Non Violent Communication

I, V, M. M. 20 minutes to get out, but okay. Yeah, so all that, what about OCD?

OCD about creases, right? So she's worse than batsman. MS. Donnie behind the stems.

MS. Donnie behind the stump. I mean, she keeps signing everything, and she needs an ironing board in the room at all times. And my problem with the ironing board is that it closed the door.

So every time there is any kind of violence with the door, the damn thing like, it'll fall on me. Let's talk about the violence at the door. I think that's more interesting to say about this. Yeah, yeah.

So my son has a habit of just bargeing in. If you are sitting close to the door, you have to make sure there's no space for the door to open because he's apt to just roll into the room like a tornado or pipe. Yeah, then what he should do, Darrin, is I think you should place a bell outside so that he can ring it before he comes in. So then if you look at the three of us right now, then you will have a ring instrument while Tony and I have string instruments behind us.

And I mean, does he hate Jim? Does he say he'd hate Jim Morrison? Because why is he slamming doors? Oh, Jim.

Oh, that worked on multiple levels. Oh, okay. Well played. Yeah.

Well, you're surprising knowledge of classic rock is my door. Darshan is quite. Yeah. Tony is really up the game.

Yeah, he's my son is not an actually fond of the doors himself. So yeah, I'm forced to listen to the group all the time. So I was trying to do one and open the doors for as it were for the topic at hand. Yeah.

Yeah. From violence slamming off doors to more non-violent ways of communicating. Yeah. All about violence.

That's why the topic of today is something called non-violence. Basically simplify for the last 270 episodes. Yeah. It reminded me of one of yes, yes, but I'm in this third episode.

So where Humphrey is, you know, he was in the past responsible for conducting a departmental inquiry on one of his colleagues who was the head of MI6 who later turned out to be a spy. But, you know, Humphrey did all the interrogation and he found no evidence and he exonerated him completely. Oh, yeah. So now the needle of suspicion is on Humphrey.

Humphrey is, Jim Hacker is making him sweat a lot. And Humphrey is saying, you know, there were subtleties. This was the unconfrontational approach. This is how we conduct inquiries.

So Jim Hacker says, oh, you lulled him into a true sense of humor. That's why I said, for those who have wondered this in the past, nothing is not actually reading this outcome somewhere. He's inciting yes, minister scripts from memory. It must be said.

Yeah. Good clarification to make on the first video recorded episode of Simplified. There was a time when I knew like, Swedes of that of Humphrey's dialogue. It's like swimming.

You just need to get into the pool. So we'll sign you up for a situation and I'm sure it'll all come rushing back to you. But let us actually rush into the topic at hand. We keep deviating from it.

Non-violent communication, you say. It's very interesting. And I came across this recently. I was reading something and it made a lot of sense.

Now, in a nutshell, so whenever we communicate with people, you know, in different situations, box situations, personal situations, among friends, among acquaintances, every now and then there is cause for conflict. This happens if two people are together, interacting in any way. Conflict is bound to happen. And yeah, you know, how dare you?

This was stupid. So this is what happened, right? We tend to personalize it and we tend to attack the person rather than the issue at hand. And then it becomes personal.

Then it's no longer and it becomes harder and harder for the conflict to resolve. It occasionally spirals so out of control that, you know, people who once loved each other cannot bear the sight of each other, they divorced or some people who are absolutely a team at work. Now, you know, are actually working at cross-purposes to the organization. What's the difference?

Just want to ask what's the difference between this type of coming attack on a person during a communication and Marshall Mathers during the lockdown? What's the difference? One is at Hominem and the other is at Homeminem. Oh, well, Chuck has been dethroned.

So Chuck, you can officially handle it. I empathize with Nishkumar sometimes. Like, wow, well done, Tony. That was really good.

I mean, what I'm growing more is the fact that your knowledge of music has been risen to dangerous levels and I say dangerous because I'm going to add one more arrow into your arsenal of, you know, pun references and things like that. So many of you will talk about this later. I'm going to say, wait till I start quoting Linking part now. The question is, what do you do?

You cannot eliminate conflict. It's not possible. It's a human condition. And in fact, oftentimes conflict is desirable.

It helps the creative process for some time. Oftentimes it helps avoid mistakes. If I were taking a decision, I'd say it's a work situation. I'm taking a decision.

And I have somebody who is questioning me. I'm more likely to sort of reevaluate my assumptions or priors or whatever before taking the decision because it could be that I might put my company at a loss. So conflict is desirable in many cases. Only problem is you don't want it to degenerate into a Eminem at home kind of thing.

It has an interesting history. So it was a device by this guy named Marshall Rosenberg. And where Marshall Rosenberg came from is he wanted to end racial segregation in schools, generally racial segregation in the south in that tumultuous period in the US. He was a Jewish guy and growing up, he became a psychologist.

And he suffered a lot of anti-Semitism and things like that. So he had been sort of trying all his life to engage people constructively. So if somebody is racist or anti-semitic to you, your first reaction is one of either you cover in fear and try to slink away, you wouldn't instinctively reason with your attack. Marshall Rosenberg found that if you empathize with the guy or whoever it is that is attacking you and try to find where they're coming from, it would oftentimes be possible to resolve the conflict in a very beneficial way to both people.

That's where he was coming from. He applied to racial integration. He sort of had a good deal of success. He became quite a famous guy.

What time period was it? 60, 70s, late 60s, early 70s. If you were now, he wouldn't be Marshall Rosenberg, he'd be Marshall Woke in book. If you look at it, it sounds like a work manifest only.

But I'll be trying to apply it to work situations more because home will be really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, you smiled a little too much. And he said that's a let us be close. Coming from a person who was stuck behind the iron board and hard place, I believe you're listening to what you're saying is try to see where the other person is coming from and address that rather than the fact that the attack key is Jew or Black or whatever the case is. It's kind of interesting.

No, and simple things. I was a few minutes late to the recording. And if you really had an important meeting right after this recording and you're really counting the minutes, you would be able to say, what is this? We expect to start with.

Yeah. And for me, you didn't hear what we said. Yeah. So for me, it is important to keep my cool and try and understand why you are irritated.

Right? Rather than assuming that you guys are irritated with me because you don't like me and you never like me and you think I'm a user from others, I just find a lot of control. Rather than that, all of which might be true, but you know, you would never think like that. On your part, it would be very helpful to consider why I might be later.

I might be coming from somewhere, maybe another meeting, maybe I was stuck in traffic, maybe I had some glitches in my internet, whatever. That forms a basis for action and you can say that you're in future. Please make sure that you're here five minutes earlier rather than later because there are these work meeting situations which I just cannot avoid being late or something like that. So that's how nonviolent communication is.

Obviously, it's very idealistic. It's totally a production basis. You can just keep going on and on about it. But some of the core principles I really liked and I'm trying to implement this.

Incidentally, when Satya Nadella took over as CEO of Microsoft, the first thing he made people read, he all his senior people was a Marshall Rosenberg's book. He has a, I don't know, what a book is called, but I'll try and link to it in the show. It's kind of a matter of intuitive to how the species evolved. I'm guessing those two reactions that you said, which is you either retreat or you attack.

That seems like kind of what our wiring actually is. And this is kind of like a way to evolve out of that. Correct. There are opposing axes to this.

So one is group dynamics. So within the tribe, we've till very, very, very recently, we were just going to gather our tribes. And within the tribe, it was important to get food rights, to get mating rights, to get whatever to have a sort of either acceptance or leadership position within the tribe. And if you didn't have a leadership position or acceptance position, you would suffer in every way, even security, even.

So I was reading somewhere, you know, back in the like, if the group is sleeping and somebody wants to like really screw you, all they have to do is silently get up and go away. And if you just continue sleeping alone for an extra 30 minutes, chances are something or someone in the jungle will kill you. That's why you really, really need to be part of a team. That's why it's so important for us to have everyone else's approval.

Everyone talks about being, I don't care. I don't this. I don't care what other people say. But at a very fundamental level, you do because that's the way your hard work.

You do care about what people say and think about you. So that is one. And the second thing is because you're a hunter gather group, your food security depends on how well and gender security depends on how well you work as a team. So if you have some members who are not on board with, it could compromise everything.

You could die of hunger or you could die of an attack by a rifle group. So at some level, we are hardwired to cooperate and be part of the team. Yeah. And the consequences are large, right?

It's not like you can leave one group and join another. Basically, born into a tribe, you have to be there. Yeah. Thing is, as civilization progressed into modern times, especially so, your physical security and a lot of the jungle aspects of insecurity have gone away.

Really, you're not worried about food. You're not worried about a wild animal forming anything. You're worried about some strange tribe coming and beating you up. The other part of the thing, the group dynamics, where you need to be about someone or better than someone, that is still under strain.

And so, you oftentimes find, especially in political leadership situation, there are people who will do anything to overcome some other eyeball than come up. It does lead to violent communication. So it's also practical for people to be able to parse this rationally. Because if you react immediately or react with passion or in anger, it's always going to be a reaction which is not your benefit.

That's what Marshall doesn't do. Yeah. Let's ruminate over that for a big hand. Should we take a non-violent break?

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See you folks. Welcome back after that little break, non-adcomitant break. And we were discussing about non-violent communication. This reminded me, I just wanted to give you one example that I remember during the, I mean the last few years, I mean some of the odd years politically around the world, right?

Especially in the US there was this one website that somebody had started. I forget what the name is and all that but it's a nice idea that they basically wanted to get Democrats and Republicans to sign up and kind of pair them with each other, basis their locality and invite them for a conversation across the table. So they could see each other's point of view and that many of them are not attacking Democrat because he or she is a Democrat but because they're coming from a certain world view point of view, like lived experience and all that. And of course the reverse is what it's not like all Republicans are, you know, racists and whatever but they are coming from a certain point of view of security and seeing their jobs being taken away by somebody and whatever the case may be.

And I remember watching some videos on that and how people became friends and so it was a very small experiment, unlikely to have gone to scale but it kind of underlined the potential for something like this. I mean a lot of media unfortunately is driven by these kind of you know you want their extremity, yeah, do you want the violent communication to drive eyeballs to drive traffic to drive advertising etc. It just makes me feel like what different discussions could actually be had with rational discussions with two people from opposing sides of the table. So the potential is there I think human beings especially when you see each other in real life and have a discussion across the table.

Those idealistic things that you said could actually come out in the open. Oh well maybe that's too much a dream of politically but yeah I think on a daily level. What's majority of people? I don't know why you really you will not show if there is situation where there is violence in our office.

Let's say you're working on our and two people are fighting. Your impulse is to shy away from it. You don't only part of the violence day you know sort of get into it but there is a small minority of people who totally thrive on that so they like to you know and that's that's what causes the problem and there is this observation that when mobs form and start inciting violence all of us we have a threshold so some of us might be the ones to start the violence. Some of us might join after 10 people have started while you know writing and some of us wouldn't till 100 people are joined but all of us probably have a threshold.

So the focus has to be on the people who actually go and start. To have the same dynamic but with far less violence although I didn't make a pair of glasses in once. Anyway that's not what we were talking about but is there a definition to violent communication as a twist or non-violent? There is a it's basically when you go ad hominem to use one word that you haven't used it ad hominem and basically when you you try to view everything in a personal hidden agenda lens so malicious intent so you assume that everything that is done.

The other thing is when you personalize things so if somebody one of your colleagues made a presentation let us say they're important to you important to your entire group and left out some key slides. And if you go and across him and say you're a stupid fellow you're an idiot you can expect nothing better or you're not at rest the issue at hand you're not even told that person or not even discuss why those slides were left out or what possible reasons could be. You have already attacked him or her as a incompetent or foolish person so you lost that person basically. As the attacker has made the assumption that this person is as incompetent or stupid in every other aspect of his over life.

Like the famous philosopher Sachin Tendulkar once said play the ball on merit and not on the reputation of the polarization. I can't find who actually unless there's a cricket podcast around that can actually get to the root of that we will actually say that Bandara is a resident. But yeah what are you saying? That brings us to the very interesting question of anger.

Anger is also very natural, very spontaneous emotion. So you see anger from toddlers to every age and every social level there is anger in some form or the other. And it's very interesting so there are at least three categories where you can put anger into many categories. But the most interesting categories are the passive.

So passive anger is when you know I'm upset about something you said I just stopped talking. I'm just excessively political. What is the difference there is? Yeah it's there I don't want to have anything to do with you and you have never been told what exactly it is.

Good luck with resolving that. You have no clue. Let us say you made a pun which I found. Let's say okay and the best thing for me to do is tell you that Mars is a offensive pun.

It's not nice or I find your offensive and I apologize more just silently here. You can't help offending some people some of the time. You might be a hardcore Eminem fan right now and you are this resentment. I'm so offended right?

So I should have been like I contact with Tony anyway. Tony would never know what my beef with that Eminem pun was. That is one. I got to be that's the worst.

And almost equally bad with the aggressive version of this. So aggressive anger is when usually it'll happen in a stressful environment. It happens. You have an important fight to catch and they tell you that the fight is cancelled or something or it's very much delayed.

Your first impulse is to find someone and get a dead person. We all do that. Usually in the person who told you that some poor guy thought of you know just a management training kind of guy is basically told to go and then you catch everyone catches them and abuses the hell out of it. One mistake to me is that it'll be your management plany in your case.

I'm really sorry. Chuck that's really your sense of fight. I have to do that. No but I just remembered yeah basically like my dad worked for the Department of Telecom which later became BSNL which he retired there at the like age of 60 and then but basically there are directories for you know listing people's contacts and whatever.

So this is like some two years after he's retired he gets a phone call and that person's like are you you know this person who's supposed to be handling BSNL. He said no I retired but like you know is there something I can help you with I can you know direct you to the right contact or I can you know just take down to complain myself. It's like no no I have no complaint I just wanted to obey something. My dad is like okay maybe they'll try it.

I'm sure your dad had a hard knee off after that hence the age of expansion of BSNL which is badass at rest in now laughing sorry. Wow. That was really open. I was like I was like I was like I'm here to sit badass at rest in now let's see what the story goes to where I can feel at the end of it.

But even though I'm listening this is how we like simplify it to stuff now on the flight. Yeah yeah. On the way because we are management plane you see. Oh nice.

We are winging it. I think we're belittling an actually serious topic with all this unnecessary flights. It's like yeah flights. I was wondering.

Narrains reactions to us trying to derail the conversation is a perfect example in non-viliability. Still got a bien fix my lawn and is carrying on gabley. I should be I should be Bernard Gullish and point out that you can't really derail a plane right so it'll have to be something else. It's a kind of thing Bernard will say.

But yes. So you keep it pent up inside you or you. Yeah so we were talking about external and internal causes of anger. So external causes are a stressful environment or an event or if somebody just comes and feels like it's like something unfair or something unfair has been done to you and you need to kind of like react instinctively or something like that.

Yeah yeah there are internal causes also so if you're worried about something else stressed about something else or you know you have internal causes you're anxious about something you're worried about something else you're more likely to be angry for a provocation which in normal times you would. If you haven't had a meal if you haven't had breakfast. Yeah if you haven't had a meal of the communist thing right so they found an interesting study done on bail application in the US code. Yeah yeah there was an enormous difference between a bail granted before lunch and after lunch.

Yeah before lunch. Yeah before lunch. Yeah before lunch. Yeah everybody gets refused bail and after lunch.

I think you're wondering if intermittent fasting people are actually like I'm doing intermittent fasting but actually to decide a point but once you're used to the thing you have actually a mood feels better and all that but in fact I've been fasting I'm planning to offer fasting as a service so any political Randy is anyone wants to hunger strike anything. Oh wow great somebody reasonable I'll go and fast for you yeah. First thing as a sir. Quick plug say thank you.

Now the commercial is amazing. Actually it could even be better. Sorry. So why everybody is just trying for 10 minute to interview you're the guy who's actually fasting.

Yeah I think this is definitely has the. We fast go and tell we fast you know I fast you know whoever. Intermittent fast was gently the bowling pioneered by Venkitesh person. Bowling pioneered by Venkitesh person.

Bowling pioneered by Venkitesh person. He would bore like five slower balls and occasionally more faster. Intermittent fast. Now please bring us back to this topic before.

Even Tony opening into 90s Indian pace bowling so. 70s 70s was even more awesome right. But I remember when we were there was this guy. Yes but again we are talking about this one.

Here this is a from pace now it's a spin off conversation. Please tell us more about this. So yeah we were talking about anger. So the point is knowing all these causes is important because that helps you manage your anger.

Yeah and expressing anger is almost never beneficial to anyone. Even if you genuinely feel and you're right just feel and you deserve to feel anger. It's not a good idea to express. So you need to know your trigger signs.

So you need to identify negative thought patterns in my case it happens. I know I literally know when I'm going to get angry of very very often. It just go into that loop and you know that you're going to then the other thing is triggering. So you have some people places or situations that trigger you.

And it's a good idea to avoid this. You may have some irritating relatives or you know it happens in many of our watch site groups. I avoid some family watch site groups. I just do not I consciously don't look at it.

I just swipe it. I don't want to leave it because then it becomes a huge thing like oh he's left the watch site. But I just swipe it. Watch site is beautiful.

Just sort of open it and just close it's not even in your. So that's one of the things to do. So because if I start fighting on my family watch site group there'll be no more podcast. There will be no more.

I will just be doing this full time of big family. Lots of people and literally everyone is. So this is an interesting way of dealing with anger which is to think of what the outcome will be. I think that's something my therapist also told me once but you are taking it on the extreme.

Like he told me he said like they will be ruined or your phone will be broken or whatever. You're taking it on the level saying that oh if I give into this anger then I will have to waste all my time engaging with bulbs on WhatsApp. I think thinking about the outcome hence is and also just generally speaking about that if you're angry I think it's very good idea. You're right.

Identifying anger and all that is yeah. Identifying the girls and all that is very very useful exercise. Simple things but just. And the other thing is the good old count up to 10.

Basically what it means is you wait till your calm before expressing your display. Just shut up and just wait. This is very useful in work situation. Work situation is very important not to respond to me.

If you're actually never right of me angry. Just stop it. So what does it mean? One two three four five six seven eight nine ten.

So then what like sometimes sometimes situations demand an immediate response. So one thing is extremely satisfying to yell at someone. Actually I used to say that I have a small business right. I can't yell at my customers because they don't they won't give me orders.

I can't yell at my suppliers because they won't give me material. And I can't yell at my employees because if they don't turn up to work how am I going to run my business. I can't yell at my wife because if she leaves me where am I going to get such a beautiful wife ever again. So that's not going to happen.

This is why you joined Twitter. I was about to ask him is that what this is for. We finally have it after close to 280 episodes. If you find my mission statement this is where Narayan is upstream.

Nice. So feel free Narayan. So yeah I can yell at my kids because who's going to apply me with alcohol. I don't think as far as you do Narayan.

I think you're like what you said right now can apply to anybody who has ever yelled like a boss who's yelled at us about it. Like things sit through like this person can leave tomorrow. Like as we're seeing in the company called Ola and like I think you're just an eyesight. No but I think I think you're excited.

I'm just saying like I think probably when Narayan meant to us like he is quick to anger but he has to find a way to. So what I used to do was I used to call up air tell back in the day and I used to yell at them and air tell was so nice. They are they trained their employees so well they're apologizing. You can yell at them for the potholes in the road.

Air tell guys is still say sorry sir we'll see what we can. They are absolutely the most volatile. I know how now because my anger management is much much better. I don't need to call them and yell at them.

I'm in the way for Iceland tourism during the pandemic. So if you're feeling stressed because you're inside the house just call up this number and yell let it all out. And Iceland has actually placed speakers in some random locations in remote Iceland and the screams just go into the ether. Into the void over there that is kind of brilliant.

There's this concept called a rage. Yeah yeah. Primarily the US where you can basically like go in pay a fee and destroy everything. I was one actually.

Yeah the most common thing item that they had to keep replacing was printers. Because I said everyone wants to smash printers. Why not? I looked up and there was a rage.

I would not do it just for the experience of it. I have anger issues as far as I can tell but there's a broken table over here. So hey what do I know? Apparently India's only a rage room is an indoor.

So oh I can't find one. There's a rage room somewhere in the whereabouts of Mumbai. Yeah I mean here's the thing right like therapists come time box for 15 minutes. Let's say the rage room is the same concept and the person still going on.

Who is going to stop? You have to go in and say sorry I have 15 minutes this up. Yeah you take 15 minutes. Oh god.

That's amazing. Oh man yeah. That's the biggest right somebody comes up on shark with a startup ID or whatever. It's a one question they have to figure out.

I'm sorry. Your manifest is rage on the roads right? Yeah. No and it's very sad.

It's very sad. I mean the traffic situation is very impossible. They have and then you have these fights and while it's really it's just a dent on your car or your bike or whatever and no matter how much you beat the other guy up the dent are going to fix itself. So what really do you achieve?

But it's very important for people to threaten. There are even cases where the guy. There was one case a few years ago where one fellow was so angry he picked the other one and that person died. Yeah.

And this guy decided to take off. It was one of those punas expressed to all of it. And obviously he was caught down camera. They identified him and that guy for the satisfaction of that little outburst is now doing life in prison.

What is worth it? Yeah. He's like it over. Yeah.

Wow we've covered a fair bit of entry. We went from non-violent communication to the actual punas. Punas expressed it. Yeah.

That was faster. Faster than the punas expressed it. Yeah we take stock of the situation. Don't shoot the messenger.

So basically identify and manage your anger. So anger cannot be avoided. If you do feel anger you have to express it assertively. Always identify the issue and attack the issue.

So whatever. Now if you're late you should just tell the person for me that I don't like you to be late because it's everybody's time to be on time or something like that. And not resort to add hominom attacks and you're still paid and so on and so forth. And so Prashir Rosenberg also, I know a lot of other people, they found this very spiritual.

They founded the whole process of non-violent communication, very spiritual. Christians for example. So if you go to the very very very essence of Christianity, you remove all the, you know the basic thing is you love your fellow human beings. That is the essence of Christianity.

You have supposed to come from a place of compassion and love. So a lot of Christians thought that it had meaning in Christianity. And a lot of Buddhists felt that it came from the Buddhist sort of central tenet that you shouldn't have any attachment to anything. And the origin of anger is an attachment to things.

So if you don't have attachment to anything you will not feel anger. So these kind of things. Non-violent communication has this big spiritual angle. So that is one thing too.

I remember seeing some comedian somewhere saying how all religions essentially boil down to don't be addicted to other people essentially. Exactly. And I tried to Google this to see who said it. I couldn't figure out who said it.

But what I do have over here and this is likely to offend some people or not. It's a t-shirt with Jesus Christ on this thing. Don't be a t-shirt. I think one of the most common or popular members is in the US as WWJV.

What would Jesus Christ do? Just interesting. Yesterday I unrelated to this particular topic. But my wife never discussing about how to handle certain kinds of situations.

And she has a friend who handles those kinds of situations very well. And now she uses that person as a reference. So exactly what he said. She has an acronym.

What would X be? X be? Yeah. WWX be.

Or WWX be. S or something. For say or something. Kind of interesting.

Maybe we can have these note stars in our lives and just think about what would like Marine eat for example. And not to stereotype. Or how would Tony write for example. Yeah.

Good. So if you're really scraping the button on the barrel. But I think see the fundamental sort of difficulty here is that someone who gets angry from time to time knows that they have faced difficulties because of their anger. Yeah.

But they are not going into it with a logical frame of mind to say, you know, I jeopardize myself by getting angry. Yeah. Yeah. And by definition non-violent communication all about rationality.

So if your rational mind is not operating, how do you get someone to be non-violent? So that's an interesting criticism of, that is one of the main criticisms of non-violent communication is so the relative strength of the individual is vastly overestimated. So it works for most of us. We are privileged people.

We don't have to deal with, you know, in control of itself. Many of the, so they're called structural violence, right? So racism or poverty or those kind of things. They're always there for some people.

It's not there for us. We are at the top of the heap. No one is, you know, chasing you out of room. No one is saying, sorry, you can't sit here with the wrong cast or the wrong community or whatever.

All those kind of things don't happen to you. And what about someone who does they have that pent-in frustration and anger at all times. And what if they keep getting violent in communication? How do you deal with that?

The non-violent communication groups answer to that is, it is part of the problem. I mean, it's a problem, it's another kind of problem that you have to solve. But the fact remains that everyone has to communicate non-violently in order to work as a group. It's idealistic, not necessarily completely practical.

So the main criticism is a lot of faff and more. No, I don't think it's faff. I think it makes sense. It's just that it's a little, again, it's more idealistic than practical, at least, like especially.

I think it makes sense at an individual level. It makes sense for you too. You can't expect everyone to be non-violent in that communication. You can't.

But it's a loop. Optimistic. No. Yeah, I think this time.

It's been covered with a fair bit of ground. Yeah. Yeah. So let's sign off by saying that stay safe, stay non-violent, and stay simple.