MISSING: Bonnie Lee Schultz Part 1

Hi, crime junkies. I'm your host Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And I have an interesting one for you today.

One where I ask you to put aside old tropes and quick judgments and listen all the way to the end of the story. Because you just might find the thing that I have come to learn over the years, that when you go beyond the surface level of a case, things are never as simple as they appear. Because this case on its surface seems like one that you might have heard before. A tragic tale.

Old is true crime. Woman tells her husband she wants a divorce. Woman goes missing. And husband does and says all the wrong things which make everyone around him think that he is also guilty of a crime that they can't prove even happened.

He eventually dies under a cloud of suspicion and the case is still unsolved. But if the husband did it and it was that obvious, why couldn't police make their case? For just a moment, I want us all to consider something. What if the reason this case hasn't been solved isn't because answers went with her husband to the grave?

What if it's because no one ever looked for answers in the right place? And if we could step back and reconsider what we think we know, is it possible to finally find Bonnie Lee Schultz? In the summer of 1997, Bonnie Lee Schultz found herself in a position that many women have. She had gone married young to her high school boyfriend and jumped quickly into the role of homemaker, following her husband's job wherever it took them.

And over 26 years of marriage, she raised two kids who she loved more than anything. But no amount of love from them back could feel the space that she felt growing between her and her husband Rick. It wasn't the kind of thing that I think happens all at once because of something said or done. It's this like lifetime of small decisions that send two people growing in separate directions.

But there came a time for Bonnie when I think finding a way back to each other probably didn't seem possible. About the time her youngest would have been going into first grade, Bonnie decided to join the workforce. So she got a job at a company called RGIS or sometimes called Regis doing inventory audits at stores in the area. I don't know if the goal was just to like get a little more independence and identity outside of the home, or it was just to have some extra money since her husband kept her on a tight budget.

But it served to do both nonetheless. And Rick wasn't a fan. Bonnie told her friend Diane that Rick made it clear. I mean, she could go get her full-time job, but he still expected her to have the house clean and dinner is ready at the same way he did when she was a stay-at-home mom.

So she juggled it all. But with time away came perspective and perspective is everything. The more Bonnie was around other people and saw other relationships, she became less satisfied with her own. Now, I have no idea how many conversations she and Rick had in the privacy of their own home about her unhappiness or the challenges of their relationship.

But they never discussed marital problems in public, at least not until 1997. That's when things were coming to a head. Aside from whatever she was feeling internally about her marriage, her mother got diagnosed with cancer and made a quick decline. She passed away in 1995, which I'm sure kind of brought with it a whole other host of feelings.

And so by Easter 1997, when her and Rick were in Wisconsin for her niece's first communion, Bonnie's brother Mike says that he and his siblings witnessed the first fight that he had ever seen between the couple. Bonnie had instigated it, pointing out that Rick didn't do things for her that other husbands did for their wives. The specifics are lost on Mike all these years later, but he said, it was kind of her just being like, you know, so-and-so does this for their wife. This person does that.

You don't do any of these things for me. And he said, it might have started as banter, but it actually got heated until finally the couple just stopped. And probably in like good Midwest fashion, everyone sat in awkward silence for about half a second before trying to just like change the subject and pretend like they didn't see what just happened. Well, and I wonder how much of that was brought on by her mom's situation, like not just watching her die and all the emotions that come with that, but like, you said it was quick.

So like the idea that any moment could be your life is so short. It would make you like really take stock of things. That's what I was saying. Like brings up this whole host of feelings, like am I happy?

Am I living the life that I want to live? And I mean, I could read into this for days because traditionally the farther back you go in generations, the more you have just these like expectations of what it means to be a wife and a mother and married and like you pick a path at 19. And then all of a sudden that is your lot like your 45. Like was her mother happy?

I don't know. I know nothing about her mother's life and marriage. Actually, Rick does say that he feels that this kind of was like playing a part. It was affecting.

Yeah. But I see your point. I think it's a good one. Like death in general just gets people thinking and it is very impossible and likely based on what Rick later says that whatever was bubbling under the surface got accelerated by her mother's death.

Because after that fight in Wisconsin, things don't go back to status quo when they get back to Indianapolis. Two weeks before she went missing, Bonnie called one of her closest friends, Diane DeSando. The two actually lived pretty close to each other and so they would often go for walks whenever one phoned the other. But this time when Bonnie called Diane knew that it was different right away.

I mean, for one, it was late when she called like 9 p.m. And when she heard Bonnie's voice, she could tell right away that she was upset. So the two met up for a walk and she said Bonnie just like unloaded. She said Rick made her feel unappreciated and ugly.

Their intimacy was gone and she had to beg him for any affection. And this all of us was already taking Diane back. I mean, they hung out like with the couple like her and her husband all together. They played cards all the time.

She had no idea. You never really know. Yeah. But then Bonnie, this is when she dropped the real bomb.

She said, I'm about to have an affair and I really don't want to do that to Rick. But you know, I need somebody that makes me feel appreciated and loved and I don't feel that anymore with him. And so Diane was like, why don't you just ask Rick for a divorce? Tell him you don't want to be married anymore.

And Bonnie said that she was afraid of how Rick would react. But clearly, that's where things were headed because she also said that she was going to start looking for apartments. Though she had no idea how she was going to actually afford one. She wanted something close by so the kids could still see their dad.

But even the two bedrooms were too much and she probably really needed three since her son was 15 and her daughter was 10. And the bigger issue at hand was that she didn't even know how to get a divorce or how much that would even cost. And so she was really looking to Diane for some kind of advice or help. And the hand was still married.

So she's like, listen, I have no clue. Like what about when your sisters? Can you ask them? And Bonnie was like, no, no, no, no.

I don't want any family knowing at this point. So Diane made another suggestion. She said, well, isn't there a lady at work who you said is divorced? Like maybe you can ask her.

And there was possibly more than one. But I know for sure that Bonnie began confiding in a woman named Anita Cardone. Just a pause for a second. Can we go back to the affair comment real quick?

Like, was there someone specific she was talking about? Or was she just like, I'm so lonely. I have to do something like this is the path that I'm on based on like where my relationship has it is. In this conversation with Diane, she doesn't name anyone specific.

And Diane didn't press for a name or details at the time. She just kind of wanted to let Bonnie vent without prying too much. And she assumed there was someone. It would probably just be someone that Bonnie worked with.

And there actually was someone and Diane's assumptions were spot on. The man she was having an affair with was John Guide. And he worked at RGIS with Bonnie and Anita. Now, I don't know how her relationship with John started or exactly when, but Bonnie was getting bolder.

With every day that past, she seemed more comfortable standing on her own, going places, making plans, whether Rick approved or not with people he didn't know. She put a deposit down for a cruise that she planned to take with coworkers in December and encouraged by Anita, she began going out more after work with that group of people to just grab drinks or to at least be social with those drinking because like she wasn't much of a drink herself. So somewhere in all of that, something began to blossom between Bonnie and this John Guide. And she was probably feeling seen and cared for and so many other feelings that she probably resigned herself to believing were for other people.

But it wasn't a fairy tale. John told her he wasn't going to date a married woman. So there wasn't a happy ending where she didn't hurt someone. But for probably the first time in 26 years, Bonnie was going to choose herself.

On July 3, 1997, she sat with Rick on the front porch of their home and in no uncertain terms told him that she wanted a divorce. They went back and forth for a while, but there was no talking her out of it. The time for compromise had passed. Like, her mind was made up and she wasn't going to keep arguing about it.

She told Rick that she was going to go to a house party with Anita to watch fireworks that night and that she would be back because she promised to take her daughter, Gretchen, to a movie and then the family was going to go see a fireworks show together the next day. It was going to be July 4. Diana calls Bonnie saying how excited that Gretchen was for the fireworks. So she was set on going even if it was going to be awkward being around Rick and their friends when no one else would know that they were about to separate.

And the thing I want to get across is that whatever was happening between her and Rick, it did not change how she felt about her kids. So at around 830 that night, after they have this conversation, she went inside and leaned down to kiss her daughter, goodbye. And her daughter, Gretchen remembers her mom's necklace swinging as she did this. The number one mom penned it that she and her brother, Josh, I got her for Mother's Day, was like tapping her in the face.

I can see it. I can see it. I can see it. I can see it.

I can see it. I can see this happens. So Bonnie kisses her goodbye. She walks out the door and drives off in her blue 1990 Mercury stable.

And the mystery of what happens next has plagued those who love Bonnie for 28 years. Now, if Bonnie left her house, calm, cool and collected, that mask had melted away by the time she got to the Hool hands restaurant where she met Anita and other coworkers. Because Anita said that when Bonnie shows up, she looked really upset. Like, I need a good tell that she'd been crying.

So she hustled Bonnie to the bathroom so they could talk in private and Bonnie told Anita that she just had this big fight with her husband, Rick. She told him she wanted a divorce. Rick said no, which is that's not how that works. Right.

And Anita said that Bonnie looked so upset that she even asked if Rick hit her, but Bonnie said no. So she also told Anita that she didn't know what Rick might do. Once Bonnie calmed down, they ate dinner with a few coworkers and they went to that party where they could see fireworks at a house that was on the phone. And then they were just owned by this woman that John was friendly with her name was Phyllis.

So they all say at Phyllis's house until about 1230 and then that's when a small group of them decide to move that party from the house to this bar that Phyllis worked at called the Time Out Lounge. And it seems like they might have popped over to another place first, but like all in all, they were at the Time Out Lounge as it got close to closing time. And we actually talked to Phyllis for this story and it felt a little bit like we got to step back into a time machine because guess where you can find her? She still tends bar at the Time Out Lounge and she told us that she remembers that night like it was yesterday.

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Phyllis didn't know Bonnie all that well. She just knew her through John and they come in a couple of times before. And she said Bonnie never drank much, maybe a beer and things were like par for the course that night. She wasn't at dinner, but by the time Bonnie got to her house, she seemed fine as they watched fireworks and they all hung out at the bar.

Now Anita told investigators that she left the bar at around 2 or 2.30 in the morning. And Phyllis said that she called it quits not long after that just before closing time around with 2.45. And when she called it quits, Bonnie and John were still hanging out. They actually had hung back with some staff till about 3.30 when it was very much like a, you don't have to go, but you can't stay here in situation.

The bar was like going to officially close up. So when the final people trickled out of the parking lot, John and Bonnie were still there together, talking outside their cars. And that was the last time other people saw Bonnie. Less than five hours later, Gretchen was waking up to a whole new reality.

That morning, when she came downstairs, her dad was in the living room, fully dressed, reading with the dog in his lap. It wasn't weird that he was up before her, but it was a little out of the norm that he wasn't still in his PJs. And when she asked where her mom was, her dad just said that she was probably at a friend's house like, no biggie. But it does feel odd when the day keeps slipping by without her there.

She doesn't show up to take Gretchen to the movie as planned. Josh gets back from the sleepover that he was at by the afternoon, but Bonnie is still not there. So at 5.10pm, Rick reports her missing. A deputy from the Marion County Sheriff's Department goes to their house to take the report on the fourth.

He gets her vehicle information, but when he hears that they had been having marital issues and they're talking about it before she leaves the house that night to going out with friends, he might make some assumptions that Bonnie is just going to turn back up. I mean, he literally says like basically call as if she does, and then he leaves. So not knowing what else to do, Rick tries to keep things as normal as possible for the kids. They go to their friends house to watch the fireworks as planned.

And Rick just tells the other people there that Bonnie had gone out with friends. He doesn't mention that he had just reported her missing. Not to them. No.

Wait, did the kids at this point realize that she's missing? Like, they would have seen the deputy show up. We talked to Josh. He says that he doesn't remember the deputy coming to the house that Friday or his dad reporting her missing, which to me, like there is probably a world where he was trying to shield them from all of that.

Yeah. So Josh can't remember exactly how or what his dad told him in those first few days. He just knows that he knew something was wrong by Saturday the next day for sure. Now, no one calls or comes by the house on Saturday.

So not knowing what else to do. That's when Rick starts looking for contact numbers for people that Bonnie worked with. Specifically Anita, since he knew that too Bonnie was going out with that night. Yeah.

Now it took him some back and forth with Bonnie's boss Felix to get Anita on the phone. But when he finally does, she tells him she has no clue where Bonnie was. She said they each had at home at like three o'clock in the morning. Bonnie was fine then.

Now, we know this isn't the whole truth, but she wasn't about to tell Rick that his wife hung back with John. But she at least calls John right after she gets off the phone with her to see if he is with her. Right. And he's like, no, he had no clue.

He said that people couldn't find her and he hadn't seen her talk to her since they left the time out lounge. So since Anita is saying that Bonnie was driving home the last she saw her, Rick decides to go out and look for Bonnie or her car that Saturday night. And then again with Josh first thing Sunday morning. And Josh says that he remembers his dad seeming worried, but not overly frantic.

They were just kind of looking anywhere they could think of her car or for any sign of her. But no matter how many streets and parking lots they search, there is just no sign of Bonnie. So that night, this is Sunday night now, Rick calls her friend Diane the one that she walks with. And he's calling her to tell her that Bonnie is missing.

Now it's about 7 p.m. when she gets that call. And she said she answered the phone and Rick's voice is kind of shaky. And he he's just like, I'm just calling to tell you that Bonnie's missing.

Is this the first call she's getting about Bonnie? Yeah. So he didn't call her at all before to see if Diane had seen her. No, she was.

No, which you would kind of think right. But she says this is the first time she's finding out that nobody knows her Bonnie is. It kind of feels like there's zero rhyme or reason as to who Rick is telling, when he's telling them. Why they're telling you and like they don't feel super weird.

It gave Diane a bad feeling too. And she said instantly, she thought, quote, you son of a, you killed her. You did something to her and quote that's what she told us. Now Diane's husband told her, you know, she just don't mean the conclusions.

Bonnie is probably just staying with a friend or something, but she's like, who, you know, like, whose house would she be? I'd he said she's been gone since Thursday. It's Sunday now. He's just telling me never called and asked like, have you seen her?

Is she with you? Have you talked to her? Do you know where she is? Like never got that call.

So her husband telling her not to worry did not make her worry any less. Talker. Yeah. She said that right then she marched over to their house ready to confront Rick.

But as she's going over there, she like knocks on the door and it's Gretchen who answers, which like totally knocks her off her axis because she like she forgot about the kids in all of this and she's not about to interrogate Gretchen's dad in front of her. So she decides to let tone it down a little bit and just like talk to him, except the conversation did not make her feel any better. So she says like, Rick, tell me what happened. Tell me how things went down.

And he goes, well, you know, she went out that night with some people that she worked with. And apparently she was out until three o'clock when the bar closed and she never came home. He told her that the lady she works with. I assume he means a need a kept calling him and saying she wanted to talk to the cops, like give me the cop that's involved and I'm guessing I need to wanted to tell someone what she knew about on his like real last movement, but she still didn't want to tell Rick anything.

But by the way, there is no cop involved. The sheriff's office has still not called them back. A detective hasn't even been assigned to the case yet, but that report the deputy took is just in like holiday weekend purgatory waiting for regular business hours to start. Oh, which is like wild.

Yeah. And like, I don't know, maybe fast track the missing person, but anyway, so he's telling Diane about any of that like blowing him up and he made a comment. He goes, you know, it's a holiday weekend and nobody's going to find her car or anything until after the holiday every place will be closed till Monday. So it's going to be a few days before anybody even finds her car or sees her, you know, somewhere like behind a doctor's office.

That feels like a weirdly specific example. Diane says she just looked at him like, what the hell, man? Like, what does that mean? Yeah.

And then she said there was this other moment when he was sitting in a chair, like looking down at his feet and all of a sudden he goes and she is too stupid to even know how to use an ATM card, like meaning Bonnie. And she said her eyes just went wide and her mouth like dropped open. Yeah. And he looks up from his feet and sees the shock in her face like, what are you saying about her missing wife right now?

And without her actually saying that a lot, he goes, oh, I mean, you know, she's just never used one before. So she ends up leaving the house not feeling any better than when she got there, but also unsure what to do about her growing suspicions. So that's Sunday night. Monday is when Bonnie's case finally gets assigned to a detective and that person gives Rick call to see if Bonnie has come back yet.

Glad that's the first course of action I guess. She hasn't. And Rick tells them he hasn't found anyone who has talked to her, seen her. And so this is when the detective starts making more calls, making more calls like did he not go to the house and talk to Rick or the kids may like poke around a little bit.

No, and this is really frustrating for those looking back on the case because there's a thousand little things that have been speculated like in all these years since Bonnie was missing stuff that would probably be a whole lot more clear or definitive if the early days of this case would have been handled differently. But it seems like day one after being assigned a case, the Marion County detective is just making calls, getting statements from the people who were last with Bonnie, like Anita, who tells them how upset Bonnie wasn't she showed up and she tells them the full story that she didn't tell Rick. That John was there with them and Bonnie and John had been having an affair for a couple of months. She definitely did not think that Rick knew and she says that she definitely didn't say anything to him when he called her for Bonnie.

And so she's admitting to investors that she lied directly. She didn't want to tell him anything that would throw Bonnie under the bus. She said she didn't even tell him where else they went that night. She just told him that she and Bonnie left the party at 3 a.m.

But the truth she tells investigators is that when she left at around 2, 2, 3 a.m. Bonnie was still with John, but that she also tells him like I called John, John has no clue where she is or she's not with him, which as you can imagine, when the detective hears this, they want to talk to John directly. And he confirms what Anita said that she left before he and Bonnie did. And he says that him and Bonnie stayed inside till around 3, 3 a.m.

And then after that, they were like chatting kissing next to their cars in the parking lot for like an hour, he says. And he says Bonnie mentioned to him this big argument that she had with Rick earlier that night and that Rick told Bonnie he would fight a divorce. And he said they were also just generally talking about other things. Like she said, she was going to take her 10 year old daughter to the movies later that day.

So that means as of like four in the morning, she's still playing on the phone that day. Yeah. And John says that after they were done talking, so this would be around like 4, 45 in the morning, him and Bonnie get into their own cars to each head to their own respective homes. Now they didn't live near one another, but they did both need to travel West to get to their homes.

So he says Bonnie was following his car for part of the drive and as they turn south out of the timeout lounge parking lot, they would have been driving down Alisonville Road to 62nd Street, like this is all very familiar. Yeah, but they turn on the 62nd Street heading West and then at Compton Street, that's when John needs to turn off to get to his house. So at the light, he went into the left turn lane, Bonnie pulled up next to him. He says he waved to her as he turned and then Bonnie continued straight towards her house, which would have been like another 20 minutes away.

But that he says is the last time he saw her. Now, I assume they talked to other people as well who were there that night, but how long it took to make contact with people and when exactly those conversations happened is a little TBD. I just know that it's not until August 6, a full month after Bonnie went missing that investigators actually talked to Rick in person for a recorded interview that we actually got a transcript of. In our diaper days, the roulette of finding a diaper that was gentle and reliable was exhausting.

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Code crimejunkie. Ready to discover what's out there? Listen to so supernatural wherever you get your podcast. Our records request from the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department was denied.

Always, but Bonnie's son Josh actually had copies of this transcript and shared them with us. We informed IMPD that we would be using this in our episode and asked if we could have the recordings of this to, at least if not, play so you could hear him directly match tone and inflection. I don't want to vibe up. I don't want to misrepresent anything said by Richard Schultz.

Okay, everyone calls random. But again, they denied that request. So these sections of the transcript are going to be read by voice actors and it may not reflect the exact tone. What's your name, sir?

Richard E. Schultz. What is your age? 46.

And do you know why you're down here this morning? Questioning relating to the disappearance of my wife. All right, sir. When was the last time you saw Mr.

Schultz? At approximately 830 PM Friday or Thursday, July 3. Okay, so would you tell us whether any discussions on July 3 that evening are prior to her leaving? Yes, there was.

And what were those discussions? We had discussed this. We had previously some situations in regards to divorce. Now, when you say situations, that's a general term.

I need you to be specific. Financial aspects. I believe would be the best way to put about a divorce. All right, sir.

How we could, her desire was to stay in the house with the kids and stay where fairly in the school systems. We were happy with the school systems and what we could do to meet that wish as well as provide some finances for me to set up a separate apartment or whatever it came to that. Did she in fact ask you to move out of the house for the future date on July 3, 1997 prior to leaving? She did not ask me to move out.

Did you discuss previously with her about you moving out? We discussed previously about a possibility of either one of us moving out. And who brought that up? I think it was just a joint part of the conversation, what the possibilities were.

The discussion about her moving out was primarily it would be easier for me to obtain a mortgage, to keep the house that would be probably for her. But the point I want to make about Friday's discussion was I was willing to procure the mortgage, or to leave in the house with the kids. Again, as long as we were able to come up with enough finances, I could set up a separate house. I was willing to make that payment so she could stay in the house with the kids.

And I would move out as my indication of some willingness to compromise on these issues. So we could discuss and we could get steps rather than going to that final step. Were you surprised when she talked to you about divorce? There.

And when was the first time she brought up divorce? I'd say in the end of May, sometime during the month of May, a couple of months prior to the beginning of July in that timeframe. What was her reason for wanting a divorce, lack of sexual activity on my part? And that was the sole reason and her fear of ending up being alone.

And she defined alone as the fact that we had nothing in common. How did you take that? My reaction was we had the same thing in common as most married people do. We had children, our lives revolved around the children, sporting activities, school activities.

I mean Bonnie was in Booster Club's for Dasha Sport activities. She was in the PTA progression. She was a member of the Altar Church. I had been a treasurer of the church.

I've been a coach for literally. I mean, our lives just revolved around the kids. So I mean to say we had nothing in common. I thought it was a gross overstatement.

I was trying to give it anger, you know, in the whole month or two that lead up to the time of her leaving. I was trying to find out, you know, what caused her to come to these types of conclusions? We're thrown out in a very matter of fact type of, rather than, again, a parent to me building up over time. And she just said to me with some of the things that were going on in her life, she felt under appreciated at times, and by me and the kids.

And again, I have a dozen or so conversations over that period of time trying to find out what all this was. It hit me out of the blue. If time would be somewhere in May to the beginning of July when she left, but I don't remember the specific date that she brought it up or whatever. It strikes me as a very short period of time, from the time that she started to discuss the voice or displeasure to, you know, some time in the round of the first or middle June saying, well, I just think that we...

There are no answers. Well, you know, in my own opinion, there are intermediate steps to take before we do that. I think that we could first counseling and try and find out if we can reconcile before we go to the voice. And what did she say to that?

She didn't say very much. She hung up on the divorce situation. And again, I tried to appease her to a certain degree by saying that, you know, I think that there's a way we can financially handle. We went to the house and the kids were living where they were, or whatever.

I was hoping it was a peace offering, or whatever you want to call it to try to get her to discuss or consider of the intermediate steps before the before the force. Now, I want to just jump in really quick and compare this to what we actually know. The timing makes sense. So we know that the fight they had in front of her family was around Easter.

The one where she's saying he doesn't do things that other husbands do for their wives. Everyone's sitting awkwardly watching it happen. So the idea that, like, since May, she has been saying she feels unappreciated by her family. Like, that tracks.

That makes sense. Easter Spring, May's right after. And Rick says that he notices this strong shift a couple of months ago. So that lines up with what Anita has told police that she's been seeing John for like that amount of time.

And Rick is super honest about Bonnie having issues with lack of intimacy on his part, which to me would be an easy thing to lie about, but he doesn't. Yeah. The thing that is a little TBD in this is his response to her wanting a divorce. And it feels so nuanced to me.

So he's saying that like he just wants to figure it out. Like, let's take some steps first before we just like jump straight to divorce, which feels reasonable. But you have Anita saying that Bonnie is super upset that night and Rick would not give her the divorce, which makes you want to say like, oh, he's lying. But I will say that when police talk to their 10 year old daughter who was home that I Gretchen, she said she was watching them outside through the window as they were like on the port having this conversation.

She says it's like 15, 20 minutes long. And she could tell that her mom was like a little upset just by the way she was talking intense conversation. But she didn't necessarily even describe it as an argument. Like, mom seemed upset, which like, I don't think contradicts anything that Rick is saying.

Right. So let's just jump back into the interview. Has Mrs. Schultz ever left like this before?

Never. Has she ever threatened to leave before? No. Have you ever been physically violent towards her?

Have you ever struck her? Post her? Shout her? Hold her tight against her will or anything at all?

No. Never. Ever. Never.

Never. When she asked you for divorce, did you think at any time during those three month time period? And I know that's just about part figure on the time frame. Think that there was another person in their life, another male?

I did not. When she told you that she was disappointed in the lack of sexual activity. Did you then think there possibly may be another male? I would.

I probably. I probably thought there was a possibility. But I just still don't think so. I mean, it's possible.

Sure. Well, I need. I'm trying to find out what you're thinking. Did you consider another male?

No. At all. No. During that whole three month time period, you never considered that Bonnie may be having a fair?

I did not. I did not. Do you know any of her co? Or did you know any of her co workers prior to her disappearance?

No. Okay. So you know of no co workers address the phone numbers prior to her disappearance? I did not.

Again, this all tracks with what other people know. The way that Bonnie explained things to Diane on their walk, he did not seem like Rick knew there was another man. And Anita and John are very clear and say that Rick did not know about the affair. I mean, even up until the point of Saturday when Rick is calling Anita looking for Bonnie, he's not asking about another man.

Right. Anita isn't offering that up. She is still covering for Bonnie. Right.

But he's just asking specifically about Bonnie. Not even like who they were. Where they were. Where they were.

Where they were. When was last time he's are? Which is what makes this next part of the interview stand out to detectives. What time does Bonnie leave July 3rd, 1997?

830, maybe 840 PM. Okay. Do you know where she's going specifically? No.

She told me she was going to a party, a house party with Anita. When did you talk to Anita? I tried to call her a couple of times during afternoon on Saturday the 5th. I got no answer and no answering machine.

Her daughter called me back later that same afternoon indicating that she got the number off of caller ID, type list. I don't have a feature. So I don't. Know how it works.

And I asked her if Anita was there and she said she thought she'd done work. I asked her if she knew where Bonnie was and she said she didn't know. And then after talking, I believe it was after talking to her, she looked at my beef. I beeped him and talked to him about the situation.

The pad manager from Regis called me later that evening, like say in the 7 o'clock area on Saturday on Saturday from the job that Bonnie was supposed to be at. He indicated she was not there. He indicated that. And he was.

I asked him to have Anita call me. He said that he would do that. He called a half an hour 45 minutes later. I asked her if she knew where Bonnie was.

She said no. She said they had left a timeout lounge the night before around three. I need to speak up. He got quiet on me.

Oh, I'm sorry. I keep her in the name of the place. The time has me every time I bring up. Here, this is the main reason I want to see this recorded interview so badly because this is the moment detective still point to 28 years later.

The moment they believe Rick knows he messed up. Sergeant Kissner with IMPD has viewed that team. And he says that you can read the words on the page, but what you cannot see is Rick's body language. He says, meaning, Kissner, Kissner says that Anita is very clear that she never told Rick where she and Bonnie had been when he called on Saturday.

According to her, all she said was that they headed home around 3 a.m. Full stop. So how would Rick know about the timeout lounge? Kissner says that he and the currently detective agree that you can see it in his demeanor that he realized he stepped in it.

And if Anita never told him where they were or anything more, then this next part really doesn't make sense. So Anita told you that they had left the timeout lounge around 3 o'clock in the morning? That's correct. Okay.

Left about 3 o'clock in the morning? Yes. So this was maybe around 8 on Saturday evening. I got in the car.

I drove to the timeout lounge. I went across 86th Street. So you knew where the timeout lounge was. I looked it up in the phonebook.

Okay. Or I believe or Anita may have told me. I don't remember how I found out where it was. I drove over there going East on 86th Street to Elsonville.

I found a place, came back through Broad Ripple on 62nd Street around 830, quarter to 9 on Saturday night. It's very busy. There are lots of people on the street and lots of cars and I did not see anything. Sunday morning at 5 o'clock, Josh and I got up and went to try to retrace those same steps.

How do you know to go through Broad Ripple? You went to 86th to Elsonville Road and you found the timeout lounge. Why would you not go back the same way that you went? Well, I didn't see anything on the way over.

Why? I mean, why go back the same way? I was trying to figure out as many possible ways that you would come home. Did you go 465?

No, I did not. But you went to 86th Street to go to 60 seconds on the way back to Broad Ripple? Yeah. Why?

I mean, if you're looking for how she would go home, I would think that you would cover all of your bases. Well, why didn't you go 465? Because at that point in time the police reported and filed and I assumed that it would be if the car would have been seen along 465. It's much more heavily traveled than some of these other areas.

So you go all 86th but you come back 60 seconds. What's the interest coming back on 60 seconds? It's just a different possible route. I was going to try as many as possible.

Are those the only two that you tried that evening? Yes. Okay. Another indicated we got up early Sunday morning.

My son and I and we went, um, I need to, I need to, I told me I believe on, I don't remember when. It was the first phone call or the second one that she had seen her heading west on 60 seconds street. Anita told you that she saw Mr. Schol.

When you say her? Yes. Heading west on 60 seconds street from the timeout lounge. At what time?

At 3 or 3.30 when they left the bar. Anita said she saw her? Yes. Your wife?

Did Anita say anybody else was with him? She did not. She said they were there long. I get why investigators are suspicious.

Yes. We know from John that Bonnie took 60 second street home and that's the last place he saw her as they weighed goodbye. But how would Rick know that? I mean, he's saying he's checking all the routes, right?

Sure. But then he doesn't? Like 60 seconds is the one that he calls out specifically to investigators. And later in the interview, he explains, you know, like she was most familiar with this route because of like X, Y, and Z reasons, which all the reasons were valid.

And in 1997, this is a time before Google Maps. So like, I kind of get that gut instinct off the bat. But you've been down 60 seconds street before. A million times.

It turns into Broad Ripple Avenue, which has like this strip of restaurants and bars where all the college kids go or like at least use to. I don't know what's cool. And it is very busy on for sure. So he says his reason for not checking for 65, which is one of our major highways.

Is that like, oh, if there was an accident, then police would have seen that. But like, if that's your reasoning, I'm pretty sure the same can be said for that area. And like sure, that busy road doesn't stretch all the way to her house. Like check the whole route fine, whatever.

But check more. Yeah. So why doesn't he? Like the feeling everyone says they get is that it's like he knew what route she took home.

And if he knew, then there are only a couple of options. One, Anita misremembered. And she actually did tell him or let it slip. And he had more to go off of.

Or two, and the theory that police seem to be hinting at is that Rick followed Bonnie that night. And it wasn't just the fact that he knew her route home that made them think that it's something that John ends up telling them later on. In our diper days, the roulette of finding a diaper that was gentle and reliable was exhausting. The right diaper changes everything.

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Sergeant Kissner says that in subsequent conversations with John, he ends up telling investigators, like, hey, you know, looking back on it, I had this gut feeling that somebody was watching us that night before we left in the parking lot at the time out lounge. And then he tells them about another instance prior to that in which they were leaving the lounge and he saw a car pulled out behind Bonnie, and it was actually following her. But he got stopped at the light, so he wasn't able to follow it or confirm his suspicions. And obviously at that time, she was fine, so he didn't really think anything of it until now, of course.

But now, now is not the first time they talked to him. This is after when everyone is kind of side-eyeing, getting suspicious of Rick. Correct. And to be clear, there is nothing detectives have told us that gives any insinuation that it's Rick specifically, he felt was the one watching right?

Just like just someone feeling watched. Yeah. And I actually have a bit of a hard time believing that it was Rick who followed her before. If someone was in fact following her, because that would mean that he would have been behind her, like got home after her, or at least right at the same time as her.

And in all the conversations she had with friends and coworkers, she never said that Rick had followed her. And she still thought he didn't know about John. So like, it feels like if John was picking up on that vibe, he would have, I think it's like if someone had followed her before, if someone was following her, it was the same person both times. She would have known it was her husband.

She would have known that he knew about the affair and I feel like other people would have heard about that. And it's, I don't know how much stock you can put in a feeling in hindsight. What investigators feel like they can put stock in is a polygraph. And both John and Rick readily agree to them.

One passes, one fails. What's your guess? I mean, I'm assuming that John passes and Rick fails. You are correct, which only bolsters their suspicions.

And did the police talk to the kids at any point? Like Gretchen, we know it was home that night. She's 10. Right, Josh, is that asleep over?

But yeah, she was home all the time. Yeah, she remembers the conversation that was like at least tense. But what next was dad there? Like, does she remember him leaving?

This should be easy to figure out. Yeah, she's like old enough to like be aware, right? Yeah. And yes, they do talk to the kids.

But I think they kind of doing this like a little bit like shady boots way. Like don't love. So in the first interview that they had or the first recorded interview they have with Rick, they ask him if they can interview the kids. And he's like, yes, of course.

They ask if they can talk to them alone. And at first he's like, yes. But then eventually he says, you know, you can talk to Josh alone. But like I want to be there when you talk to Gretchen, which like she only 10.

He's like, he's like, Josh is 16. Josh is like 15. Yeah. I refuse to fault him for wanting to be there for his 10 year old who's mom is missing.

For sure. But they just kind of go behind his back. Like one day they show up at the house at a time when Rick isn't home and they talk to the kids without him there. Is that even legal?

Right. Okay. So I was like, they're minors. And he explicitly said he wanted to be there when you talk to Gretchen.

This feels pretty black and white to me. And so like I was so like twisted up about this that we even asked the sergeant, sorry to get snorkeling about this. Now he wasn't the one who did this and went to the house in 1997. Obviously.

I'm like, are we good with this? And he said it wasn't a formal interview with the kids. Like it wasn't recorded or anything. So he said detectives felt like Rick was being controlling.

So this was their attempt to try and see if the kids might mention something off hands like if their dad wasn't over them, which like still getting my answer. So I like he's saying it's gray. Well, he was just saying like, I understand why they did it. So then I went to our lawyer crystal and I'm like, no, but like on paper is this legal.

And she said it actually is. It is legal for police to talk to minors without parental consent in Indiana. And just like Sergeant Kistner said, Crystal said that if the parent is a suspect, police would have an interest to do this reason to do outside their presence to avoid any kind of the coaching or intimidation. So all of that to say, they do end up talking to the kids solo.

Now, Josh can't tell them much because he wasn't home that night. And Gretchen tells them a lot of the same stuff her dad and Bonnie's friends said about what her mom was last wearing, which was like a light tan purse, sandals, navy pants, a striped, like light and dark blue type shirt, a herringbone necklace, wedding ring, gold watch. And Gretchen remembers something else that her mom was wearing too, that number one mom necklace, the one that was like right in her face we talked about as her mom kissed her goodbye. And then there's this moment where I have to imagine the energy in the room shifts for detectives.

Sergeant Kistner wasn't there. He just read about this so he doesn't know exactly how it unfolded. But apparently at some point while they're there, Gretchen goes up to her mom and dad's bedroom and she comes downstairs and she presents them the number one mom necklace. And she tells the detectives that it was in a different spot than where her mom normally keeps it.

That just gave me the most full-body chose. I mean, is this Gretchen's way of telling them something like hinting at something? I don't know what this is. But we did get confirmation from the police that this is the item that has been referenced online and reporting but never actually named until now.

They actually approved us releasing this information. Like this is the item everyone talks about that she supposedly, I guess they said the kid said she was never without it. I don't know what that means, but it was this necklace. Now, we really wanted to speak with Gretchen ourselves for this recording, but she wasn't up for it.

Because in my mind, I'm like, you know, it's been so many years since this happened. What if Bonnie wasn't wearing a necklace that night? Like, what if we're misinterpreting old reports? Like, this either means everything or we are missing a piece and this actually means nothing.

Like what if her mom took it off real quick? Like I was talking to our director reporting and she was like, oh yeah, there's like plenty of things I have where I'm like, oh my God, I love this. I'm never going to take it off. I have a very specific pair of earrings that may insist that she get my birthday and I have worn them.

Exactly. In front of her. I've seen me wear that. Our other producer realized that her mom has a box of stuff.

It's literally like a box of this stuff that like kids make and you're like, this is or like give you because they love it and they like think you love it too. I know. I can imagine as a mom, like literally making sure it dangles and hits Josie a face. She's like, no, I'm wearing it.

You know what I mean? And then like, just drop it somewhere, the place I don't normally put it because I'm about to head out the door. Well, and with that in mind, like, did anybody see her wearing it when she went out that I can picture this necklace? This is a distinct kind of necklace in the 90s.

So this is what kills me. Apparently her shirt had a really high neckline. So nobody remembers seeing any necklaces. I mean, people talk about her wearing that herringbone necklace.

So that might have been outside, but no one mentions this one. We had instant toilet chestes and exposed. You can't prove that she wasn't wearing it like underneath this like high neck shirt. Now, even though we couldn't talk to Gretchen, we did talk to Bonnie Sun Josh for this episode.

We asked him about this necklace. And, you know, he wasn't there when she left the house, obviously. So he couldn't speak to that. But I didn't know maybe he remembered this moment when Gretchen like gives them this or if he and Gretchen ever talked about this after.

But like, whatever this big significant moment was to detectives was not that for him because he says he does not remember it. But what about any other family members? Did anybody else bring this up? I mean, you said she had sisters like no one?

No, we didn't get to speak to her sisters in our reporting. Like they did help verify some facts for us, but they didn't want to have like long conversations about this. Like it's still just too painful. But we did have a really long conversation with Bonnie's brother.

So that's Mike. And you know, it's interesting. Like, I think it's so easy for us as reporters, crime junkies listening to be like, oh, this was me in a situation. Like I would bulldoze my way through people until I got the answers I needed.

Oftentimes that is not what real life looks like. In the very early days, like her siblings weren't even really in contact with police. They were kind of getting what little update they could from Rick in the first week or so. So he's actually the one who does eventually call them and tell them that Bonnie's missing.

But kind of like he called Diane a little bit later, he did the same with them. He calls them on the sixth. And at the time they're like, well, do we need to come down? I mean, to look at me for us.

He's like, no, no, no, no. Don't come search. I'm sure she's going to be back. And at the time they were really not suspicious of him at all.

But after like a week of Bonnie being gone, they're finally like, you know what, like we're coming down from Wisconsin to help look for her. And that was the following Friday. So Mike and his sisters drive through the night. They get to Rick's place at like 5 30 in the morning and ring the doorbell.

They're obviously there with like bags and stuff, right? Like they don't know how long they're going to be there, but the hope is that they're going to stay till they find their sister. But Mike says that when Rick opens the door, his first words are something like, oh, you're saying tonight? Yeah, Rick, we're saying the night and the night after that and the night until Bonnie comes home.