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This is the best-hang podcast featuring Max Gurman, Shane Cunningham, and I, and Mike here me. Here's the secret. Welcome to the best-hang podcast. I'm Mike, I'm Max, we've got Shane, and we're all here in person hanging out at odds.
We've done this before. It's always much more exciting. We're together, but that is not the only exciting thing. Because today on the pod, I'm sure you read this in description.
We fired up the pod to listen to it today. But we have a massive, massive guest who is near and dear to Max's heart. Some of the Max was absolutely giddy about it before we actually did the interview. In tears after the interview.
Yeah. It was pretty special. And we were talking, of course, about author Michael Lewis, from the blind side, Moneyball, the big short. He's got a book I write now called The Premonition, a Pandemic Story, and his podcast is against the rules.
But more importantly, Max, I feel like he is like a real hero of yours. I think if you were to make a list of the top three people that I wanted to have a conversation with, he'd be in the world. He might be up there. And I've already talked him one time before I interviewed him from a claims magazine.
And I think like top three right now at the top of my mind, Barack Obama, number one. Nice. Never two Mike, Mikey, Michael Lewis. Do you even have a number three?
Or is it Michael Lewis again? Yeah. Yeah. Who would be my number three, like Charles Barkley maybe?
Oh, nice one. Yeah, I don't know. Who would be your first part? Barack Obama, Michael Lewis, Charles Barkley.
That's great. Who would your top three be? Oh, I mean, you know, Paul McCartney. Yeah.
And Paul, I'd like Paul. And so we talked about this many times over the years, but it's sitting at Paul for sure. And we all know Shane's. We know what he's going to say.
You're right. You're right. You're right. Listen to this podcast.
You know that Shane almost like Nathan Fielder. Nathan Fielder's cool. OK. So Nathan Fielder shares the same birthdays meeting 12.
So that's number one problem. Own Wilson number two shares the same middle name as me. Wow. Middle name is my last name.
My last name is Cunningham. Oh, Wilson's middle name is Cunningham. Interesting. He's kind of him.
Wilson. Yeah. Wow. You know that.
In fact, unswares are good friend. Mad unswares just messaged me that on the weekend thinking he would blow my mind. But he didn't. And number three, Tim Robbins.
Mm. I think you should leave. Yes. That's great.
Comedian. Yeah. For me, Michael Lewis. And I know you're probably familiar with his work, even if you don't know it.
If you watch the blind side, you want an Oscar. The big short, Adam McKay is famous movie about the financial crisis. Moneyball, if you're a sports fan, the moneyball lization of sports and culture and music and everything. Has to do with the thing that he wrote.
But he's also just one of these guys that is so effortlessly cool. Like he's born and raised in New Orleans. He sort of fell ass backwards into his job on Wall Street. And he wrote his first book about that, Liars Poker.
And he's the guy that Vandy Fair calls up when they need someone to profile Barack Obama. Like he's just that guy. And he does everything with just sort of a great sort of sense of humor. He has a lens that most people don't have on like evaluating a situation.
And I just think he's a handsome devil. I just think that everything about him is so cool. I am spent. And so yeah, having a chance to talk to him was just the best.
And he's also doing the podcast rounds right now because of the new season against the rules. And one thing I just want to note is that his family suffered a terrible tragedy. But a year ago, he lost his daughter Dixie in a car accident. She was 19 years old.
And we don't get into it in this interview. But the way he reflects on her life and the type of grief that he's going through right now is really beautiful and profound. So if you want to hear another excellent interview, smartless just had him on. I recommend you listen to the whole thing.
And basically I will consume anything that that guy does. And to hear him touch on, he's had a very sort of charmed life in every possible way. And then this terrible thing has happened. But the way he even reflects on that is beautiful and profound.
And we thought about talking to him a little bit. We discussed it like in our pre-interview of whether we would talk about it. But he has talked about it. So eloquently and sort of so in depth in other conversations that it almost felt like we were just sort of retreading something that he's talked about and something that can be a difficult subject, even though he seems to talk about it with sort of a real clarity.
And then we ultimately said in our conversation, really, isn't about that. And if it goes, we'll go there. And then ultimately, we went all over to other places, including Winning Time, the new basketball movie. He had the perfect segue to that, by the way.
You did. He came in in such winning time. Winning time. That's just a project that he has not involved in.
No, no. But his face did light up. He got excited. No, because he came into the interview with kind of a jovial mood as you hear off the top.
He's like, this crazy thing is happening on campus. I wasn't giddy about the active shooter. It had all been resolved at this point. But basically, he's daved and thrown out a whack.
And he was like, he was able to, you know, but yeah, he was making. Anytime I felt like I tried to get sentimental with him, he was having absolutely none of it. We talked about being a stripper. We came up with a nickname for him.
Well, Shane, you have the funniest line of the whole interview because obviously, should we just, is that a teaspoon? So you can listen for that when he does say he's a stripper and then Shane drops in all time line, I think in the history of the podcast. Oh, wow. The quickness of the name of the fact I was telling Danica after the interview, she laughed.
And then we saw some other friends of the week, she was like, tell them about Shane's over there. So I told the story and I like Danica teaming up like that. Yeah. Did I seem nervous or different about this?
Yeah, cool. You were cool. Really? I was like the Adam and Kate duck analogy.
Yes. What's that? It's funny. I mean, I mean, people talk about that phrase, you know, like a duck on the top of the water is very calm, but underneath their legs are going crazy.
That's just how they paddle. That's right. So they actually personified this in winning time in the very first episode where, you know, Jerry bus has to have a conversation. He thinks he's not going to be able to buy Lakers and he discusses or he sort of describes the duck and they go to one and upon and you see just calm and floating across the top.
And the camera goes under the water and you see the features going crazy. And so I don't know if in your mind you had that inside. Like on the outside, you were calm as a document. You've been in too many big situations, I think, too outwardly show nervous.
I was like blind with nerves. Like almost like, you were before because when we got on like for the sort of pre thing, like, okay, we'll talk about it. I just need a second. You like put your headphones up and I can see you like prepping the interview in a way that you haven't you don't normally get like so before you did feel like that kind of nervous.
It's very Shane ask. It was also it didn't help though because one of our recurring figures on the show, book club Mattie, I texted him because Matt loves Michael Lewis and I was like, oh, and Matt's really smart and would have interesting questions. And I asked him, do you have any questions? Do you have any questions?
He won't help me prepare for this interview. Who better to do it than you? And he was just so goddamn annoying. Basically, Matt's just like, well, I don't know.
Like, are just you or is it the three of you guys? I'm like, I think the three of us, he's like, well, Shane even read any of this stuff. I'm gonna kill him. I hate that.
I hate him. I was indifferent towards him before. Okay, actually, I actually like him before. Yeah, he was like, oh, honestly, it's like, it just doesn't even seem like the latest use of against rules.
So it's like, I don't want to predict a lot of his other work, right? I'm just like, I just don't exactly get it. I'm like, wrong energy. Yeah, just tell me if you have a fucking question you want to ask him.
And then you end up sending six questions that are all three paragraphs long each. That's why I was stressed out because I was trying to decipher what the fuck he's talking about in his questions. And we're going to go interview Michael Lewis in eight minutes and I'm trying to get this question, book with Mattie. Oh God, it was just I hope he eats his fucking words when he hears my seamless winning time integration.
I've listened to against the rule, so the entire season this was like years ago, I'm old school Michael Lewis. You're prepared. You're prepared and you were a fan, although I guess one percent assumed. And the connection to Winning Time, by the way, is Adam McKay directed The Big Short, which is an adaptation of a book hero.
So it wasn't seemingly so much of a non-segrator. Does it make sense to you guys why I think he's the coolest? No, it's pure Max, obvious. Very much so.
He's Malcolm Gladwell, Big Free. He's up there for you. Because both Gladwell and Lewis seem to have so much fun doing what they're doing. They're not particularly tortured people.
And a big part of their writing is always just sort of finding interesting people that are seemingly random everyday normal people and finding something sort of brilliant in them. So I think that's really cool. I like intellectuals who can explain things in a very accessible way to dummies. So it's odd that Frückman thinks that I wouldn't consume his work because essentially, Michael Lewis's work is four people like me.
It's just a dummy. Yeah, exactly. He didn't say that. No, but he might as well, Mike.
Yes, yes. Well, I think what's endearing, and I think for our listeners, I think a lot of people that listen to this podcast are big, are Kel's fans. And you're someone who maybe other people will get the feeling that you have their own you. I think it's always really interesting when people who also make creative work and successful at it, they still have a little fan inside them.
Yeah, because I wouldn't really care really, unless I was meeting Paul McCartney or something where Anderson Pack, I wouldn't really care that much about meeting another musician, but Michael Lewis, oh god. Yeah, we kept it cool. And I think this is like a great tease for the interview, but before we even set up the interview properly, probably, guys, we got a new sponsor. Oh, yeah, coming from the East Coast.
This is an exciting podcast all around. We got a big name, Guess, Two Maxes in Love With. We got a new sponsor who the three of us are in love with. We've been drinking this stuff for a while now, so it's pretty exciting that they have come on board and are sponsoring the podcast.
And that sponsor is. Love With. And we're gonna crack that right now. Excellent.
You know, last year during the pandemic, they sent me some free product. And we also, and I shows before that, were we drinking it even before the pandemic? That's right, we were drinking it in the board room including Joel Plaskett, Sloane, Matt Mayes, some of my favorite musicians. The sweater that I'm wearing.
The sweater that says Nova Scotia Spirit Co. And they also have another sweater that Shane's wearing. It's called Willing To Learn. So I was thinking we could do a segment here before we're gonna interview called The Willing To Learn segment, presented by Blue Lobster.
And I wanna start with you, Shane. What is something that you are willing to learn in 2022? Am I willing to learn? Geez, put me on the spot.
And I can't say nothing, right? I know every time. Mike, what do you got? What are you willing to learn in 2022?
I didn't even let me, I didn't even let me, I can see that one chance. Just because I have a brief moment of being put on the spot. Wow, wow. I'm just moving right now.
Okay, I'm willing to learn. And we have mentioned it on podcast, how to live without a mustache. Oh my goodness, we buried the lead. Yes, I know mustache right now.
We went right to Michael Lewis and Blue Lobster, but Shane, you came in, I came in to record and I didn't realize we're gonna get a selfie right now for the socials. No mustache, Shane, is mustache. Which is surprising, you'll see a haircut, which looks really nice. Oh, thank you, double whammy.
What was the catalyst? Is it because we're all going to speak for you? Birthday in a couple days? Is it?
The real thought process was there's one sketch in our sketch show where it is imperative that I do not have a mustache. And I was thinking of logistics and I just had the solution of, oh, we just shoot this sketch last. And then it just got in my head of, what if you didn't have a mustache? Oh, my daughter's never seen me without facial hair.
How would she react to that? How would this go on TikTok? So I just instantly walked in the washroom and I was just going to TikTok. That ran by my mind, but my daughter's reaction was nothing.
So it's not going on TikTok. I walked to the washroom in two seconds, walked out without a mustache. The rest is history. Do you feel like a different man?
Yeah, I definitely feel more exposed, potentially less attractive. I think you're more attractive. Well, that tattoo under the mustache is just far off. It's very jarring now that we can see it.
Mike, honestly, you're an honest guy. Would you say if you were someone who, you know, let's say you were attracted to men. Yeah, would you be attracted to me right now? Yeah, you look more than the mustache.
Yeah, you look good. I've said no, no, more or less. Okay, well, it's hard because it's been a lot of less decade with you. I don't think it's less.
I really don't. I think I will say this. I think in a broad sense, I think you were more attractive now than you were with the mustache. But the mustache is a unique thing.
Like people like idiosyncratic things. Well, I mean, we're doing a sketch show. And I think you're more malleable without the mustache. I don't think you're as specific.
I think that's better for sketch comedy. You can be, you can only slap a mustache on you for a character. You know what I'm saying? But if you have a mustache on every sketch, it could be a cool thing, but also it's less broad.
But you think Max is better looking or less better looking? No head to take care. You know what I'm saying? What's the next time on my last podcast where you mentioned that Bruce McCullough was a little sand off it because my look, that played a part.
Ooh, maybe next time we hit with Bruce, we'll be filling you up a little bit. Yeah, exactly. I'm trying to normalize my appearance. You did get in time for the doc.
We're going to go see the kids in the whole documentary. I know. Let's see how Bruce react. This is going to be a good test, actually.
Mike, what do you want me to learn? Oh, man. I'm about to learn how to learn. I'm willing to learn how to lie to a friend about some who's better looking at the other mustache.
No, I don't know. I always want to learn. Life is a journey. That's why I like this sweater.
Would you learn a new language? See? See? Do you know love languages?
Like my language of love, like, acts of service and things are like, yeah, yeah. What's the end of love? It's acts of service. Oh, it is, yeah.
What's else is love language? I can't say that. It's not appropriate on the mic. Let's get to the interview.
Oh, my goodness. All right. Well, anyway, Blue Lobster, very excited to have you guys. And you know what?
We'll have more things we're going to learn on the next segment in the next episode. In the next episode also, we got more guests in the future. We're doing one on Thursday. It's going to be good.
But today, our guest is, of course, massive author, Michael Lewis. If you haven't read his books, you've almost certainly seen or heard of one of the movies that was made out of his books. He's special. Listen to Max.
I think hold it together in spite of his extreme fan energy that he had going into it now. Yeah. Gosh, we get to Michael Lewis? Let's do it.
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Hey, Michael. How's it going? Good. It's Shane.
It's Shane. Let me get gallery view. There we go. Hey, Mike.
And there's Max. Hey. I am in my office in Berkeley. Oh, nice.
Have you been traveling much? I mean, it's been constant. And it's not over yet. I've got another.
You know what that's like. Yeah. I feel like I've been on tours. I have been on tours.
But I just came from a really odd day. I was recording the next last episode of the podcast for the season of Against the Rules. And it's at the on the Cal Berkeley campus. OK.
Right near you. The whole campus all day has been in lockdown. Because first they reported there was an active shooter. Oh, no.
So there wasn't an active shooter. There was someone threatening someone. And it's not even clear that that person is even on the campus. But they're helicopters all over the sky.
Oh, no. The restaurants around campus are boarded up like they're waiting for an invasion. Nobody's not a soul walking on the streets. And actually it felt like it felt like an incredibly daring act to get to my podcast.
But you're in a bunker. So you're all right. I just snuck in and out of the Cal campus. Anyway, how are you guys doing?
Are we in Canada? Yeah, we're inside of Toronto. Yeah, well, I'm in a beautiful holiday in right now in Baryont area, which is about an hour north of Toronto. We have a show here tonight.
So this is just a post sound check interview. So I'm very excited. I'm more nervous for this, though, Michael. Then the actual show itself.
You know, we happen in the show. That's right. That's right. That's it.
Well, thanks so much for doing this. And we can get right into it. And Michael, I feel like I listened to every one of your interviews and read every book and listen to every episode of the podcast. But I do want to maybe go a little wider here.
And I'm just kind of curious. You find all these interesting subjects. And seemingly, normal everyday people. And you find something brilliant within them.
Is there a particularly interesting journey that you took to find one of these people that really sticks out where one thing led to that and that ended up, that person ended up being a centerpiece in one of your stories? You mean in any book or any story? Yeah, in the most recent season, you meet this guy who figures out how objects drift in C. Like, you know, so here's the second example.
You could take almost anyone as an example. But so the season's about experts. The character I found, his name is Arnall. And it showed you how how pazard finding characters actually is.
The way this happened was when the Trump shut down the federal government in whatever it was, January 2018, I can't remember now. And furloughed 2 thirds of the federal workforce as inessential workers. I had the question, who are these people who were being sent home without PEC? Like, what makes them inessential?
If they're inessential now, why do we even have it? And I went to an organization in Washington called Partnership for Public Service that gives awards to federal employees. It's an obscure award called the Sammy Award. And for 15 years, they've been running around the federal government getting people to nominate other people for awards for excellence in public service.
And they've got thousands of nominations. But as a result, they have this database of people who are good at their jobs presumably, who could be nominated for this award. And I got him to grind out a list from this thousands of the ones who've been furloughed. And it was still thousands.
And I just took the name off the top of the list, Arthur A.O. And it said he worked in the Coast Guard as an oceanographer. So I called him up. And I said, I want to come see what you do.
Now, here's what he does. It's a very, very terrible story about what he does. But what he does, what he did was so cool, was he figured out people were dying because the Coast Guard had not worked out how objects drifted see. In particular objects.
So if you fall off a cruise ship, you're going to float differently than someone who's in a life preserver. You're going to float differently than someone who's on an upside down sailboat. And you will be, after some hours in the same ocean, you would be miles apart from those other objects. And he had spent, he had since part of his career tossing unbelievable amounts of shit into the long island sound and seeing how it drifted and reducing them to mathematical equations so that they could be inserted into the Coast Guard search and rescue program.
And as a result, I don't know how many lives. Around the world, it's probably thousands of lives. And anyway, so I go see him to talk about this. Like, all right, you're an essential.
What is it you did? He starts telling me my jaw's on the floor. It's really interesting. He's very passionate about it.
He weeps when he's talking about the people who's lost, you know, that kind of thing. And at the end of it, so this is now a few years ago when I first met him, but we brought him into the podcast just recently. But I spent three days with him in this remote Connecticut town with his family at dinner with his family, interviewed his wife and kids, went to his old office, went to the long island sound where he dropped objects into the ocean, talking about his life. I'm going back to the airport to come home.
And he calls me on my cell phone and he says, Hey, you're a writer. I said, I was kind of like a writer. I said, I was kind of like a writer. You're a writer.
I said, I was kind of confused. I said, yeah, yeah, I'm a writer. He says, you're like an author and your books have been published. And I said, yeah, I can mention that when I first called you, but maybe you didn't hear it.
But yeah. And he says, he says, he says, I said, well, why did you think I was like with you for three days after you all this? And he says, I thought you were just really interested in how object you did. It completely captures the spirit of the federal employee.
And he was such a, and he was so, like, he wasn't looking for publicity or promotion or anything. He was like trying to teach me how object you did see. And I was trying to describe what it is we were losing when we told those people to go home and they weren't essential. And then, you know, he, he, he's such a good character that I couldn't help but build one of the episodes around him.
We paired him with someone he saved who didn't know he'd been saved. Wow. Jesus saved him. Well, you know, I kind of want to get to that because I feel this about my own job is that like I get a lot of attention for what I happened to do, but the guy who's the lighting guy I think is equally if not more talented than I am.
I just happen to be more self-promotional about what I do. If you were to, and it feels like that's a common thing with these these federal workers, they're not good at telling their own story. It takes someone like you, an expert story teller to tell their story. If you were to like give a one page document to one of these people, like here are ways you can get your good ideas across.
Have you had this like fantasy where you could help somebody tell their story and get good ideas across the line? Or is it just a different type of personality that, and they just need to be listened to a little bit more? It's a different kind of personality they need to be listened to a little bit more. You really can't teach them to be different than how they are.
And people who, people who kind of sit down and self-consciously say, I'm going to figure out how to tell my story so people value what I do. It's so transparent. It ends up kind of always being paid by numbers. And someone like Art Allen would be so uncomfortable doing it.
He just squirmed. I don't want to do it now. I guess got a note from yesterday. The podcast just came out a week ago, or maybe two weeks ago.
And he had gotten a note from someone in the Coast Guard saying, basically I think saying, you're getting too much attention. It was a big team of people who did this thing. The big team people did this Coast Guard search and rescue computer software. He basically alone did the how objects drift stuff.
And the fact that I was just focusing on that and not spending a lot of time wasting a lot of the audience's time talking about the whole team made everybody uncomfortable. You can tell a story about the whole team. It's about this guy doing something very particular. And he's going to get an outside amount of attention because I tell the story.
And it's on a podcast. And you just got to live with that. But actually, even now he's kind of uncomfortable with it. So I don't think you can take Art Allen and turn him into a self-promotional machine.
Or nor would you really want to. It's just not in his nature. Well, when you say then that this whole season is about the mistrust of experts and their opinions, do you think has more to do with the elites that are sort of in control of the situation and people's mistrust of them because they feel like transparent movers and shakers that have their own political agenda. Do you think if the people representing these experts had a little bit more honor or dignity or grace that the experts would be listening to a little bit more?
Well, they certainly defer to them and they would put them force them on stage more. But I don't think of it. So you've reduced the problem to, I think, a smaller problem than it is. It isn't just mistrust.
I think the big problem, the macro problem that I was interested in is we in this society, the United States of America, are better than anyone has ever been in the world at producing new knowledge and generating new experts. Our government is one place where we do it. We have done it really well. And we're also like number one in the world in not in idiocy and not taking advantage of the knowledge.
And why is it the pandemic was a great case and it sort of alerted me to it in a way. We had essentially created the pandemic response plan for the world. We were home to more microbiology labs and more understanding about how to track viruses and more medical know-how than anywhere in the world. And yet we get this response.
It's just a num-nut, no-nothing response. So the question is like, what's the source of this juncture? I think mistrust is part of the story. It's not the only part of the story.
I think that there are a lot of other parts of the story. But why people mistrust experts? They mistrust everything more. Trust in all institutions has declined.
I mean, the first thing is about referees. Same story. You know, same is actually a parallel episode. We have an episode where looking at spheres of people who are not being interested in the fact that there are a lot of other things that are not being understood.
We have an episode where looking at spheres of life where the experts clearly have gotten better. I mean, it's not even close to get better and better and better whether forecasters and where they're getting more and more mistrust hostility, people tuning out, not listening to what they have to say in spite of getting better and better and better. Doctors will tell you the biggest problem in their lives is patients now don't trust the doctor. They went something on WebMV that says the doctor was wrong and they were wrong.
So it's this paradox. And I think so the trust part of it is I think it's a great question. Why? It's been this collapse in trust.
I don't know what's happening in your country. But the global surveys of trust in government and trust in a personal trust like how much you trust your citizens, fellow citizens, they're actually pretty stable in most countries. The United States is this anomaly in this collapse in trust. We have had a particular problem with it.
I can think we can skip all about why that is. But inequality is definitely part of the story. Yeah, the partisanship up here isn't the same. You know those three major parties people often vote for the center party or the left party.
They can bounce around a little bit more. And also the way politics was reported up here is not as salacious. It's not entertaining. It's actually famously kind of boring.
If you talk to a journalist up here they might know something salacious about a politician's personal life but it's sort of against the code to actually print anything about it. So I think that has something less team sportsy up here. People at that, they were an object less into the world in a lot of ways. It's like be like them.
But as I say the mistrust I think is just part of the story. I'm really interested in how experts have changed that make it hard for people to understand them. And I think this is a money ball thing that's going on across the culture where it's essentially it's expert it's rooted in new data and new data and new ability to analyze data. And the nature of the expertise is probabilistic.
The nature of the expertise is like the weather man. It's like I can't tell you for sure whether it's going to rain. I can tell you that there's an 80% chance it's going to rain. I can give you odds.
And my odds I give you are getting better and better and better. But it's very hard in a single instance or even a few instances to say that I know what I'm talking about. If I say there's an 80% chance it doesn't rain you say I'm an idiot. But actually 20% of the time it's not going to rain.
I get that forecast 20 out of 100. But people don't really understand probabilities. And there are a lot of experts who are kind of like this now. They sell political forecasting is become this way.
Sports forecasting is become this way. All sports analysis have become this way. It's all rooted in statistical thinking. And people don't think like statisticians.
And they don't really know how to evaluate the expert. And they're quick to dismiss the expert. Anyway, so trust us, just as like only part of the story. And the truth is coming out of the pandemic if you look at the way experts behave in the pandemic here.
There are a whole bunch of people. And this is our final episode. This is there are a whole bunch of people who were taking his experts. Scientists with big credentials.
They might not actually have been experts in how you were controlled and pandemic, but they were close enough. They were doctors, they were PhDs in something who really were untrustworthy that they pushed political agenda rather than following the evidence. And you can kind of see how that and they haven't really paid a price for it that there is a market for it. They've become famous and popular in small circles.
So there is experts partly responsible for the problem. The incentives that experts face partly responsible for the problem. Shane, go ahead. Winning time.
You watch that show. That's funny. That's funny. You bring it up.
It's now controversial as of two days ago. That's what I wanted to talk about. Yeah. So Adam McKay is a friend who's a producer.
And I'm amazed how much I love the show. I wouldn't give Tony. Do I want to watch a show about the 1980 Lakers or whatever year it was, or 79 or 80 Lakers? I would have said no, probably not.
And it's totally engrossing. Yeah, oh, it's amazing. It's totally engrossing. It's totally fun to watch.
Part of it is my appetite for period pieces is through the roof right now. I don't want to be living in this world. I want to be living in that world. And so that's part of what's going on.
Part of this is just performances are great. What's interesting to me is one of the things that would make a show like that difficult to watch. Basketball players don't look like normal people. They're 6'9", or 7' tall.
It's so interesting the way they've got fairly normal size actors to look bigger. They persuaded me that I'm actually looking at Magic Johnson and the Korean liberal jubar. Yeah, they do a really good job. And actually you want to help them do it.
They don't have to get every shot right. But if they get enough of the shots where you feel like that's a big looming presence, you're kind of in with them. And the Magic, the players performances are fantastic. I mean, John C.
Riley is unbelievable. But Jerry Resske, a character. I mean, I know Jerry Resske only by reputation. I've never met him.
And I knew that, you know, some people regarded him as a problematic character. But even when I was watching it, I was thinking he's not going to be happy with it. No. No.
In particular. And this thing that goes on with real people who get played by actors, when the actor is not as good looking as the real person, when they make him look schlubby or, you know, I think deep down, that's what bothers the person. If Brad Pitt was playing Jerry West and playing him exactly the same way, I'm not sure Jerry West would have complained. There's a story where there's that movie, Nowhere Boy, about John Lennon growing up.
And Paul McCartney, I guess, had an issue with it because they made John look so much taller than the actor that played Paul. And Paul was like, he was not taller than me. We were the same height. And I was like, that was Paul McCartney's takeaway from that film, which is to exactly what you're saying about the real people.
They're just very sensitive to what the person looks like on the screen. And so, I wonder if they might have avoided the whole problem if they had a cast on one who looked better than Jerry West. Who plays you in a movie, Mike? Who plays you in a movie?
Ideally. Who do I? Ideally. What age?
If it's an Irish poker? Yeah, an Irish poker? Yeah, an angle with who? That then, I thought, the person I was most interested in having played me was, because they almost, I mean they were, the movie was kind of in play for a while.
It was John Cusack. The young John Cusack, I thought he'd have done it really well. The person who the people who were said to have been cast for the thing and in fact I know this is a lie because I've spoken to one of them anyway Michael J Fox and Tom Cruise. Oh, then I don't think that you ever got that far.
They did cast and had a I think they had a deal with Marlon Brando to play John Goodfriend. Wow Then that would have been great The me now if I somehow I walk into a movie of one of my books I know Jason Bateman. Yeah, he's great. He's really good.
And if I have a dark sinister side, you'll find it And be able to depict it right he's so he's so good at that being something other than he looks Shane mentioned winning time And I think why that's interesting is because obviously that was based on you know a book and it was an adaptation and the real people obviously I don't know if you read cream of dual Jibar. He just had a big sort of piece about it on his sub stack which was fascinating My question for you is with your own work You know what I mean? And when it's sort of taken by filmmakers and sort of created and sort of that whole process happens Are you sensitive to that stuff or to the criticism of that or like when you're watching this winning time situation? Are you thinking oh interesting like I could see myself in that situation with what's going on here?
They haven't strayed in my movies the movies of my books. Yeah, the characters on the screen are way are really close to the characters in real life Even in their mannerisms the actors have kind of huge to reality in a really careful way So and they haven't they haven't done I mean when they take a little bit like where liberties were taken here's an example is in the big short The character one of the characters based on Steve Eisman who they called they named him Mark Balm instead of Steve Eisman And Steve Eisman had an actual tragedy in his life that darkened his view of the world And it was in my book. It was he lost a child. He lost a bit in very curious circumstances And then he had smothered the child maybe fall asleep whatever exactly how it happened was a baby And he was very sensitive about me writing about it understandably And then he decided that he didn't want them.
He didn't want it in the movie So instead they gave him a brother who had committed suicide and it didn't actually so that rank false It wasn't as true. It wasn't as good as serving the purpose for the character But they had to do something Except for that that's the one instance where I think wow they really just kind of took something and made it up Other than the characters wouldn't have had much to complain about it was sort of like it was like the book and they didn't complain about the book So I I would worry about it if I had written a book and Jerry West hadn't thrown you know trophies through windows and had a drinking problem Or whatever it is he's gotten winning game at wing time if I wasn't in the book and they put it in the movie I would have said I think you might get in trouble for this But I don't actually know I don't know what he actually did and and what's true was not so I'm a little bit speaking out of school But it I just haven't I haven't seen them take those kind of liberties. They're little liberties You know conversations that never actually happened But not really big ones taken by the movies when you're watching winning time though And it is so entertaining obviously and there's a lot of criticism about the leniency that they're taking with characters like Jerry West Cream of gold you bar. Do you care as a viewer?
No Not much I'm more interested in the they're creating this character and I'd rather just watch the character I don't care how true it is you can't you as a viewer. I am a basketball fan I know enough about what happened if I don't know they made Kareem Abdul Jamar point guard that would have been a problem You know that so they can't they can't do that But so as long as they aren't really violating some deep understanding I have the material No, it doesn't bother me. All I just has it has to have its own internal logic and it does it clearly does It's funny because I getting my wife to watch sports on TV used to be impossible It was sports movies. I mean sports that kind of thing They're getting so much better at it and getting to my wife with sports related content Ted Lassa was a first really good example But this is another example.
She's engrossed in this and has absolutely no interest in basketball And so that it's it's it's I think it's really working and I assume they have a massive audience And I'm assuming that's why Jerry West is so upset Well, I've been trying to tell people about it and every time I try to tell a friend or be like you have to watch this It's they'll send me an article It'll be creams not happy about this and then there's almost like a shame or embarrassment watching it I feel guilty because I know the people who are being portrayed don't like it Is there like a writer's code? No, you know, it's funny that well the the writer of the thing the writer of the book is Jeff Pearlman Yeah, that's stood by the filmmakers And is I think in his got his own arguments going with people thinks he should throw them under the bus the What I have noticed is I think it does cause trouble for the film if the writer if the writer disproves disapproves of it So I never I mean I've been crowded with the things that they've made my books I think completely abide by the spirit of the book and they're really well done They're great and so I've never had any cause for complaint I think my my view though is even if I had a cause for complaint I took their money. I sold them the book I didn't put any restrictions on what they could do. I really I really shouldn't be complaining publicly about whatever they do I think I would just go if I was in the situation that Jeff Pearlman is in I'd probably do kind of the same thing I'd probably just go hide you on that on that tip Michael I think about your professional life and you know you you're a book writer you write magazine profiles you have a podcast you have a podcast you're gonna turn to movies and I'm kind of curious to know other parts of your Professional life that continue to sort of surprise you or ways that you make money that you know Like if people ask me about the band's finances I'll actually you know touring we make a little bit of money But like we'll do the our private show and that really helps pay the bills or we'll get a commercial for a team Mobile ad that they really pay a lot of money like that kind of stuff in terms of your the Mike the Michael Lewis business Is there parts that would be interesting to just a fan of yours ago?
Actually this part I do a little bit more on the side here or this part delights me in a way that I was unexpected when I got into This business of being Michael Lewis the writer. Well, you I think you'd be amazed how much money I make stripping It's just a little gig it's just a home wall Out that I'm there and people show up and like you know it's just stick it in my G-strip and money balls So the stripping aside from the stripping So what is it's funny that if I think about There's a very loose relationship in fact no no really good relationship between how much time I spend on something and how much money I make And that's the disconnect so I can make a lot of money very quickly doing private events talking just given a speech Which requires no effort no time. I can make a little money sinking my heart myself heart and soul into creating seven Really complicated stories in a podcast It takes all kinds of time and it just doesn't pay that well, but I love doing it the Used to be true of a lot of magazine work. It didn't pay nearly To justify the time if I were just trying to make money if that was the only criteria if I was trying to maximize revenues I do nothing but write books that would be the thing to do right books and give speeches that would be it Everything else is suboptimal and I don't really think very much about it I just like I gotta make sure that I got enough coming in that nobody's that everything is paid for but after that I don't really Spend a lot of time thinking about oh This is a waste of time.
I think much more Is is it creatively worth doing? and So the other thing that might surprise you is how much Of my time in the last 20 years has gone into writing screenplays for tv shows and movies that never got made And for which I was paid handsomely And I'm right about to write one now for apple and apple and touch wood it gets made and I have a tv show that's a drama It's like it's my unsliked ambition that actually run a tv show. What hasn't worked about it so far Heart you know In a couple in the very beginning I said what didn't work was me that I did I was still learning how to write the scripts and tell the stories for the eye For the screen More recently I'd say when someone in the entertainment industry says yes to a movie or it's more tv shows where I went to tv show They're committing to spending tens of millions of dollars And it's very hard for them to pull the trigger and say yes When the person who is going to be the show runner or creator of the thing has never done it before Without your kind of outside. I think that I just don't have the chops in the industry I think the success of the movies has helped some I think what's helped a lot is the splittering of the entertainers So they have lots of different places that make shows and they can throw a little less money But they make their They throw in much more against the wall to see what sticks so they make this make it more stuff And it helps that I've got a really I've now got a really established partner who they will trust Um, but I think part of it's just like If I if they throw a whole bunch of tens of millions of dollars and make a tv show and it flopped They wouldn't have a good excuse for why they did it.
Um, I think I've had that feeling for a few years You know the in against the rules you talk about your examining unfairness In American life and I find this the podcast especially compared to maybe some of the wall street stuff You've done it feels a little bit more community-minded like you know You're you're looking at these people that are really contributing to their communities Where do you think that instinct comes from like you know, you have a natural curiosity for people that are productive and useful and helpful and don't seek a claim Uh, especially where do you think that comes from my mother? What do your mom do? What do she like? It's a very it's very clear connection.
Uh, my mom is still your cholera civic activist in New Orleans Um, she has been she's kind of behind the scenes in in as being kind of run every philanthropic organization in the city in the City of New Orleans and it's behind still behind the scenes in a number of them and she Um, give you an idea of her influence Then the newspaper was the new one was times picky and the 300th anniversary of the city some years ago A few years ago did a did a series on the 300 most influential people important people in the history of the city starting with everyone Be unveiled who kind of create found and my mother was one of us Uh, and but my mother was always she was she she was she never she gets up early every morning and starts goes to work Just figuring out how to help and uh, and I think that my interest in those kind of characters comes partly from watching her Now with the podcast the other thing's going on Is although i'm writing the show and largely framing all the stories and finding the subjects I it's it's unlike the books, which are really an individual sport It's a team sport and i've got three producers around me all of whom nudge me in that direction I think I think there I see what they're moved by and i'm and so their tastes end up finding their way into the shop And they like those characters So but short answers my mother And maybe the longer answer is the negative the reverse of this people who are rich and famous Um, uh, I've seen I seen I saw from a very early time in my career that there was very little connection between how much money you made How how how valuable you were to the society just look at wall street? There are kinds of people make all kinds of money and they're basically making intelligent Uh, and not all of them but enough of them that you can see That it's nonsense to try to measure the value of a person by how much attention or money they have attracted to themselves Yeah, I I took I was rereading liars poker and there's a great Exert if you're a self-possessed man with a healthy sense of detachment from your bank account and someone writes you a check for tens of millions of dollars You probably behave as if you want to sweepstakes kicking your feet in the air and laughing yourself to sleep at night at the miracle You're good fortune, but if your sense of self-worth is morbidly wrapped up in your financial success You probably believe you deserve everything you get you take as a reflection of something grand inside of you I was like, oh, I love that, you know, it's like that sort of detachment from your contribution When you only see money that way yes, you say you're just measuring what's in your bank account You're measuring how many times your name is mentioned in the newspaper or whatever it is I'm not the best way to go through life I don't think and I like to reward people who aren't getting attention. You know, it's really nice I know that when I write something about someone I'm shining a spotlight They're very you know the most useful place for me to shine that spotlight is where there's no light at all And when there's already a lot of attention to being paid to something I get wary I think well, what what purpose am I serving here? I've had some exceptions like where I thought the story so good and I have such a peculiar way into it That even though the person gets a lot of attention they're worth writing about Obama being maybe the best example but That was it wasn't a waste of time shining light there that you could add something But most of the time the characters are people that other people aren't paying attention to even when they're like professional athletes They're not the athletes that people are paying those attention to they're people who are thinks of people think of as bit players or role players or Whatever and it's it's finding sort of finding their explaining their value Well, it's time for me one more one more question.
Um, Mike or Shane. Do you want to take it away? Well, I mean, it's interesting. You know, you're speaking about sort of you've become a famous person your your name carries weight You can open doors.
You know, you're talking about getting the show made and it seems like you like to shine that spotlight He's a power but I'm almost fascinated how you because there's somebody obviously thinks a lot about many things and you frame things in a very unique way How did you sort of frame your own fame as you became more prominent and as the name Michael Lewis sort of to mean something? Did did anything change for you or did it happen gradually like how did you sort of think about your own sort of situation as it evolved and you became Sort of the Michael Lewis that you are now well I actually don't think I'm a famous person. I think a famous person is Brad Pitt I mean, I could nobody bothers me when I walk down the street some of the books are kind of famous because of the movies mainly Um like really famous like you can say the blind side to anybody and they've seen the movie or heard of it Um, but not so I never really thought of myself that way um And I'm always a little surprised when others do Um, it's it's it's being a writing books if you get there if they're bought and read Um Gets you a certain kind of renown. It's just it's different from what you do.
I'm not a rock star like nobody's like Screaming and and and you know begging for my attention. Um, So So it's it's not that hard. I so I don't really think the the the part of your question that like resonates with me a little bit is You've had success doing something writing a particular kind of thing You have to work. I think a little bit not to just try to repeat it and that that not to not to fall into the trap of Doing something because it worked before and you want you want the success rather than the doing of the thing So I've been pretty careful about trying to break with whatever the last thing wasn't do something a little different each time um and taking on things because they were a little different and Challenging my readership such as it is to follow me places where they might not think they wanted to follow me Um, so I try not to I try not to become a character Uh in my own in this in the story of my writing life I saw there was a real object lesson of this for me a writer who who is best stuff.
I just loved hunter hunter s Thompson Um, uh, when I was a kid I read his stuff when I was a young writer I read his stuff I didn't like all of it, but the stuff I like I really liked and towards the end of his life Um, I got invited to come visit him at his house in woody creek, uh, Colorado And it was late at night and he was drinking a lot and he was great. He's delightful guy We got him to read some of his old stuff. He did it with great brieo But I couldn't but but around him on the he'd drug himself into a blivian just drug himself out of writing But and around him on the walls in his kitchen were big Basically card big pieces of cardboard with with passages from his old writing That where he was kind of gone zone hunter s Thompson that it sort of defined him as a character and he used them to remind himself of the character He needed to play imprint. Um, and I think that's a trap I think if you if you start kind of thinking of yourself as the character that people are coming for I think that it's a very dangerous game to play and I don't play that I mean, I'm writing about other people and drawing the attention mostly to other people so um So avoiding the fallacy that I'm a famous person and people are interested in me is Is is kind of important.
I think oh last question. What's on your um, you're writing playlists because last time we talked You talked about how you like to write the happy music and and it's probably a change that much I got it right here. Yeah, but it's uh, you know, I don't change it I change it after a book. I change it when I'm going into the next book And so this is largely this is largely what I would have written the premonition to Um, and it will it will massively adapt be adapted when I Start the next one which I think I'm gonna start soon, but it's gonna be so embarrassing This is my other there's no such thing as guilty pleasure.
I said they're laughing at my musical text Ed Sheeran shivers Niall Horan so long vampire weekend harmony hall. Yeah waving through a window Ben Platt in in uh in that Evan Hansen yeah, so Dwight yolkam suspicious minds if this is goodbye mark knurfler never Lou Harris share just like jesse james Um Obviously if I could find Daniel Rodriguez cholera you ever hear him no I mean, that's a friend of mine runs his band and so uh, hey july fountains of Wayne open your eyes no patrol So patrol has a couple of appearances here. It's something. Um, I have not gotten rid.
I think for several books I've been unable to shake Romeo and juliette with mark knurfler and emmulu parents. Yeah, uh, but so there's like there's a sampling Like 25 songs And it just plays on a loop and I don't hear it. I mean it just shuts out everything I hear it But I don't hear it and it creates this pavlovian response that when I hear the song I think I better start writing and that's a very good thing to have to have that trigger like oh time to write It's like a walk-up song for this whole life. Do you write every day?
Um, no, I don't write every day I write I write to deadlines basically. Um, I got I do something every day, but it's I mean today I recorded I just finished recording episode six of the podcast is tracked it and uh, and I started a layout episode seven But no, no, no, I don't write every day when I'm writing when I'm actually gone deadline with a book Yes, I write every day and uh six or seven hours a day You're going on later the night before the deadline? Close that with children made has made that hard because I still our youngest is A freshman high school. He still needs a ride to school seven thirty in the morning And so it's really hard to do that once he's out of the house.
I might revert I used to uh and I might revert that I really like writing late at night and um and that I could see myself going back to that But it's just it's deadlines. Like I owe someone something and that would I never sit down because I just have to express myself ever Um if I didn't have this career that required the words of me I know words would come out of me It's just it's like demand poll Uh and uh it gets whatever gets me. I mean that's what gets me going once I get going the words come out And how are you with notes? Are you cool or do you just implode?
What do you mean when people like size right here? Yeah, like I work in editing and sometimes I'll show someone and edit and I'll ask for their opinion But if they give me notes, I kind of hate them The problem is with with This is my relationship to editorial advice is almost always this The people who are providing the advice Very seldom almost never know how to fix the problem They might have they often have suggestions about what needs to be done But they are almost always right that there is a problem. Yeah, sometimes they don't even know what the problem is They just smell a problem that something's not working. So what I get from editorial feedback is something's not working What is it?
And oftentimes I had a sense that something was not working And this is leading me to what's not working But then I have to figure out what's not working and oftentimes the solution is really radically different from what they would have imagined And the problem is different a little different from what they imagined but they identify to place like something's wrong here and um And so that that's what that I really value that I really value the added sort of advice generally because it does it does It gives me a sense of when it's not working. Yeah, all right. Well, Michael. Thank you so much Um, I can tell you, you know, every time you put out something new I am blabbering on about it at a party As soon as I consume it, I'm like and here's the thing about the thing You know when it comes to it's like, you know, some people what rocks are you want to meet so-and-so?
And usually answer for me is no No, but if I talking to you really, you know, you've really brought so much comfort And you you allow us to see the world in a different way So your your service to my life is really rich and really meaningful So I just wanted to tell you how much we love you and and really just appreciate the time This is the coolest thing of the of the year. Thank you so much And you just talked your way into free tickets to the moneyballing store Funnyballing when you're next here like well, I will really you get special I'm weeping here pouring my heart into you Michael and you're just talking about your stripping days. Okay, okay All right, thank you so much much. Thank you Thank you guys later anytime Do you keep hearing podcast ads like this one for example?
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