If it's Monday. After the daring and deadly raid that brought home four Israeli hostages, Secretary of State Anthony Blinken is back in the region as a ceasefire deal in this eight month long war now seems even less likely. Plus, it's in the jury's hands. Deliberations beginning just moments ago in Hunter Biden's criminal trial.
And the verdict could come any moment as the president's son faces multiple charges tied to gun possession while using drugs. And former President Donald Trump meets virtually with his New York City probation officer as he hits the campaign trail, rails against the verdict and vows vengeance against his political enemies. And welcome to BEAT THE PRESS now. I'm Aaron Gilchrist in Washington.
We are learning more today about how Israel rescued four hostages this weekend from Gaza and about the casualties in that daring daytime operation. Over the weekend, emotional scenes of celebration and relief as those four hostages returned home to Israel, hugging the families after being held hostage for more than 240 days. The Masran Health Ministry is saying at least 274 Palestinian civilians were killed during the Israeli raid. And while Israel acknowledges there were civilian casualties, they estimate that number to be less than 100.
The IDF says all four hostages were being held in apartment buildings that also housed civilian families. And a U.S. official familiar with the matter says the U.S. provided intel to support the rescue operation.
And today, NBC News is also exclusively reporting that the Biden administration is considering a potential unilateral deal with Hamas to secure the release of American hostages in Gaza as well as the bodies of Americans killed during the October 7th attack. Now, when pressed about it by NBC's Andrea Mitchell today in Egypt, Secretary of State Blinken did not deny that report. My number one priority, Secretary of State, is to ensure the well being of Americans who are in harm's way anywhere in the world, including those who are being unjustly detained or will be held hostage. The best way, the most effective way to get everyone home, including the American hostages, is through this proposal, is through the ceasefire deal that's on the table right now.
Wouldn't indirect talks or the Americans at least bring those Americans home Again, my top priority, always bring Americans home. And because of that, the most effective way to do that, to achieve that actually at the moment, is through the pulsars I'm taking. Blinken is in Israel now, where he met with Prime Minister Netanyahu reiterating support for the current ceasefire proposal. Just one day after Israel's war cabinet began falling apart with Central Minister Ben Gantz resigning, accusing Netanyahu of playing politics with the War.
Joining me now are team of reporters Matt Bradley in Jerusalem and Courtney QB is at the Pentagon for us today. So Matt, I'll start with you here. There are some Israelis who've been pressing their government to focus more on rescuing hostages and less on destroying Hamas. What more we know about the operation this weekend and how is it resonating with Israeli people?
Well, obviously it's being seen here in Israel as a resoundingly successful operation among the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. They're calling it a brutal massacre. You mentioned those casualty figures. They are enormous considering there were four hostages who were freed.
So when you're talking about the outlook, the situation going forward, Israelis have increasingly seen the two goals of Benjamin Netanyahu in Gaza to be at odds with each other. Freeing Hamas or excuse me, freeing the hostages and defeating Hamas. And you were talking about this just a moment ago when you have both of them together fighting and freeing hostages. Benjamin Yahuwah and his allies in his very right wing government are now going to be able to to this and we're already seeing this.
There's the only solution, that continuing the war, not reaching a ceasefire is the best way to free the hostages. They can have their cake and eat it too. By continuing the war they will accomplish both goals. And as we mentioned before in the introduction of that kind of makes any peace negotiations that are now being shepherded by Secretary Blinken here in the Middle east even further apart, even less likely than they were before and they were not likely before.
Aaron, I want to go back to this number of casualties here. We do have the Masran Ministry of hell saying that more than 270 Palestinians were killed during that operation. Has Israel had much to say about the civilian deaths here? And also how are Arab countries reacting to this weekend's operation?
Well, this has been considered outrageous by most Arab countries and they're not celebrating like the Israelis, even those who have diplomatic relations. And you know, this is consistent, the same kind of noises we've been hearing from neighboring Arab countries and Muslim countries around the world. And really a lot of leaders in European countries, advocacy organizations, United nations officials, all outraged at the death toll, not just from what we saw in NSAO refugee camp over the weekend freeing those four hostages, but also now we've seen the death toll according to the Hamas run Ministry of Health in the Gaza Strip topping 37,000 people. Now even if that is an exaggeration, it is really consistently said that those numbers are inflated.
They are still sky high numbers really, no matter how you slice it. And that is what we're seeing and hearing from the Palestinians here. And Matthew, insert the US Here. We have Secretary Blinken back in Israel today, his eighth visit to the region since the fighting began in Gaza.
What are your biggest takeaways from the meeting that the secretary is having or had today in Israel? Well, I mean, you said it there, Aaron, his eighth visit in eight months of fighting. And that's not even counting the visits that we've seen from the CIA director and other diplomats who have also been pushing negotiations at a peace proposal. This is an elusive goal, trying to bring these two parties together.
As I mentioned just a moment ago, it's probably more elusive now than it was before. Anthony Blinken is going to have his work cut out for him. He's been pushing this idea that Israel has already signed on to this proposal and it's only waiting for Hamas signature. Now this is something that we kind of heard from the administration a couple weeks ago.
It was Joe Biden himself who put forward what he called Israel's proposal to not only make a pause in the conflict, but to use that pause to discuss a permanent ceasefire and to free more hostages and Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails. You know, now ever since we heard that from Biden, the Israelis have been backtracking on that and pouring cold water on the notion they have already exceeded this deal and all that left is Hamas's signature. We've already been hearing from Benjamin Netanyahu just yesterday kind of saying the same thing, that they are not going to be entertaining any peace deal. That doesn't mean the end of the complete dismantling of Hamas.
That is something that is a non starter for them to talk about a ceasefire. We're not to talk about it. Excuse me. To agree to a permanent ceasefire and withdrawal of Israeli troops without first totally defeating Hamas to their satisfaction.
Hamas, of course, isn't going to sign on to a proposal that involves their complete destruction. So once again we find ourselves in an impasse. This is a non starter for both sides, leaving us to wonder what next year according to qb, I'll bring you in for that. Take us through your new reporting on this idea of the US Doing a solo hostage deal.
Why does the administration feel like it needs a backup plan at this point? So for all the reasons that Matt's just been laying out to us there and the fact that there is growing pessimism about this current ceasefire deal that's on the table, actually coming to a place of an agreement here. And you, Matt, laid out the fact that even separation over the weekend has, has increased the pessimism that the Israelis and Hamas will be able to come to the table and agree to some sort of deal. Now, according to the officials who we spoke with, they said that if in fact this cease fire deal does fall apart, there has been discussion about the US Negotiating unilaterally with Hamas.
Now, what this would mean is the US Working through intermediary, most likely Qatar would be dealing directly with Hamas to try to get the remaining eight American hostages released from Hamas control. And the question is, what can the US offer? We've seen some of the specifics about the deal that's on the table with Hamas wanting a large number of prisoners freed with calling for a ceasefire. Well, these are things that the US can't directly deliver.
So it's not really clear what the US could provide in exchange for these Americans. But the officials we spoke with said Hamas could have some incentive to broker this deal, to make this deal with the US because of a couple. Number one, it could damage the relationship between the United States and Israel, one that has remained relatively solid since October 7th and frankly in the years before that. But even with everything that's happened since October 7th, the United States really specifically the Biden administration, have really stuck with Israel.
A deal like this, a unilateral deal, could damage that relationship and it could simultaneously damage Benjamin Netanyahu domestically. So for those reasons, the officials say it is possible that Hamas would make this deal. Aaron. So according to this reporting from you and Monica Alban, Carly has been out there now for several hours.
Has there been much reaction to, from families of American hostages to this reporting that you all done? We have, we've heard from some of the families who have said that they would be in favor of this sort of. We've been watching these pictures of the last 48 hours or so of these hostages who've just been rescued over the weekend from Gaza. And you can see their condition.
We're starting to hear these harrowing tales of what they endured during their time in captivity. And the families of Those more than 100 people who are still being held are desperate to get their loved ones out. And we have heard from them today saying, look, if it takes a direct negotiation here with Hamas to get our family out, we're for it. And I'm curious too.
We heard the perspective from Matt overseas, but we know it's been 10 days now since President Biden gave that speech. He laid out that three phase ceasefire proposal that he said was from the Israelis, from the sources you've been able to talk to which we've been able to learn here. Washington, are the sides any closer to a real agreement or seeing something come to fruition? Despite the optimism that we continue to hear out of some officials here in the Biden administration, we don't get the sense that this is any closer to an actual deal that we're going to see coming to fruition anytime soon.
But as we know, we're seeing the video of Secretary of State Anthony Blinken. He is there. Matt mentioned that CIA Director Bill Burns has also been back and forth to the region. I don't even know how many times at this point.
American officials are desperately trying, trying to come to a deal here. But the rally is. It just doesn't seem like the sides are coming together. You know, one of the other issues that we've really been hearing a lot about that the US Is continuing to press is this idea of Israel allowing more humanitarian aid in to allow the crossings open and trucks to get in.
So that some of the other pictures that we've been seeing, including the people starving in Gaza, that some of that could also be taken care of. I suspect that's going to be something else that Secretary Blinken talks about during his visit. Errand. All right, going to QB4.
It's the Pentagon that rally for as well. Israel. Thank you both. I want to turn now to Ambassador Dennis Ross, former US Envoy to the Middle east and NBC News foreign affairs analyst.
Ambassador, we appreciate you making some time for us today. Obviously, the rescue of these four hostages over the weekend is some good news. It's welcome news. How you think though, that operation and the reported 200 plus deaths will impact the ceasefire efforts that have been ongoing for months now.
You know, I think that it may have an initial. It may initially be something that doesn't contribute to doing a deal. But I would be a little bit hesitant to draw a definitive conclusion. You know, in the immediate aftermath within Israel, there's a sense, look, this is amazing, fantastic.
It's a sort of morale boost here. But there's also reality that six hostages out of the 251 who were seized have been freed by Israeli military action. There's very little prospect that you could recreate what we saw over the weekend. Maybe there could be another rescue or two, but again, the numbers will be very small.
And what we saw in this particular rescue operation was what Israelis had to do was to fight their way out. You know, the aim of the Israeli military was to get in, get out with as little notice as possible because if there was a big firefight, then you were putting at risk the very lives of the people you were trying to save. So it wasn't the Israelis who were triggering this firefight. It was Hamas that tried to kill both the Israeli rescuers and the people who were being rescued.
And that's what produced the outcome where you had maybe large numbers of civilians. Clearly, there are large numbers of civilians killed. The actual number may not be so clear, but it's clear there were large numbers who were killed. And if Hamas wasn't trying to stop the rescue operation, those numbers would look very different in the near term, I suspect, As I said here, there's a kind of.
There's a sense of being void. Hamas is probably embarrassed by what happened. So in the immediate aftermath of that, I don't believe that you're going to see a greater likelihood of a ceasefire deal being done. But if you ask me, a week from now, will we still be in the same place we are right now?
I wouldn't be sure. What gives you that feeling? I mean, you point out that the idea that Hamas might be embarrassed, what incentive do they have in the near term to go back to the drawing board to say, oh, yes, we'll take the deal, even though we have this new operation behind us? Well, a couple things.
One is Israelis are still operating in Rafah and they're also operating within central Gaza. One of the factors that influences Sinwar is how close is the Israeli military to him, and does he therefore have an interest in getting a reprieve? That's number one. That's one factor.
The second is, okay, maybe there will be other Israeli operations that we plan. The last thing Hamas wants to do is have other rescue operations that once again rob them of what they see as being these bargaining chips, these assets that they have. So I wouldn't conclude that necessarily from Hamas standpoint, everything is, in a sense, off the table. Number three, I suspect that they will be under increasing pressure from Qatar and from Egypt precisely because the Secretary of State is in the region.
So this is not a static situation. I think we shouldn't draw conclusions based on this operation and say, jna, it looks like it's impossible. I don't conclude it's impossible. Having said that, when Yahya Sinwar is the argument of whether or not you can do a hostage deal, it's pretty hard to predict that you're going to see one.
What do you think this does for Benjamin Netanyahu? Know that he's faced criticism from Israelis, from hostage families, for not Doing enough to get the hostages home at different points during this conflict. Does this rescue operation change that? Is he going to see domestic pressure, that he's been facing ease after the rescue of these four hostages, or does this embolden him to do more militarily?
Yeah, I kind of doubt it. What is going to affect him more is the makeup of his government. With Ben against and Gotti Eisenfak gone, they were, in a sense, a moderating influence. They limited the influence of the most far right elements of his coalition, ministers Ben Gabir and Smotrich.
They will be pressing for more military action. They will be pressing for more rescue operations. But this was a rescue operation that was rehearsed over and over again for several weeks. They had intelligence, they had for a while, hard to replicate that on the one hand.
On the other hand, it tends to signal that there may be some military options. Having said all that, you're going to see hostage families whose family members are living in impossible conditions. We know the numbers that are still surviving are going down. That will continue to be a source of pressure on the prime minister.
He can't wish that away. And the reality is that he still needs to be able to produce when it comes to hostages. There were very large demonstrations on Saturday night after the rescue operation. Very large demonstrations.
Most of the people in these demonstrations basically are saying, you can't say we have total victory if the vast majority of the hostages don't come back alive. That will continue to be a source of pressure on him. How he manages his new coalition. That will be a factor as well.
And he's gonna be under more pressure from the far right. He's gonna have to figure out a way to sort of maneuver, given that pressure. Before I let you go, I wanna ask you about Secretary Blinken. As we know, he's back in the Middle east for this 8th visit since the war began.
What do you think he needs to be able to come back home with? What does success look like for him on a trip, the eighth trip into this region to try to make some change? It's an excellent question, because the circumstances right now, as we were just saying, don't lend themselves necessarily to any kind of immediate breakthrough. I suspect, you know what would be an achievement would be a resumption of indirect negotiations between the Israelis and Hamas that are broken effectively by Egypt and Qatar.
The issue right now is if you don't have any indirect negotiations underway, there is no effort at brokering or mediating the ceasefire deal. So I suspect one of the things that he will be hoping to do will be to see if it's possible to get those indirect negotiations back on track. A second objective will be to get more understanding over what could be a day after strategy. If you get to the point where, in fact, you move on a process where there could be a hostage deal, I would also say if there is a hostage deal, you still need a strategy for what you can do on the ground.
I think discussions on what Arab states are prepared to do, under what circumstances and with what I'm standing with the Israelis, I think that will also be a part of what he's trying to get done on this trip. Okay. Ambassador Dennis Ross, we appreciate your time and your perspective today. Thank you.
My pleasure. Coming up, we are live outside the courthouse where the jury at Hunter Biden's criminal gun trial is now deliberating what we heard in closing arguments today as we await a verdict that could come any moment. Plus the rise of far right in Europe. We're tracking the fallout of this weekend's dramatic elections and what it means for the future of the continent and for the US you're watching MEET THE PRESS now.
And welcome back. After just one week and 13 witnesses, the jury is deliberating right now. In Hunter Biden's gun trial, the president's son faces three pounds tied to possession of a gun while using narcotics. The defense rested his case this morning without calling Hunter Biden to the stand.
During close arguments this afternoon, his lawyer, Abby Lowell, argued Biden did not knowingly lie on a federal gun purchase form saying he did not believe he was a user or addicted to drugs. At the time, the prosecution reminded the jury that none of the charges required them to prove Hunter Biden was using drugs when he purchased a gun, but also highlighted evidence that he was using drugs in the days and weeks surrounding that purchase. Joining me now from outside the courthouse is NBC News justice intelligence correspondent Ken Delaney, as well as Paul Callan, former prosecutor and former criminal defense, criminal defense attorney as well. Ken, I'll start with you here.
The prosecution started today by bringing back one of its earlier witnesses. Talk to us about why that was and what we heard from her. That's right, Erica Aaron. Her name is Erica Jensen.
She's an FBI agent. She was the prosecution's first witness in the trial. They used her to bring in lots of evidence gleaned from Hunter Biden's iCloud laptop, including text messages and phone records. And they called her as a rebuttal witness to remind the jury that there was lots of evidence of Hunter Biden dealing with drug dealers, potentially purchasing drugs the day before and the day after he bought that gun on October 12, 2018.
Some of that evidence already been admitted, including a text where he said he was dealing with a person named Mookie in Wilmington and a text two days after he bought the gun where he said he was smoking crack. But then there was new evidence that she discussed, including geolocation records that placed him at a 7:11. And she also introduced an excerpt from his memoir where he talked about buying drugs at 7:11. So it was powerful evidence.
It was the last thing that the jury heard in terms of testimony before closing arguments. Can we also see members of the Biden family, including the first lady, in attendance throughout this trial again today? Obviously, what was their reaction as they were listening into the closing arguments today? Well, first I should say that the lead prosecutor made an issue of it.
He began his closing argument by noting the prominent members of the Biden family in the room. Told the jury, you may know these people from the news, but that is not evidence and no one is above the law. They listened and watched rapidly as they have throughout this trial. But I have to say, my colleague Mike Menley, who knows the Biden family well and covered Joe Biden for many, many years, it struck him that there were some tense moments as that trial, as the arguments came to a conclusion.
There were some, some very long faces in terms of the first lady and other members of the Biden family did not seem pleased with how this trial has, has gone. Before I let you go, do I want to ask you to sort of help us understand what happens next year? What are the next steps now that the jury has the case and what comes after the verdict? Right.
So assuming there is a verdict and a hung jury, if it's an acquittal, that's the end of it. Andrew Biden walks out of this courthouse and he's done with this case. If he's convicted, obviously the judge has an option to incarcerate him immediately, but that is extremely unlikely. He's got no prior criminal records.
It's not a criminal violence. And so what's likely to happen in that event is that she would schedule a sentencing day, usually that's two to three months from now. And during that time, there would be a pre sentence report written by the probation department, it's confidential, involve an interview with Hunter Biden, all kinds of factors about his life and circumstances that would go into the sentencing. The sentencing, by the way, is going to be determined by sentencing guidelines.
There's a maximum 10 year penalty in this case, but that's not going to be the sentence here. If there is even prison time, it's likely be less than a year. Sorry, Kendall, a force live outside the courthouse there. William to Delaware.
Ken, thank you, Paul. Kyle, I want to turn to you now and talk about this a little bit more. We saw Biden's lawyers having this real focus of his defense on the idea that he did not knowingly lie on this background check form. Is the defense that appears to be based on a word, knowingly semantics, for example, is that something that is likely to be a strong defense at the resident of the jury?
You know, Myaron, it's not a great defense at all. Whenever you hear attorneys focusing on the definition of a word in the charge or the reasonable doubt as opposed to just saying my client is innocent and the evidence has clearly proven that, it's the sign that there's a very weak case on behalf of the defense in the case. This is a tough case for the defense. This is we have a Yale educated lawyer in Hunter Biden saying he didn't understand or the defense is that he didn't understand that the question on the form he filled out when it referred to addiction was referring to his own behavior.
And I think that's an uphill battle. But on the other hand, the Bidens are well liked in Delaware and the jury could look at this simply as a political move to embarrass the president. So it's not out of the question that he gets acquitted in the case, but I think it's an uphill battle for the defense. Well, let's talk a little about the prosecution here though, because the burden of proof is always on the prosecution.
Right. In the closing arguments, we heard the lawyer for the government remind the jury that they don't have to prove that Hunter used drug on the day that he purchased a gun. Help us understand that part of the argument. Your analysis of that, does that make things easier for the prosecution?
Well, it does make things easier for the prosecution because remember the thing that he checked off on the ATF form that you have to fill out when you purchase a handgun was that he was not a user or addicted to either unlawful substances or controlled substances. Now, if you look up the dictionary definition of addiction, it means a compulsive or psychological propensity to continue using a substance. It doesn't mean you have to be using that substance at every moment in time, such as when he's filling out the form. And I think the Defense of the case has been, well, he was an addict, but he didn't recognize himself as an addict at the time.
Because remember, one of the devastating pieces of evidence in this case is Hunter Biden's own book where he says that he was an addict during this two year period of time. So his very own words, and by the way, because he did an audible book, they even have him saying those words out loud as if he had testified in the trial that he was addicted to drugs during the two year period around 2018. So it's a tough fact pattern for the defense to deal with. Let me ask you a few more things about the defense here.
We saw the defense push back pretty hard on Hallie Biden's testimony. She was called by the prosecution. She suggested that they suggested that Hunter told her to find the gun and also told her to file a police report after it was dumped. Does redefining that testimony at this point give Hunter Biden more credibility?
Does it risk highlighting that he was more involved here? Hard to say, because you have to remember that part of her testimony also was that she became addicted to crack herself as a result of her relationship with him. So many of the women who were called in the case were very harmful to him. In terms of the testimony, I think with respect to the gun charge, that testimony would seem to indicate that he wasn't.
He hadn't planned to use the gun on any person in particular. And that at least the jury will think that nobody in Delaware was endangered by anything that he did during that time period other than himself. And of course, the big picture when you step way back on this case, and maybe the jury will do this, is that he hasn't been addicted to drugs for a very long time now, for at least a few years, and he seems to have straightened his life out. This kind of charge usually is lodged against an active addict who presents a danger to society.
So I think they're hoping that the jury will look at the big picture and not the details of the evidence. Well, let me ask you about that. We just learned that the jury has been sent home for the day. 430 was the time we understood that was going to be happening.
So they do have the case now, though they've been able to start at least some level of deliberation on this. How soon do you think we might see a verdict in a case like this with evidence presented in the way that you just laid out? Is this fairly straightforward legally? Well, it is straightforward legally, and I would be very surprised if we don't have a verdict tomorrow in the case.
I mean, it could go for a third day. But I would think by day's end tomorrow the jury would have been through all of the facts. Now, the only thing you can't really measure is whether there's a possibility of a hung jury, and that is if there are two or three jurors who really don't want to convict him and they're willing to hold out against the other jurors, then jury deliberations could go for a longer period of time. All right.
Paul Callan with us today. Paul, we appreciate your time today. Thank you. Thank you, Aaron.
Coming up next, Congressman Nancy Mace is in the fight for her political life. Will her vote to oust Speaker McCarthy cost her her seat in Congress? We'll explain that for you next. You're watching MEET THE press.
And welcome back. Whether you call it revenge, payback or just hard nosed politics, tomorrow's Republican primary For South Carolina's 1st congressional district is shaping up to be a dramatic proxy fight between incumbent Nancy mace and Kevin McCarthy, the former speaker of the House who she helped out last fall. NBC's Ali Vitali has more from the Palmetto State around Charleston, South Carolina. Shade isn't just thrown by the Palmettos.
Check out just a few. This is just a sampling of Catherine Templeton's lies. Our current congressman goes to Washington and votes however she wants. This race to oust.
Nancy Mace is the first of the primary challenges to the eight Republicans who voted out former Speaker Kevin McCarthy last year. I'm on the side of the people. I'm not on the side of the establishment. Now Mace appears to be Act 1 in McCarthy's Revenge tour, though he says he's not out for payback.
Are you on a political vengeance tour? No. You know, I know you guys try to say that McCarthy says it's not revenge tour. Oh, 100%.
He's a mean. I mean, absolutely. He's a mean girl. This is all about revenge.
It's about powerful people that were taken out. No regrets about never. Mace is no stranger to inter party feuds. Last cycle her quarrel was with Trump.
He endorsed her challenger who she beat by 5,000 votes. Now she's back in Trump's favor. Congresswoman Nancy Mace. We've come a long way.
We've come a long way. A full circle moment for the woman who called on her party to start over from Trump after January 6th. This was an easy call supporting Donald Trump because you had four years of Joe Biden. Mace has outraised and outspent her years opponent Catherine Templeton, a Trump backer and former labor secretary to former governor Nikki Haley.
She's widely seen as McCarthy's pick in this race. I haven't talked to him about taking out Congressman Mace, but have asked him to help me raise money. Mace's vote to boot. The speaker is why she's in it.
That's why you said that that's what you decided to do. Absolutely. She broke our trust and she did by voting on Kevin McCarthy. Still, she downplayed the former Speaker's power.
All due respect to Kevin McCarthy who is, I'm sure, wonderful man, nobody's paying attention to Kevin McCarthy and the low country of South Carolina. On the airwaves though, self serving politicians like Nancy Mace. Follow the money, find the rhino. That's Catherine.
GOP groups in for more than 8 million taxide to McCarthy among the biggest senders. Now it's a proxy battle at the ballot bots where voters settle to score one way or another. We need mature adults, not silly girls. I want to win bigger than ever before on Tuesday night because I want to send a message to Washington that voters don't care about D.C.
and Ally B joins us now from Charleston. So Ally, we heard from Templeton herself there, but is anybody in South Carolina paying attention to Kevin McCarthy? Does it seem like that's the case? If this is a revenge toward an effective platform, look, at this point McCarthy might be more a vehicle for getting Mace out of office.
You're seeing specifically the way that groups that are aligned or allied with the former speaker are spending big on the airwaves here trying to go negative on the incumbent on Nancy Mace. For Mace though, in our conversations with sources on the ground who know South Carolina So well, the McCarthy vote could be both a knock against her but also something that helps bolster her independent credentials. We know that conservative voters love people who go against the establishment who aren't afraid to buck the brain of the party. Certainly Mace against McCarthy did just that.
She thinks it could help her. And there's some experts who know South Carolina well. So Ellie, this is revenge tour. Who's number two on the list here?
This is the first act of the so called revenge Tour. And again, McCarthy might not think it's that, but we know the way that he talked about these members who voted against him. We know that these challengers also didn't come out of thin air. So next week we'll head to Virginia's 5th congressional district.
That's where Congressman Bob Good who's now the head of the raffle rousing Freedom Caucus will face his own challenger, a state senator there who's actually earned the endorsement of Donald Trump. It's going to be a very different dynamic than what we've seen on the ground here in Charleston where Mace has Trump endorsement. She's a powerful incumbent. Good, on the other hand, is working against the Trump reign.
He could be in some trouble. But of course, we'll see that next week. You mentioned Nancy Mace having Trump's endorsement. There was a point in time when she did not.
I mean, she, some would say, has a unique ability to sort of create some bad blood among party leaders there, including former President Trump at one time, and still survive. Does something like this only strengthen her hand? You think she has an act for that? Certainly.
And I think that she relishes the idea that she has earned attention for bucking the establishment, for going against the powerful people that are at the top of the party. Certainly it was something where you saw her with that scarlet letter A in the piece. That was something she wore, really earned attention for after the vote to House McCarthy. That attention getting is also something that her critics are seizing on here in this race, saying that she's not in it for South Carolina voting, she's in it to earn attention and media for herself.
Of course, Mace would say that she's still in this for South Carolina voter. She pointed to several different moments of constituent services, but that's really what she's trying to point to here. But look on the Trump of it all, she is someone who endorsed the former president at a critical moment here in South Carolina. It didn't go unnoticed by a lot of people, including Trump, because now he's back in the corner.
All right, Ally Valley Force in Charleston, South Carolina. Ally, thank you. Well, after the break, running on revenge, former President Trump lashes out against his political enemies and his criminal conviction as he meets with his probation officer. The panel's up next.
You're watching MEET THE PRESS now. And welcome back to MEET THE press. Now amid meetings with campaign staff, donors and strategists, former President Donald Trump has another kind of meeting on his schedule today with his probation officer. NBC News was first to report that the presumptive Republican nominee is sitting for a virtual interview with the New York City probation officer today while he's off the trail at Mar A Lago in Florida.
Trump's legal team is expected to submit their sentencing recommendation this week ahead of his July 11 sentencing date. Now, that probation meeting comes after a rally yesterday in 100 degree temperatures in Las Vegas, where Trump condemned his guilty verdict and he accused President Biden of weaponizing the American justice system. Since that verdict, Mr. Trump has repeatedly floated the idea of using a second term to exact revenge against his political enemies, even as some interviewers gave him the opportunity to soften his tone.
You know, the word revenge is a very strong word, but maybe we have revenge through success. But that's what I'd like to say. I want to see the country survive because this country's not going to survive like this. Well, revenge does take time.
I will say that it does. And sometimes revenge can be justified. Will you pledge to restore equal justice, equal application of our laws, end this practice of weaponization? Is that a promise you're going to make?
You have to do it, but it's awful. Look, I know you want me to say something else. I want you to say. Joining me now on set here is Tolu Olarpa, White House bureau chief of the Washington Post, Fast Shakur, senior advisor to Vermont Independent Senator Bernie Sanders, and Sarah Chamberlain, president and CEO of the Republican Main Street Partnership.
I thank you all for being here today. I'll start with you on this week. My colleague Matt Dixon here in NBC News talked to Trump's former attorney Ty Cobb about this revenge rhetoric put up on the screen what he had to say about this. I think there should be concern from a 30,000 foot view.
What I see is Trump angrier now than he was before because he is convicted now. Is what we're hearing from the four president something a message of this revenge language breaking through with voters. Well, what Tykov said is pretty interesting in part because Trump was pretty angry during his first term in office. He was impeached twice.
He had a lot of his policy goals flouted by the Democrats who took power and started investigating him. Now that he is a convicted felon, he is even more determined to go after his enemies. He's more determined to go after Joe Biden, the quote, unquote Biden crime family, and go after Democrats and prosecutors and people who have made his life miserable for the last couple of years. And so I do think that's breaking into it.
Some voters, some voters like that. A lot of our voters think that that takes us very far from what a president should be, not only the felon, but someone who's determined to seek revenge against his enemies. So we know who those voters are and who is that messaging breaking through with? Well, you have a number of voters that have started to stray away from the Republican Party Reagan Republicans, moderates, college educated Republicans who like the policies, they like the tax cuts, but they don't like the extremism.
They don't like the idea of, you know, a president going after his enemies with the Justice Department. And so some of those voters have started to stray even before this guilty verdict. And it could be even more of those voters, growing warriors continue to use this language. I'm going to ask you to weigh in here.
I want to play a little bit more sound though, from this is from the campaign trial yesterday in Las Vegas for president. They're talking about January 6th defendants. Let's listen to this. We're going to look very strongly at J6 those people.
There has never been people treated more horrifically than J6 hostages. Those J6 warriors, they were warriors, but they were really, more than anything else, they're victims of what happened. All they were doing is protesting a rigged election. That's what they were doing.
So Donald Trump has been a candidate for a decade or so now in one way or another. And so there are some people who may not be following day to day everything that's happening and everything that's being said. But what we do here, we do hear things like this. We hear some of the revenge language.
What's your impression of whether that's breaking through with part of the electorate? And it's going to be helpful there. So it's certainly going to be helpful with the Magaz. I mean, they're more fired up than ever to turn out to vote for him, to send money to him.
So that is working with them, the suburban women, which I would argue is going to decide this election. It's not really breaking through with them. They're kind of turned off. They don't really understand.
So I'm hoping that Trump will start to appeal to them, maybe tone it down just a little bit because as you said, they like the policies. They liked, you know, the tax cuts, everything that he did while he was president. They are going to decide this election. So be interesting to see how this moves forward.
All right, festival, turn to you and talk a little bit about President Biden here. First, I'm gonna play some of Mitch Landrew, the co chair for the Biden campaign, on MSNBC yesterday. Let's watch this. A guy that wants to be president, United States first, has to go sit down with his probation officer.
That is, that is just an astounding statement that sometimes people walk by. I don't think most Americans are going to walk by that at the end of the day. The president United States is a person who's supposed to have wisdom, character, judgment and who's supposed to reflect the best that America has to. And when you put these two men next to each other and the vision of the world and their characters, in my opinion, it's not much of a choice.
In fact, I think the word character is something that keeps coming up, particularly from members of the Biden campaign effort to get the president reelected here. Who is that messaging for? Is that the right messaging to be to have out there as an effort to win re election this idea of character or is it not one of Biden's strengths? For as long as I've been involved with his politics, ran a campaign against him, has been his character conviction.
People believe him to be a decent human being trying to do the right thing even when they disagree with him, trying to make honest judgments. And it is to this day one of the things that still while Republicans go after him in kind of meaning vicious terms, it doesn't stick quite as strongly with Biden because he's got a character. 40 years of people said that's a decease and human beings trying to do right, they might dispute with them because it works to his advantage. I think sometimes what I would struggle with with is he's going to speak to people who are angry and frustrated, want to see a fighting Joe Biden.
And that's where you see the Trump appeal to working class people who are angry. And when you're angry, the emotion that they're looking for is a little bit of I'm frustrated. And that's why Biden doesn't always have that emotion. I want to look at some other adjectives that have been considered when we look at these two candidates.
So particularly we have these numbers from the CBS YouGov poll that look at adjectives describing these candidates. In particular. Biden has better marks here. We talk about being compassionate, better marks than former President Trump, but that's it.
When you look at the list of adjectives on this list here, what's your takeaway from these numbers from the campaign? Leaning to this idea of character as something that's going to resonate with voters and be helpful to them. That is part of Joe Biden's story will win over some voters. But at this moment in our country, it seems like voters want someone who is effective, who is tough, who is willing to speak to the moment as fast as there are people who are angry, angry over the war in Gaza, angry over inflation and a president who's energetic and the fact, only 28% of Americans talk about Joe Biden in that kind of language.
That is a very difficult hell for Biden to get over. He really needs to show more energy. He really needs to show that he's fighting. And especially if he goes to a debate with Donald Trump in a couple of weeks, he really needs to show that he can take the fight to Donald Trump.
Otherwise it's going to be very difficult for him to turn around the situation. As you look at the campaign, though, as you talk about some of your sources, are we going to see that? Is that something that is in the offing for President Biden that the campaign is working on and figuring out how message you had? They have started to change their strategy a little bit.
They have started to go a bit more on offense. They have started to take the gloves off a little bit. Not as much as a number of people want to see. We have seen from President Biden, from his campaign even going to the courthouse in Manhattan a couple of weeks ago and speaking directly to Donald Trump situation, Joe Biden calling Donald Trump convicted felon.
They are starting to take the dogs off a little bit more. Whether that continues as we lead up to debate, that remains to be seen. I think that's something a lot of voters are looking for. Sarah, what you take shaking your head, is it something that's not happening or you don't see it coming?
So President Biden's not doing it enough. People are angry. That is why Trump is in a dead tie with President Biden. And what people see with Biden is he's not angry and he's old.
So if he could get fired up and show that he still has it, he might be able to get more people to turn to him. But that's why Trump is beating him. I mean, there's just no doubt about it. He looks boring and old.
And some of the times when we have seen Biden show that emotion have been some of his best. In particular, the two state of the unions, this last one, the one before he came out of them with pretty decent bumps out of them. And people feel like, hey, there's a president who's really fired up to maintain this job. I would argue that sometimes the staff random don't let him do off the record, just generally, general press interviews allow us to see a Biden who's, who's unscripted, who's off a teleprompter, who's giving you raw emotion and feeling.
We're so we become, you know, desensitized. To like a Biden who has that. And I think they gotta bring that back in this. But what about substance on this?
I mean, is it does that mean people are less concerned about hearing policy talk and they want, they want to feel something a little bit more from the candidate? I would argue one of the main substance areas that he's got to address is the economy. And if people don't feel strongly about the direction of the economy and feel like he's not from him steering, you got to tell them, here's what I'm trying to do, why I'm trying to make it better for you. Here's what I'm trying to address cost of living issues here.
I'm trying to bring down your gas prices here. I'm trying to make sure healthcare costs are affordable for your family. But the way in which you communicate that substances of a strength, of a desire to have this job for four more years, every day I wake up giving a damn about fighting for you. That's got to come through or he'll lose the debate.
All right, we'll leave there while he watching the debate coming up at the end of the month. Fast. Sarah, take off being here. Silicon the far right surges in Europe and dominates elections in France, prompting President Macron to dissolve his own parliament and call for new elections.
What it means for Europe and for the US that's ahead. I'll meet the PRESS now. And welcome back. We have election results out of Europe today where far right parties surged at the ballot box raising questions about the political trajectory of the continent.
In Europe's parliamentary elections, a record number of far right legislators won elections, although centrist parties are expected to hang on to the majority of 720 seats in the EU Parliament. Parliament. In France, though, the far right won by a landslide, with National Party candidates getting more than twice the support of candidates backed by President Manuel Macron. Macron was then rather than made the shocking decision to dissolve his own legislature and call for new elections.
And in Germany, Chancellor Olaf Scholz's Social Democrats posted their worst performance in decades, with the extreme right alternative for Germany party making notable gains. Joining me now from our London bureau is NBC News correspondent Danielle Amamjian from London Force now. So, Danielle, let's start with the European Parliament elections here. The center held, as we said, we did see these big gains on the far right, especially as we talk about France and Germany.
What can you tell us about this? How is this all going to matter? Well, short answer, as you said, the center right holds on to power. So that's, you know, it won't really affect the data support on the far left, on the far right.
This is a message to the political establishment in Brussels from voters who are saying your reality is disconnected from ours. What's on their minds? Migration, cost of living, inflation. It's not unique to one single party.
But, you know, European politics can be pretty complicated. Kind of makes you busy trying to understand it. But located in Brussels, 720 seats, and you've got various political groups which are sort of umbrella groups under which you've got political parties in Every single country. 27 countries.
You mentioned France. What a humiliating night. Tray Manuel Macron, a crushing defeat. His party coming in with 15% of the vote.
Far right parties combined received 40%. That's 4 in 10 people in France voting for far right, a party. You've got a landscape, a reality on the ground that is not reflected in the parliament in France. And so hence his decision to dissolve parliament.
It was, it stunned the country, quite frankly. Leading experts, analysts, bewildered. Some people are calling it political suicide. But he is daring the French people.
He's saying, I dare you to let this happen. At home. He didn't have to call elections. His position is safe until 2027.
That's when the next presidential elections will be. But we find ourselves in a position where in just a few weeks time, the opening of the Olympics in Paris, he could very well be next to a prime minister who is anti eu, anti immigration, stands for everything. He stands against everything he stands for. That doesn't be a first in French politics.
I am curious. You talk about anti EU and anti immigration. I do wonder what it was that seemed to drive these gains for the far right in the European Union parliament. Well, they have over the years.
I mean, like I said earlier, what was on the minds of these voters? Migration, a huge topic in Germany and France. Really. Cost of living, the farmers.
Farmers are a huge issue in, in Europe. All these, these environmental bills being passed by parliament. But as we say, big picture, center right stays holds on the power with gains on the far left and the far right. But thank you, Danielle.
All right, this continues now with Al Jackson. Hey, it's Kate Snow, NBC news anchor and host of the Drink this month. Demi Lovato is my guest. The global superstar tells me that she is the happiest she's ever been right now.
But getting there, it wasn't simple. Demi opens up about starting in Hollywood young and why she now thinks she may have started too soon. She talks about recovery, her new marriage and the deeply personal reason why behind her new cookbook, the Drink is always about the journey to the top, and this was an honest conversation about what that takes. Hope you'll listen and follow the Drink wherever you get your podcast.