Meet the Press NOW — September 4

If it's Thursday, Public Health and Public Outrage, HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is rebuked by Democrats and Republicans as he pushes misinformation on vaccines and the COVID pandemic during testimony on Capitol Hill, calling the recently fired CDC chief a liar and questioning the safety of all vaccines. Plus new concerns about the labor market data shows private sector hiring slowed dramatically in August as President Trump battles new uncertainty around his tariff agenda and fights to control the future of the Federal Reserve.

And President Trump speaks with Ukrainian President Zelensky and European leaders about security guarantees for Keve and upping pressure on Moscow as peace talks with Russia remain at a standstill. Welcome to me, the press now. I'm Kristen Welker on an extraordinary day in Washington where the nation's top health official, Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

faced bipartisan backlash during a combative hearing on Capitol Hill as senators from both sides of the aisle expressed deep concerns about his leadership. Kennedy testified that the CDC had been lying to the American public during the pandemic. He said that mRNA vaccines were dangerous and in a shocking moment appeared to confirm his belief that there is no such thing as a safe and effective vaccine. I mean, we were lied to about everything.

We were lied to about natural immunity. We were told again and again the vaccines would prevent transmission, they'd prevent infection. It wasn't true. Are you aware that another one of these new members, Dr.

Levy wrote that, quote, evidence is mounting and indisputable that mRNA vaccines cause serious harm, including death, especially among young people? Yes or no? Are you aware that he said that? I wasn't aware.

But I agree with it. You agree with it. It's not true. It wasn't true.

And he said it. But you are lie this time. The happens the twilight. The rest of this time.

I boat me for you. It's future time. Dr. Kennedy and your confirmation hearings, you promised to uphold the highest standards for vaccines.

Since then, I've grown deeply concerned. The public has seen measles outbreaks, leadership in the National Institute of Health questioning the use of mRNA vaccines, the recently confirmed Director of Centers for Disease Control and Prevention fired. Americans don't know who to rely on. I would like to say this, because of the conflicting recommendations made by about COVID.

This is Eric Erickson, good conservative out of Atlanta, Georgia, occasionally gives me help. My wife has stage four lung cancer, she has one of the people that COVID vaccine actually helps. Thanks to the current S to HHS, CVS is unable to get her vaccine. I would say effectively we're denying people vaccine.

And outside the hearing, Republican Senator Tom Tillis voiced his concerns. Do you still have confidence in his ability to leave the nation on public health? Well, I think a lot of that, I'm concerned with some of the actions over the last four weeks. I'm concerned that that balance is that we're diminishing the credibility of the CDC.

We could be diminishing the credibility of the U.S. government in terms of keeping kids safe. And I'm trying to lower the temperature and get to specific things, not big, not click bait, but real work to reestablish credibility. These institutions are hurting.

And people can grow up like me, we'll get hurt the most if we don't get it right. Democrats on the committee not surprisingly blasted Secretary Kennedy on a number of issues. You canceled $500 million of research because the MRNA technology is about continuing the research to be ready for the next flu influenza, the next pandemic. And you have to do.

I'm happy to have a detailed discussion with you. You're so wrong. You're interrupting me. And sir, you're a charlatan.

That's what you are. You're the ones who conflate chronic disease with the need for vaccines. I want to go back to just again some basic facts. Do you accept the fact that a million Americans died from COVID?

I don't know how many. You're the Secretary of Health and Human Services. You don't have any idea how many Americans died from COVID? I'm not making stuff up.

You know, sometimes when you make an accusation, it's kind of a confession, Mr. Kennedy. Everybody is corrupt, but you, it's like what we're looking at. I don't think so.

And I don't even know what you're talking about. Well, I think you do know what I'm talking about. The firing hearing comes just a week after CDC director Susan Menares was fired which led to multiple other top agency officials resigning today. Menares speaking out for the very first time about her firing saying she was pressured to compromise science, writing in the Wall Street Journal, quote, I was told to pre-approve the recommendations of a vaccine advisory panel newly filled with people who have publicly expressed anti-vaccine rhetoric.

That panel's next meeting is scheduled for September 18th through 19th. Once trusted experts are removed and advisory bodies are stacked, the results are predetermined. That isn't reform. It is sabotage.

Today, Mr. Kennedy outright calling Dr. Menares a liar. No, I did not say that to her.

I never had a private meeting with her. Other witnesses to every meeting that we have and all those witnesses will say, I never said that. So she's lying today to the American people in the Wall Street Journal. Yes, sir.

I had a big child in the head of the CDC that if she refused to sign off on your changes to the childhood vaccine schedule that she had to resign. No, I told her that she had to resign because I asked her, are you a trustworthy person? And she said no. So if you had an employee who told you they weren't trustworthy, would you ask them to resign, Senator?

As somebody who advised the executives on hiring strategies, number one, I would suggest in the interview, you ask them if they're truthful rather than four weeks after we took the time of the US Senate to confirm the person just for the future nominee that we're going to have to consider. The bipartisan outrage on display there. Joining me now is senior national politics reporter, Sahil Kapoor on Capitol Hill, White House correspondent, Yamiche Alcindor, and Dr. Erwin Redlan, or Ed Jump, senior research scholar at Columbia University and professor of pediatrics at Albert Einstein College of Medicine.

Thanks to all of you for being here. Sahil, let me start off with you on the Hill. Boy, we just heard some fiery testimony, but I wanted zero in on a couple of people here. Senator Cassidy and Senator Barasso, these are two Republicans.

They are both doctors, their frustration, their alarm on full display today. Sahil, what are the broader implications of that? Yeah, Chris and Senator Cassidy's line of questioning was very notable, not only because he's a doctor, but also because he's the chairman of the separate health committee. And he's promised to conduct oversight of the firing and the exodus at the CDC.

His line of questioning with the HHS secretary gives you a sense of how unhappy he is with what's going on at HHS and the CDC. He started by demanding to know if President Trump deserves the Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed, to which Kennedy immediately replied, absolutely. And then Cassidy said, then why did you say that COVID vaccine killed more people than COVID itself? The testimonials are rather red testimonials from ordinary people and physicians saying that the mess at HHS is keeping vaccines away effectively from people.

Now after the hearing, Cassidy was a little bit mum about exactly where this is going next. Take a listen to what he said. Did he just wage any of your concerns? Again, I'll let my exchange understand for itself.

Should he resign? Again, I'll let my statement just stand for itself. You regret your vote to confirm Mr. Kennedy.

I feel like he should put an answer on the piece of the paper. The pre-supposes, the conclusion, we have to have a dispassionate understanding of what your place, including interviewing the people from the CDC. Now Chris and Cassidy is also walking a tightrope because of course he is running for re-election in the Ruby Red State of Louisiana. I found it fascinating that he was using the language of MAGA, the currency that MAGA trades in, which is strong support and alignment with President Trump to advance his own goals of supporting and protecting vaccines.

You know, it's a really important point to put it against the backdrop of the perspective of the midterms, because of course they are looming so large. On the flip side, you do have Democrats who also reeled Secretary Kennedy in some of the most heated moments, but they of course are not the party in power. So is there any recourse that Democrats have in this moment other than having those sharp exchanges? Well, Democrats highlighted their intentions right at the outset with that joint statement, nearly every Democrat on this committee signed before the hearing calling for our kids' resignation.

So it was no mystery where they were. But what Democrats have done since then, and during the hearing a little bit, is highlight the criticisms by Republicans, not just Senator Cassidy, but also Senator John Barrasso, which I thought was very important because he's the majority whip. He's the number two Republican, and he's a staunch ally Trump who rarely see him going after President Trump's nominees in this former fashion, also notable the fact that he's a doctor, also clearly hearing from folks at home about this, about how this is damaging trust and vaccine. So Senator Barr also speaking about this, notable Democrats are highlighting both of them as well as Senator Tillis, the Republican who's not running for re-election, has no political concerns here.

What they have to do is peel off enough Republicans here in order to make this a real problem, at which point the administration will no longer be able to simply say this is a Democratic problem and ignore it. Well, just fascinating to watch all of that unfold today, so I'll thank you for unpacking all of it for us. Yamiche, let me turn to you at the White House, I know you've been working your sources there. What are they telling you about President Trump's reaction to what the world witnessed today?

Well, Christian, of course, after this incredible hearing, this hearing where, of course, we saw Senators from both sides of the aisle really grilling of the health secretary. The big question was, does he still have the confidence of President Trump? I'm not getting a straight answer from that, but what I am hearing from the White House is essentially that he is someone that President Trump still feels good about his pick. Whether or not his future is certain is a big question, I think, still.

But I want to read to you part of the White House statement that was essentially supportive of Secretary Kennedy. It said, in part, today's hearing showed exactly why President Trump put Secretary Kennedy in charge of HHS to fix this broken system that has overseen America's unprecedented chronic disease crisis. They went on to say, well, Democrats play street theater and call for blindly throwing even more money at the problem. The Trump administration focused on using evidence-based gold standard science to truly make America healthy again.

Really interesting there that the White House is talking about what Democrats did, but really is not talking about the fact that there were Republican senators, also questioning Senator Kennedy or Secretary Kennedy's leadership at the health department. We also heard from other White House officials saying that Secretary Kennedy was prepared, that he was ready for this hearing. I think what's interesting still, though, is the fact that the President does not want to see, and usually does not want to see these sort of spectacles where you have an administration official not looking like he's at his best, not looking like he's sort of grounded and knows what's really going on, because, again, you had these Republicans who were grilling him about vaccines and science, and he didn't have sort of the clear answers. He gave some contradicting answers, so it's going to be really interesting to see how long President Trump sticks by Secretary Kennedy and whether or not this gets in any sort of political trouble for him.

Well, Yamiche to that point, I mean, one of President Trump's stated most proudest accomplishments was Operation Warp Speed getting a COVID vaccine, and today we heard Secretary Kennedy really flip-flocked on how he viewed the COVID vaccine, and that work that was done. And one moment said, yes, he does deserve a Nobel Peace Prize for that, but another moment saying that no vaccines can be trusted. How do you think that plays at the White House? I think that that's the big question, and the White House isn't being clear about that.

We know that President Trump has said that he is very proud of the vaccine development that happened under his watch when, of course, in 2019 and 2020 when we saw this whole country looking for a vaccine to be developed, President Trump was very happy with the vaccine was developed, and by himself, that being said, this White House isn't really being clear about whether or not the health secretary statements and frankly, his moves and his actions to oust all these top scientists, whether or not that puts him in sort of a problematic situation for the future. So definitely we're going to watch, Kristin. All right. You, Michelle, to the White House.

Thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. Now let me turn to Dr. Red Leonard.

Thank you so much for being here, doctor. I want to begin by just getting your reaction to what we heard and what we saw today on Capitol Hill. Yeah. Hi, Kristin.

So yeah, this was an extraordinary moment. I've never seen anything like this before in a hearing, especially around something that is supposed to be objective and medical, like healthcare policy. But I think that President Trump actually made a big mistake. He was very attracted to the fact that he was going to get a Kennedy in his cabinet, and I think that's turned out to be an extraordinary mistake for him politically, as well as from public health point of view.

And I think what Kennedy is going to do, he's going to erode the success that Trump had with the development of the very, very successful mRNA vaccine that really put a stop to what could have been a lot more fatalities from COVID. The other thing is that this hearing showed Kennedy's true colors. He was dishonest. He was misrepresenting data.

He was just outright lying about conversations that he said happened, which clearly did not happen. And I think that's really interesting to me. In the beginning, when Kennedy was being confirmed, I think a lot of Republican, especially doctors in the Senate, held their nose and voted for confirmation, and it was a Democrat sounding a warning. But now this has become a bipartisan disaster, where now both Republican and Democratic senators are wondering why they have allowed this destruction of the credibility of what had been the world's most influential, most successful public health agency.

This is a disaster. And I don't think the country or President Trump in that matter can tolerate this. I think we've crossed the line now. He's going to have to go.

There's no question. Well, certainly reporters will be asking the White House that question repeatedly after today's hearings. I wonder if you can serve as a little bit of a fact check to some of what we heard. And I think it's important.

We heard a lot about vaccines. Secretary Kennedy making claims about the childhood vaccination schedule, overstating the amount of vaccines that children get, and talked about a number in the dozens, I'm not going to repeat it. You are a pediatrician. Can you give us a reality check on the vaccines and why the schedule exists the way it does?

Yeah, well, you know, every parent that has taken their child to a pediatrician, here's an explanation. Here are the things that we know have caused trouble or actually killed children in the past. These are the vaccines that will prevent those illnesses from moving off in polio to measles and German measles and hepatitis. And there's actually a very, very clear directive about what vaccines are added to the schedules.

It goes through multiple reviews by legitimate scientists, not conspiracists. And one of the things that's happening now is parents are getting really confused and losing confidence in these life-saving vaccines, which is just really a tragedy being fostered on us by Senator Kennedy, who among other things, by the way, has said that no vaccines have ever been tested properly. That is an outright lie. It's a misstatement of fact.

He's also said terribly incorrect things about the mRNA vaccine, which is the technology that's going to help us prevent the next deadly pandemic possibility. And this is something he's completely stripped of funding now. So he's left America and its children and its families way, way more vulnerable. And this is got to, we got to put a stop to this.

Dr, how do you restore trust in the CDC at this point? Where should parents go when they have questions? They should go to their pediatrician. They should go to the website of the American Academy of Pediatrics.

I think it's AAP.org and they'll get legitimate information, but their pediatricians will know what the score is. And hopefully the pediatricians of our country and the family doctors and the nurse practitioners know the truth and will help parents regain confidence in the life-saving vaccines that their kids need. But at the end of the day, we cannot have the world's most influential spokesperson, which is the head of HHS and the CDC, in that matter. We can have them falling into the hands of misinformation purveyors and conspiracies.

And Kennedy's got to get out of there. And that will allow a re-rooping, maybe a more legitimate doctor to run the show. All right, Dr. Red Letter, thank you so much for bringing us your expertise and your perspective on a really important day.

I appreciate it very much. Sure. Coming up, one of the Democratic senators who sparred with Secretary Kennedy in today's hearing joins me next on where the future of health policy and leadership goes from here. Plus, it's the economy and terrorists and new lackluster job data.

We're following multiple moving parts impacting President Trump's economic agenda, including his efforts to overhaul the Federal Reserve. Stay with us. You're watching me, the press now. Welcome back.

During that explosive hearing before the Senate Finance Committee, HHS Secretary Kennedy was also pressed on the Trump administration's cuts to Medicaid. Kennedy falsely claimed that there are no cuts being made to the program despite the president's signature domestic agenda bill making significant cuts to Medicaid. Kennedy also struggled to answer questions about what he's doing to keep health care costs down for seniors. Here's part of that exchange with Nevada Democratic Senator, Catherine Cortez-Masto.

How much are Medicare Part D enrollees expected to pay for prescription drug coverage next year? I think that's out of his end debate right now. How much are Medicare Part B premiums expected to increase next year? I don't know.

My concern is you can't answer the questions that the very agency has oversight over these issues and controls the letters to lower cost for seniors, and you can't answer that simple question. Joining me now is Senator Catherine Cortez-Masto. Senator Cortez-Masto, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it.

Always happy to join you, Kristen. Thank you. Well, it is great to have you here on really a monumental day. I want to start off by just getting your reaction to what transpired at the hearing.

You obviously are among the Democrats who were calling for Secretary Kennedy's resignation prior to today's hearing. This was a heated hearing. You were among those who had very sharp questions for the Secretary. What were your key takeaways?

Yeah, no first of all, Kristen, thank you for doing this. And today was a perfect example of why these oversight hearings are important. Why the secretaries have to come before us to talk about what they know or don't know about the jobs that they're doing. It is clear from the hearing today, both from the questioning of the Democrats and Republicans that Secretary Kennedy has no idea what the job entails as a Secretary of HHS.

Not only that, what we saw here is because he lacks that knowledge. He's dangerous because the policies that he is actually approving or moving forward with are causing chaos in our health care system, which is impacting the lives of so many people who need access to health care. And it's increasing costs for so many as I talked about at the hearing for seniors. Seniors are seeing increased costs to their Medicare, and he has no idea one that is happening or two what to do about it.

Even though as the administrator and oversight of HHS, he does have levers to really look at administratively what he can do to help seniors, but he couldn't even answer that question. So my takeaway is that he's dangerous and he shouldn't be in this position, and that's why I asked for him to resign. To follow up on that point, Senator, you seemed very frustrated that as you said he didn't have the information to answer the questions that you were posing to him. Was there a key moment for you that felt particularly problematic?

Yeah, there are a couple actually I will tell you. The first one was the fact that right now we as Democrats, and this is something I fought for in the inflation reduction act is to allow us to negotiate for prescription drugs for Medicare to lower those costs for seniors. And we started that process with the first 10 drugs, the next set of drugs that we were supposed to look at to really look at negotiation and lower those prices were some of these cancer drugs that are high cost. One of them is a skate tree to drug that is out there that has been there since 2014 available, but it costs the family $175,000 to get.

And big pharma has been making $29 billion off of this drug. We should be putting that in the drug put negotiation trons so we can lower those costs for families under the big beautiful bill that Donald Trump passed, they actually took that those drugs out of the tronch and said we're not going to negotiate those now. We're going to move those down the road where there's an exemption, we're not going to look at those now, which is a benefit to big pharma. But when I talked to Secretary Kennedy about this happening and what he was going to do to address so many cancer patients that need access to that drug and an affordable way, you can answer the question.

He didn't even realize that one, I'm sure he didn't even realize that the price negotiation is within his authority as the administrator, but two, he wasn't even aware that there was an exemption for these cancer drugs. That's one example of the many things he wasn't aware of what was happening with respect to healthcare in his country, that he has oversight over as the healthcare administrator. Senator, it was also particularly notable to zero in on the interactions with your Republican colleagues. Senator Barasso, who rarely breaks with President Trump said he was quote, deeply concerned by Secretary Kennedy's leadership and you have Senator Cassidy who would not answer direct questions about whether he regrets confirming Kennedy.

Can you take us behind the scenes? Are you getting a sense that some of your Republican colleagues actually regret voting to confirm him? Well, I can tell you, exactly from the questioning today, you're spot on, some of my Republican colleagues were asking him questions about the very policies he was making that disagree with science. I mean, literally, Senator Cassidy was asking him why he thinks that the COVID vaccine caused more deaths than the COVID itself, the disease and questioning him on his policies around vaccines because he has concerns that what Secretary Kennedy is doing is actually causing more harm across this country with his policies and his conspiracy theories around vaccines.

You see that happening with my Republican colleagues in the questioning and rightly so. The questioning that they were providing, but what was telling Christian was that Secretary Kennedy either was not answering the questions, he was doing a lot of rambling or he lied. He lied about certain facts and data and so it really, to me, it was a perfect example that anybody watches. This is not somebody who is a leader that governs an agency and knows how to lead an agency that you want calm, focus on the facts, how we ensure we're accessing healthcare in this country for everyone and lowering costs and making it affordable and make sure it's safe.

There's many things that we can do and he has a leveraged administrator outside of Congress to be able to do things. But he doesn't even know about the authority that he has. That is dangerous. And you're right, that's what we see some of the Republican colleagues in the hearing today were questioning him about.

Well, we'll continue to track the fallout there. I do want to shift gears a bit and ask you about government funding. It runs out. I don't have to tell you this at the end of the month, Congress has to pass that spending bill.

Let me ask you, Senator, what exactly do you want to see in the funding legislation and are you willing to shut down the government to get it done? Well, right now it's going to be up to the Republicans because they're in control, right? They're the ones that are going to dictate the next move whether the government shuts down or not. And as you know, it starts in the House.

And what I think all of us are looking for is to continue bipartisan negotiations around the appropriations work that we're required to do and to look to undo some of the harm that Washington Republicans have done to this country in the previous bill that they passed. So that's what I'm looking at. And I think it is about making sure that we're working towards a benefit of this country and Americans and not harming them and getting our job done as appropriators. And that requires bipartisan work.

But it's going to be really up to the Republicans in Washington right now, they're in control. So they get to decide how they're going to start off with this appropriations process. And I guess the question is, and what a lot of folks want to know is how far are you and your fellow Democrats willing to go to try to get the priorities that you want. Of course, back in March, you along with Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer voted for a key procedural vote, just to explain this to our viewers, basically paved the way for Republicans to be able to pass their stopgap spending bill.

And you released a statement, you said at the time Senator quote, I'm outraged by the reckless actions of President Trump, Elon Musk and Republicans in control of Congress. So I refused to hand them a shutdown where they would have free rein to cause more chaos and more harm. Is that how you see this battle today? And effectively, as a shutdown, more harmful than the Trump administration's current policies.

Well, let's look at the current policies. They're already shutting things down. And they're already causing harm. Perfect example is one, we just have the oversight hearing with HHS and the policies from this administration, causing harm around health care in this country.

And that's one example, the elimination of positions. So they're already deciding what kind of agencies they want to shut down, what they think is important. That's not the role. That's the role of Congress.

But the role of Congress also is to be appropriators. And I do think it is important that we, and we've already passed some appropriations in the Senate that we continue to work together and put back in those appropriations, some of the harm that this administration has done by taking it out illegally, right, through the impoundment act there. I believe they are violating the impoundment act. They don't have control of the purse strings.

We do in Congress. That's our role. And so I do think there is a way for us through the appropriation process to make sure the funding stays there that we're not harming individuals. But again, as you well know, in Congress, control right now is with Republicans, so they get to set the agenda.

And they get to start the process for the appropriations in the House and any continuing resolution. I think we are all waiting to see what they do. Oh, my goal here is that they continue down a path of bipartisanship, where we have already worked in the Senate with some of these appropriate bills. Senator, just put a fine point on it.

If you feel like they are not working in a bipartisan manner in a way that respects your priorities, the priorities of other Democrats, will you try to block any spending bill? Well, I don't know now until I'm going to speculate, but I do want to see what they what comes for. I think we are all looking to see whether they're working in a bipartisan way or not. And it goes back to what I've said.

You know where I stand in my past and what I'm always willing to do is stand up for the American people and fight for them and fight against this administration. But I also think American people, they want us to get the job done. They want us to work together. So I'm hearing from some of my Republican colleagues now that they want bipartisanship.

They want to work together through this appropriations process. And we're going to I'm going to hope see how they how it turns out at the end of the day. I'm hopeful that they're true to their word and their actions follow the words. All right, Senator Catherine Cortez, mask out.

Thank you for joining us. It's going to be a long month. So please come back again soon. We look forward to an update.

Thanks for joining us. Thank you. Up next, it's the economy. We'll get the very latest on today's biggest development as new data shows a dramatic slow down in hiring.

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Let's just take a step back. It's more context and clarity from the reporters you trust. Download the NBC News app now and subscribe for more. Welcome back, turning now to the other major hearing on Capitol Hill today about the future of the US economy.

As the Senate Banking Committee held a confirmation hearing for Stephen Moran, the president's picked to serve the Federal Reserve Board, and this hearing lawmakers signaled their concern about the president's pressure campaign to undermine the independence of the central bank according to critics. Moran, who has served as President Trump's economic advisor, committed to remaining independent if confirmed, but refused to commit to leaving his current White House position. If you're confirmed, will you resign from the Council? Thank you, Senator.

I have received advice from Council that was required as an unpaid leave of absence from the Council of Economic Advisers, and so considering the term for which I'm denominated as a little bit more than four months, that is what I will be taking. If as long as that is the advice of Council, I'll follow the law. Well, your independence has already been seriously copyright-based statement. You are going to be technically an employee of the President of the United States, but an independent member of the Board of the Federal Reserve, that's ridiculous.

It comes as the payroll company ADP reported today that the private sector created just 54,000 new jobs last month. That's a sharp decline from the prior months. NBC News business and data correspondent Brian Chung joins me now, Brian. Thanks so much for joining me.

So let's dive in and start with Stephen Moran's testimony today. He said he would take an unpaid leave from the White House if he is confirmed at the Fed. Talk about unusual that would be and doesn't potentially undermine his claims that he would remain independent. Yeah, because I've been watching the Federal Reserve for quite a while.

I have not seen an arrangement like that before where you have someone who's technically on leave from a position at the White House, but nonetheless, still by nominally attached to the White House, serving in a role that's supposed to be at an independent agency. That does raise a lot of questions over how independent he would be, and even if during that term, he wasn't corresponding with the White House or talking with the President, who by the way, has been very aggressively calling for substantially lower interest rates. There is the question of whether or not he would make decisions to try to earn himself back the good favor of the President when that four-month tenure is over, and he returns to the White House in that role at the Council of Economic Advisors. So there have been a number of reactions just in the fall out to this hearing this morning that have said, maybe this is going to be a conflict of interest, again, is that the legal counsel that he's received?

Is that something that he could even legally do while he's at the Federal Reserve? These are all open questions to what is already an overarching story of the Federal Reserve's independence, perhaps being undermined by the President's political will. Let's talk about that ADP report coming in below expectations. Lay out the bigger picture for us, Brian.

Does that give us any indication of what tomorrow's BLS, the official jobs report, will say? Yeah, Chris, and a lot of letters that we've just thrown at people there, ADP is the private payroll processor. In fact, a lot of people might notice on their own payrolls they see that particular acronym that refers to the private company that has a lot of insight, as you can understand, into the labor market and whether or not people are getting paychecks at all. They take measurements of how employment looks in the economy, but this is not what is seen as the most holistic measure of what job gains look like in any given month.

That comes from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the official government agency, which of course has been very much in public view after the firing of the former BLS chair after the last job support which showed substantial downward revisions to previous reports. We are going to get the official job support from the BLS, which still has an acting commissioner who the President has not appointed. That report comes out tomorrow, and because the ADP number came in so low, there are some questions over whether or not tomorrow's number is going to be disappointing as well. Wall Street has expectations for about 75,000 jobs who have been created in the month of August.

That's what they expect. That report to show tomorrow. That wouldn't necessarily be recessionary, but it would be a slowdown from what we saw earlier this year, and raised questions over whether or not this labor market could be slowing down Kristin. All right.

We'll all be watching and waiting very closely for those updated figures. Brian Chung. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

And still to come and update from the White House on President Trump's phone call with world leaders as the U.S. and European allies want to reach a deal on security guarantees for Ukraine. Keep it here. I'm the President now.

Welcome back. We want to turn now to the war in Ukraine. President Trump held a call today with Ukraine's President Zelensky and European leaders as the so-called coalition of the willing met today in Paris to assess security guarantees for Ukraine. Administration official telling NBC News President Trump urged Europe to stop buying Russian oil and increase economic pressure on China for helping fund Russia.

NBC News White House correspondent, Mimi Shausen, who joins me now, Yamiche, thank you for pulling double duty today. We really appreciate it. So we know that according to President Macron, 26 countries have pledged to protect Ukraine any commitment from the United States and any shift in what we are hearing from President Trump because he had been threatening sanctions if Putin didn't seem serious about the peace process and so far doesn't seem like sanctions are on the table. That's right, Kristin.

President Trump clearly becoming increasingly angry at seems at Russia or frustrated at least at Russia. We know that he said that he urged European leaders to stop buying Russian oil saying that the White House officials just told me that Russia makes about $1.1 billion a year sending oil and, I should say, selling oil to European countries, so the president really wants that to stop. When it comes to China, right now, we don't have any word from the White House that they're planning on not having those tears be paused. The president is not sort of making any sort of statement on that now.

What we do know, though, is that the president continues to say that he wants a CP in Ukraine and wants Russia to somehow be held accountable, but we also know that the president said after that Alaska summit that if he was frustrated and felt like there wasn't enough progress, then he'd wash his hands altogether. So, the farther we get away from that Alaska summit, I think the more and more we walk toward that line where President Trump might just get frustrated. Yeah. You know, it's such an important point, Yamiche.

And I was speaking to one of my European sources who expressed frustration with the fact that, look, several weeks have passed, President Putin is still not meeting with President Zelensky. Clearly no indication in my interview with President Macron who said he was incredibly skeptical that President Putin wanted peace. Can you paint the bigger picture for us here? The attacks have continued against Ukraine, effectively, as the peace process has it come to a halt or is it waning?

It's a good question. We know that President Trump has said he doesn't want boots on the ground. American boots on the ground. But he's also continued to leave the door open that we might have aerial support as America for this war and for whatever European sort of military action comes next.

So, the president is keeping that door open. But I can say to start talking to White House officials that there is definitely growing concern that Russia is not going to move this any forward and that Ukraine isn't making a sort of concessions that President Trump wants to see. But I think we'll go back to this idea that the White House is stressing that Russia makes $1.1 billion sending oil and selling oil to Europe. It really in some ways is showing you that President Trump is not only trying to pressure them militarily but economically.

And it's also interesting because at the last summit and leading up to the last summit, the White House is saying maybe there could be even economic relations with Russia if this war comes to an end. But President Trump is essentially saying all that could be off the table and he couldn't. At some point you say, look, Russia's going to do what they're going to do. Ukraine needs to figure this out.

We're going to be economic sanctions and do what we can. But at the end of the day, he continues to say that this is a really a war that started with him and shouldn't be a war that he will continue to sort of be part of. All right. Yamiche Alcindor.

Thank you for bringing us. All the angles coming out of the White House. We really appreciate it coming up after the break. The legal setbacks are piling up as the White House officially takes its fight over tariffs to the Supreme Court and the federal judge rules that the administration unlawfully blocked billions of dollars in funding for Harvard.

We're covering it all straight ahead. Welcome back. The White House is once again clashing with the judiciary after recent court rulings threatened to derail some of the president's most high profile and controversial moves late yesterday the administration appealed to the Supreme Court to preserve the president's sweeping tariff agenda after an appeals court ruled against them. Meanwhile in Boston, a federal judge ruled that Trump administration's cuts to Harvard's research funding was unlawful.

The Trump administration's also escalating its fight against federal reserve governor Lisa Cook, who's suing the administration challenging her ouster from the central banks board. And now the Wall Street Journal is reporting that the Justice Department has opened a criminal investigation into Cook over allegations of mortgage fraud. This all comes as some federal judges are expressing their frustration with the Supreme Court's handling of cases tied to the president's agenda. Some of those judges telling my colleague Lawrence Early, they want to see the high court and in particular Chief Justice John Roberts do more to defend the integrity of their work amid the president's harsh criticisms of the judiciary.

Joining me now is the panel Nicholas Wu, congressional reporter at Politico. Megan Haynes, former special assistant to President Biden and Sarah Chamberlain, president and CEO of the Republican Main Street Partnership, thanks to all of you for being here, really appreciate it. So Nicholas, let's start with this clash between President Trump and the courts. This is really coming to define his presidency in some ways as we see this president increasingly test the limits of executive power.

Very much is, and in some ways, it feels like history is repeating itself. We're seeing the same sorts of legal fights over administrative procedure and whatnot that we saw during the first Trump administration. But the question for Democrats really through all this is how they can communicate these sorts of court fights to the base. These things are drawn out.

They take time. They're in a way that they might not like in the end. And that's not something that can play necessarily well with a base that wants action now. Well, Megan, pick up on that point because I do think Democrats are trying to figure out what role they can play.

Do they sit back and watch and wait for the courts to weigh in? Should they be out there, you know, speaking out against some of these actions? What are you hearing strategically speaking Democrats are doing moving forward? I think Democrats are fighting on all fronts.

They're fighting right when the action first comes. They're fighting when the court rulings come out. And then when they be sort of overturning of hit actions come, I think they're showing that it's politicizing the courts. And I don't think that people like to see that overwhelming Democrats and independents do not like to see a politicization of the courts.

And I think that's really going to matter coming into the midterms because these independent voters are going to make up a huge difference in where people vote. So people who voted for Trump for president may not be voting for him come, you know, he's not voting for him on the midterms. And when you see he disobeying the rule of law and the Congress and the courts are right behind him. They're not going to be happy with that.

Sarah, what about that point? And what if President Trump prevails and then you have a Democratic president who takes office next? I mean, could that backfire? Right?

What are Republicans saying about that? Well, the Republicans, as we know, President Trump's single who's going to do this, as he's sent his first term, he pushed it. He was reelected. No offense to Democrats, but he defeated her.

So the American people are expecting this. We are not seeing in our polling that they're even concerned about this. They knew it was going to end up in the court system. It's going to end up in the Supreme Court.

So it's not that unusual. The Democrats are not making much hay way in the polling that we're seeing on this issue. Economy is a much bigger issue. Economy continues to be the top issue.

Yeah. Nicholas, we have to talk about this extraordinary hearing on Capitol Hill today. Secretary Kennedy grilled repeatedly over his vaccine denialism, the fact that he believes that and said today, he doesn't think that all vaccines or any vaccine is safe and really struggled in some moments to answer basic questions. How many people died during COVID, for example, he couldn't even confirm that yes over a million people died.

How do you think this hearing is playing? Well, we're seeing a lot of the frustration among Republican senators, many of whom seem to have had private assurances and agreements with Secretary Kennedy prior to his confirmation really rolled out. I mean, this was a nomination that took a lot of four times for Republicans to get through, a lot of political capital. And, you know, take the CDC director, for example, was someone that Kennedy asked it after roughly a month on the job the very first time that this became a Senate confirmed job.

And so, like, for Republican senators who don't want to see the vote rocked necessarily that much, this is not what they want to be talking about. Yeah, I mean, Sarah, talk specifically about the Republican senators, Senator Baraso, Senator Cassidy. They are senators. They're also doctors.

Yeah. And you rarely hear Senator Baraso break in any way, shape or form from the administration. So I found his words today to carry an immense amount of weight. What are you hearing inside Republican circles?

Because the White House right now is still saying, look, the president has confidence in Secretary Kennedy, but do you think he can last in this role? So the senators are getting very concerned. Polling is showing that especially suburban women, which we all have to win next year in reelection, they're starting to get concerned. I mean, we've all probably been vaccinated.

They want to vaccinate their kids. They have vaccinate their kids. It's like, where are we going with this? So that is it becoming a problem?

And you know, Senator Cassidy, I agreed with him. The signature event that actually, frankly, should have won Trump a Nobel Prize, they're undercutting that. I mean, look at what he did for COVID. I mean, yes, we lost too many people.

No question about that. But Operation Warp Speed opened back up the world. And now that's all being undercut by what's going on with Secretary Kennedy. So it's interesting times.

A lot of discussion amongst the Republicans. Do you think Secretary Kennedy survives this, Sarah? I don't know that yet. So it's an open question.

And yet you have Democrats almost universally calling for him to be fired or to step down. Meghan, do you think that there's anything they can do to actually force that? Is it a matter of getting more Republicans to publicly speak out and say there's just too much confusion right now about what parents should believe? I think that's 100% right.

I think they did a lot of that during the hearing today. The arrogance that comes coming from Secretary Kennedy, the pure disdain to be there, was so disrespectful to that body and so disrespectful to the process. Democrats and Republicans alike do not like to be disrespected in their own house and these hearings. And I think that really did not help him in his case.

The fact that he didn't know some very basic facts. And also people in DC are calling CVS and cannot get vaccines here. So there are people who are suffering real world consequences here that their constituents are going to start calling. So I think it's going to be really hard for the Republicans not to jump on, but Democrats on this one.

You know what's so interesting, Nicholas? You heard the discussion there today about Operation Warp Speed. This was central to the first Trump administration. And we know that President Trump has touted that as one of his great successes during the first administration.

In my conversation with officials at the White House, it's very complicated when they try to thread that needle. Politically speaking, does that create a problem for the president? I mean, like Sarah was saying, this is kind of the balancing act that they have to strike right now. This was kind of a signature achievement of his first term.

But at the same time now, you have this very mixed messaging on vaccines that's coming out of the administration. That is in part where the frustration among Republican members of Congress is coming from. They want unified messaging. They want to be all on the same page.

This is someone who will be in the crosshairs as Democrats try to make health care and meet your issue in the midterm elections. And yet, you know, they're all over the place on this. Yes, Sarah, you know, Senator Cassidy was very clear if he wanted there to be oversight of Secretary Kennedy. Do you think what we saw today's it or do you think he's going to call more hearings?

I think they're going to call more hearings. I'm going to be honest. I wish they call some hearings that are not publicized. I mean, it becomes a show when they're on TV.

I mean, I just thought what that is. But it should be behind closed doors. And let's find out what's really going on. Cassidy, he's a Senator.

He's also a doctor. And he has a lot of leeway on this and the senators are going to follow him. So I think Kennedy will be closed. Closed door hearings will take place.

Megan, about 10 seconds left. We're Democrats going to really focus on this in the midterms. I don't think this will be the number one focus. They got to focus on the economy.

That's the only way they're going to take back the house. Okay. All right, guys, great conversation. Thank you, Nicholas, Megan and Sarah.

With more meat the press now, but there is more news ahead on NBC News Now.