Meet the Press NOW — October 3

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I'm Gabe Gutierrez reporting in Washington where we are watching history in the making as House Speaker Kevin McCarthy's political fate is hanging by a thread. Right now the House is about to vote on removing him as Speaker. If successful, it will be the first time in American history that a House Speaker, the second in line for the presidency after the Vice President, has been removed by a vote of their House colleagues. The last-hour House Republicans have been delivering emotional statements on the floor ahead of the vote, with McCarthy's critics defending their move to Alston, arguing that he broke his promises to the conference.

McCarthy's defenders in leadership have fired back praising his record while warning of the chaos that will come. If the effort to Alston is successful, this was all set in motion after last night a member of McCarthy's own party, Congressman Matt Gates brought the motion to the floor seeking to Alston. What followed was a scramble by McCarthy to save his speakership today, including a vote in the past hour seeking to pause the effort, which failed, 208 to 2018, with 11 Republicans joining Democrats and voting against the motion to table the resolution to House McCarthy. Right now, these six House Republicans have said they will vote to House McCarthy, and if enough Democrats join them, and we expect them to, it will throw the House into an unprecedented state of turmoil with no leader and no clear successor for McCarthy.

And as his senior Capitol Hill correspondent Garrett Hake joins me now, and Garrett voting has just begun. That's right, Gabe. Voting is underway now, and this process will look familiar to anyone who paid attention to the Speaker's race vote back in January. They'll follow the same pattern here with a reading clerk going main by name through the House roster and members having to stand and have their vote counted each one at a time by name.

This was something that the Speaker himself requested. Be done for this vote. It speaks to the gravity of the situation. And much like in that situation, we will know, when we reach a certain point, whether there are enough Republican no votes here, essentially, to cast McCarthy aside.

That's because all Democrats are expected to stay in line with the King Jeffries and the caucus's decision from this morning that this is a Republican problem, and the Republicans are going to have to solve it for themselves. Jeffries made very clear that this is not something where Democrats are going to intervene, other than to vote against Speaker McCarthy, who may see us functionally not that different from any other, you know, Trump supporting conservative Republican, who they believe they can't trust. And Gabe, that's not for lack of trying. My colleagues, Ali Vitale and Ryan Nobles and I, who are reporting on an outreach effort, even by individual Republicans, to individual Democratic members, to their friends, trying to peel off votes, get someone to vote, no on the motion of AKA, get somebody to vote present, to lower the threshold, to do anything to help McCarthy.

But it appears that this Speaker, who has survived so many close escapes in his nine-month tenure in the job, nearly ten-month tenure in the job now, may be out of escape hatches from which the next of this situation did. And Garrett, as we look at those live pictures, that is some new reporting, some recent outreach by those individual House members to their Democratic counterparts. You mentioned some of this already, but walk us through this day. You're talking about Jeffries, you know, saying that the Democrats would not help to save McCarthy, but when the day began, that was still an open question, right?

We didn't know that until about midday today. It was very much an open question. In fact, we didn't even know that this vote would be held today. McCarthy had the option to schedule it anytime within the next 48 hours or so, but he apparently decided at some point this morning to rip off the bandaid.

It was actually watching these dueling interviews this morning from McCarthy and Jeffries around 8 o'clock, where they were both sort of saying they were going to talk to their members, and let the chips fall where they made. McCarthy said that he and Jeffries had spoken last night, neither men would detail the conversation. We know they have a much better relationship than their predecessors had had, but no one would say exactly what went on in that conversation. And then Democrats and Republicans each huddled behind closed doors.

Democrats for nearly two hours, which each member, dozens and dozens of members speaking about McCarthy, they became very clear. There was no one who was going to defend McCarthy in that room. They may have their issues with this process. McCarthy, you know, one could argue maybe better to work with because he's the devil they know, but then those arguments carried anyway without Democrats who came out saying, we don't trust him.

And, you know, he's not our person to save, basically. And that's been the overwhelming consensus among Democrats today. We'll see now with the rubber meets the road here in terms of this vote, whether anyone changes their view when their name is called. But there was every indication leaving that conference meeting this morning, we sent it like a pep rally at times from the outside.

The Democrats were going to stick behind their leader, Hakeem Jeffries, in this latest unprecedented historic moment on the House floor. You know, Garrett, we're going to come right back to you shortly, I'm sure. But first, I'm joined now by Republican Congressman David Belladale, and sorry, it's a technical difficulty. So we're going to bring in the panel here.

Former Senator Doug Jones is here, and I'm also joined by Deepa Shiver and political reporter at NPR, former Democratic Senator from Alabama, Doug Jones, and also Stephen Hayes, editor and CEO of the Dispatch and NBC News contributor. Also, I think we're going to get to some other guests as well. So I want to start with you, Doug. Look, I was listening to Garrett in the last hour or so, and it seems that Kevin McCarthy, when he came out to speak with reporters this last time around, really seemed resigned to his state.

It was different than what we had heard before. What do you make of these latest developments, and what do you also make of Democrats deciding not to throw a lifelong here? Well, you know, I'm not surprised about Democrats not doing that. I wondered whether or not there would be a few handful, and I think that's still possible, but I was not surprised.

I mean, look, you know, Speaker McCarthy has reneged on the agreement he made with the president on the debt ceiling issues. He has started an impeachment inquiry against the president, which everyone knows and understands is without any basis whatsoever. So he has really anchored Democrats and people can't trust it. And so I'm not surprised at that.

And I think when the Democrats came out this morning and said, you know, we're going to we're going to not bail him out here. That's the resignation that he sees that he may see that his fate is now gone. And Doug, I want to come back to the panel just a second, but a beauty of life television. Now we have California Republican Congressman David Belladeo coming to us from a Garrett's camera, I believe there in Capitol Hill.

So we had the switch to the microphones there. But Congressman, I want to go to you now today, you called a motion to vacate politics at its worst. How do you reconcile that this came from your own party? You know, this is one of the frustrating things that we deal with.

And this isn't a new thing. We threw this whole process one of those big criticisms that we haven't moved the appropriations process. But it was inability to get some of these guys to vote for the role to even bring these bills to the House floor. We had we knew that they weren't going to vote before we left our August recess.

So we held off when we came back, we called the vote. We saw that they're voting against them. And they continued to vote against them. And then their criticism is we can't move anything.

And when you're the one throwing the roadblocks up and then criticizing their roadblocks, this is who they are and what they do. And sadly, it's only made it harder for Republicans to govern, harder for Republicans to pass their priorities forward. And it's just a frustrating deal. So it doesn't surprise us.

It just frustrates us. Do you think that Congressman Mack Gates is out for attention here? I do. That's it.

Very bluntly. Look, I've had some Republicans tell me, including Congressman Ken Buck yesterday, that he simply didn't trust Kevin McCarthy at this point. I know you're from California. You've had long history with Kevin McCarthy.

Specifically, do you trust the Speaker of the House? Yes, I absolutely do. I mean, there's this is the world of politics. It's tough.

And sometimes things don't go like you hope. But what was asked of this Speaker when he first was elected Speaker was an open process. Well, an open process does not allow for a fixed outcome. And so these guys that are mad that they didn't get exactly what they want.

When you ask for an open process where an employer will be debated and voted on, there's times that those amendments that you want fail. And that's what they got. But the reality is that's how the will of the American people is always going to work. And if you want an open and transparent process, we got it.

We just can't guarantee that outcome that they expected. And I'm also being told that Congressman Ken Buck just voted to House Speaker McCarthy just a few moments ago. Congressman, I want to ask you, if you need Democrats to do things, does this mean that you were actually without a majority here? Yes.

And if you can see right now what's going on the floor, an 11 Republican voted with all the Democrats. In fact, they delayed as much as they possibly could to make sure they were all on the floor to help Matt Gates do what he's doing right now. And it's frustrating to watch. Ultimately, if we have to govern with some sort of divided government here or some speakership that changes things, it's not going to be what these guys that are taking McCarthy out want.

It's actually going to get worse for him. And sadly, it's just not the way this place should run. I mean, we've got to have a strong speaker that does his job and keeps them trying to run on time. And I think McCarthy did that.

He gave them the open process. They didn't like the outcome and they're frustrated with themselves. And Congressman Hecking Jeffery said today, it is on Republicans now to join us to move the Congress and the country forward. Would you be open to working with Democrats and find some level of governing majority?

I've always been able to work with Democrats across the aisle and that's something that I can't paint on. But we have to have a majority that actually can bring bills to the floor and push those out. And we haven't been able to do that because these same guys are trying to take the speaker down. They're frustrated with some of the outcomes.

But the process is what they asked for. I don't think they understood what they were going to get. And ultimately, we're always looking for ways to work across the aisle to get things to the president's best. That's what we have to do, especially with a Democrat Senate and a Democrat president.

But we'll see how the process plays out. But if we need to work with Democrats, obviously we will. Just for a leadership election, that's not the right place for that. Congressman, what happens now?

Well, I think they're going to have a long drawn out fight. And those 45 days that we gave ourselves, potentially appropriations process gets wasted with, sadly, people's opportunity to just be on TV and potentially fundraise like we've already seen that they're doing. And would you, you know, who steps in a speaker here? You know, there's a lot of questions that could be Steve Scalise.

Obviously he's going through, you know, medical issues right now. Who do you see as emerging potentially as the next speaker of the House, if this vote finally ends up the way it's expected in the next few minutes? Well, none of us have had that conversation because we didn't believe that this would actually happen and that they would actually be, I mean, in the position where they'd actually do what they're doing. It's frustrating.

But there is no consensus handed out there. There's no one out there that the Republicans looked at replacing McCarthy because he has been a strong speaker and he's done an amazing job. And from the other side of the aisle, they don't want to see a guy like on the party there. I mean, he's been the strongest one, right?

So the person has done the most to gain the majority. And sadly, for Republicans, Democrats are probably happy to see him go. I mean, he was a strong weapon on our side. Congressman, I've replaced before.

Congressman, last question for you. Describe for me the mood on the House for right now. I know you're about to go vote. Have you spoken with Kevin McCarthy a little earlier today?

And do you think he seemed dejected to you? Did he seem resigned to you the last time he came out to speak a short time ago? You know, I actually sat next to him at lunch just a little while ago in his office. Our Republican delegation had lunch with him.

And I've never seen him dejected. The speaker has always had a great attitude. He's always looking forward and trying to find a way to move the ball in the right direction. Sadly, this situation was made all the rest of us, very disappointed and disgusted with the whole process.

And it's not a fun day for the rest of us. But the speaker has always had a great attitude about his job and he's happy to have it. And we would love to keep him there. Congressman, he's sat next on lunch.

Can you share something he told you directly? No. Most of the conversation was just stuff that was going on in California. I mean, obviously, my district quarters his and I share all three counties with the speaker and we focused on some of the issues going on at home.

But we didn't really have any type of conversation on this vote here. Congressman Valle, thank you so much for joining us. I know you're going to go vote. We appreciate you taking the time.

In fact, with me now on set is our panel, Deeba, Shiverum, Doug Jones, Stephen Hayes, plus Carla Cabello and Brendan Buck joined us as well. I want to go to Deeba. Tell me, what's your reaction? What's going on here?

And what's this in perspective? What type of gets the work moment are we in right now? Well, let's kind of zoom out a little bit. We started on Saturday with an almost government shutdown, which was averted.

It's just one of the reasons why Matt Gates here started some of these arguments on saying that, you know, Kevin McCarthy signed up with Democrats. That's why he doesn't deserve to be speaker. Two days later, you know, we are now having this conversation on a very historic moment of Kevin McCarthy, essentially set to lose his house speaker title. So I don't think you can emphasize enough how unprecedented this is and how historic a moment this is.

And at the same time, you have to highlight, you know, as Republicans are arguing on the House floor right now, as they've been divided, as they're saying their votes right now on the House floor as this is going on, Democrats has Garrett had pointed out a second ago are all lined up behind their leadership. So there's a real, a different parallel going on right now on the House. Some last minute maneuvering here, though, and we just heard from Garrett and a Capitol Hill team, some individual Republicans now reaching out to individual Democrats, you know, potentially some, you know, begging for them to help, you know, speaker McCarthy and other source telling them, I'm just taking the temperature here. But is that expected?

These last minute maneuvering to try to see because we don't know exactly how this is going to turn out. This is unfolding live right now. How much did that surprise you? I think that's to your point though that some of this is unexpected.

We don't know how this is going to turn out. There's no clear path after this happened. So that I think is not entirely surprising that you would see Republicans turning to their Democratic colleagues saying, you know, maybe there's a way we can sort of do a Hail Mary here. But right now, there's a lot of predictions you can make and we really don't know the path forward.

Stephen, I want to turn to you as we look at these live pictures here, you know, is there any way that the speaker and McCarthy, you know, if he does not survive this vote, that he may, you know, come back in a future vote, don't mind since there is no, you know, we don't know how this will turn out in future votes. Sure. Look, I mean, I think it's hazardous, make any prediction right now because this is all unfolding in front of us. I mean, Kevin McCarthy, I think, has made some pretty fundamental mistakes.

And in many cases, I think in this case, in particular, he's reaping what he's sown. If you remember back to the weeks after January 6th, Kevin McCarthy wanted to be Speaker of the House. So he traveled to Mar-a-Lago having denounced, despite having denounced President Trump for his behavior on January 6th, traveled to Mar-a-Lago to shore up that part of the Republican Party so that he could become Speaker. He didn't want President Trump to work against him as he sought to become Speaker.

He elevated the very people who are doing this to him. He's given them voice. He's given them power. He's done it again and again and again.

And now it's coming back to Biden. Nobody can be surprised that this is the outcome here. I think if you look at the Republican, the Republican conference in general, you just had speeches from the anti-McCarthy forces, the pro-McCarthy forces. And there's a temptation to look at the conference and think that's just how things soar up over.

There's a handful or maybe 10, 12 were opposed to McCarthy. And then this bigger group that's four Kevin McCarthy, they're four Kevin McCarthy on this vote. There is a lot of frustration with Kevin McCarthy as Speaker, as a person throughout the rest of the conference. People are voting for him in this moment because they don't want to be with Matt Gaetz and the Nihilists, but they're not enthusiastic, many of them about Kevin McCarthy.

And I want to bring into this panel now, Brendan Buck as well as former Congressman Carlos Kubello. And Brendan, I want to start with you with up. You used to work for John Boehner here. And Speaker Boehner decided to retire back in 2015, rather than go to a vote of a motion to vacate.

Put this in perspective right now. So you watch these live pictures right now, this vote is still unfolding. What's going through your head? Yeah, it's actually really tough to watch.

This motion to vacate has hung over the head of the last two, three Republican speakers. And it has, I think, been a cancer for the House. It has been what has driven so much dysfunction because this tool was used as a weapon. It was never intended to be something wielded to threaten the speaker because you disagree with how they handle things.

It was hanging over us over and over again. It feels almost inevitable at the same time, though, when Kevin McCarthy had to make the deals that he did to get the speakers gabbled. And one of the key ones was keeping a lowering the threshold to allow any single member to offer this motion to allow what's happening today to do it. And it felt like when he did that, it was only a matter of time because, frankly, as a party, we've been making a lot of promises to ourselves, to our voters, from leadership to rank and file, promises we couldn't keep.

And eventually, that's going to catch up to you. And I think that's what's happening here in the big picture, but also for Kevin McCarthy himself, just making promises on things like spending bills, levels they just couldn't deliver. So it feels inevitable, but it's no less hard to watch. I think this is terrible for the institution.

The next speaker, whoever that is, is going to have to live under this same threat, once again. And you're only now going to have an even more emboldened small group who knows that they can push around the speaker, however they want. It's no way to get things done. It's destructive.

I'm terrified for what's going to happen next time we have to do anything big, fund the government that limits anything like that. It's a bad, sad moment for the House, and I really worry about the repercussions down the line. And Carlos Kubello, I want to bring you in now. Look, I was struck yesterday and last several days listening to Congressman Matt Gates talk about Speaker McCarthy and essentially the cardinal sin of working with Democrats.

And that's why part of the reason why he wanted this motion to beg it. And I know this has been going on for decades back at the Gingrich years, but as a Republican, when did it compromise become such a dirty word for Republicans? And what are your thoughts as you watch us all unfold live as we speak? Well, Gabe, this event has been years in the making, and truthfully, it is necessary, and it was always unavoidable.

Republican minorities, meaning minorities within the House Republican conference, when Republicans have been in the majority cab, been making unreasonable demands of their years, four years. It really started back in 2010 when Republicans won back the majority after spending some four years in the minority. John Boehner was under that kind of pressure instantly. In 2015, he left Congress to avoid the spectacle that we're seeing on the screen today.

Some of us at the time asked John Boehner to stay and go through the pain and allow the institution to go through the pain at the time, because Republican leaders have run from this problem for a long time. They haven't wanted to confront it. And I will give Kevin McCarthy some credit for at least being willing to put himself through this and forcing the institution to find a way forward after the most likely outcome here that the House becomes speakerless in the middle of a term. But Gabe, yes, this is a result of the unreasonable demands and expectations that a small group of Republicans have consistently made from a position where they lack the votes in cases where Democrats control the Senate and the White House as is the case now.

So Republicans have set their leaders up to fail, and it looks like today, as a result, Kevin McCarthy is going to fail. Carlos Cabello, I want you to stand by as we look at these live pictures of that voting in the House of Representatives. And right now, there are six Republicans who have voted to House Speaker McCarthy. So that number means McCarthy is trending towards being ousted.

Joining me now is Virginia Democratic Congressman Jerry Connolly. Congressman, take us inside the House Democratic meeting this morning. There were some members initially, as I understand it, who were open to blocking the motion to vacate yesterday. What did Leader Jeffery say to get you all on the same page this morning?

I think it was really less what Leader Jeffery said than the whole conversation in which we reminded ourselves about the issues that surround Kevin McCarthy as speaker, how he got to be speaker, how he said the right things in January 6, only to turn around two weeks later, and Jennifer left at Mar-a-Lago and became super-maga, tried to prevent the January 6 committee from even meeting or considering the events, tragic events of that day and what followed. And of course, taking 15 votes to become speaker and making promises that really depleted the value of the speakership with every round and then not keeping those promises. And so there were issues of integrity, issues of performance that were of concern not only to Democrats, but to Republicans. And Congressman, as I understand it, there was an actual tape that was played at this meeting of Speaker McCarthy, essentially, trashing Democrats.

Is that how you would describe it? Is that correct? And tell me about that moment. Is that what did it?

I don't know, I think it goes in political 101 textbooks going forward as maybe one of the most crashingly stupid things somebody could do on the eve of your survival vote. Certainly by Sunday, when Kevin McCarthy went on face the nation, he knew that the only chance he had of surviving his speakership was with Democratic support, tacit or otherwise, to thoroughly trash Democrats for providing the overwhelming support for the continuing resolution that he supported and put on the floor Saturday was a huge misstep and could only, frankly, clarify the thinking of anybody who was considering wavering on his behalf in our Congress. How do you see the next few days playing out? Well, we are organized.

So that makes a difference and say a new Congress lacking a speaker as we did in January. So there'll be a temporary speaker and we will have to have another series of votes to elect a new speaker. And with the removal of Kevin McCarthy, I think the contours of well, what does that entail are going to have to be debated. Will we have some kind of power sharing?

Will we in fact have a broad bipartisan coalition that elects a speaker who's more bipartisan? Or will we in fact go to the narrow partisan road again leading to more instability? That's an open question yet to be decided. Congressman, is that realistic?

Any sort of power sharing agreement? If you couldn't get that with Speaker McCarthy, what makes you think you could get that with whatever other speaker is elected? I think that's a fair question and I think it's probably a long shot. But I think we could never get that with Kevin McCarthy, with the vacancy, with a new speaker, you know, there can be the opportunity for some fresh air and fresh looks at how we operate and how we're structured.

I think, you know, Democrats are not unrealistic about the set of considerations and demands we may put forward. But that doesn't mean that we aren't entitled to some pretty important changes in how we behave around here, how we're structured, what the rights of the minority would be. And I think that would be a very healthy thing for the institution to re-examine and maybe reconsider. Can I explain to your constituents, Congressman, what's going on right now?

Well, I'm blessed with a very well-informed electorate in suburban Washington, many of whom have worked up here or are certainly familiar with this place. So my constituents are, you know, laser focused on what happens up here. Will the government shut down? Was everybody's mind over the weekend?

And now everybody looking at what's happening on the Republicans side of the aisle, this dysfunction and chaos really raises questions in their minds about the ability of Republicans, frankly, to govern. And Congressman, walking through your decision process of the last couple days, you said, and what you just told me that it was Speaker McCarthy's interviews over the week and trashing Democrats that largely, you know, sealed his fate. Was there at any moment, at any time, in the last few days, were you even considered saving Kevin McCarthy? Whether I did?

Yes. No. No, I have real clarity about that. It's not personal, but I think there are real integrity issues with respect to Speaker McCarthy.

He's done a both-offs-and-about-face on numerous issues. I mentioned January 6th, but he did the same on the debt ceiling agreement. The Incan wasn't even dry when he breached the agreement that he signed and shook hands on with the President with us. And then, of course, he did the same thing on impeachment.

He was the loudest critic of the previous impeachment of President Trump, saying that's got to come to the floor of the House for a full vote. And yet, he turns around and directs, you know, an impeachment thing for you based on no evidence. It's a fishing expedition. So he broke his word there, too.

And, of course, we hear numerous stories on the other side of the olive, making promises to this or that faction only to, frankly, breach them and break his word. I think you can't operate that way. I think, you know, your word's going to be a bond around here. And I think we need that fresh start.

So I never had any illusions. I might add one more thing. You know, frankly, Kevin McCarthy is a conservative Republican. He's antithetical to the values of the agenda that I, as a progressive Democrat, whole dear, and most of my colleagues.

And we needed to remember that, that what would be the purpose of preserving him as Speaker, given his record? And Congressman Connolly, one final question for those of you who are just joining us, these are live pictures of this vote to House, the Speaker of the House, a potentially historic moment in the House of Representatives. Congressman Connolly of Virginia, there isn't talk of Democrats reaching out to moderate Republicans about forming a coalition to elect a new Speaker that would govern potentially more smoothly from the middle. What do you think about that?

Is that realistic? Probably not, but it's worth a try. Let me just say, if you look at certain votes, the debt ceiling vote, the continuing resolution vote Saturday, the votes on Ukraine aid, there's a broad middle in the House, huge majority, well over 300 people in that category. So allowing them to come together and run things smoothly and make things work would make a lot of common sense.

Our partisan lines preclude that. Maybe with the removal of Speaker McCarthy and the election of a newspaper, we might have a fresh start at that. Congressman Connolly of Virginia, thank you so much for joining us. And we're now with the seven Republicans who have voted to out speaker McCarthy.

And we believe he can only afford to lose six, but the vote is still open and things could change. Right now, seven Republicans, again, have voted to Austin. We're going to take a quick break here and we'll be right back. Stay informed with the NBC News app.

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Back, we're now at eight House Republicans who have voted to oust Speaker McCarthy and back with you now on set, Deepa Shivram. Don't go in Stephen Haynes plus Carla Scabello and Brendan Buck. Brendan, I want to go to you as we look at these live pictures. We're at the eight Republicans now.

This is clearly trending in the direction where Speaker McCarthy would no longer be the speaker. What happens now? Who emerges as a potential speaker, if in fact this vote goes the way we think it's looking. Yeah, it's a really interesting question.

Of course, during the opening day when McCarthy failed to become speaker the first time, he was able to, of course, run again and keep going until he got it. This vote is fine. He is removed from office here. And so now you'll have a temporary speaker and the conference I imagine we'll get together and run some type of short-term little campaign, a leadership race.

Steve Solis, as the obvious next choice in that Gates, has actually said that he could support him. Real concerns about that Gates, or excuse me, seems to waste his ability to do the job given his cancer diagnosis recently. So I think you're going to be seeing a lot of names thrown around. What's I think very clear though is you're going to need, sign off from these five people who have set standards that are almost impossible or truly impossible to need.

So the question is not just who could it be, but who wants this John at this point? In 45 days, as we've discussed, there's potential for another government shutdown where these folks are going to be insisting on spending cuts that are frankly not achievable. And is that person then going to find themselves in the same exact spot that we have here? I think that's very possible.

So it's not only who's a good candidate, but who may want to take it? I think Steve Solis probably has the inside track, but I'm not so certain that all of them would would go along with him, sort of the next person up in leadership. You may have some other names loaded like Jim Jordan, who's been a conservative hero for a long time. So I think the conference is going to have to spend a lot of time figuring out these questions.

It could be ugly again. We may have a temporary speaker for quite a while. We'll have to see how that plays out. Thank you for your perspective, Brendan.

I do want to point out the vote is not quite final until it's actually gaveled in, but it's certainly going in that direction. I want to turn to former Congressman Carlos Coppella, who's also watching this unfold with all of us right now. What goes through your head is you're seeing this move closer to a final vote. And also what we just heard from Congressman Connolly talking about how with Speaker McCarthy's interviews over the weekend in this tape that was played at this Democratic meeting this morning, basically reminding Democrats of how antagonistic Speaker McCarthy has been for some time now, and especially over the last few days.

What's your reaction to healing that it was that, at least in part, that caused Democrats to refuse to throw him a lifeline here? Well, Gabe, this whole scene does bring back memories of numerous instances during my time in Congress when a small minority of Republicans would push our entire conference, all House Republicans into a very difficult position. I can hear my colleague saying, don't worry, Mitch McConnell in the Senate will bail us out because we're being pushed into a dead end. So this is kind of the ultimate dead end, right, the culmination of all those years of these House Republicans making unreasonable demands and having unreasonable expectations.

With regards to the Democrats and their posture, Gabe, I completely understand. And it is true that Speaker McCarthy has not been, at least in his public expressions, the most welcoming and bipartisan of House speakers. Now, I will say privately, Speaker McCarthy, at least during the time, I sort of did have strong relationships across the aisle, but that has likely changed as he moved into the ultimate leadership position. But I can certainly understand why Democrats wouldn't want to give him a lifeline.

At this point, I do hope that at some point, after this vote, Democrats are willing to work with centrist Republicans with reasonable Republicans to find a better way forward for this institution to help stabilize the institution. I want to allow it to deliver to you on this. As we look at these live pictures, we're getting to potentially end of this vote here short time away. Carlos, you talked about your time in the House and how there was always a factions within the Republican Party.

But ever to this point, this is unprecedented. And we've gotten so far in this motion to vacate. Well, Gabe, yes and no. I mean, in 2015 and Brendan can speak to this, the only reason that John Boehner had the votes to become Speaker is because there was a funeral service for a Democrat who had passed away.

And a lot of Democrats were not in the chamber that day. The Democrats had been there. I think it would have been very difficult for John Boehner to get the necessary votes to become Speaker. John Boehner was also threatened with this motion to vacate.

It was filed by Mark Meadows and others. Thomas Massey mentioned today during his floor speech that he was one of the co-authors, the original co-authors of that motion. So this is unfolding in a very dramatic way today, Gabe, but this has been in the making for many years. Former Congressman Carlos Cabela, thank you so much for joining us.

I want to turn here to our panel. As we're watching this, 204 yes votes at this point for the motion to vacate. We're nearing that threshold. Steven, as you look at this, and what we just heard from Congressman Colony, the Democrats decided, hey, this isn't worth it.

We can't go along with throwing McCarthy a lifeline. What's your reaction? Yeah, I'm not at all surprised by what Congressman Connolly said. Makes sense for Democrats.

I do think it was interesting what Congressman former Congressman Cabela said, in that these groups, these factions have existed for a long time. The difference is the Republicans have a slim majority right now. There's no room to maneuver. You can't placate people like Matt Gates on the one hand and Congressman Valadeo on the other.

They want different things. Matt Gates is a nihilist. He wants to stop the process. He wants to blow it up and he wants to be on TV.

Congressman Valadeo, as he said in his interview with you, would like to work across the aisle, would like to accomplish things. He comes from a competitive district in California. He wants easier to govern Matt Gates is a grifter. Speaker Nancy Pelosi, though, had a thin majority as well.

This never happened under Speaker Pelosi. I mean, certainly different dynamics among Democrats. They have their progressive wing, but the progressive wing usually comes to some accommodation with the Democratic leadership. And I think the incentive structure that exists for Republicans, particularly Republicans who want to spend their time on television or talking to talk radio people or right-wing podcasts doesn't quite exist the same way on the Democratic side.

And as we get to 212 guest votes, we are nearing a final vote here. Doug, as you as we wait here for this final vote. I don't have a clue who emerges. Look, I think one of the things that I'm assuming is I think we should all be getting a little tired of the historic moments that this Republican leadership is continuing to give us year after year and month after month, whether it's a former president who's been indicted four times and beached wise, whether it is the historic vote on the speaker earlier or this vote today, it's time to govern.

The one thing I would talk about with the speaker Pelosi, Democrats have learned to govern a little bit. They don't always like what they see, but they've really started to try to figure out ways to govern and act in a way that you can move this country forward. And I think that's the difference with what you're seeing among the various factions in the Republican party. They are fine with blowing things up rather than trying to govern if they get their way.

I don't know who emerges from this. I think Democrats are going to sit back and watch and let Republicans decide. And hopefully they will put someone forward who will be able to work with Democrats, but also keep his word or her word with Democrats as well. And I think that that's the key.

And I want to look at those live pictures again, we're at 215, we're here to have reached the number of votes that House Speaker McCarthy, but again, not official until it's actually gaveled in. I want to turn to you, is this idea that there could be some outreach to moderate Republicans? Is that really realistic at this point? In this vote?

Yeah. No, not in this vote. Going forward, this idea that there could be some power sharing. And actually, let's let's listen in right now for this live.

Nay. Bush. Bush. Kamek.

Nay. Carter of Texas. Carter of Texas. And what's happening right now for our viewers?

There could be some stragglers that they're going through again. The vote has not been gaveled in, but it appears that we that they do have enough votes to House Speaker McCarthy. And as we wait for that final vote to be gaveled, I was asking you that question. Is there any is it realistic to think that there could be some sort of power sharing agreement between Democrats and Democrats here?

Is that just a pipe dream? Yeah, it's hard to say at this point. But as we've been talking about, I mean, as we've seen in this vote that's ongoing right now, Democrats have remained united front. And we're not headed into a slow season here.

We've got a 45 day CR until the government potentially could shut down again. We've got Ukraine aid that needs to be decided on. I mean, there are a number of issues here where it would probably benefit Democrats to remain in a united front. And so like we said earlier, it's really hard to say what happens next to when this vote officially clears.

And we have an idea of what happens potentially next if they start voting on, you know, who could be the next speaker now? A lot of things are still unclear. But it's hard to say if that kind of a coalition would really be successful or even beneficial to Democrats at this point. And again, as we wait for the final voting gaveled in, Stephen, what do you see here as the future for the sharply divided Republican Party?

Yeah, I mean, I think we see more of this. We're going to get more of this. I mean, there will be set aside legislation. I think we're in likelihood for these kinds of scrapes among Republicans.

Nobody's going to leave this satisfied. If Matt Gates gets a scalp, he's not going to leave this and think this is a win, a real win for him. He's going to want to continue to be on air. He's going to want to continue to be making this case.

There is a part of the Republican Party, the ones who are opposing McCarthy here, who they win by losing. Losing is not a negative for them. They're not trying generally to legislate some of more conservatives. So we want to move like limited government, but they win by losing and by getting attention.

So as long as that's likely to continue and even as we want to look at these law pictures now, again, we're waiting for this vote to become official. Let's take a listen to what's going on in the US House of Representatives. And again, we're waiting for that final gavel. All the votes are in there waiting to see if anyone will change their vote.

And we could be about to hear that Speaker McCarthy has been ousted as Speaker of the House of Representatives. What historic moment we could be witnessing right now. Let's keep listening. We got the tally.

On this vote, the yays are 216. The nays are 210. The resolution is adopted without objection. The motion to reconsider is laid on the table.

The office of Speaker of the House of the United States House of Representatives is hereby declared vacant. It comes after McCarthy, the top Republican, cut a deal with Democrats to avert a government shutdown over the weekend that angered some in his own party whose demands were dropped in the negotiations. It happened because one of those Republicans, Florida Congress, when Matt Gates, introduced the resolution to remove McCarthy just last night. And it's the first time this process has ever successfully removed a House Speaker in American history.

Let's go right down to senior Capitol Hill correspondent, Garrett Hake. Garrett, what happens now? Lesser, a speaker ship that began in historic fashion less than a year ago now ends in historic fashion with Kevin McCarthy, the first speaker to ever be removed from that position by a vote on the floor. What we'll see in the immediate term is the naming of a speaker pro tem, a temporary speaker, a caretaker speaker, who will lead the House through the next election to replace Kevin McCarthy and select someone else to be second in line for the presidency.

This could be a contentious process as well. The Speaker lost eight Republican votes along with every Democrat voting to vacate the chair. Who could succeed him in this climate right now? Very much an open question.

The House will be largely paralyzed until that question can be answered. Is there a timeline for them to get this done? Lesser, we are in uncharted territory. It's cliche to say, but we have never been in this position before in the United States Congress.

The House will move quickly. This speaker pro tem idea is actually a new post 9-11 change to ensure continuity of government. So we are very much in uncharted territory, but it is every indication that the House Republicans still control it. We want to move quickly to name someone as their leader so they can continue the business of government.

Remember, they only have some 40 odd days to fund the government on a longer term basis after that deal from over the weekend. All right, Garrett, we'll let you continue to work with the story. Let me turn to our meet the press moderator, Kristen Welker. Garrett put it pretty well uncharted territory right now.

So what does this mean going forward in terms of the mechanism of government? And that other question, who would want this job now? Well, that is the big question. And you saw Representative Patrick McHenry who was standing there.

He's a real ally of Speaker McCarthy. He's one of the names that has been floated about. But I think big picture, Lester, it really highlights the deep divisions within the Republican Party right now. The fact that this is happening after that showdown over trying to keep the government open.

And the question becomes, what does happen next? Look, I've been talking to Republicans who are expressing frustration about what they're seeing on Capitol Hill. The fact that this is going on against the backdrop of 2024, they say, look, to the point that Garrett was just making, they only have a matter of days to try to get another deal to keep the government open. Moderate Republicans want to see deep spending cuts.

They say, all of this, it's occurring right now on Capitol Hill, is taking attention away from the critical work that needs to be done in that regard. Think about our polling, Lester, if you want to pull back the curtain just a little bit more. It shows Republicans getting high marks on things like the economy. And I think the question and the concern within the Republican Party is, will this type of activity on Capitol Hill, what GOP candidate Mike Pence has described as chaos, by the way, today, will that take away from those high marks that they are getting?

And from the perspective of the voters, they are looking at a series of somewhat chaotic events, the standoff over the debt ceiling, the near government shutdown, the GOP front runner who's facing foreign indictment. So the big question, could this mar them heading into 2024? All right, Chris, and thank you for more. Let's bring in our senior Washington correspondent, Hallie Jackson, Hallie mentioned it in your thoughts about the way forward and what this symbolizes for future speakers.

Well, right now, let's do short term long term lesser, because right now the word that comes to mind is essentially paralysis, because that is what is happening in the House of Representatives until this gets sorted out. Garrett sort of made a joke and I smiled a bit uncharted territory. Get ready to hear those two words a heck of a lot over the course of the next several days, weeks who knows how long, because that is where we are. We don't know if now former Speaker Kevin McCarthy is going to try to run for the speakership again.

We know it took him 15 votes to get the first time might he try to throw his hat in the ring? Will there be other names as you've heard described who come forward on this part? And keep in mind the sheer drama, politically, of what we just saw Lester inside the beltway, like we just don't see, right? It says something about our institutions.

It says something about what the new normal is right now on Capitol Hill in Congress. There was an opportunity there. There was a chance that Democrats may be bailed out Kevin McCarthy, even they made the decision, that party did that they were going to let Kevin McCarthy sleep in the bed that he made. And why do I say that?

Because the deal that got Kevin McCarthy the speakership in the first place was this, that it only would take one vote to bring up this motion, very procedural thing to potentially kick him out of office. From the very beginning almost a year ago now, not even a year ago, the question had really not been if somebody would try to use that motion to kick him out. It was a function of when? Well, we now know the when piece of it after this deal to avoid a shutdown essentially was struck over the weekend.

It could have been any number of things. And I would say that's also just the tip of the iceberg for some of these ultra conservative Republicans who have long not wanted to see McCarthy in the speakership. So that's the short term thing. As we're looking at these extraordinary images, the Speaker Pro Tem of the House of Representatives running things recess now as Republicans are scrambling to figure out a way forward.

And keep in mind those speeches that we saw Lester, right? The it was Republican versus Republican. This was not something that involved sort of both sides in the aisle as we often talk about and often hear about here in Washington. This this is I think the Republican ideological fight, the battle royale that is unfolding in that party writ large in several ways here.

Longer term wise, listen, I think we've got to look at the way that American people view the institution here. There is a process and you've heard a lot about from McCarthy allies about this process essentially being undermined. And you heard anger, fiery anger from some of McCarthy's allies on the floor that, you know, this is political gamesmanship. The question that perhaps of those like Congressman Gates are doing is to raise money, to raise their profiles, if you will.

So all of it, let me go back to sort of where we started here, uncharted territory, Lester, no kidding. That's where we are. That's where we're going to be for a bit. Yeah, we're seeing the pictures of the major players.

Matt Gates, he was the one that pulled up the political trigger around this. He was talking to reporters on Capitol Hill. We'll hear more from him. I suspect.

Let me bring in. Well, you know, the stages of grief, I think are in progress, right? Listen to Lewis. I think there was a stage of denial and I've certainly experienced a good amount of their anger.

And now we appear to be headed toward bargaining. I think the world of Steve Solis. I think you make a phenomenal speech. I'm afraid of $33 trillion in debt crushing the working people in my district.

I'm afraid of the dollar losing its status as the global reserve currency. If they want to expel me, let me know when they have it. Has anyone talked about that with you? I was left before we got less than 45 days ago.

Matt Gates, again, he pulled the political trigger start of the mechanism that led to today's ouster of the now outgoing. I heard you say you're a fighter so many times. He's going to walk past him. We're going to see if Kevin McCrory was going to make any comments as he leaves the the chamber.

Matt Gates continue to talk. Let me bring in Chief White House correspondent Peter Alexander. Peter, what's the view from the White House on all this? The West Wing, no indication of whether or not President Biden is watching the events they've been taking place on Capitol Hill.

But I can tell you that I saw some of his senior aides glued to their televisions watching what's going on right here. The White House is really casting this as a split screen moment, effectively saying that while President Biden is focused on delivering for the American people, the extreme in their words, House Republicans are effectively in disarray right now. The President today announcing what is a historic moment in its own right that for the first time in its 60 year history, Medicare would be negotiating with 10 drug manufacturers to try to bring down prices for things like eloquence and all sorts of different prescription drugs that many Americans are familiar with right now while the Republicans were fighting among themselves. I'm struck as we watch what's taking place on the Hill Lester by a big headline only a matter of maybe a decade ago.

They celebrated Republicans did the new generation of conservative leaders, the young guns as they were described. Paul Ryan, Eric Cantor and Kevin McCarthy. Paul Ryan no longer in Congress. Eric Cantor booted as well.

Kevin McCarthy now a historic figure becoming the first House Speaker to lose his position by a vote of this kind. So just another example of how at least in the eyes of the White House and frankly for anybody watching right now the real challenges continue to exist for this Republican Party that has been feuding among itself and obviously among itself and obviously Donald Trump's role in all of this Donald Trump who you'll remember only a matter of a couple weeks ago was saying that House Republicans should shut down the government if they couldn't get the deal that they wanted. Well the shutdown was averted. Kevin McCarthy made sure that didn't happen but ultimately it cost him his job Lester.

All right Peter Alexander at the White House thank you. Let me go back to our senior Capitol Hill correspondent Garrett. Hey Gary it's not lost on anyone that Democrats wanted a position to save McCarthy's job and they made the collective decision not to. What's the blowback potential blowback the effect on Democrats?

Well Lester we'll see where this lands when a new speaker is ultimately chosen but Democrats felt like they owed Kevin McCarthy nothing and frankly he made no effort to even approach them in any serious manner to save his speakership. In fact in this caucus meeting Democrats held this morning where they discussed and debated how they would respond to this motion that Democratic leaders played a video of McCarthy on the Sunday shows this weekend attacking Democrats and suggesting it was Democrats who drove the country to the edge of the government shutdown this week knowing full well that he would need those Democratic votes if he wanted to remain in power for some Democratic lawmakers that was a last straw. They never trusted Kevin McCarthy not based on any of his recent behavior his role in the negotiating of the debt ceiling deal for example that he immediately backed away from but even going back farther than that his actions after January 6 where he condemned Donald Trump on the floor then traveled to Mar-a-Lago to court his support where he undercut a bipartisan commission to investigate the six that he himself had asked to be created. Democrats felt like this was not a choice between the lesser of two evils this was someone who was basically in league with the same forces who had now turned against him and so there wasn't really much of a choice or a decision to be made here.

McCarthy and the speakership was Republicans problem and Democrats would vote as a block to basically say we don't want this guy solve your own problem Republicans that's the choice they've made and we'll see how that plays out in the longer term when a new speaker is chosen. Yeah was it ever clear the number of what kind of deals that were made for him to get the job in the first place? This has always been a question lesser and perhaps we'll get a better answer now that he is no longer the speaker. The conservative faction of House Republicans said that a variety of deals were made including placing some of their members on the rules committed which controls what bills come to the floor.

The spending bills for example like the ones we've been debating over the last couple months will be brought up on an individual basis rather than in a big group all before Christmas as is often the case but there were also conservative members who said there were other deals that were made side deals on various policy positions or guaranteeing votes on various issues. McCarthy never formally confirmed any of that publicly no paper was ever produced to confirm those deals but it's that lack of trust that I contributed to the position McCarthy is in now I think about someone like Nancy Mays who is a member who has been at times allied with McCarthy but who's repeatedly said how frustrated she was that she couldn't count on him to keep his word to her she was a surprise yes vote to replace McCarthy today and I assume there's great pressure obviously to get things worked out and back on track as quickly as they possibly can. Yeah and I think that's one of the great ironies of all this Lester is whoever the new speaker is and whether they're chosen today or a week from now or three weeks from now we'll have to deal with all the same problems this speaker did I just interviewed one of the House Republicans who voted against McCarthy who was explaining to me his frustration with the mounting debt in this country and the spending bills being as large as they are and I asked him it probably not but we have to try so we could very much find ourselves in a similar position with a new speaker in a not too distant future Lester. Hey thanks very much I conclude our special report much more ahead in our streaming network NBC News now and I'll see you tonight with more on NBC Nightly News for now I'm Lester Holt in New York today.

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