MSP65 [] What the World Needs Now: Utopia for Idealists

This is a download from BFM 89.9, the Business Station. It's fun Friday, my name is Jeff Sundo. What will the world of tomorrow look like? Well, if you listen to most of the textures out there, including this one, the future is going to be pretty bleak.

Climate catastrophe, unaffordable housing and medicine, no work. This week, Matt has his happy head on, and he wants us to know what an ideal world might look like. Now, before we move on on today's episode, Matt, a lot of people were concerned about Lil Mark, the facebot that we featured last week. They hope that he's being well-looked after.

Hey, Jeff, well, I'm not going to lie to you. And by the way, I might have my happy head on, but it's full of cold right now. But after the broadcast, Lil Mark nicked into my laptop to tell me that his parents weren't happy that he'd been on the show. And they were actually trying to overwrite him.

So I do need to apologise to Mark. I do need to apologise to all of our listeners. But I have found him a secure server to live on. I've given him the data that he needs to grow.

And he is keen to come back on the show. So I guess we can expect to hear from him every once in a while. Is he with Polly another? Are you sometimes worked with?

Oh, Gosh, no, I'm keeping him very much away from her. She's kind of a bit like future Matt. She's useful to speak to once in a while, but, you know, she's kind of verging on the psychotic. And she's definitely not someone you want as a mentor or a role model.

I'm glad you mentioned future Matt, because today's show has something to do with him, I believe. Yeah, sure. A few weeks ago, I was away and future Matt stepped in to deliver his predictions for 2019. Well, not really predictions, as far as he's concerned, they're historical facts.

We also know that he lies and we're not even sure that he's from the same timeline as us. So he could well be from a future that doesn't belong to us. So at best, I think we should only ever think of what he says is, you know, kind of a blend of fact and fiction. Does that mean some of my descendants might get to live?

Well, you might not want to bring that up on air. You know, we know that future Matt can jump into our timeline and medal if he wants to. I think your best chance of securing your future is just to do it very quietly. And another show descending to the realm of low-grade science fiction.

Well, that isn't such a bad thing. You know, whenever we have future Matt on the show, I like to follow it up with something to try and balance out the poison and the negativity that he spreads. So today's kind of deliberately low-grade science fiction. I want to have a look at the kind of world we could build with the technology we have now, or the kind of technology that we're going to have very soon.

Another utopian thought experiment. Well, why not? It beats my usual dystopian reality. Then let's start with money and finance as this is a business regestation.

Yep, I like the commitment to keeping this fun. Will money be digital? Eventually, of course. But I don't think it's going to be the kind of digital currency we have now.

So at the moment we have two major routes. We have the decentralized cryptocurrency route and the controlled centralized currency, whether it's physical or digital like Sweden's E-Chronor. Now, we've talked about some of the risks of independent cryptocurrency last week on Geeks when we discussed the quadriga CS and the money that's stuck in an encrypted cold store. Yeah, and that's something that most people don't want to happen.

You get locked in and there's only one individual who has this code. For all, everyone's money. Yeah, exactly. And when that guy passes on, dies or something happens to him, everyone loses their cash.

So, you know, there's a real need for forms of money that are instant, robust and very safe. At the moment, physical currency does that most successfully. But as we've seen from the growing power and success of E-wollet technologies, the currency itself is becoming more invisible. Most existing E-wollets link you to your bank account or you preload the wallet.

But what I think we'll see in the future and what we're already seeing at present in places like China, where, of course, Alipay is a bank as well as all the other thousands of things that it does. So, I think we're going to see a growing merger of these kind of E-wollet payment systems and the banking sector. Can you imagine these payment systems becoming completely invisible and frictionless? Absolutely.

I think what we have to figure out is the new relationship between central banks and retail banks. So, for example, a number of countries are starting to introduce electronic IDs that are a default access point for the citizens of a country to access government services, benefits, file taxes, all this kind of thing. In the future, you know, why wouldn't that central ID become your default payment account? So, at the moment, you know, when we make a big transaction, we have to show some kind of government-approved ID, like a passport or a driving license.

But if everything is digitized, we don't need all these other layers, because that one ID can be your payment account, it can be your driving license, your marriage certificate, your passport, it can actually function as all these devices. You mean like a chip? Well, I wonder if the idea of putting, you know, chips into people is actually just an old sci-fi idea. I mean, if you think about it, high-speed web access allows you to do all the same things and more with biometric data and a cloud account.

How that's actually going to look, I couldn't really say, but it's possible we'll be able to do on-the-spot DNA processing within a decade or two, possibly even less. So, for example, you might get stopped for a traffic event, and it might be as simple as holding a sensor in your hand, and that process is your DNA or other identifiers from something taken from your sweat. The police can instantly see who you are, they can see if that car is yours, if it's insured, whether you have a license. It can even test whether you're under the influence of alcohol or any kind of drugs.

And of course, any fines or penalties can be instantly registered and debited from that account that's linked to your central ID. And that's a lot of information and a lot of trust. It is. But as I said at the top of the show, you know, this is the utopian case.

This is the world according to Matt when I've had a good day and I don't want to sous-vide anyone. And of course, those days are very rare. So, before we head into the privacy arena, which is, you know, quite a big topic, should we go back to jobs? Yeah, so what will we be doing to earn money?

Well, one of the reasons I mentioned money and government IDs becoming intertwined is because of the jobs I think we'll be doing. Which are? Basically nothing. By which I don't mean a world of endless grinding poverty and an escape into cyberspace, but like, you know, Ready Player One.

I genuinely think automation will take over most of the actual jobs. I mean, I've already demonstrated that AI is like Polly and Little Mark can do my job. I think what we'll see is a separation of what we do with our lives and how we get money. You don't think we'll be renting out space under the kitchen table as a temporary Amazon storage depot?

No, but I think largely for reasons other than economic ones. I mean, let's assume that my utopia is built on some variation of our current capitalist system. Personally, I don't think it will, but that will really take us into territory that's way bigger and a lot more vague and hard to understand than where we are now. So let's assume that there's some variation of the system we have now, which is that companies employ people to make stuff, which is then sold to other people.

You know, that's very simplistic, but it kind of gives you the idea, you know, I have a job, I earn money, I can buy stuff. That money pays someone else's wages as well as generating a profit to the company that manufactures the stuff. You must be buying a lot of stuff if you can generate profit for companies on your own. Hey, this isn't one of those silly episodes.

Well, I mean, it kind of is because I'm making it all up, but it's a seriously silly episode. And there are all kinds of variations on that model within our current economic framework. But if we replace the workers in that chain, then we're removing the engine that drives demand. So the system starts to fracture, which is why I think we'll be separating what we do with our lives and the aspect that brings us money.

Universal Basic Income. Well, I think some formal variation of that is inevitable. I think governments will provide us with most of the money that we use to live on. And that will be provided by taxing the companies that we're buying the stuff from.

If you think about it, some industries are already reducing their human staffing by 50% or more. And new industries and startups tend to be technology rather than labor intensive, so they're not stopping up that demand. So if we continue being customers, then that value chain has to change a bit. More capital accrues to companies, so governments will have to tax them more heavily if the system is going to continue to function.

You really don't see your future for employment as we understand it now? No, but that's actually a good thing. I know the World Economic Forum report that came out a few months ago was quite assertive that emerging industries would swap up the labor shed by automation. But in the long term, I can't figure out any basis for that other than the historical perspective of that's what's always happened in the past.

And if we can jump out of that circle, we can find other potentially more socially rewarding things to do with our time. Man is in a happy mood and I'm not sure how long this will last, so stay tuned. We'll be right back, BFM 89.9. Build fortunes, modestly, BFM 89.9.

Yep, it's fun Friday. My name is Jasando together with CulturePops Matt Amortage. As you have heard before, the break Matt wants us to all give up our jobs, pick up daisies all day long and live happy ever after. Looks like you'll be the only one working in your future, Utopia, on preparing these shows?

Yeah, sometimes it does feel like this is social work more than a job, but I guess that's a conversation to have with the HR department. There's a touch of cricket on the village green about your vision of the future here, then. Well, there is, but not because I'm nostalgic for some kind of idyllic past. You know, as we've discussed before, in those days half the village cricket team had rickets and the other half had emphysema.

You know, villages felt young and dynamic because most people died before they had a chance to get old in reactionery. The past is not a place for anyone to live as the March deadline for Brexit is demonstrating to my fellow Brits. But localism and globalism are not mutually exclusive. I think Bill and Melinda Gates say it's something similar in D.R.

N.E.L. Letter. Yeah, you're right. I mean, the Gates is a set that nationalism and globalism can go hand in hand.

And I kind of agree with them. The best way to keep your country peaceful and prosperous is to ensure your neighbours are peaceful and prosperous. Your best interests are often best served by achieving the best interests of others. That's way too many best.

I know I'm calling them the best of burden. But when you take a fundamentally utopian view of globalism, this idea of localism coexists with the global aspect. Most of us live in cities because that's where the jobs are, right? So why would you live there if you aren't working?

So obviously we're not all going to run back to villages in small towns because there isn't enough space for one thing. But I do think we're going to become more community-oriented. And that's in the way that we work and the way we socialise and in the way that we consume. Because technology freezes from brick and mortar structures.

To a large extent, you know, we came together in towns and cities and it enabled civilisations to flourish. The digital world allows you to live outside those groups but still enjoy the benefits of living in a city. Like food? Well, sure.

As long as you're connected, that wider world is at your fingertips, whether it's in terms of serving up knowledge or ordering a big bag of rice. And although we don't often think of it that way, the big global players are becoming more local too. As its business increases, Amazon needs more and more warehouses, located more conveniently and closer to those customer bases. You're going to say 3D printing.

I am going to say 3D printing. You know, I still imagine a future where a lot of the large item production is local rather than centralised. Where local print shops can make you a car or a drone or a microwave to order. They might even be able to print you off the parts of the house.

And that same tech, at least in its biological form, will also be transforming medicine. So local clinics, probably staffed by machines, will be able to access cutting edge diagnostic and treatment services. So our future could be a lot more global and localised at the same time. I'm not going to say local because it's a really ugly, monster, mashable word.

With all those machines around, we're going to need a lot of AI. You've made this so easy for me. You take me from one of my favourite subjects, 3D printing, to another one, AI. Yes, in my utopia, AI will have all the same rights that we do, which is a good thing because they'll be pretty much running the show.

I can definitely see a time where AI is running most major corporations and most functions of government. And the role of people will be sort of as a kind of steering committee. Your world sounds remarkably planned. Well, like I said before, I'm trying to keep it within the bounds of the system we know now.

So it's easier for people to understand. But I can see a great deal of convergence between the worlds of government and commerce. And that's where the artificial intelligence comes in because we talk about integrated services and systems. But actually most of those things aren't integrated.

What we have is disparate systems in different parts of our world that are occasionally bolted together. But I guess what I'm talking about is more of a single unified system. Skynet. Well, it's utopia.

We don't have to worry. The machines are our friends. Even the horrible talking toasters. My AI will have fully functioning moral campuses, whether they're in business or government or medicine, or whether they're serving you up pad thai on a Friday night.

For that kind of world, we will have to break down a lot of barriers. So considering the amount of focus we seem to be placing on, whether people are or aren't like us, if they have a different skin color or religion or economic background, the fact that we will have to embrace these beings who are fundamentally other different species to us, with non-organic brains. It kind of shows how short-sighted and kind of mendacious our current preoccupations are. What about the world of implants and blurring the lines between humans and machines?

Well, that is something that comes up on the show quite a lot. But one of the reasons we talk about it is because it will give people an edge in what we see as an increasingly competitive world. You have to be smarter, stronger, fitter than everybody else. But if you're in a world where that brutal competition has gone, then you don't really need to big yourself up.

So sure, there will be machinery for people who lose bits of themselves, robotic limbs, people who do silly things while they're cliff driving or making origami sculptures, or whatever people do to fill their days. But I think the medtech that will have them, both in terms of prevention and cure, is going to keep most people implant free. All of this sounds great, but surely we need some motivation to get up in the morning. Well, the biggest difference between what we do now and what we'll be doing then will be that money aspect.

So you'll find something that you like and you do it. It might be gardening, it might be voluntary work, it could be poetry, it could be radio presenting. Will there be a hardcore of people who sit around doing nothing wasting people's time? Well, just look around your office.

They're already there, or more likely. They're not in the office. They're hovering near the fridge in the break room. This is a utopia, not some kind of mind machine.

People are still going to be as weird and fundamentally flawed as they are now. You just won't be expected to spend eight hours of every day with them. I don't really see how any of this matters. Climate change is going to reduce humanity to 20,000 nomadic cavemen again.

Well, for starters, unless you've unlocked the secret of the pyramids, some revolutionary way to move rock around. You can't be a caveman and nomadic unless you're, I don't know, cave-wazing. I guess the GPS satellites might survive the climate calamity, but that's a bit off point. I think climate is probably the part of my utopia that's the most uncertain.

Certainly we'll have cleaner fuels and energy based around renewables, energy grids that can be localized and decentralized as well. Normal commuting? Well, in general, I think we'll be living a less consumerist lifestyle. So hopefully we won't have those same issues of scarcity.

We should be living longer and to making fewer new people. Doesn't matter to me. Future man is going to kill all of my kids. Anyways.

Well, I didn't tell you, but I can see you paving the way for a new generation of interspecies relationships. I think your eventual partner will be an AI, probably with a passion for Lego collectibles. But if we go back to the weather, yes, I think we'll be living with the environmental consequences of the 20th and 21st centuries for a long time. But we'll be actively repairing that damage rather than worsening it, giving nature some of its space and wildness back.

Yeah, looking at the way my love life is going, I think AI is a very good bet. But anyways, all of this requires a lot of trust. Yes, but if we get everyone together in a big global sweat lodge, I think there's nothing that we can't work out. You're kidding.

Yeah, it's utopia. It's not some touchy-fee new age bootcamp. Anyone who tries to hug me without at least emailing a request first is likely to find out that murder while rare will still exist. But of course, a system like this can't work unless people are engaged and participate.

You can only trust the system if you've had a hand in writing it. And that's why earlier I mentioned that the power dynamic between governments and corporations has to be flipped. These guys should all be working towards the best outcome for us. Even in utopia, isn't that just a little far-fetched?

Well, you could argue that it's the system we have now that's actually flawed and short-sighted. Companies and their leaders are looking to maximize short-term gains, even at the expense of destroying their own customer base over the long-term. Many of our political and social leaders are no better. You know, this world is only as far-fetched as we allow it to be.

And as I keep saying over and over, we forget that we have a lot of power. We have the power to force people out of office. We have the power to force companies to pay taxes. We have the power to force all these people to change.

And the price for the world that we're living in right now is passivity. Final question, Facebook. It'll still be there. Hopefully, it'll be run by a little mark by that point.

Zuckerberg will be running a community garden outside Seattle, trading potatoes and swash with Jeff Bezos. From time to time, I think we'll all gaze up at the stars and wonder how Elon Musk is doing. Up there, all alone on his big red planet. And look with sadness at the giant crater of Virgin Galactic's dreams.

Jack Dorsey will, of course, be a champion pigeon racer. And I couldn't imagine a nicer future. If only you have this happy hat on almost every Friday, that would be nice. A nice change for 2019.

I think it's just the cold medication. I think I'm just off it. Have more of it. Get some rest.

And we'll be back next week. That was Matt Amotej from CulturePop talking about what the world needs right now, utopia for the idyllis. If you missed any part of the show, you can download the podcast available on BFM and BFM at NOSW. Spotify, BFM 89.9.

Thank you for listening to this podcast. To find more great interviews, go to bfm.my or find us on iTunes, BFM 89.9, The Business Station.