Meet the Press NOW – May 2

If it's Thursday, order must prevail. That was President Biden's message to violent protesters as tensions escalate on more college campuses following a night of arrests and clashes at UCLA. Plus, hope for a breakthrough, as Israeli official tells NBC News that it believes Hamas will respond to the latest ceasefire and hostage deal today with Israeli forces poised for military action in southern Gaza. And new insights from voters across battleground America on the importance of the issue of abortion heading into November, with new polling and the latest installment of our NBC deciders focus group.

Hi there. Welcome to Meet the Press Now. I'm Ryan Nobles in Washington, where President Biden is condemning lawlessness on college campuses as some pro-Palestinian protests on these college campuses turned violent, and as the White House faces mounting political pressure over its handling of the Israel-Himos War. The president's remarks today where he also emphasized peaceful protests as a fundamental principle in this country come after hundreds were arrested early this morning at UCLA, as police moved in to clear the pro-Palestinian encampment on campus.

Police clashed with protesters who defied warnings to leave. We saw similar clashes between police and protesters at the University of Wisconsin yesterday and at Columbia where the NYPD cleared out a campus building occupied by demonstrators on Tuesday night. The scenes out of these schools stand in stark contrast with some other institutions where university officials have announced agreements with protesters to disband their encampments, including today at the University of Minnesota. Today was the first time the president Biden addressed the growing unrest on college campuses.

Vandalism, trespassing, breaking windows, shutting down campuses, forcing the cancellation of classes and graduations, none of this is a peaceful protest. Threatening people, intimidating people, instilling fair people is not a peaceful protest. It's against the law. The Senate is essential to democracy, but the Senate must never lead to disorder or to deny the rights of others so students can finish the semester and their college education.

I'll make no mistake, as President I will always defend free speech, and I will always be just as strong as standing up for the rule of law. Mr. Had the protest forced you to reconsider any of the policies from our region? No.

The president also criticized those who quote rush him to score political points from the protests and not so subtle jab at Republicans on Capitol Hill and his 24 rival Donald Trump, who have drawn attention to the situation while criticizing his administration's response. The president's unscheduled remarks this morning came after his advisers told NBC News that they believe campus tensions would flame out and that there was no upside for the president to weigh in publicly. And we do have new reporting today on how this issue could play in November, with new insight from a key voting block. Young voters comes from the latest installment of our series of NBC News deciders' focus groups in collaboration with Ignatius, Syracuse University, and Sago.

We heard from students at the University of Wisconsin, and while they're fired up about the Israel Hamas war, it didn't appear to change their thinking about the presidential election. This is the one issue in the news these days that concerns you the most. Google, let's start with you. Probably what's happening in Gaza and Israel attacks in Gaza.

Okay. Maxwell? The conflict in Israel and Gaza. Ryan?

The humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Suchda. The same. Angelina.

The same. Israel Palestine. Emma? Palestine as well.

Ethan? Israel Palestine. By the show of fingers, for whom in this group is the Israel Hamas war, this whole situation in Gaza, an issue that will have a major impact. And how you vote in November.

We'll say it's going to have a major impact on how you vote November. None of you. Really? Okay.

Ford, you said this was your top issue that's concerning you right now. And it's not going to have an impact on how you vote. Cooper, explain why not. I think as the issue stands right now, again, I don't think Biden is doing a great job.

I don't think Trump would do a better job. So when it comes to like the actual election itself, unless something, which I'm sure will happens between now and November. As it stands, I can't see it. See it changing how I vote.

Yeah. Same. I don't feel like either of them would really handle it. In a way that I would like them to handle it.

So it's not really a factor. Okay. So basically, just so I understand this, you've got to clarify this for me. You're unhappy with the way Biden's handling it.

You have no confidence Trump would do a better job. It's kind of a wash. So other issues will rise up because this one just, you're not going to see a way forward either one. Am I reading that right?

Yes. Joining now from UCLA's campus is NBC's den Griffin and NBC's Monica Elba. Is it the White House or Dana? Let's start with you.

Tell us what the mood's like there after all that action last night. Yeah, Ryan, just take a look behind me. This is the cleanup effort that's going on right now. Now, you can see that that encampment that was taking over this entire quad outside Royce Hall is now pretty much cleaned up.

We saw crews dismantling tents. You've got these big front loaders that were putting piles of garbage inside these moveable disposal bins. Right now the campus is closed. Students are taking their classes online.

So we haven't seen many here on campus. There was one group that I spoke to earlier. They say they came here to clean up the graffiti. That's on the Royce Hall building behind me.

But UCLA told them that they cannot put up signs. They said we're taking down the signs for this group. Your signs have to come down as well. That group has since left.

Brian. So what comes next after all these protests at UCLA? Are they committed to rebuilding the encampment? Do they feel that this is over for now?

Yeah, so 200 plus protesters have been arrested. We are told that they say this is not the end. We don't know what their plans are next. But they say that they are not stopping.

We still have not heard from UCLA on their stance to what has happened today and what the plan is moving forward. They plan to address that later today at a press conference. And we hope to learn more then. But how this is going to play out in the next several days and weeks remains to be seen.

Ryan. Yeah, because there's so much going on there, right? We're heading close to a commencement wrapping up of the semester final exams. Is there even any kind of sense?

Or will you learn more about if there's a willingness by the administration to actually negotiate and deal with these protesters and listen to their demands? We don't have any indication yet at this point. We hope to learn more information. I think right now the main focus is cleaning up.

You've got the clues behind us. You might hear some tapping behind me. That's you may have heard of this large display screen that was on campus displaying images from the October 7th Hamas attack. And so that structure is now coming down behind us.

So right now the focus is safety making sure that they get this area cleaned up and get their graffiti off the building here on Royce Hall. This is one of the four original buildings here on the campus of UCLA that was built back in 1920s. So they're trying to restore peace and calm here. And those protesters that were arrested, they face misdemeanor charges.

They were cited or were told they're going to be cited and ultimately released. And Ryan, we may see them back on this campus as soon as next week. All right, Dan Griffin with the latest from the ground in Los Angeles. So let's go to the White House now in Monica Alba.

Monica, we didn't think we'd hear directly from President Biden. The statement got added to a schedule late this morning. Went into the thinking beyond just a written statement and an address of the protesters. Why did he decide to do it in person?

Well, we knew for days, Ryan, that they were weighing and debating whether the president should come out and offer remarks like he did earlier today. And the calculus was the decisions here should be left up to university leadership and whether local law enforcement is going to come in and remove those encampments and the way that we've seen from New York to Los Angeles and some places in between in the last couple of days. It suggested that the White House again wanted to allow that to take place without weighing in beyond saying that protest that is peaceful and lawful is okay and anything that veers into the violent or anti-Semitic is not. But really it was President Biden who hadn't offered any kind of a formal stance on this.

It was just his top spokespeople. So overnight when we did see some of those other really striking images, that video of some of the clashes between students and police, I'm told that those images, which the president referenced earlier today, stood out enough to say this is the moment where it's untenable for the president not to say something about this. And again, it's not like he made news in that speech. He didn't offer something new on the White House position, but it was clear that because he was going to be traveling to North Carolina today on an event that's related to infrastructure and lead pipes, that he was going to be peppered with questions no matter what, so they thought they needed to get out ahead of it and answer some of that because it is certainly what everybody is talking about around the country and it seems that almost everyone has some kind of a connection to it or opinion on it, so it was a moment for the president to address some of that, right?

That reads to me, Monica, like I feel they're a little bit on the defensive here. Are they worried that these images that everyone is watching all across the country could impact his standing, especially if the protests continue? It's certainly something that is being considered, and remember that it was even some Democratic allies of the president who had suggested he should be out front on this, and that he should comment and offer some public remarks, and then yesterday it was former president Donald Trump, who amped up some of his criticism of the current administration and the White House is pushing back very intensely on politics, playing a role in the president's decision to come out and speak today saying that the president was not impacted by what the former president said, but we all know that throughout this entirety of this process and these months long back and forth about what is going to happen with the Israel and Hamas war, that the president does have an issue and area of concern when it comes to some young voters who have said that they firmly reject how he has approached this and the U.S. policy in Gaza, so that's something they're aware of, but when they do look at polling, they cite, and honestly that focus group you played in the introduction backs this up, that even if young people have concerns about this, they rank it lower in terms of whether it will impact their decision on how they're going to vote in November.

So the president's aides are really focusing on that, saying that this isn't something that young people rank as any top, second or third decision in terms of how they're going to make up their minds about who to support in November. Ryan. Okay, Monica, outside the White House, Monica, thank you for that, and as Monica just mentioned, and we mentioned earlier students at the University of Wisconsin spoke to our deciders focus group saying that the Israel Hamas war likely wouldn't change how they vote. They also largely expressed support for the campus protests over the war and explained why they feel so strongly.

Who supports those protests? Six of you do. Ryan, tell me why. Because if the politicians in power aren't listening or following what we want, then that's a good way to get word out of, hey, this needs to change.

Ryan. Got it. Okay. That's a different reason why you support the protest.

Switch it up. I've mostly been seeing the ones that are happening on campus, and I think it's completely unfair for students who are being tuition and not have a say in where their money goes, especially if it's going to fund Israel's claims. So that's from a more, like, class to level, but on a bigger scale, it's just indiscriminate bombing and war, and the deaths have just not been equal on both sides. How are these protests helping the people of Gaza?

Emma, how are they helping the people of Gaza? I just believe that they're amplifying the people in Gaza and they're spreading weren't where it is. And the other way they're helping the people in Gaza? Well?

I would say that the protests are also sort of demonstrating to the presidential candidates that there is a very large desire for the U.S. government to step in in some way. Joining me now is NBC News Washington correspondent Eviche Alcindor, Democratic poster Cornell Belcher. He's also an NBC News political analyst, Danielle Pekka, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.

She's also an NBC News contributor. So you meet your point person on this focus group. You listened in. You've got a firsthand look at what these young people are saying.

They seem as though they're very concerned about the situation with Israel and Hamas. They support these protests, but it's not quite enough for them to say I'm not going to vote for Joe Biden, at least not at this point. Well, it was really interesting. A number of these, I would say, almost like a majority of these young independent voters from Wisconsin, a very specific group, we should say, so that Israel and Hamas in the war and the President's handling of it was their top issue when they thought of the election and thought of their politics.

But then when we push a little bit and said, well, are you going to really vote on this issue? To a tee, they said, essentially, that even if they didn't like the way that Joe Biden was handling it, President Biden is handling it, they don't think that former President Trump is going to do a better job in their minds. They think President Trump is going to continue the U.S. policies.

They might even be more harsh on his criticism of the people in Gaza. So it was really interesting. I think they care so much about this issue, but they also, I think, in some ways, very clear about the idea that they don't think U.S. policy is going to change on that.

I also think it's really interesting that as we were talking to them about this, they said that they visited the encampments because a lot of the students, if not all of the students that we talked to, they're college students. They said, we went, I've supported these encampments, but they were also very scared of getting arrested. So there was also sort of that realization that, yes, they are people who support the cause, but they don't want to go as far as to sort of put their own futures on the line in their minds. They said that they were scared about not graduating and stuff like that.

But it tells you in some ways that this might not hurt Joe Biden on this issue, even though I should say, this, the number of students here that said that they were going to vote for Joe Biden votes two, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, it was seven? Six said they wouldn't vote at all. So let's also remember in Wisconsin, six of them are saying, I'm going to stay at home but it's a two-way race. That could still hurt Joe Biden.

Yeah, so Danny, I want to go to you on this because you're a foreign policy scholar, so you kind of understand this, but maybe better than any of them. And to Yamiche's point, they feel like there isn't really that much of a difference between Trump and Biden when it comes to Middle East foreign policy. Maybe Trump would be even a little bit worse. Do they have an accurate assessment of this?

Well, I don't know if I would use the word worse. I'm reluctant to extrapolate from the views of 16 college students. I mean, I think that the bigger question, which I would love to hear you answer is, are they actually going to vote at all? Because of course, that's the big thing with young people.

But from the standpoint of how they assess the two leaders, no, and this is a real challenge to the president, not, again, based on these kids necessarily, but based on a larger question of if there's the two of them are indistinguishable, if Donald Trump is only going to be more pro-Israel, Joe Biden is pro-Israel, Donald Trump is more pro-Israel, and none of them are going to respond to the, I would say, fairly broad concerns generationally of the president being quote unquote genocide Joe. Then what the answer is going to be is you're going to stay away. You're not going to be satisfied. Just one little footnote.

The number of people who vote the way Danny, I think, so they ought to vote on foreign policy questions. It's very small. It's just asymptotic, it's zero. That's like a sweet election, it's what you're saying.

So, but, you are the person to weigh in on this. And to Yamiche's point, seven say, yeah, probably not going to impact my vote, but six say it's enough to keep me home. And in a state like Wisconsin, is six saying that they're not going to stay home? Is that trouble for the Biden campaign?

It depends on which six things, right? I think these were independent voters, which has posed to look more democratic voters. And I think this is more problematic among, quite frankly, progressive young voters, right? These are independent voters.

But among more progressive young voters, if six out of ten progressive young voters stay home, it does mean you lose with, it does mean you lose with Wisconsin. Donald Trump has not moved his number dramatically in Wisconsin from 2016 to last election in 2020. The difference is, when you look at voters, those young voters, Biden was about six points better than Hillary Clinton was in Wisconsin among young voters. And Hillary Clinton was off of Barack Obama's percentage margin among those young voters by almost the exact percentage of them who broke third party in 2016.

That is a real threat to Biden in some of these battleground states is do these voters, like you said, do they break third party or they sit home? I think it is a problem. So, to Danny's point, there are many labeling him, genocide Joe right now. Is there anything from a policy perspective that can change that perception between now and November?

Would a permanent ceasefire be enough or is that too big then? Well, I think you do have to push for a ceasefire, but at the same time, from a campaign perspective, I think why I saw some of the many of these voters and these folks' groups back off from it, because it's not a winning contrast. It's not like Donald Trump, it will be dramatically different or better for them on this issue. So to a certain extent, it becomes neutralizing.

But yes, my god, look, we do need a ceasefire in the Middle East. If we also just look at this, it's sort of underscores that Donald Trump is a gifted Joe Biden if he's looking at progressive voters, because even if they get mad at the president, when they look across as who they could vote for, they say, well, I clearly can't do that, and I clearly can't vote for Trump. And I've heard that, not only with these focus voters, but I heard that in Philly when I was talking to Black Muslims for a story there. I heard that among Black pastors in Georgia when I went there.

So there is this issue that if you hear people maybe the first few minutes, they're like, yes, Joe Biden's terrible. But then if you push and you push, okay, but who are you going to vote for? They even say Joe Biden here, I'm going to sit at home. They never say Trump.

They might report it. That's the case Bernie Sanders is making, right? He's not just breaking into the Democratic Party for the past couple of presidential cycles. He's arm and arm with Joe Biden right now making that exact case that Donald Trump is an existential threat.

So therefore he can't afford to stay home. So Gannie, these independent voters, and I don't, this focus where they describe themselves as independent, I don't know if it's- Yeah, if we would traditionally view them as such. But there are a significant swath of independent voters out there that are watching all this play out. Maybe they're not necessarily directly paying attention to the protest or state, but just the chaos in general, this sense of instability in the country.

How big of a problem is that for Joe Biden? I think in so far, and again you're asking me a question that's probably a bit of an ask of Cornell but I'll answer it anyway. What the heck? But look, insofar as it underscores a general sense that things aren't going in the right direction, right?

You're not really handling the economy the way I want. You're not really handling crime the way I want. You're really not handling immigration, which for many older voters is the number one issue. Insofar as it underscores that, I think it is dangerous for the president, and it's hard for him to answer the mail, not just on his repel sign, obviously, but also on all of these other issues.

So you answered that just as this going out? Well, thank you. You guys are going to come back. So we're going to have more opportunities to answer.

So you guys, stick around. We're going to have a more conversation coming up from our deciders focus group as well. We're going to hear more from them, that group of battleground voters, on these other key issues, abortion, and how it could sway their vote at the bell box come November. But first, the latest on the ceasefire and hostage negotiations after Hamas sent a high-level delegation to Cairo to potentially seal a deal.

You're watching the press now. Welcome back. As we continue to monitor college campus protests over the Israel-Homeless War, we're also keeping an eye on the Middle East. And Israeli officials tell NBC News that government officials believe Hamas will likely respond today to a proposed ceasefire deal.

The proposed agreement would have Hamas released 33 hostages in exchange for a 40-day ceasefire, and the release of potentially thousands of Palestinian prisoners. This all comes after Secretary of State Lincoln's visit to the region earlier this week, in which he urged Hamas to accept the agreement which he described as generous. NBC News' international correspondent, Ross Sanchez, has the latest from Tel Aviv. All day Israel and the world, frankly, have been waiting for Hamas' response to the current ceasefire proposal that's on the table.

It's a proposal the U.S. says is incredibly generous to Hamas. It would see Hamas releasing 33 hostages from the so-called humanitarian category, women, children, the elderly, people with serious medical conditions, and in return, Israel agreeing to a 40-day ceasefire and the release of potentially thousands of Palestinian prisoners. Now, Israel thought that response was likely to come today, but as the hours ticked by, there has been no definitive answer from Hamas.

The White House was asked earlier, does the United States expect a response today? John Kirby, the spokesman for National Security Council, said, frankly, the U.S. does not know. We did get a statement from Hamas saying that the political leader of the group, Ismail Hanyye, had spoken to the head of Egyptian intelligence, one of the key mediators, throughout these ceasefire talks.

And Hamas told the Egyptians that they would send negotiators to Egypt as soon as possible to complete the ongoing discussions with the aim of maturing an agreement. Now, I've read a lot of Hamas statements since October 7th. The tone of that is positive in the sense that one, they feel that there is enough we're talking about, that they're sending their delegation back to Cairo, and two, they are talking about the possibility of completing an agreement. But it does also suggest that Hamas is not preparing to give a definitive answer one way or another at this time.

Now, we did hear from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu early on today. He acknowledged there are divisions in the Israeli government about the way forward. Some members of the far right of his cabinet are saying this is a terrible deal. People should ignore it and should instead push ahead with an attack on the city of Rafa.

More moderate voices inside the war cabinet are saying Rafa can wait, and that the priority right now is to get those remaining surviving hostages out of Gaza. Just to illustrate the scale of divisions inside of Netanyahu's cabinet, the far right national security minister earlier called for the defense minister to be fired. There's no indication that Prime Minister Netanyahu is going to act on that, but it really shows the strains right now inside of the Israeli government. Netanyahu also under pressure from protesters who have been taking those streets here in Tel Aviv and in Jerusalem demanding a deal and also from the United States, which says it does not support an Israeli attack on the city of Rafa, unless there is a credible plan to get those million plus Palestinian civilians sheltering there out of harm's way.

Back to you. Okay. That's Ross Sanchez in Tel Aviv. Joining me now is Aaron David Miller, a former State Department analyst and a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

So first, Aaron, we were told that Hamas was going to respond to this proposal today. It seems like we're encroaching very near the end of today. Is that potentially a bad sign or a good sign in terms of whether or not we can see a ceasefire in the near future? Ryan, thanks for having me.

You know, from my experience in Arab Israelis, Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, they usually have two speeds, slow and slower. And I think there is absolutely no way the principal Palestinian decision-maker is not as Melania. It's Yahya Sinwar, who's ensconced in a tunnel, 20, 30 meters below ground in Kanyunis and Rafa, maybe even in Sinai with hostages. What Hanyou, I'm sorry, what Sinwar wants to do on this is unclear.

An objective analyst might argue that he thinks he's winning. He's got tunnels, he's got hostages, and he's trading these two things for time. In the expectation, hope that pressure from the international community, the US, the Arab world will continue to grow, and he'll be able to improve his offer. So I think there's no way to know.

The fact, and I think Raf got exactly right, I think Hamas is coming back to Cairo, but I suspect it's to try to improve the offer that the Israelis have made. And since Secretary of State Tony Blinken has said that, quote, the Israeli offer is extremely generous, unquote. It's hard to see how much flexibility the US would have to entertain Hamas demands and to see if the Israelis would accept them. So bottom line here, it's so opaque, I think it's impossible to know.

I wonder, and it's a great point you make about the time that Hamas believes it has on its side. You may be paying attention to what's going on in this country, on these college campuses, with that influence decision like this, to maybe try and sweeten the pot even more if they see the type of unrest, and that the president himself is forced to address it? I'm not sure the campus protests would be on the top of Hamas's pressure points. What might be is the reports, credible reports that the international criminal board was considering issuing arrest warrants for the prime minister, the minister of defense and the chief of staff.

Nothing focuses, prime ministers, nothing now is mine more than on that issue. So I think pressures are building on these rallies, I think they've improved their offer. But again, there's no real urgency here. I don't think Hamas is in a hurry.

I don't think the government of Israel is in a hurry. I think the party that's in a hurry is the Biden administration for understandable reasons. So to that point, the prime minister has said that Israel is going to go into Rafa regardless of a deal. If that's the case, is there any way Hamas would agree?

Again, it really depends on what's in our calculation. You could argue on one hand, he wants to preempt a Rafa operation because A, there are four Hamas brigades down there, and he doesn't want them destroyed. But on the other, a major Israeli operation into Rafa, regional population 300,000, now 1.2, 1.3 million Palestinians, a major Israeli ground campaign without sufficient regard to moving people to sanctuaries where they have potable water, shelter, access to medical care. That's going to be a tremendous propaganda advantage to Hamas if in fact the Israelis move in and you see an exponential rise in Palestinian death.

So it's hard to know how Rafa comports in the key decision makers mind. And then finally, do you think that Hamas has a deadline here? How long will Israel be willing to wait on this proposal? I think that the Israelis will wait and continue to threaten to move on Rafa as a pressure point.

I don't think Senoir is in a hurry. I think that delegation is returning to Cairo as an act of quote unquote good faith with a number of additional demands that they want in the agreement. That would be my read. So I think we're a ways away still from what you and I and one will human would describe as a breakthrough.

Yeah. And then in these type of talks, as you point out here in David Miller, slow and slower. So thank you so much for that perspective. We appreciate it, sir.

Thanks for having me. Up next, Trump Trial Day 10. We're live outside the courthouse where the former president faces new allegations by prosecutors that he violated his gag order. You're watching to beat the press now.

Welcome back. Testimony just wrapped up for the day in Donald Trump's hush money trial. Juris have been hearing from Douglas Dallas, a current forensic analyst with Manhattan DA's office who analyzed two of Michael Cohen's phones. Earlier, Keith Davidson, Stormy Daniels, and Karen McDougal's former lawyer was back on the stand testifying about his interactions with Michael Cohen tied to the alleged hush money payments made to Stormy Daniels.

Davidson also testified that he texted the editor in chief of the National Enquirer quote, what have we done in the early morning hours of the 2016 election? During cross-examination, Mr. Trump's attorneys tried to undermine Davidson's credibility by suggesting he had taken part in extortion schemes tied to other celebrity scandals. Davidson denied those allegations.

The testimony followed a second hearing on the alleged gag order violations by Mr. Trump. Prosecutors say he violated the order several additional times that weren't part of last week's hearing which resulted in a $9,000 fine against the former president and a warning of potential jail time if he kept violating the order. I'm joined now by NBC News correspondent Rehima Ellis who's outside the courthouse in Manhattan, also with me is Dan Horowitz, a former assistant district attorney in Manhattan.

So Rehima, just break down the highlights of Keith Davidson's testimony from today. One of the things I thought was important today with Keith Davidson on the stand when he was directly examined by the prosecution is the prosecution is attempting to blunt what might be criticism coming from the defense when they say where is Donald Trump's name on any piece of paper that's sending money over to Stormy Daniels on direct examination what the prosecution did sign glass says to Davidson who is accepting these funds if you will on behalf of David Denison. David Denison was a pseudonym for Donald Trump and he said essential consultants which was what Michael Cohen was doing and then they go on to say well who signed the agreement on behalf of David Denison. Davidson, Keith Davidson the attorney says Michael Cohen Esquire so what we have here is that the the prosecution is putting it out front before the defense comes back and say uh Donald Trump's name is not on that paper on that paper is Michael Cohen's name and it's a strategy as they put the pieces together for this puzzle to try and link Michael Cohen not to do something on his own but to doing it on behalf of Donald Trump Ryan.

Rehima we keep talking about this gag order does it seem like Judge Mershan is likely to impose additional fines on the former president for violating that gag order? Well we don't know but the judge certainly was very interested in listening to the arguments on both sides today about what shooters should not be done. I should mention to you also that what came up after the judge had listened to the arguments the defense came back to the judge and said well we have several articles we're interested of lawyers and others who are criticizing potential witness etc and wondering if they can be reposted and judge we would like you to review all of those articles and make a decision. The judge basically said absolutely no way I'm not going to police this like that instead what you need to do is you make a decision if it seems dubious you might want to leave it out.

Okay Rehima Ellis outside the courthouse we appreciate it. Thank you Rehima let's go to Dan Horwitz now and talk more about what we saw in court today. So Dan from your perspective do you think Keith Davidson was an effective witness for the prosecution? I do I mean I do because what you have to remember is we focus you know recently who's on the stand what have they said but the jurors I mean in some ways they're like sponges right they've heard everything so they listen to two or three days of David Packer and how he had meetings with the president and discussions with the president and Michael Cohen about catch and kill and so David since testimony fits within that context and jurors are going to remember that they're going to evaluate what they heard today from Keith Davidson in the context of what they heard from David Packer.

So I think that you have to bear in mind that you can't just listen to a witness in isolation you have to listen to the witness in the context of all the other evidence that's been presented so far. One thing though that did stand out is that Keith Davidson refused to categorize the payments to stormy Daniels as hush money payments is that's just a term that we're using to describe all this in the media or could it undermine the case at all to the jurors that we're listening? Well look I think and this is a central point of the defense right which is you've got several witnesses and I think Packer probably handled himself with a little bit more a plum than maybe Davidson did on the stand from what I understand but you know these are people who traffic you know in the lowest of the low gossip about porn stars gossip about affairs with celebrities so you're not exactly talking about people who are in the mainstream and so yes I agree that to the extent that Keith Davidson who appears to have a law practice where he's engaged in these kinds of transactions routinely on behalf of clients who are reaching quote unquote settlements with with celebrities and well-known public figures it's not surprising to me that he's going to say oh no no no I'm not engaged in a hush money business um but that's a central point that the defense is trying to make that that's exactly who they are and and that you cannot rely on them that they are not trustworthy or credible witnesses because look at what they do and I guarantee you when either a meal over Susan necklace or Todd Lance gets up in their summation they're gonna reference they'll remind the jury and remember Keith Davidson tried to tell you oh no I'm not involved in hush money payments that's not me. Well it's becoming a regular habit of the former president to walk out of the courtroom after a long day and just say kind of wild legal theories that aren't necessarily based in any sort of reality he did that again today he said that he would attempt to appeal the gag order and that he would not be able to testify as a result of the gag order so I need a legal expert here to try and sort this out for me.

Can he appeal the gag order and is there any universe where that would make him unable to testify? So first of all if they tell people and this is particularly a case with Donald Trump you cannot stop somebody from filing a lawsuit if they want to. The question is does it have merit will the court listen to it and the answer is not in this particular case you'll probably if he doesn't file this special kind of lawsuit called an article 78 and I'll say that his rights are being abused then the court of appeals the first Department of Health Division is going to do what they've done so far with everything else give it the back of the hand with respect to whether he's going to testify now that's the more interesting thing because I don't think there's any way that Donald Trump is ever going to testify and he's looking for all sorts of excuses to tell the public I really want to tell my story I really want to testify but it's a rigged game and I got a gag order and the dog ate my homework and here's why I end up not testifying at the end of the day. But there's nothing preventing him from doing that he's just using this as an excuse.

Oh absolutely that's absolutely right. All right terrific analysis Dan Horwitz thanks so glad we had you on. Thanks a lot. And after the break I'm heading to the big board to break down some brand new swing state polling data on the issue of abortion is Arizona's governor officially repealed and your total ban on the procedure don't go anywhere you're watching with the president.

I want to thank the legislators and the reproductive freedom advocates who are standing here with me today without you this would not have been possible and thank you to every Arizona who spoke up and made their voice heard calling for a repeal of this draconian ban. Hey welcome back that was Arizona's governor Key Hobbs moments ago signing into law a repeal of the state's controversial 1864 abortion ban. It's important to note that the repeal won't take effect until 90 days after the state's legislative session ends so that near total ban on abortions will likely be in effect in Arizona for some period of time and this of course comes as abortion is set to be a major issue in the 2024 presidential race. Take a look right now abortion rights supporters are aiming to take the issue directly to voters.

Three states have already passed measures to expand access on the ballot with another eight working to get the ballot to get it on the ballot in November. And today we got new numbers from an extensive survey of more than 20,000 people across all 50 states that was conducted throughout the last year and it shows that nearly two-thirds of Americans believe that abortion should be legal in all or most cases and that's not all. Look at the party breakdown not surprisingly the vast majority of Democrats say that abortion should be legal but among independents that number is 67 percent that's more than two-thirds and among Republicans it's closer to one-third and these battleground states the support for legal abortion is at 60 percent or more in all of them and more than two-thirds in three of them. So how important is this issue for voters in November?

Well, very one-third of Americans said that they would only vote for a candidate who shares their views on abortion and as you can see the issue is more critical for Democrats than it is for Republicans which is seemingly why President Biden is leaning into abortion and reproductive rights to fire up his base. Among the voters the president is looking to drive to the polls, young people. We talked to some of those young people in battleground Wisconsin about the issue as part of our NBC Deciders focus group. Take a look.

By the show fingers for how many of you will abortion be a big factor in who you vote for in November's presidential election? A big factor. Seven of you. Ethan, in what way?

I personally don't want to able to not vote for any candidate that is anti-abortion. I feel like it should be a woman's choice and it should be the government should be voicing what we can and what we can't do with our own bodies. I show it fingers. Who would say that former President Trump is at least partially responsible for Roe v.

Wade being overturned by the Supreme Court? Seven of you. Cooper, in what way? When he was in office the people that he chose to do positions to elect on the Supreme Court and on the Supreme Court overturned by the way, so it was just like the radical effect.

Is that the other person you're going to say? Based on who Trump chose? Okay. So we're going to dig deeper into just how critical the issue of abortion could be in the race for the White House with our team of political experts right after the break.

You're watching with the president. Welcome back and we just showed you and you heard from our focus group of young voters and just how salient the issue of abortion is for them. So let's dig in and talk about this back with me. Yamiche Alcindor, Cornell Belcher, and Danielle Pletka.

So Yamiche, we were talking before about how the issue with Hamas and Israel is very central to these voters. They care about it, but not necessarily in Decider. Seems like a different story with abortion. That's right.

When it came to abortion, over and over again, these young voters said that that was an issue that not only they felt strongly about was an issue that would impact how they voted and the majority of them were in favor of abortion rights and were in favor of backing Joe Biden because they saw him as more of a supporter of abortion rights. And of course, a number of them also directly blamed Donald Trump, who of course was the person who nominated in a point of the justices who ultimately went to overturn Roe v. Wade. So that was an issue that was salient for them, an issue that was poignant, and definitely top of mind.

Yeah, so Cornell, obviously the Biden campaign knows that. They've been very much a little vague. I'm going to play a new ad that they put out just today. If Donald Trump is elected, that is the end of a woman's right to choose.

There will be no place to turn. We could lose our rights in every state, even the ones where abortion is currently legal. And that means every woman in every state is at risk. Donald Trump took away our freedom.

We need leaders that will protect our rights and not take them away. And that's Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. And it was subtle. If you saw the states they were taking through there, all of them.

It's an important issue. Look, and I've talked about this at this very desk. There's a difference between what people say is their top issue concerned and actually what's a mobilizing issue. What we've seen is, and we saw this going into the last election cycle, is, you know, economy is always going to be top of voters' minds of their issue.

But this is an issue that we absolutely are able to galvanize and mobilize, especially younger voters, the Democrats, particularly me, but also move certain swing borders. There's a certain large percentage of even Republicans who may not be for abortion, but don't like the ideal of government taking that right away. And again, it is a really important issue to wedge against Donald Trump and hopefully move some of those younger voters back towards time. We just show these numbers.

Only 36 percent of voters in our latest poll, the PRI poll, say they vote for a candidate. I should say they would only vote for a candidate who shares their views on abortion. 47 percent of Democrats, 34 percent of Republicans. Should these numbers worry the Trump campaign?

Is there a way that they can combat this? I think they do worry the Trump campaign. The president came out, former president came out very clearly and said that he believed this was up to the states, that he didn't support a federal law banning abortion at a particular, a particular, after a particular period of time. So I think it's on their minds.

The question really is how to handle it for the pro-life movement. We've all said this before. It's a little bit like the dog that catches the car and doesn't know what to do with it. And I think for a lot of people in the pro-life movement, the question is, what are your next steps?

What do you want to do? And how do you make a counter case to the American people? It's going to be a challenge. What's complicated this is that we've seen these consequences of Roe v.

Wade being overturned cascade throughout the country. You had in Alabama IVF being paused. You have other states like Florida, which is now I think the most populous state that has a six week beyond most abortions. So there is this continuous reminder.

It's not like something that happened two years ago and then stuck and stopped. It's something that they're talking about all the time. And the key thing is someone who follows a lot of what Vice President Kamala Harris is saying is she's really underscoring personal stories. And she's really underscoring the idea that there could be a federal ban, which really, really scares a lot of women.

Because you might feel comfortable if you're a woman who is in favor of abortion rights, if you live in New York or some other place. But when they start saying, well, actually this could affect you, that really they're hoping mobilizes voters. And the big interview that Trump really recently did where he talked about monitoring women and their reproduction, reproduction, that doesn't help. That's pretty scary stuff.

So Kunal, you said before, though, the thing that worries you the most for Democrats are third party voters. And I want to play a little bit of what the focus group had to say about that. Josh, why is RK Jr. attracted to you?

He just seems out of the three to be more libertarian and a lot less controversial. I think he has a chance to be a lot less divisive and radical than the other two and more competent, maybe. Angelina, tell me why RK Jr. is attracted to you.

I don't really know the other two. Also, Joe Biden and Trump also both have chances already and they're not doing so hot. Hunter, what about you? What's attractive about RK Jr?

For me, it's because he seems more level-headed and middle of the road, plus he's the only candidate that I've actually seen discuss housing prices and my generation's issue with that. And then he's the only one I've heard from numerous co-workers that tell me about policies that he would put in place and stuff like that. He's not Biden. He's not Trump.

I think both presidents have done some bad for this country. So I'd like to see what a non-Democrat or Republican president can do. So with all due respect to those voters, it seems like they don't know very much about RK Jr. No, that's right.

That's part of the traction. And we've seen that in our own data, too, where a Lars Roth of those who were taking the third party off, did JFK Jr. Actually, RK Jr. RK Jr.

They're not familiar with him, but they just dislike the two choices that we have right now. But let me, I'm going to live on this and say, at some point during the campaign season, I'm kind of feeling that we're going to define him and they're not going to be so crazy about where he's going to be the person that's working to define him the most right now, Danny, is Donald Trump. He's the one that's been attacking RK Jr. more than anybody.

Right. Well, I think Donald Trump weirdly has actually figured out what RFK stands for, unlike these people who seem to be candidates on the dating game. I don't like that guy. I'm door number one.

I'm door number two. I guess I'll take door number three. But Trump has figured out correctly that the sort of anti-vax that really RK represents as his core issue is actually dangerous to him. Can I quickly say, in a two-way race, seven people said they would vote for Biden, but when you took it to a five-way race, three people would vote for Biden, and seven would vote for RK.

So just the numbers there tell you that it looks like RFK just because they don't know that much, but they do know the name Kennedy, kind of know the name Kennedy, maybe with these young voters that hurt Biden more than it hurt Trump in this case. And one of the most important things to keep in mind that even low information voters, their vote counts just as much as someone that pays very, very close. There's no more about him soon. All right.

All right. Great conversation, everybody. I thank you all for being here and spending the whole hour with me. I really appreciate it.

Yamiche Cornell, Danielle. I appreciate all being here. I'll be back tomorrow with more Meet the Press Now, but the news continues with Hallie Jackson right now.