest. Ambassador McFall, thank you so very much for joining us on this historic day. As always, we really appreciate your insights. Joining now is Democratic Senator Jack Reed of Rhode Island.
He is the ranking member on the Senate Armed Services Committee and has met with President Zelensky in Washington. And in keep. Senator, thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate it.
Thank you. I want to start by getting your reaction to the extraordinary turn of events today in the Oval Office. Well, as Richard suggested, this was a calculated political ambush. I don't think this was a accidental interchange that escalated.
This was calculated, and it was a shameful display of the lack of leadership Trump administration. The president did essentially what he did with regard to the Taliban. He surrendered. He did that in Doha.
He did that without the participation of the Afghan government. And he did everything that Taliban wanted and even more. And he's doing the same thing again. So his deal making is not quite up to the demands of international diplomacy.
And it was a terrible day for the United States. There are some other sides of talking about America First. No, this is America alone. And the basis of our national security since World War II has been a alliance network that has strengthened us, made us more powerful.
And he's basically walking away from that. You talk about the America first perspective. Let me get your reaction to what some of your Republican colleagues are saying. Utah Senator Mike Lee, quote, thank you for standing up for our country and putting America first.
President Trump and Vice President President Vance, Indiana's Jim Banks Zelensky ungratefully expects us to bankroll and escalate another forever war, all while disrespecting the President. The entitlement is insulting to working Americans. How do you respond to that? Well, if you run the tape back again, the verbal fireworks began with Vice President Vance and effect probably in a calculated way.
And we have been supporting Ukraine along with our allies across the globe, particularly Europe. But the Ukrainians have been fighting 46,000 casualties or more. I think those are the soldiers killing action. But we are a situation where everyone thought when the Russians came across the border, Zelensky would and he said, no, don't give me a car, give me ammo.
I'm going to fight these guys. And his fight is our fight. It's about freedom versus authoritarianism. It's about a world which sovereign nations can feel that they are not threatened by authority regimes.
So all of this apologizing by the Republicans doesn't, I think, eliminate the facts on the ground. We just effectively in all respects surrender to Senator, really powerful words there. I want to get your sense, given what you're saying of where things stand now and if you think it's possible to get these talks, which haven't even started, the possibility of talks back on track. The Ukrainians were supposed to sign an agreement to give the US 50 access to its rare earth minerals.
That didn't get done today. Do you think it's possible to get these discussions back on track? Track, I hope so. But the conduct of the President, Vice President, was dismissive, not encouraging.
Frankly, as many pointed out, if this discussion, as Peter as it was, took place behind closed doors and then the three came out and said, you know, we're still working, we want to ensure that there is a peaceful solution, that would be a very positive sign that that didn't happen. This is very discouraging, not only for the Ukrainians, but for our allies and our adversaries. Not discouraging. I think they're encouraged because if you're trying to looking across the ocean at the United States, you probably feel a little more powerful at this moment because we don't seem to be standing up for what we say we believe in and who we say are our ones.
Senator Lindsey Graham told reporters outside of the White House today that President Zelensky may need to step down if there's ever going to be a deal. Deal. Do you think that's the case? What's your reaction to your colleague, Senator Lindsey Graham?
Well, I think again, without President Zelensky, the Ukrainian government could collapse within the first day or two of the invasion. He has forward tenacity. He has faced difficult challenges and he continues to have the support of the people of Ukraine. They will not give up the fight.
And he's trying to communicate that to the president. This is the feeling I think that I see emanating not just on President Zelensky, but for the people of Ukraine. And stepping down will not make a difference. It will not cause the Ukrainian people to say, that's fine, we will subjugate it to the Russians, we like to be serfs of the Russians, etc.
That's nonsense. Senator, let me tell you a little bit more of what we saw and heard today in the Oval Office. Take a look. Look, let me tell you, Putin went through a hell of a lot with me.
He went through a phony witch hunt where they used him in Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia. You ever hear that deal? That was a phony. That was a phony Hunter Biden, Joe Biden scam, Hillary Clinton, shifty Adam Schiff.
It was a Democrat scam and he had to go through that. And he did go through it. We didn't end up in a war and he went through it. He was accused of all that stuff.
He had nothing to do with it. Of course, the US Intelligence did determine that Putin was trying to meddle in the US Election. But Senator, what do you make of him bringing up those old grievances and those comments almost seem to defend Vladimir Putin. Well, I'm not surprised that he's defending, as you recall, when he was president his first term, he I think, went out of his way to facilitate Putin and to essentially to Geneva before it's suggesting that that situation was something that was just made up is nonsense.
That he was impeached by the House and he was not convicted by the Senate. But there was a serious, serious breach, I believe, of the policy. Senator, very quickly, before I let you go, should Ukraine still consider the United states to be an ally. Ukraine should still consider the people of the United States as an ally.
Absolutely. And those who are working to keep this support in place. But no, I think the American people have understood the sacrifices they've made and understand if they all other democratic countries will be the next victims. And our people, I think, are more aware of what's going on in some of our leaders.
Senator Jack Reed, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your perspective today. Please come back and join us again soon. Coming up, Oval Office Showdown. We are sticking with this breaking news story and the fallout as US Ukraine relations and the future of the war face an inflection point.
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Com xfinity for full on returns and details. Welcome back. As we said after that extraordinary moment in the Oval Office today, most Republicans are defending President Trump's handling of the situation. Nebraska Congressman Don Bacon, though, has been one of the few Republicans to condemn the meeting.
He told me, quote, this is a bad day for America's foreign policy. Ukraine wants independence, free markets and rule of law. It wants to be part of the West. Russia hates us and our Western values.
We should be clear that we stand for freedom. Joining me now is Susan Lasser, staff writer for the New Yorker. And with me on Sennis, Moses Townsend, former senior advisor to Vice President Harris and co host of the Weekend on msnbc, and Danielle Plaque, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and an NDC news contributor. Thanks to all of you starting us off on this really significant day.
Susan, let me go to you for first. What do you think the message is from what happened today in the Oval Office, not just Ukraine, but to the United States allies? Yeah, I mean, I think what you see is really the very visible and almost painful manifestation of what's been unfolding for the last few weeks, which is Donald Trump essentially unilaterally changing American foreign policy. He is changing sides effectively in the Russia, Ukraine war.
And you know, we saw that a few days ago on the third anniversary of Russia's invasion, full scale invasion of Ukraine. He had the United States vote on the side of Russia, North Korea and Belarus against Ukraine and against most of our Western European allies. And so today it was a very personal, pointed version of that flip flop in geopolitics. You're seeing this extraordinary parade of European leaders in the aftermath of this Oval Office confrontation go publicly supporting Ukraine, said, we stand with you.
And I fear that we're seeing not just a rift between the United States and Ukraine in the form of Trump and Zelensky, but a much wider rift between the United States and Europe. And remember, Donald Trump has been a long time skeptic of the value of alliances, in particular the value of NATO. His vice president, J.D. vance, who seemed to provoke the confrontation today in the Oval Office, again skeptical both of Ukraine and of the value of American partnerships in Europe.
Danny, let me turn to you now here at the table. I want to talk about the point that Susan makes, which is there now a broader potential risk between the United States and European allies. But Danny, I want to start off by getting you to respond to something that Senator Jacqueline said. He said he thought this was orchestrated, that it was likely planned, that they wanted to put him in this position that to potentially make him accept a deal down the line.
What do you make of that suspicion that some people have? By the way, I've spoken to some officials who said it's not the case, this happened organically. What say you? Well, I suspect that Jack Reid's insight into what's happening in the Trump White House is probably limited.
Look, you know, we can conspiracy theorize all we want, knowing what I know, and I've been very involved and I work with people who've been very involved in these discussions between the United States and Ukraine. What I will say is, if I had to assign blame to somebody for orchestrating anything, it would be the vice president. I think this is consistent with his ideology, his more recent ideology. I think it's consistent with what he suggested at a certain point in Munich, although at other times he suggested other things.
And I think this is his crowd. This is the isolationist, we hang around with the great powers kind of crowd. I don't think this is where the president was coming from. And nothing the president said up to that moment suggested that that was where he was coming.
I think it's really important it went off the rails once this is going to be over. Once President Trump spoke, you could think Zelensky was kind of like, but he didn't say anything. And then Vice President BS Jumped in and said, I just want to make a final point. I want to say something else.
And it was at that point when the vice President went on what was a little bit of a very extensive tirade, if you will, that positioned some of what we heard from Vladimir Putin, that President Zelensky said, can I ask you, J.D. and that's when I was like, oh, no. And that was an opportunity for President Trump to say, no, you can't. We're going to continue this in private.
But instead, the cameras kept rolling, and you had Zelensky in a position that I don't think he's ever been in when we're sitting in the Oval Office, a place where he has been a number of times, in a place where he has, frankly, had very tough conversations, just not in front of the cameras. And so the message to our allies, frankly, is that if this president and this vice president don't like what you're saying, don't like what you're doing, they will not have a problem berating you. Be listening. Potentially humiliating you in public.
Danny. So I think you drew a very good picture of how this came out. I've been watching the show. I think I have a contrarian viewpoint about this.
You know, look, I would like Donald Trump to not only say the right thing and do the right thing, I would like everybody, I'd like all our presidents, like Biden, to do the right thing on Ukraine as well. But at the end of the day, watch Zelensky. Okay, dude, you want something here, right? You want American support, You want American investment in your country?
Do not do this and lean forward and Start telling the vice president in front of the camera how it's how it is and how he ought to be. He did not handle this well and I wish he had handled it differently. Susan, let me let you jump in here about Zelensky's role and to part of the argument Danny's making a lot. I spoke to White House officials yesterday who said President Trump is going to be more measured in his tone.
Don't expect him to accuse Zelensky of being a dictator, for example. Again, what about this point that Danny's making right now? Seems to me the White House official was giving you some very uncredible spin. I mean, I have to tell you that, you know, it's true that J.D.
vance, I absolutely agree with Danny that, you know, J.D. vance has been, you know, kind of the leading proponent of a view of very anti Ukraine, anti US Involvement in the world view of foreign policy. But what happened in the Oval Office today was extremely consistent with Donald Trump's years long parroting of Russian lies, disinformation and talking points about the war in Ukraine. By the way, lies and disinformation that predate Vladimir Polinsky being the president of Ukraine and go all the way back to his first term in office when he hosted Petro Poroshenko in the White House and in a private meeting, according to his then ambassador, Ukraine, according to Poroshenko as well, whom I interviewed recently about this meeting, Donald Trump was again parroting Russian lies about whether Crimea was Russian, was telling the president of Ukraine to his face, well, you're just a crap country.
And I know that because someone at Mar A Lago told me. So let's just be really clear that while the confrontation does appear today to be at least escalated in some way by J.D. vance, that the views that we heard and the lies and disinformation that we heard from Donald Trump in that meeting are very consistent with who he is and the policy that he has been pursuing here towards Ukraine. There's been a lot of disinformation.
There have been a lot of people spinning you and other people, Republicans here, wishful thinking, Europeans for understandable reasons telling us that, oh no, actually Donald Trump was going to support Ukraine. That's not happening. And I think it's very hard for people to look this in the eye and to realize what are the consequences of the United States effectively switching sides in the world to be on the side of a dictator like Vladimir Putin is the US Switching sides to be on the side of a dictator. And John Bolton says yes, he says Trump advance have declared themselves to be on Russia's side in the Russia Ukraine war.
This is a catastrophic mistake for America's national security and letting clear Trump advance now personally own that policy. It is not the view of a majority of Americans of either or no political party. Look, I hope that's not true. I think it's, I think it's hyperbolic.
I know what Susan professes is a lie. In fact, Donald Trump was very excited about this deal. Now, again, you know, we all want, we all want people. I just think that the deal, when we say they do mean the minerals.
Yeah. Just so our audience that they were going to sign a minerals deal that would give 50% access to the U.S. susan, jump in quickly. Let me, let Dani finish.
I just, I would not like to be miscarriagecrafts on the air. I didn't say that anything about Donald Trump said it was lying about the minerals deal. Donald Trump spewed forth a lot of lies and misinformation in this meeting. Well, actually, what Susan said, if I hope I'm not misplaying her, was that the White House was spinning you about how Donald Trump was going to handle this meeting.
And I think, in fact that was his full intention. Look, again, you know, a lot of us who live in Washington and especially those of us who are in the foreign policy community, we like those nice UN Votes. Okay? We like a nice UN Vote.
We like a nice ambassador. We like a president who kind of says the right thing because we know that Putin is a rotten dictator who invaded another country, sides with Iran, North Korea, China and is our enemy. Forget Ukraine, our enemy. Right?
So we know all those things. At the end of the day, we have the president. We have. And it's important to understand that if he sees the way to handle Putin as doing things differently, if he sees the way to begin a relationship with Ukraine fresh, not on the back of the US Taxpayer via this mineral deal that you described, then that's a way to get there as well.
And the problem is we spend so much time worrying about the things that don't matter. Short stinks when we vote with the wrong people at the UN at the end of the day, as Israel knows all too well, who cares how the UN Vote? Can I just say that that is very concerning to hear. It doesn't matter how you voted.
It matters. White House, I believe it does matter. Let me just say this. The minerals deal is.
Would be the United States getting something from Ukraine. It is a give to. It would be a give from Ukraine to the president. So what Donald Trump was excited about today was the middle.
He's never talked about being excited about peace. He said today that, oh, how can I criticize too and say, oh, how's the deal going? He has no problem criticizing. And so I think to Susan's point, it is very important to underscore here that the president is being very clear about who he thinks deserves criticism and berating and rating over the proverbial polls and who deserves the new language.
And the person he believes deserves berating is the person whose country was invaded and whose sovereignty was trampled on, not the aggressor. The aggressor's glad recruitment. That is a fact. Unfortunately, we are out of time.
But I do think that the question remains, will this scramble the United States alliances with its allies to the point that really all of you making, thank you so much for a very fiery conversation today. Appreciate it. Susan, Simone and Danielle, fantastic. We will be right back.
Same with us. Hey guys, Willie Geist here reminding you to check out the Sunday Sit down podcast. On this week's episode, I sit down with one of the biggest fans in the world, Mumford and Sons, as we get the boys together to talk about their new number one album, Prize Fighter and the evolution of that irresistible foot stomping sound. You can get our conversation for free wherever you download your podcasts.
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The price is subject to change. Visit NBC news.com for full offer terms and details. Welcome back. The Trump administration is facing more pushback from the courts over its effort to slash the federal workforce even as it moves forward with additional cuts.
The latest target, the national oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, or noaa. The White House informed hundreds of probationary employees at the agency, which includes the National Weather Service and the National Hurricane center, that they were late yesterday. That came on the same day a federal judge called the mass firings of federal employees illegal and ordered the Trump administration to rescind a memo directing agencies to determine which workers should be fired. The ruling does not reinstate workers who have already been laid off.
Now, this was the scene this afternoon in Detroit where some of those federal employees who've been let go held A rally outside of VA Medical center where they had worked. The VA dismissed more than 1400 probationary employees this week. NBC News correspondent Shaquille Brewster joins me now from Detroit. So, Shaq, you've been talking to those who are out there who are protesting, set the scene for us.
What are folks telling you? Look, a lot of them are upset, and they're upset at their own situation, prospect of not having a job. But many of them pointed back to the veterans who they serve inside the hospital, despite them being veterans themselves. You had one person tell me they went to her on Tuesday.
She was a greeter at the VA Hospital in Ann Arbor and wasn't able to help veterans with their cars or their transportation after their appointment. Another saying that she was the only kind of physical therapist in that hospital and now there's no one else to help them do the specialized treatment that she has. The va, when you listen to what the Department of Veteran affairs is saying is essentially this is a move to save money. They say that this latest round is saving about $83 million a year.
And the V Tra saying while it's heartbreaking, this is something that they believe will help them better allocate resources. But a lot of the people out there, Kristen, are essentially saying that even if we needed to be cut, even if this position wasn't mission critical, as the VA is saying, there's a better way to go about it to make sure that people that are serving aren't also online for them not being there any longer. All right, Chef Brewster, I know you'll continue to follow for us. Thank you so much for that update and for being there.
Really appreciate it. Silicon Putin's Endgame, a new documentary takes a deep dive into the Russian president's goals beyond Ukraine. The journalist behind that documentary, former NBC News employees and our colleagues, they're going to join us. Stay with us.
NOW continues. Welcome back. As we've been covering throughout this hour, President Trump and President Zelensky had a fiery meeting at the White House today, a meeting many Europeans were hoping would pave the way for a better working relationship between the US And Ukraine. Following the meeting, several European leaders took to social media to voice their continued support for Ukraine as the future of the war in Ukraine hangs in the balance.
Now a new documentary from the Atlantic Council titled Putin's End Game, the Stakes Beyond Ukraine looks at what it means for NATO if Putin succeeds in Ukraine. Deep in the forests of Finland, they are keenly aware of present and past tensions with their Russian neighborhood. There's been A border here in places since the 1500s, often a flashpoint for incursion and dispute. Of course, it is Maddie Pican and his job to patrol this quarter in the Corellia region of Finland.
What do you think is going to happen if Russia wins in Ukraine? That is I, I think million dollar question. Maybe if I can answer to you with a question, have you ever met a millionaire who after earning his or her first million has said that this is enough, I don't want anymore. I don't think so.
Wow. Just chilling there. Joining me now is the film's director, Joel Simon and Kevin Tibbles, who was the reporter for the documentary. Both are former colleagues of ours right here at NBC News.
Congratulations to both of you. Thank you both for coming back to share this documentary with us. We really appreciate it. Kevin, I want to start with you and in light of this documentary and the work that you did on it, what was your reaction to what happened today in the Oval Office?
Well, I think that there has been a tremendous shiver run up the spine of every country that is on the border with Russia at this point in time. We were in Finland and Sweden, for example, two countries that decided to leave the world of non aligned nations and neutrality to join NATO as a result of Putin's invasion of Ukraine. And then there's Estonia, tiny little Estonia sitting there with the other Baltic states, Lithuania and Latvia. And they are sitting there knowing full well what it's like to be under the Russian boot because of course during the Soviet times they all were.
And I think that the fact that we were asking, I think Joel can expand on this as well. We were actually asking a rhetorical question. What do you think is going to happen if Putin wins Ukraine? I don't think anyone actually thought that that would ever happen.
I think that has all changed as of today. Well, Kevin, you take me to Joel. You were asking that what you thought was a rhetorical question. Has it now changed?
I think it has. I've been hearing from the foreign ministers of the three countries that we have visited, Sweden, Finland and Estonia. All of them are standing with Zelensky, all of them are standing with Ukraine. But their biggest fear, and I've talked to the ambassadors here in Washington in the last week.
Their biggest fear is they may have to go it alone. They may have to defend themselves without the US Umbrella. And I think that is something that is perturbing them in terms of can they actually do it. And the other question, question is Sommer was here just the other day and he said that he was willing to put British troops on the ground in Ukraine.
That's a really big effort to do it. And you heard the president today say, and he brought up the World War three idea. To have NATO troops in Ukraine now is incredibly risky. But the most important thing is, will this embolden Vladimir Putin?
Will he feel that the ability to hold territory that he's taken aggressively through an invasion will give him the opportunity to move into places that he's always wanted? Again, I think that that is the key question. When I spoke with President Zelensky just a few weeks ago, he told me that he has intelligence that the Russians are amassing troops in Belarus and he is concerned. And Ukraine had concerns that Russia is eyeing going into neighboring NATO nations.
What was your sense of that, based on your work in this documentary? Our sense is that the Baltics are very vulnerable. We were at a place called Narva, which is the easternmost point of the NATO alliance. It is literally across a river from Russia.
And the people of Narva knew full well that Putin just a year ago said that he would like to take Narva because Narva is very similar to the Donbas. 95% of its population speak Russia. They cross a bridge. That's something right out of the Cold War, a pedestrian bridge to go shopping across the river, because things are actually cheaper in Russia.
But will that be a vulnerable spot? I think it's very possible. Kevin, let me bring you back in here, because part of what you and Joel looked at in this documentary were the hybrid warfare tactics that the Russians used in the Baltic Sea and along the. The borders of Finland and Estonia.
Talk to us about that. What did you discover there? Well, I think, Chris, it's all about destabilizing societies. That's what this hybrid warfare is.
There's another word for it, simply sabotage. We have heard the stories of ships, either Chinese ships or ghost ships, that are traveling through the Baltic, dragging their anchors, ripping out communications cables and the like. And this is happening with quite some frequency now. Now, of course, Finland, the other NATO nations, are now stopping these ships, boarding them.
But it is all. It is all aimed at making people uneasy, disabilizing societies. As I said, in Estonia, for example, they're jamming radio signals and gps. Sometimes planes can't land at the airport.
As a result of that, once again, more nerves, more frayed ed. And this is. This is part and parcel of what took place in Ukraine prior to the invasion of Ukraine. You're talking about amassing troops in Belarus.
We're just following the same pattern. Well, we are unfortunately out of time, but we really appreciate it and incredible work on this documentary. Thanks to both of you. Joel Seiden and Kevin Tibbles.
We really appreciate it. It's great to see both of you again. We will be back Monday with Warm Me the press. Now, if it's Sunday, it's MEET the Press on your local NBC news station.
I'll have interviews with Senator Bernie Sanders, Senator Mike Johnson and Senator James Langford. The news continues to be astronomy and in for Hallie Jackson right now. Hey, it's Kate Snow, NBC News anchor and host of the Drink. This month, Demi Lovato is my guest.
The global superstar tells me that she is the happiest she's ever been right now. But getting there, it wasn't simple. Demi opens up about starting in Hollywood young and why she now thinks she may have started too soon. She talks about recovery, her new marriage and the deeply personal reason behind her new cookbook.
The Drink is always about the journey to the top, and this was an honest conversation about what that takes. Hope you'll listen and follow the Drink wherever you get your podcast.