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Hello, welcome to the new books in Jewish Studies podcast. I am your host, Ari Barb Latt. Today, I'm blessed to be in dialogue with Miriam Reiner. She is associate professor at the Department of Jewish Arts at Barrie-Lion University in Israel.
We will be discussing her recently published book, Fragile Images, Jews in Art in Yugoslavia, 1918-1940. Published in Lighten, Netherlands, by Brill, 2019. Miriam, it is my hallowed honor to be with you in dialogue. Thank you so much.
Thank you, Ari, for inviting me and the new books in Jewish Studies podcast for showing interest in my book. And I'm really delighted to be with you here today. To begin, please tell us about yourself. Where did you grow up?
What formative events in your life? Cattleized the scholar that you had become as an adult. Well, I was born in the time when Yugoslavia existed, socialist Yugoslavia during the era of Titos rain there. I was born in a town called Sombar, which is in Bovodina, now this part of Serbia, where my grandmother, my father's side, my father's mother comes from.
But I was just born there. And when I was like about a month old, we moved to Zagreb, where my mother is from. And both of my parents, who were doctors, physicians, worked. And I went to school and finished the high school.
And after that, I moved to Belgrade by myself in order to study art history, or different reasons I wanted for society. At the academy, Art Academy, but I wasn't accepted. And then finally I decided to concentrate on art history in Belgrade. Maybe this is also a place to say that I had really hard time deciding which path to choose, especially coming from an artist's family.
I always thought I would be expected to study in medical school, but wasn't really interested in. And at the same time, there was always a lot of art and interest in history and Jewish subjects at home. And I myself was always artistic, green client. And finally, the choice of art history, which combines both aesthetic studies and historical studies, suited me the best.
Not just that, but from the very beginning, I started to connect between art history and Jewish topics. While I was in Belgrade, I was working part-time as an assistant curator at the Jewish Museum. And chose to write all my papers, including the final diploma work, which was then expected to be sort of research in Jewish topics, Jewish subjects. So that led me to continue the path.
And I moved after finishing my V.A. degree to Heidelberg in Germany, where I studied at the Jewish studies, faculty and art history. And from there, after a year, I finally came to Jerusalem and continued at the Hebrew University, finishing with M.A., getting my PhD, post-doctoral at the machine, in Holocaust studies, and finally, I got a job at the Jewish Art Department at Barilang University. So just to maybe add, while I was growing up, I was always exposed to two worlds.
I had always very good friends in school, at the university, non-Jewish friends. And also, I was very connected and active in the Jewish community, especially youth groups, Jewish summer camps, visits to Israel. So I had always these two worlds that I managed to combine and supplement. And I think this is largely shaping afterwards my identities and also encouraging me to write the book that will explore multiple identities of Jewish artists that I decided to research and write about.
What inspired you to write this book? What message do you hope to convey to readers? Well, honestly, I was in Israel when the Yugoslav Wars broke out in the 90s, and the country disintegrated. I was observing it with a lot of pain, but from distance, although my mother was still then alive, living in Zagreb, I was very worried.
So I think this was one way of also trying to understand better where I came from, what happened, and what is going to happen now afterwards after the country disintegrated, and the new countries actually appeared as independent countries, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia, Herzegovina, and so on. So this was one way to respond to what was happening, historically in front of my eyes. But the other reason, maybe more positive, was the fact that while these big changes were occurring in the region, suddenly sprung up more research and no interest in Jewish presence and history from the academic point of view, like a research, a new research developed in Jewish studies and Jewish subjects. It is not that it didn't exist before, before the 90s, before the war, but during the socialist Yugoslavia, there wasn't a general academic research or even support of such research in academia, because mainly of the ideology of, it was supported by communists and socialist society of that time, the ideology of brotherhood and unity, there wasn't supposed to be a difference between nationalities or not big differences in ethnic groups, and therefore specifically the research of Jewish history in the region, and specifically also Holocaust period, wasn't encouraged.
There were researchers inside the Jewish community, Jews and non-Jews, who were able to publish it through the publications that were issued by the Jewish Museum in Belgrade or the Federation of Jewish Communities that also was seated in Belgrade. This was sort of all right, there was a freedom inside the Jewish community to deal with such objects, publish the researchers, but this was mainly remained known to the members of the Jewish community, not to the larger audience outside of it, especially not in academia. So they started to change also in the 90s, and no research firm got in Croatia and Serbia, so my book in a way was part of this research that was encouraged by new conditions and new interests that developed after the collapse of socialist Yugoslavia. You know, archives opened and research of Jewish minority became a theme that was developed not only inside Jewish community and by Jews, but also by non-Jewish academics.
So I think these were like two triggers that prompted me to do this research and write the book that I did. What are the primary themes in your book? What story and story is that your book tell? Well, as art historian, I decided to use my skills as an art historian and actually write about a group of artists, reconstruct their lives and learn about their art, but at the same time, use them as a framework to explore the period that they were active in, social history of the period that they were active as artists as Jews, but also as artists, whether they were active in communities in Belgrade or Zagreb or Salavo, some of them also traveled abroad and studied and created art in Vienna and Paris.
So in a way, these were the main guidelines. I followed their development as an artist, but use them at the same time through that as triggers as base for exploring broader subjects that touch upon cultural history of Jews in the region and also broader history of the region before the World War I, between the wars, during the Holocaust and its aftermath. What were the most fascinating aspects of your research? Well, first of all, my research brought me back to the region.
As I mentioned, I lived by then a number of years in Israel already. I moved in 83, meaning like at least a decade before the war broke out there. And once I started to actively pursue this research, which was already at the beginning of the 21st century, 22,000 up to 2005, six, I was traveling back in the region, visiting all the places that I remembered from my childhood and the youth that I spent there. And maybe most fascinating aspect was actually meeting the people because I had to discover a number of artworks that were not in the museums or preserved in public collections, but rather in private homes in the families.
So I had the fascinating encounters with members of families that kept those artworks and were able to tell me about the artists I was researching. And these human contacts and stories were probably the most interesting for me during the period. And researched the book. What kinds of sources did you use and rely on in your research?
What were the challenges and limitations involved in working with them? Well, as I mentioned, there was an attract to find new works that were not so well known, some of them were and were already mainly stored at the Jewish Museum in Belgrade, but also in some other collections, especially those connected to the World War II. They were preserved in the museums of history, how they're called now. In the socialist Yugoslavia, they were called the Museums of Revolution.
So I visited all those places in order to retrieve the artworks connected to the artists I was researching. And of course, sometimes it was not so easy to find them, and difficulties in discovering them were probably the most challenging part of it. For instance, when I was looking into art created in valuivates at camp, which was a camp, we will talk about it afterwards for Jewish refugees. And the close, the dramatic close camp was run by Italian fascists.
I just by chance discovered the body of fantastic artwork in the archives, in creation archives, we were stored together with some other historical documents and papers that were preserved from the this camp by a man called Hinkle Gottlieb in his private archives, which is another fascinating story. Maybe I can tell it right now, since I'm already mentioning those names. Please kindly do so. OK, so Hinkle Gottlieb was one of the activist's writer, lawyer originally, and actually writer and Jewish activist from Zagreb, who was incarcerated in this camp.
As I mentioned, the objective calls in Kalevica in very soon became like a Kultortteger. He was responsible for organizing cultural activities in this camp, which was run in totally different ways than we usually imagine. Concentration camps, there was much freedom there in terms of self-government. They were incarcerated in a certain area, but inside the camp, they were allowed to organize their own, especially cultural life.
And there was a lot of activity in the camp. Maybe we can come back to it more in detail, but just to come back to this archival, found the finds that they discovered when they were transferred from Kralivica camp to another camp, where there will be a much larger concentration on the island of Jules from an entire area, a geote coast. Gottlieb gave a map, gave a folder with documents to the captain of the ship that was transferring them, with requests to give this material to a family, a race and family, at the other island park, which the captain eventually did. And they remained unknown in a house, an old house, on this island until early 20,000s.
When the house was renovated by the family that still owned it, this material was found and on the attic. And eventually the man who found it, she decided to write a book about it and transferred the entire material to the archives in Croatian archives in Zagreb. And when I went to look through this material, I found there are also original watercolors by an artist. I was actually researching his name is Ivan Rai.
He was also incarcerated in the same camp. And just a chance I discovered his artwork together with these other documents that Gottlieb believed safeguarding to the captain that eventually transferred them to the family that Gottlieb has. Gottlieb eventually moved to then still teilishtering from Italy, never came back to look for this material died very soon after he moved in 48. None of his family survived to claim these documents.
And as I said, they remained forgotten and hidden in the attic of this house. And there are some other stories like this. This is only one, but this is, this were the most fascinating aspects of his research that I was suddenly able to discover material that was forgotten or misplaced, not claimed, and eventually served up during my research. So this was might be one story from all this period that I was gathering material for.
What was your guiding principle in preparing this book? Well, as I said, I wanted to start from the individual stories. I'm always interested in individual aspect and how the individuals held through their own experiences, stories that actually reflect much larger happenings during their lifetimes, historical, social upheavals that they go through. So this guided me.
I wanted to really reconstruct those artists' lives, understand who they are, and through their lives and art and artistic creativity, actually understand better the period that they lived through and the region they moved, though, traveled, met other people and reconstruct this whole time through their lives and art. So I think this is what guided me, rather than opposite, starting from large historical events and questions and then pinpointing inside these events specific stories and individuals. As artists, I started the other way around. I started from the artists and their stories and by reconstructing them, I found out to them to a larger picture or try to recreate the larger picture that they were quite on.
Individual referred to at length in the book is Ivan of Ryan. Can you introduce us to him and tell us a bit about him? Yeah, sure. Now I mentioned him in connection to a crowd of itself and this folder that got lit safe, but he had really a fascinating background.
His stems from a Jewish family from Osiak, which is a smaller town in Croatia, but when he came to the decision of becoming an artist, the family decided to move to Zagreb. What is also unusual about his family is that actually both children, him and his sister were baptized, and he didn't really consider himself a joke. This is a story, this is an example that is not so rare for the time we're talking about due to the sometimes wish of the parents' generation to fully integrate in a society, surrounding society, they opted for baptizing their children rather than themselves, just their children. Sometimes this would happen also later when the between wars, when they were already sensing the danger stemming from rising antisemitism in Germany, and sometimes such decisions were then also due to feeling more secure or hoping to protect their children.
In case of Ryan, it was rather the wish of fully integrating in a society and not sticking out as a Jew, but I nevertheless included him in the book because this was one of the Jewish stories of specialists since he wasn't included in the decision about this baptizing, but rather his parents of trying to conform, trying to become a full member of surrounding society, but eventually as the history changes and conditions changed, he becomes more and more subjected to treatment of the other, and he started to feel as the other, and this is also very much expressed in his art, and eventually he is labeled to Jew, nevertheless that he was baptized and incarcerated in the camp, as I mentioned in the Adriatic Coast. But before that he had a fascinating development as an artist, he lived for a number of years in Paris, became a member of the so-called Paris School, which itself was a very international group of artists that worked in Paris prior to the World War I, and it between the two wars, and he became actually part of the International avant-garde, being in touch with the local French artists, but also non-local artists coming from other places to Paris, like Jilka Sken, that he knew and was influenced by a Jewish artist originally from Romania, Bulgaria, Vienna, before he came to Paris. In addition, the line was pretty much in contact with the Belgrade artists who also studied between the wars in Paris and adopted a very leftist political standing to the point that from 30s on, his artwork was dedicated to themes that preoccupied the European left, communist, he was especially shattered by the Civil War in Spain, a number of his artworks were depicting refugees coming from Spain to France, trying to escape the war there, the Civil War there, up to the point where he himself became undesired in France, dangerous as the leftist and expelled and returned to Yugoslavia, where he continues to be part of the avant-garde scene, both in Zagreb and Belgrade, he was in touch with well-known Serbian artist Lübica Tutsa Sokic, the exchange letters which I also found in the archives of the academy in Mabelgrade, and published actually for the first time their correspondence which sheds a lot of light these pre-war years and tensions these young people felt, up to the point where I said he fled already the beginning of the war in 1941 when the World War II started in Guslavia in April 41, he managed to escape to the coast where Italian fascists ruled and the conditions were easier for Jews and they were accepted as refugees and eventually incarcerated in camps that as I said had much more bendable and rules than in other places, his parents remained in Zagreb where eventually arrested by Ustasha sent to Yassanovats and perished there, now while in Kralivica he continued to paint and work and did actually number of works depicting his everyday life as a refugee which again important documents that show us and give an example of how these people lived in first-in rented room in Kralivica's refugees and later in the camp itself he paints these kitchens and still lives and rooms and portraits of the people he was in touch with, finally he was transferred as I mentioned all the Jews from camps in the coast where transferred to the larger camp in island on island Ra, Campod was the name of the camp just before the capitulation of Italy and once the Italy capitated in September 43 all the Jews from that camp who wished so were sort of evacuated transferred by Croatian partisans to the Croatian inland areas that were liberated by partisans by then and among them was also lying, the younger people Jews from the camp joined the partisan fight so they were lying and there are some still memories of some other partisans and artists who met him at that time but very soon after he was injured in a fight captured by Ustasha and eventually killed, so this was his story that as I said in other examples as well actually tells as much about Jews at that time period in general historical period of that time that was marking the time prior to the war between the two wars and then also World War II and the Holocaust so he's an example of such a story that I said I was interested in that can lead us through all these different changes in the historical world. Another person described at length in the book is Danielle Osmo, can you tell us about Elle?
Well Osmo, like Ryan, actually I sort of divided the all the artists I presented in a book in two generations and first generation there were artists like Iade, Moshev Iade, Daniel Cabino and Adolf Weile, these were the artists that were active immediately, when they studied even before the World War I started to be active immediately after the World War I in the new country, Kingdom of Yugoslavia that was founded immediately after the World War I in 1918 and they sort of presented a different kind of aspect in their art and their lives, they're different stories then Ryan Osmo and Bora Bado, which are younger generation, that actually was born at the beginning of 20th century but received their academic and artistic education during the 20s and 30s and developed as artists during the 20s and 30s. So their connection to art is much more close to international avant-garde as I mentioned with Ivan Ryan, so also is the fact that the case with Daniel Osmo and as the situation in Europe was changing for worse in terms of the rise in antisemitism and persecution of Jews in Nazi Germany and then further with the beginning of the World War I, Jews spreading in Europe elsewhere, those artists became very politically active and their political stand was expressed through their art. So this is the case especially with Osmo, who before the war adopted as his style German expressionism he had a chance to see works of German expressionist artists, some artwork that was brought to Belgrade and later also the graphic artwork he was exposed to inside of him, his birth that was actually the sound that he grew up and returned to after his studies in Belgrade and he was also active in a local avant-garde group called the in a local avant-garde group that was performing in like arranging theatre performance and also art exhibitions that included Jewish and non-Jewish artists and publishing even artistic books up to the very beginning of the war in Yugoslavia 1941, as I mentioned the war in Yugoslavia started in April of the last production of such an artistic book that they created happened in February 1941. So Osmo was on that side very active with the avant-garde group but at the same time since he was supported by the Jewish community during his studies he also felt a connection with the Jewish community and created artwork that was sometimes even invited and subsidized by the Jewish community such as the decoration illustration of the book dedicated to the memory of my monadeths, for instance that was published in 35 or decorations that were created for some celebrations inside the Jewish community that Osmo also created.
But his major and probably most tragic period of creativity was during the World War II. He was incarcerated in the Asenovats in the concentration camp run by Ustashak, notorious Asenovats were up to today, actually we know very little about daily life and especially cultural life which did exist but it's very rarely written about and researched since there is still a lot of discussion about the atrocities and numbers of people killed there that were not only Jews but mainly Serbs, Jews as well and Roman. So Osmo was incarcerated in Asenovats and was active in something called the surrounding workshop where a number of other artists were placed as well. One other artist of Jewish origin with him that worked in the same workshop was Slav Kobril, a sculptor from Zagreb.
And in the frame of that in Asenovats, Osmo created a number of works that remained preserved. It is thought that they were probably smuggled out from the Asenovats by one of the prisoners who was afterwards used in exchange with partisans, with such an partisans who exchanged prisoners and one of those prisoners mad and if I could which was exchanged in such a contact with partisans and it is believed that he was able to take out some of these Osmo's works. Osmo himself was at the end executed in Asenovats in 42 and these works remained as a really important testimony of the time he was incarcerated. Now the works themselves that he created there were divided in two different rules.
One, and this is something that I actually try to understand and suggest it's such a division that wasn't usually received like this until now until my book. Usually in social Yugoslavia his work, all of his work that was created in Asenovats was presented as an example of resistance, of his courageous standing as he was a member of the Communist Party prior to the war and as his anti-fascist stand. But as I try to show there were actually two kinds of works and the works that were depicting in quite benevolent way the work in the camp in different workshops on the fields and so on were created in a different style and with different material and sizes were large and I'm suggesting that they were actually created for an exhibition about the work of the Asenovats as a camp that was shown in Zagreb during the war by Ustaszeg government in September 1942 where exhibition was trying to show the Asenovats as an educational center and labor camp where people were sent in order to be re-educated. And actually the Asenovats actually was almost serious of these drawings were prepared in ink for that exhibition trying to show the kinds of work that were done in the Asenovats but with less stress on the difficulties, atrocities and harsh conditions.
At the same time he had another group of works that were non-official if those works we can call official then another group of works seemed to be non-official and he was actually creating landscapes by memory of Saba Yva, his town that he came from, some portraits of the people that he knew that were incarcerated with him and also landscapes of the coast of the summer resorts where he visited probably during the period between the war and he now recreated them while in camp by memory. Now the question is perhaps someone ordered them, perhaps some of the guards wanted to have such beautiful three landscapes hanging in his room and asked Osmo to paint them but this is quite unusual that in a sense of the concentration camp with a really very harsh conditions far away from the coast. The Asenovats is in inland quite further further away from the coast in the north that he by memory chose to depict such such landscapes. So this is one of the again examples of how through art if understood correctly, within the context of time and place created one can really understand better what was happening there and how he experienced this time during this period that he was a prisoner in the concentration camp.
So that's maybe about the Asenovats, sorry about the Osmo and his art. What were the books and monographs that impacted you most during your research process? Which previous studies are the Holocaust and Yugoslavia influenced you most profoundly? Do you have any quote-unquote favorite monographs or secondary studies?
Well I would like first to mention a woman called Nili Tamihaylovitch, she was the director of a Jewish museum in Belgrade where as I mentioned I worked as an assistant curator part time during my studies there. She did a really fantastic research about Jewish life customs and art in Yugoslavia between the wars and also after the world were true but as I said earlier such research remained mainly known inside the Jewish community. They did a number of exhibitions and she wrote also texts or various catalogs dealing with Jewish subjects in Jewish life. In Yugoslavia so definitely she was the first person in her publications where the first publications that influenced me to go in this direction.
In addition I learned very much from the books by the historian Ivaro Gogstein or my also now personally from our growing up in the Jewish community in Zagreb. So his research on Kaulokau and the Jewish life in the Jewish community of Zagreb was of her importance and her influence for me and then there is another historian from Belgrade, Milan Ristolich who did a fantastic research about the refugees but refugees coming to Yugoslavia from other countries starting from 1933 on first from Germany and then Austria and Yugoslavia but then also about the inner refugees, Jules trying to save themselves fleeing from Zagreb, Belgrade or Saravant mainly as I mentioned already to the Geotyoty coast where the Italian fascist rules ruled and the conditions were easier so he also published the beginning of 90s an important book about that subject and possibly also to mention Milan Kaulian in another historian from Belgrade who wrote about the rise of antisemitism in late 30s in Yugoslavia and his work not only also other monographs and historic books he wrote about the camp in Belgrade, Stuymish and some other topics that were also influenced on me. So there were a number of historians mainly that influenced me but again the choice of forcing artists and their stories came from my training in art history. Can you tell us about Borabaru?
Borabaru, he was again one of this younger generation belonging to Belgrade artistic community and the Jewish community mainly of Sephardic Jews. I didn't mention this before but also Osmo was Sephardic Jew and in general these two Jewish communities that existed in the region at the same time parallel before the world were one entirely separated after the war when one country was founded Yugoslavia they started to be much more in touch with each other especially younger generation where Zionism also sort of brought them together in joint activities. So Borabaru was also a member of the Sephardic Jewish family as most of the Belgrade Jews were also of the Sephardic origin. He himself as well as Osmo was active on the left side of the Jewish youth meaning that there were members of Hashemel Sa'il Movement which was very popular in Yugoslavia in the late 20s and 30s and they were going to summer camps where some of them were already getting prepared for making Aliyah immigrating to Palestine from at that time sensing the dangers that were spreading in Europe none of them did neither Osmo or Bora but this is like early Jewish education that they received and actually Bora did create some drawings at that time while visiting this summer camps in nature resorts in Yugoslavia and published them in Jewish magazines, Jewish yolks magazines.
So these were the early artworks that are known tying him to a Jewish background but in general Bora Bora was very much of the Belgrade artistic scenes of contemporary artists, Serbian artists largely influenced by French art by Cezanne and he himself as Ryan moved to Paris in order to complete his artistic education there and being touched with more modernist movements that were present in Paris between two wars. As Ryan he also got very involved with the leftist international movement and as Ryan started to react very strongly in his art to again civil war in Spain and was actually the first who started to paint and introduced the topic of refugees and as Ryan did also the drawings of Spanish refugees arriving to France what about imagined the refugees in Spain and created oil paintings depicting them running in the processions with horses and some of these paintings were sort of influenced by earlier art that was also involved with such topics like Cezanne, he also, on a way, don't hear French artists he also depicted such scenes of refugees 19th century, different period but this became one of his main scenes, main topics that he brought back once returning to Belgrade. Then as Ryan was eventually expelled from France as dangerous foreigners he returned to Belgrade in continued painting. Also after the world were two started and as a Jew he was then sent to labor work to enforce labor work cleaning the debris from bombing, Belgrade was bombed on April 6, 1941 this was the beginning of the World War II German soldiers, German baramach moved very quickly in and occupied Serbia and Jews of Belgrade were sent to clean the ruins and take out the bodies underneath the bomb houses and what about it was among them.
At the same time in the evening depicting such scenes in drawings and afterwards also in paintings and there is a series of works dedicated to that subject of people sitting in a bomb shelter or running away from the bomb city and sitting on the outskirts with the ruins in the background all these subjects were actually quite traditionally in a way also tied to previous Jewish art. I don't think that what about it was necessarily aware of it but just the choice of the topic of the refugees became one of his main subjects. Eventually he joined partisans left the city and was active in a very short-lived so-called Ujitzel Republic this was like a breed area from the Serbian partisans in a town Ujitzel where Bader Bader was also present and mainly active in preparing propaganda material for partisans supporting struggle against the Nazis and eventually also techniques in Serbia and creating posters that were of political meaning and propaganda purposes. After Ujitzel were actually as I said quite shortly and after they were captured and people active there dispersed he tried to go back to Belgrade he was captured and eventually brought as a prisoner to one of the Manica camp in Belgrade and executed there so he also after the war became one of those artists that we celebrated as Osamut was as a fighter's anti-fascist fighters and was memorized as communist and partisan rather than as a Jew and again as in case of Osamut a lot of this art that he created was presented only from the lens of anti-fascism and not necessarily connected to some traditions that would tie in little Jewish subjects or Jewish art so that's about maybe short time.
How were the Jewish artists examined in your study impacted by World War I how were they influenced by the Great War? So now we are going back actually to this first generation right because as I mentioned Osamut and that were active in late 20s and 30s that was already different era and they were reacting more to what was happening in Europe at large with a set of rising Nazism. The first generation was the Cabbila and Bailah and Pia that were actually more tied to the changes that World War I brought to the region and these were really huge changes because before the World War I we were talking about the Austro-Hungarian Empire that Bosnia and Habsegovina with the capital of Sarajevo and Zagreb were part of and on the other side there was a free Serbia Serbian Kingdom that was liberated already much earlier from the Ottoman Empire and there was a war between two sides so basically the artists that were active in Zagreb and Sarajevo were part of Austro-Hungarian Empire while Pia was active in Belgrade in Serbia he was on the other side of the map but the World War I with the collapse of Austro-Hungarian Empire and Ottoman Empire and also all the upheavals and changes in the in the Tsarist-Russia brought the changes in Europe and affected the foundation of the new country which became Yugoslavia the Kingdom of Yugoslavia so now we have a new situation that this new country is established and in terms of Jewish activities it was also the time that actually Zionism as a movement started to become much more pronounced in this new country there was a federation of the Zionist youth active in Yugoslavia and some of these artists especially Kabbina and Adolf Weiliff in Zagreb became influenced by Zionist ideology and some of their art was connected to it at the same time they were very much rooted in the life of the places where they came from and the painted also subjects that were not responding to the Zionist ideology in case of Kabbina from Sarajevo this was very much pronounced with his ties to the Sephardic movement Sephardic life memories of Sephardic life during the Ottoman period and some of his most beautiful artworks depict scenes from Sephardic Jewish life like celebrating Zabath lighting the light where not candles but the oil lamp as was tradition in Sephardic homes and eventually also depict life on the old sturkish market in Sarajevo with different ethnic groups existing there living side by side Serbskratz and Jules Weiland in the same time was active as I mentioned in a Zionist movement and painted influenced by the Zionist ideologies mainly in East European traditional Jules that he saw in Vienna and adopted this idea that also early Zionists were writing about and painting also in their Jewish artists in other European centers where paintings such scenes of Jewish life in Eastern Europe, traditional Jewish life in Eastern Europe presenting this as true Judaism as something that will inspire the Renaissance of Jewish culture the Zionists were aiming to and aiming for and Abilah actually started out with such drawings of East European Jews that he met while he was studying in Vienna mainly refugees from Eastern Europe that found during the World War I shelter in Vienna but eventually he also as a forest engineer that he studied or for he studied not just the art and the academy but also forest engineering also sort of reflecting the problematic stand of choice of becoming an artist in Jewish families that were always afraid that this will not bring decent income so some of those artists also had to pursue other professions especially this is a case with Weiland who studied at the same time for forest engineer and as a forest engineer he actually started to live in and encounter garlings in Croatia, villages, in the wooded areas where he was working eventually and paint landscapes and local people so he had these two entirely opposite directions one that was leading him towards the Jewish subjects and as I said early Zionist influence and the other that was entirely connected to local landscape, local non-Jewish peasant life that he also felt close and depicted in his art so I think this is like maybe the difference than the later generation which was much more politically involved and aware of dangers of queuing already in Europe and threatening them this early artist that developed in the wake of World War I and the foundation of Yugoslavia were much more polarized between Jewish and non-Jewish subjects or Jewish Zionist and Sephardic in the case of Kabbilah. Yadya of course is a completely different story he is mainly known as a politician, Tito's right hand right this is a Moshe Pia, this main definition if we think about him as a person but originally he studied art and not just in Belgrade but also in Peris and was very much influenced by traditional academic art in both places also some impressionist influences but mainly early impressionism Edward Manet and Japanese influences entered his art and what is very maybe significant for his early artistic creativity he created a number of self-portraits that sort of follow his development which was very much influenced by again social situation and political stand that he was adopting as well going more and more to the left more and more adopting communism and these changes are visible also in the way he portrays himself in the artwork.
Maybe just one comment about this leaning towards the left it's in a way understandable because it reflects the general atmosphere in Europe that was being then very much divided between supporters of fascism and antisemitism, straining up as byproduct and the opposing the ones that are posing it that were leaning to the left and all the Jews that were connected to cultural life, art and in general this time that I'm mentioning in a book we're usually leaning towards the left as a source of stand and opposition towards the threat coming from the rise of fascism and later Nazism so this is the reason why we actually also see all these artists like Osmo and Borabado and Biade identifying with such leftist ideologies. What were the different interpretations and manifestations of Zionism in Yugoslav Jewish art? Yeah well Zionism came quite late to Yugoslavia as I said because Yugoslavia didn't exist until the World War I and was founded only after the World War I actually the first context with Zionist ideology happened in Vienna because in Vienna a number of students from the region went to study especially from Belgrade and Zagge but also from especially from Sarajevo and Zagge but also from Belgrade and of course Vienna with the Hethsel and Zionist movement developing there was very influential so the student organizations that sprang up among those students they were organizing student organizations while studying in Vienna to such student organizations existed at the beginning of the 20th century already one was of the Sephardic students called Esperanza that were mainly joining students from Belgrade in Salemur of Sephardic origin the other was Balgiora that was mainly Ashkenazi from Zagge but it was also a mixture of both especially in Balgiora there were also some of Sephardic students from Salemur and Belgrade these were the first contents with Zionist ideology that these students then eventually then brought back to the country once after the World War I Yugoslavia was founded and what is probably the most unusual aspect of this development is that for a number of people Zionism and Yugoslavism sort of overlap because um Zionism as an or as a bridging over all the Jews trying to unite especially in case of Yugoslavia Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews on the other hand Yugoslavism or ideal of Yugoslavia's one country was also trying to unite different nations living in the region Slovenians, krods, Serbs into one country so in a way these two ideologies supplemented each other and the Zionists, the early Zionists in Yugoslavia then were usually also very much Yugoslav oriented rather than being pro-Krods or krods Serbs on so this kind of remained and still in a socialist Yugoslavia this sense of connectivity of the entire region for Jews was very important because very often is my own example show I was very easily moving around from one place to the other and being a member of Jewish community of the entire Yugoslavia I felt at all both in Belgrade and both in Zagreb and in Zagreb and in Sarviva which wasn't always the case where national groups living in specific regions like grods Serbs or Vosniaks living in Vosni and Herzegovina so this sort of internationality in the parentheses for the area of Yugoslavia was quite specific for Jewish minority the ability to move around but not always and not only this was again connected to the Zionist ideology that often remained in terms of cultural Zionism they were in favor of renewing Jewish life creating this new jewel that is also part of the general Zionist ideology but without necessarily thinking of living and moving and making Aliyah immigrating to Palestine very few actually really left before the world were before between the wars were ideological reasons and remained active as anist in the Jewish communities Yugoslavia. In addition to the Zionist activists as I mentioned already few times there was a very strong Sephardic movement especially centered in Sarviva where the main motivation was rehabilitation and research and continuation of specifically Sephardic tradition a group of intellectuals was very active in Sarviva and as I mentioned Cavita was eventually part of that group painting painting subjects connected to Sephardic life and this was unusual development not always known in other regions of Europe because Sephardic community was smaller than Ashkenazi and is probably also less known especially for the region of Yugoslavia the activities only recently there is no research and publications dealing also with that aspect so it's not all Zionism but also Sephardic national movement that sort of marks the Jewish life in between wars and Yugoslavia.
Can you tell us about Sarviva's central Sephardic synagogue Il-Kao Grandy? Yes well Il-Kao Grandy was a beautiful large synagogue that was built kind of very late it was built between the late 20s and early 30s it was finished in early 4 and in a way it was really an expression of this Sephardic Jewish identity that was very prominent and important in Sarviva and it tried to connect all the Sephardic Jews in Sarviva in one building in one synagogue which was also also planned as a community center with a large library in additional community rooms until then there were a number of smaller synagogues in Sarviva including the old synagogue from the early period 16th century that was still in yours and still exist actually today renovated in later times but still existing today as the Jewish Museum in Sarviva and time came as the local Sephardic community felt to build a new majestic and important building that will present the Sephardic life and Sephardic community in Sarviva as did such already large synagogues in other cities especially in Zadreb and in Belgrade central synagogues choral synagogues. There was a lot of discussion about building the synagogue whether it should be modernized up to the point of including choir and the organ which was eventually put in but never used or just a place was planned for it but it was actually never used. The style that was built in was a mixture of contemporary also a little bit belated and iron of wall style but it's very strong oriental influences in order to express the Sephardic identity.
A lot of money was invested in this synagogue and interior design was also following the then very popular oriental design that was used not only for Sephardic synagogues but actually mainly for the very beginning of occupation and establishment of the independent state of Croatia on the territory also Bosnia and Herzegovina and Sarviva the synagogue was looted and very much damaged at the very beginning of the World War II and after the war it was actually given by the Jewish community whatever was left in ruins to the city partially knocked down and rebuilt in a modern building with only remaining original dome that's still left until today exists about this modern building that is built at the same place. So it's an example of also wish of a community to express its identity and also tragedy of the time that it was built efforts to create it and build it and also then destiny that it experienced as other buildings artwork and of course people and members of that community. Can you tell us about Paul and Johanna Lutzer? This is a special story Paul and Johanna Lutzer were actually not originally from the region of Yugoslavia but from Vienna Paul had a connection through family his sister was married to one of the ladies and girls but they came fleeing with Yarna in 1938 and actually they fled Vienna on a boat together with a group of young Kashometsayur members from Vienna and Bratislava they came on a boat on Daniel and in hope that they will save themselves by fleeing from Serbia to Palestine where all the group was hoping to get as well the plan was to arrive with the boat to the border with Romania enter with Daniel to the Black Sea and that issue of the settlement of Jewish settlement in Palestine will send a boat to save all those Jews and bring them eventually to Palestine.
The problem was that this is the story that is well known and researched it's named after the place where they eventually got stuck the name of the place in Serbia is Cladova it's called sometimes Cladova transport they came in winter and they had to wait because the Daniel was frozen they couldn't continue their journey to the Dead Sea and eventually when it was possible to go through the boat from the Palestine and there was supposed to be sent to transfer them didn't come and didn't come and these Israeli researchers in Al-Kastur if it's wrote about it they claimed that they were afraid or didn't want to too much interfere with British government then in Palestine and there was also a limitation of how many immigrants was allowed to bring on the British side and they decided not to send a boat which meant that all these people were stuck in Serbia and among them were also Johanna Lutso and her husband Powell Johanna was originally a graphic artist it worked in Vienna as an artist but later also a fashion designer luckily for them this relative that they had was very much involved in helping refugees helping Jewish refugees coming from Germany Austria to Yugoslavia trying to lead to Palestine or get the visas for other places his name was Shima Shpitzel he was actually employed by joint and Pitzam and he helped them to get off the boat the rest of the people were moved to a camp in found called Shabbat and where actually once German arrived all shots to that only few decided to walk from Kadevog down to Macedonia and Greece and eventually managed to get to Palestine but very few survived majority of people from these boats were executed but Johanna Lutso and Powell were safe by Shpitzel and eventually I never managed to discover how they managed to come again to the coastal area to the area under the jurisdiction of Italian fascists and they found themselves in the same town Kadevica that I mentioned already in the same camp where Ivan Rang and Gottlieb in Gottlieb where and what is so unusual for Johanna is that she kept diaries this is another time that I run during my research diaries are kept in Yad Vashem she eventually survived the war with her husband and they moved from liberation partisans where they took part of in a partisan struggle with creations they eventually moved to Italy and from Italy to Palestine and she brought with her all her artwork documents, passports and these diaries and eventually when she died her family donny did all this material to Yad Vashem so in these diaries she was actually depicting describing the life in Valibitsa camp in very detailed about food they ate books they read um plays they played the theater plays like one of the theater plays was the pulling spiel it was planned by Inko Gottlieb called the trunk from Persia where Queen Esther was imagined visiting different camps in Europe and Johanna loads of participated also and was supposed to participate in this poem celebrations by singing songs in Yiddish so she was an active member of all this camp and as other Yugoslav Jews there transferred to rap and from the Arab island to deliberate territory of artisans in Croatia where they discovered that she is a trained artist and included her in the propaganda offices called Alkitbrop administration and propaganda offices run by partisans and she actually ended up painting portraits of Stalin and Marx and Titok and creating posters for partisan schools until she received the permission to move towards the end of the war already with other refugees to Italy and as I mentioned from Italy they came eventually to Palestine so this is another unique story that we can learn a lot about conditions of Jewish life artists individuals in this turbulent time not only Yugoslavia starting with Vienna refugees arriving from Austria to Yugoslavia ending up even being active in a partisan movement and surviving in that way so she's really a very unique story can you describe Yugoslavia's social history during the 1920s and 1930s what were the most important internal and external events impacting Yugoslavia's history in the interwar years? Well Yugoslavia was founded with a lot of enthusiasm it was actually called first a kingdom of Serbs, grads and Slavians giving an equal status of all these nations that live in the territory but eventually a lot of these hopes were disappointed because what happened was that Serbs overpowered the other nationalities leading there and mainly because the king and Belgrade and Serbian dynasty was the ruling dynasty set the aims and the atmosphere of countries politics, crowds were from the very beginning feeling not recognized not giving equal chances and there were a lot of drives and a lot of tensions between these two nationalities between crowds and Serbs and by the time progresses and we are advancing from the 20s to 30s the situation became worse and worse political tensions and assassinations in parliament up to assassination of the king himself in the 34 and situation deteriorated more and more to the point that eventually after King's assassination and establishment of the new government the new government even signed the pact with Hitler as was the case with the Hungarians, Lakia and Bulgaria they were hoping to avoid being attacked but in a way they supported also in such a way the active powers of Axis it was a lot of opposition to it there were big demonstrations eventually already we're talking about 1941 and Hitler decided to in spite of this pact it was signed and then Anand decided to attack very viciously by bombing Belgrade and starting in that way World War I in this area which was then dismembered and occupied by all the forces surrounding it so actually they were not only Germans who occupied part of also Croatia but also part of Serbia, Slovenia but there were also Hungarians and Bulgarians as I mentioned many times by now Italians they occupied the Adjurakic coast and the south so Yugoslavia was dismembered only in the center there was the formation that crowds established the stream crowds that actually were already from the 30s leaving immigration was the sham movement came back and established the independent state of ratio with their fascist ideology that was leading so this was just shortly description of a country that actually saw a lot of tension political pension from the very beginning of its foundation eventually in 29 Yugoslavia as the name was introduced first time until then was there as I mentioned the England of Slovenia served as crowds and and also dictatorship from 29 on actually introduced dictatorship so in all this hence time and interior trouble Jewish life actually flourished and this was short period but very eventful and as I mentioned by talking about all these different artists we heard that there were movements zalnyz zafaric activities among the youth Jewish youth in the area that was organized and met regularly in different cities connected and created the sense of community not just divided by the cities and regions but in the area of the whole region so yes as often happens in the times of upheaval there is a lot of creativity and especially when we're looking at the art created that I concentrated upon these examples of Jewish artists we see a lot of doubt a lot of input a lot of art and interesting stories that accompany these artworks that were depicted in a book what were the unique features of anti-Semitism in Yugoslavia? Comparing to Eastern Europe there wasn't any anti-Semitism in the form of physical attacks, programs, all the horrible things that accompany history of Russian and Eastern European Jews as I mentioned already the area was divided between history between two empires, Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman so the history of anti-Semitism in Austro-Hungary is actually then also relevant for the region of future Yugoslavia, Ottoman Empire has its own story and history so there wasn't any tradition of anti-Semitism similar to maybe Eastern Europe in the region of Yugoslavia but as we are approaching again the changes in Europe, rise of fascism and Nazism and spread of anti-Semitism at that time late 20s and early 30s there are examples of growing anti-Semitism as well in the region that came mainly at the beginning through your publications of anti-Semitic articles in the newspapers pamphlets, particles of the Elders of Zion so we're published a number of times in Croatia and in Serbia in 30s not before but at the same time the government was always ensuring the Jewish community that they are safe, that they will protect them, that will not happen to them the same as it happens somewhere else in Europe at that time as what's happening somewhere else in Europe at that time namely Germany in early 30s nevertheless there were also then as closer as we are coming to the war late 30s there were new laws that eventually excluded Jewish from participating in economic and commercial life in the country and also introduction of nowhere was clauses with exploded Jews from ability to study freely in the high school at universities and these were really two main obstacles very severe they had harmed Jewish life and we're talking now already about late 30s what maybe also was appearing at that time where number of pamphlets, caricatures and visual material that I was mainly interested in that showed Jews either as threatening from the commercial point of view ruling the world fear of connection between Jews and Freemasons that was one of the subjects of such books and pamphlets published or on the other side Jews being affiliated with Bolshevism and bringing the threat of the communism and leftist ideologies so these were the main expressions of Anglo-Semitism of course until the war will too broke and massive than deportations and annihilation of Jews occurred in occupied territories and in independent state of creation so there was anti-Semitism but maybe less pronounced than elsewhere in East European Jewish communities but it still existed and it grew with time especially as we're coming closer to late 30s and the beginning of the war world war. Can you tell us about the circumstances and consequences of the bombing of Belgrade?
Well Belgrade was bound as I mentioned at April 6, 1941 this was really the beginning the sign that the World World War II came to Yugoslavia. The city was devastated the bombing was very heavy and what I mentioned earlier the main artist that was involved with reacting to the bombing and the and destruction was born about right I mentioned that it was them living in Belgrade and experienced these early stages of the war and felt a strong need to document to depict the lived testimony of what he participated in saw and was forced to work in the cleaning of the ruins with other Jews but also depicted fleeing from the city which included Jews and non-Jews of course during this day of having a bond city and also after because there was a destruction of buyers everywhere and this was the shock way of starting the World War II again was experienced by many Jews and non-Jews. What new perspectives does your research reveal regarding the Yacenovats concentration camp? As I mentioned when I talked about Osmos artistic development I think the main neuroprescognitive is this less less research and less known day-to-day lives in the camp not killings atrocities and hardships that usually early testimonies reveal of the survivors and also a number of historical research appear but rather this day-to-day life and especially culture, cultural life connected to art as I described activities in this ceramic workshop and also some other aspects that I didn't really research in depth but I don't mention such as concerts and sport games and some different ways of organizing the life in a camp which in other places are better researched I will give an example maybe Teresa in Stadgato where we are aware of a really very elaborate cultural life that Jews were able to develop there in terms of schooling the children and art classes art created at that time and all of such activities are important in order to understand fully the life of people incarcerated in the camps there's spiritual resistance mainly strength in being able to express themselves in such ways in impossible conditions and this was the case also with the sentiments with as I said is usually not mentioned or not enough research deal so I think that this one example that I took is more in depth research that I did about this ceramic workshop where Osmore and Brill were active is a sample of that.
Euretus follows on page 317 regarding the Carl Hedmetsack camp. William Selavich celebrations of 1943 were an opportunity to stage a variety of musical and theatrical pieces and to laugh through tears at one's own existence. Gottlieb Kett the celebrations program which is demanded was submitted in advance to the Italian authorities for approval. For the festive occasion he wrote a moving one-act play in verse entitled H.
Runk for Persia whose performance was forbidden at the last minute in the program given to the Italian censor. Gottlieb described in short the plate's content. The plot evolved in one of the camps barracks to which, miraculously, is brought a trunk from Persia from which emerges Queen Esther, a character connected to, Jewish tradition from whom the prisoners should draw solace about their present state of being and hope for a better future. Despite this explanation the piece was much more subversive.
While appropriate for poorie making fun of the prisoners' day-to-day existence, hunger or cases of theft and black marketing in the camp, this unique play also raises the voice of anger and affirms readiness to fight back to never forget and to call for those responsible to pay the price. Queen Esther visits them in order to console their suffering in Croatia, but thus it only briefly has to do the same in many camps scattered throughout Europe. Written in the spring of 1943, Gottlieb's a trunk from Persia clearly reflects awareness of the Holocaust's tragic dimensions and also a feeling of unity in victimhood and a wish for revenge. Can you elaborate on this passage?
Yes, this is really an example of such an activity usually, unique activity in camps usually overseen or not dealt in depth by historians and me as seeing myself as cultural historian and art historian, of course, such examples interest very much. The actual play was written and there are manuscripts of it that survivors preserve and save and there is an example in Jewish Museum in Belgrade nowadays and one here in Jerusalem in something called an Archives, that's an archive founded by ex-Yugoslav Jew called Yakhil Evanshau through many years collected archival material dealing with the other stuff, Jewish community and nowadays the archives are part of a national Jewish library. So there are two copies of this play. One is called a trunk from Persia, the one here in Jerusalem, the one in Belgrade is actually titled In order not to forget and I'm not sure I would say that the original title was a trunk from Persia and in order not to forget it's already passed Holocaust interpretation and addition of this other title.
But the fact is that this play wasn't shown although there is a text and obviously there were people already practicing for different roles of the play. The play wasn't shown because everything that they from the cultural activities that they prepared in Caledica camp was first supposed to be shown to Italian officers, the administration of the camp in order to get permission and the censor forbid it, they found it too subversive and they decided to not allow the production of this play. So what is left is the manuscript and of course manuscript is very important and as you read now in this passage shows in indeed to what extent people were aware of their situation, they were aware of situation of other Jews in other camps scattered through Europe because as I write and do many times the war started in Yugoslavia quite late comparing to the rest of Europe also persecution of Jews started later so that Jews living in Yugoslavia before the war broke out in the region were very well aware of what is happening. They were reading newspapers, newspapers coming from Europe especially without many of them were German speaking from home or of course read, newspaper in German and were very much aware of persecution that was happening all over.
Not just that they themselves fled to Italian zone where they found safe haven but as I mentioned for instance in the case of the line his parents remained old parents remained in Zagreb and were eventually deported to Yassanovac and killed the same was the case with the godlyps, son or young son was killed earlier by Ustasha and his parents perished and they were a winner that many people do not share their destiny of being saved in Italian zone and Italian camp but were rather much more persecuted and also perished and this also comes through this play and of course the idea of day after how they will cope with the losses and how they will cope with a tragic dimension I think our coast brought to the Jews so it is really a very important play that was written by Inko Gottlieb who was as I mentioned writer. Nowadays there is a renewal of interest in him and there is the rare books published one other manuscript that he prepared during the war time is published now for the first time in Croatian in Zagreb and there is a rising interest in his activities also before the war and especially during the World War II so definitely this play that already as I right as I mentioned that there is this new research springing up and developing there is also an article written already about this play that Inko Gottlieb prepared for a war-poor celebration in Karanism. What is your book's contribution to refugee studies? Well mainly this chapter is dealing with with the Kradavitsa and Italian zone and dealing with refugees coming from the north of the country maybe from north of Croatia but also other other parts of Yugoslavia they were trying to come to the south and find more safer zones to live and they were coming as refugees they left their homes often without anything or just with the suitcase and they were coming with the refugees not just refugees from the region of Yugoslavia but especially in Kradavitsa there were refugees from Germany and Austria and Czechoslovakia also arriving to this area under Italians in order to save themselves and they were comparing to Yugoslav refugees, Yugoslav Jewish refugees in much harsher conditions they were already running fleeing as refugees for a number of years often without any financial means anymore and they were mentioned in Dairis by Johanna Lützer and also by memoir in memoirs of one of the youngsters who was then 18 year old boy who was himself with his parents in Kradavitsa Bronkopolich this is name he published memoirs in the 90s about his life before the World War II and joined the World War II where he found himself as well first as refugee in camps in Kradavitsa and afterwards joined the partisans so I think these stories of these camps where they actually were incarcerated as the refugees of the war rather as jus is an important contribution it's not that these were not described earlier and especially as I mentioned this book about refugees by Milan Lützerlich that I am much on south with and based myself on his research but this again specific examples life itself in a camp organization of a life in a camp cultural life in a camp these are all sorts of my research can you tell us about figure 9 10 depicting Zorinsky's castle in the Kradavitsa camp okay you are asking actually the comparison right between the castle the barred window and even the rhymes window with bars which is an interesting interplay yes yes I was going to ask you about comparing that with eigen rhymes window yes yes yes it's an interesting interplay of reality and fiction I was yeah the photograph of Zorinsky castle is mine I visited in 2010 took a picture of this building which because I realized that even Ryan was using the same window with the bars in his drawing now in the photograph and in the actual building we're talking really about the castle that is reminiscent it's an historical building that exists in the town and it has originally such it's a first floor window it has originally such barred window as part of the architecture of the entire place but when a lion uses it he puts in front of the window a little table a dish with a spoon and a cup and it actually turns this window into a cell into a prison cell as that this is a barred window of a prison cell with just a bars furniture this little table with a with a cup and a spoon and a ball and he himself wasn't in prison not at this stage he lived then in Kradavitsa by renting a room from the locals as other refugees lived in the towns on the coast only afterwards they were incarcerated in a camp when there was a pressure on Italians to deal with the Jews actually there was all the time pressure on part of Germans and also shared to send them Jews that came as refugees to Italian area in order to execute the final solution and send them to extermination camps but Italians find a way to refuse that by saying okay we will now organize ourselves camps and Jews will be gathered from these little towns on the coast where they were allowed to live and incarcerated in one place which then become this camp in Kradavitsa but at the time that Ryan Jewell this picture he was actually living in the town of Kradavitsa as all the other Jewish refugees by renting rooms from the locals they were not allowed to leave the town they were not allowed to move from one town to the other but they were allowed to walk freely in the town itself so he saw this building and he saw this barred windows but then he transferred it into a picture that he depicts actually sort of a prison cell because that's the feeling what he had he was expelled he had to flee from Zagreb he was now caught in this little town on the dramatic coast without ability to leave anywhere else he was not free he was marked as a Jew and he felt as in a prison so that's what happened here that he was the actual picture of a barred window in order to express his inner feeling rather than reality so that's the comparison that I tried to show the real window of actual architecture in Passel that exists until today there which was not a prison and is transferring of that window in a drawing that sort of depicts the prison cell but again it was not him physically imprisoned but rather emotionally and mental can you comment on the participation of Jewish artists in Yugoslavia in the partisan struggle can you describe their role in the establishment and foundation of a new communist Yugoslavia okay so first of all I think this should be given a little bit as a background number of Jews joined the partisan movement there were about 5 000 Jews that joined the partisan movement simply because they felt that this is the only way that enables them to stay alive or to die with dignity with by fighting and not being killed in a camp or deported so this is already one unusual comparing to other places aside from Soviet Russia where there was also massive Jewish participation in a strike in a war in partisans struggle against the Nazis this is probably a unique example in Yugoslavia now among the artists I mentioned already few examples one was bought a battle who joined the partisans at the very beginning and was active in the Ujitsa and this read down Ujitsa Republic as they called it where he was actively creating propaganda posters and art in support of partisan and communist ideology and the other one was a Hanawuza who by chance great although Austrian by origin a graphic artist and fashion designer ended up in Croatian partisan territory and was active in Agitrop which was a name for propaganda offices of the Croatian partisans in town called Glina where he was in charge of making posters also and portraits of Tito and other communist leaders like Stalin and Marx and also drawings and posters for children schools because partisans organized in great territory schools for orphaned children for village children in the area children in the areas that they kept in under their control and Johanna was creating posters or drawings for decorating classrooms with slogans and inscriptions that were actually part of partisan ideology that were decorating for instance we are happy the right armies arriving or also saying that were clearly meant to remind the children to keep clean wash their hands and keep their surroundings in order so they were also drawings and slogans like this so these were the main participations active participation of artists in partisans and of course Mosapia was one of the very top politicians and very high ranking in a partisan movement as I said close to Tito he joined the war initiated all kinds of important activities dealing already with foundation of the new country of new social Yugoslavia but then at that point he was not an artist anymore he stopped painting he was actually incarcerated in prison in kingdom of Yugoslavia in 1925 already and was serving 14 years of prison until the break of Yugoslavia and beginning of the world war one and from that prison time there are still some joyings and paintings but very few so although he himself stopped still himself as an artist especially after the world war one joined the war itself it was very active in one of the leaders of partisan movement but didn't really create art can you comment on the oblivion for getting an amnesia about Jews in Yugoslavia and concentration camps and Jewish artists in Yugoslavia's concentration camps after world war two in this context of referring to Yugoslavia after world war two referring to Holocaust victims as quote unquote victims of fascism without referring to them as specifically Jewish victims in this context what became if anything of the memory of the Jewish artists presented in this study well I think this goes along with actually the attitudes that I tried to describe already earlier that the research of Jewish life in general history Holocaust including then also art and artists was then gated in the social Yugoslavia mainly to Jewish community and as I said outside of the community especially in academia and academic world it was considered an undesirable subject it wasn't supported because as I said the ideology was to perceive the country united we are all equal brotherhood and unity there are no differences between ethnic groups and nations in terms of their national or ethnic identity because what is uniting them is the communist socialist ideology and the idea of Yugoslavism so this is the reason why also these artists were not entirely forgotten and as I mentioned in the framework of the Jewish community and especially Jewish mazurian ball great the materials were preserved some of their were researched not necessarily always presented primarily as Jewish artists as they were not like for instance what about was much more important as an example of modernist art in Belgrade on equal standing with some other Serbian artists influenced by Paris and Cezanne but the fact that they had this Jewish connection and the examination of how much this Jewish connection actually did influence their art or viewing themselves as a identity that would include not only international artistic Serbian but also Jewish was less examined less interesting and this is I think the change that I tried to make here that to sort of re-establish the rehabilitate them as also legitimately of Jewish origin and see how this Jewish origin combines their art and artistic production and lives eventually with other identities that I had and not denying that they were not also at the same time being international artists or universalists or communists or Serbian or creation but the Jewish element was missing and I tried to add it and see how this affected them.
I'd like to express my heartfelt and overflowing gratitude to you for your generosity and your addition and eloquence throughout today's conversation. Thank you very much Ali it was really a very moving and exceptional event also for me to go back to all these topics that you wanted to hear about and ask me about and I'm very happy to be able to a little bit explain myself and and I hope this was a case. It was my blessing thank you so much. As we end today I am your host on the new books and Jewish Studies podcast our re-part let today be a dialogue with Miriam Reiner she is associate professor in the department of Jewish arts at Bari Lan University in Israel.
She is the author of fragile images Jews and arts in Yugoslavia 1918 to 1945 published in Leiden Netherlands by Brill Publishers 2019. Thank you with the full essence of my being.