On The Grass: Adrian Bradbury on Developing Character

Welcome to On The Grass with me, Dan Wright. The only shows is to speak to people making a difference in the talent development space. What can we learn from them, and what might we tweak in our environment? In this episode, I'm joined by Adrian Brebry.

Adrian spent the last 10 years identifying a nurturing talent in East Africa. In this conversation, we discussed character, which Adrian is truly passionate about. The challenges that the kids have on the pitch often have nothing to do with the ball, right? And I think we're discovering all those things now, right?

So, all the tools we're giving them, this is the false part of it for me as well as that. We're trying to give them all these tools, like all the things I talked about, we're like, how does that make them better for balls, right? That's how we're... But if all the bring in all this baggage from school, from home, from wherever, they have girlfriend, all this stuff, it's real in their world, right?

And it's important to them. The tools we're giving them is to help them manage all that stuff, so that when they arrive on the football pitch, they can worry and focus on football. And so, it's doing both, and I think that's the thing. It's all its tools for life that, yeah, could apply on the pitch, but it's also helping to manage the rest of their lives, so that the stuff that they have fun with and bring them joy, they can actually help them with it and, you know, have joy on them.

Adrian Chez's approach to character development. Why he thinks at some point, how would he go about developing it, both on and off the pitch, as well as some complexities when working with young people? I really enjoyed this discussion, which was for the moments of reflection from me. If you enjoyed the show, please let us know by Twitter, at CoachDanRight or at PlayDP.

Let's get started. Hello, and welcome to another episode of On The Grass. I'm Dan Wright, and today I'm joined by Adrian Brebrian. How are you?

Good. How are you doing? I'm very well, thank you. We've been trying to get this conversation together for quite a few months and difficult schedules and we've been in different parts of the world and stuff, so really pleased that you can join us today.

Really difficult start, so 60 seconds trying to explain who you are and what you do. Yes, so I'm currently the co-founder and co-executive director of a Scent Soccer, so we lead and run the largest full-time residential football academy in East Africa. We have bases in both Uganda and Malawi. I've been in Uganda full-time for the past five years and now with this merger of two entities coming together, I have a partner, George M.

Weir, who's delivering everything on the ground in East Africa, and then I based in Toronto, North America, leading in our partnerships and fundraising, our character development programs as well as our pathways for our kids both academic and professionally. And while I'm here, I'm also working with St. Andrew's College, which is a always private school in Toronto, to help develop a full-time residential soccer program there and actually two of our scholar graduates, Ali from Kenya and Jafri from Uganda are full-time with us at that program there. Fantastic, and you've done a bit of content with the PDP before so people could dive into that if they want a little bit more story, but I suppose we probably do need to touch on the context a little bit more because it's unusual and it's different, and the idea of that 60 seconds is we get a flavour for what you're doing, but people might need a little bit more of a setting.

So why East Africa and how did that come about? Why football and how did someone from Canada end up running a football academy in East Africa, I suppose it's the obvious question. Yeah, why Canada? I don't know if I have any answer for that question.

I actually ended up in Uganda, had nothing to do with football. I ended up there in the midst of the Civil War, at the height of the Civil War, the biggest impact was on kids and the issue of child soldiers and child deduction, and I ran this crazy little stunt in Toronto called Gulu Walk, where the kids were walking from their rural villages in towns like Gulu, who knows when you got into the avoid-adduction. So they'd walk at dusk as far as kind of 10, 12 kilometers, sleep in front of church, to make sure shelters and they'd stroll home in the mornings and go on with their day, and it was the only way they could stay safe, that was the only way they could avoid abduction. And so we replicated that walk here in Toronto, which was a friend of mine, and said, it was a crazy idea, what if we did what the kids do for a month, and it's a way to tell the story.

And so that's what we did, and this little stunt that I thought would give a little media attention and tell the story took over my life for a period of eight years. And so I was back and forth in the region, in northern Uganda two or three times a year between kind of 2005, 2010. And we were, yeah, part of that advocacy initiative, that a lot of work at the United Nations and the Canadian government was playing a lead role then. And so it had nothing to do with football at all.

I actually played university basketball. So we have this advocate, Canadian university basketball player leading football academy in Uganda, makes perfect sense. And so, yeah, and the reason it started kind of twofold one of my kids, my children, got involved with the game and so I started to dig deeper into the game and then spending all the time that I had in Uganda, just saw how important the game was. It was everything.

And I started to become a bigger fan of the game and started to dive deeper into it and was just, when you look at it, I know the names of all these incredible professionals from West Africa, from Ghana and Ivory Coast and Cameroon and Senegal, and then you'd have to really, really dig to find any piece of Africa, and then the main thing that jumps out is Victor Wanyama, who's now wanted to be MLS, in a lot of places, and nothing beyond that. And so started to dig into why and that kind of started the journey around youth football and starting to provide opportunities. And what I learned was the talent was there, the desire was there, the hunger for the game was there. There was just zero opportunities.

The playing field wasn't a level one. And so what we're trying to do is tip that as much as we can and provide pathways and opportunities and starting at the young decisions and try to give them a genuine professional lead environment, not just a footballing one, but an academic one and a character one and giving them the tools to be great footballers and they'll have an addition to be pros, but also to be great people and future leaders in their communities. And so that led to you running a full time academy, like I said, connect to the education and football every day. Talk to us or give us a flavor of what that looks like maybe for a young person, how do they get into that system, what they day to day looks like, and what maybe the pathways or the aspirations are for those people.

Yeah, so first finding kids in ID and that's still a work in progress. There aren't formal structures and leagues and events. And so it's a lot of time on dusty roads and open trials and events and use the radio and spreading the word and community leaders to get involved. And yes, lots of a bit of a mixed bag on what works and what doesn't and trying to build a quote unquote process is a difficult one, but we certainly learned a lot in Uganda.

We combined we've seen over 50,000 kids to select the 100 that we have full time now and our academy is just over 100. So we do try to find the best of the best. It is for us kind of all about investing in talent. I think when people here, well, Northern Uganda or Malawi, one of the poorest places on the continent, you know, shouldn't it just be grassroots programs and events for all and just such as many as kids as possible.

And I think our bias or there are a lot of those programs, clean water and education for all and immunization and healthcare and all those things are vitally important. Kind of spending my time there and why we're doing what we're doing is I think the biggest gap is an investment in talent and big believers. If we're going to kind of break the cycle of poverty that we need to invest in special kids and give them a little bit more and a little extra and give them the tools to do special things. We do it for our own kids and all the extra tutoring and lessons and one to one coaching and all the extra things we do for them.

But it's the last time we think about doing it in a place like Malawi, Uganda. So we want to change that and we believe you can do both. And so that's what we try to do in our environment. We've had both in our kind of journey, kind of both academic partners where our kids were boarded and then we run the football programming in and around that schedule.

And then now we're shifting to a full time residential model. Right now where the kids are all housed and together and we run a lot of our character development and nutrition and health and everything as one. And then we use an academic partner or a day school nearby to kind of curate a schedule that allows them to achieve what we want them to be able to have access to on the academics side of things but then also be able to do all the other things that we believe are important for their development. Both kind of in Malawi and Uganda.

And so it's yeah and it's and it's far from finish. I think the end goal is to have our own our own facility kind of full time. And so we've been kind of renters and tenants and been kind of wandering through this and so we're a really good point now where we're ready and prepared to do that. And that's kind of where this is headed over the next year to where it's just started your six.

And it feels like we're just starting to get our legs and starting to figure this thing out. And so yeah so exciting times ahead and we're starting to see success over that we have four kids, our full scholarship in the US and Canada. Three boys and one our first female scholar. We have, you know, we've had the past year and a half we've had 16 kids represent their national teams under 15 under 17 under 20 levels.

And so, and that's our first cohort is really our 2003 is which would be under 17 so it's just starting to come together. So it's exciting what's possible and what's the company. Yeah, it's a, you know, having been out there and seen it's an incredible project and there's, you know, lots of interest and stuff going on like sort of talent is certainly there and the first football is certainly there. I can remember watching football games and you know people surely find electricity and even the food perhaps they want to eat but the Premier League is on the background and they're making sure they're watching that game right like people are super hungry for football.

And then the so yeah people could go and dig on the website and get in touch with you to find more about that program. I think part of the reason we wanted to speak today was when I saw the Academy in action and it's something you're really passionate about something you've been developing since. Is the idea of kind of character development. So, you know, there's tons of different ways we could take this conversation in terms of the talent ID and the challenge facilities and the pathways but the character development really stood out for me like it was something I hadn't seen before in Academy for here in the UK and I know some other clubs are doing something similar but you want to kind of touch on what character development means for you or why you think it's important.

Yeah, I guess first but for what it is I guess off the top I'd say I think we need to have some level of acceptance right started to have a level of acceptance that it's messy and it's gray and that there's no right answers for it I think. And I think when people here care for development I think one of the biggest problems I have today or what I've learned because we've done it as well I think we hear things and we think things like it's it's about work ethic and attitude. And we see and we can immediately see those things as coaches or as mentors and so that becomes nice and tidy and clean for us. And we've kind of gone out of a journey like I was really lucky from the start kind of just into our first year at a chance to spend some time at Right to Dream Donna.

And they were there you know they've been at the forefront of this and they've been leaders around this kind of three pillars of how you can develop Academy and develop a really great person and so they focused on football academics and character and and they had a platform that we had a chance to kind of be able to utilize and and be able to work with and focus on things like passion and initiative and self discipline and social intelligence and kind of that's where we started. And that was our kind of chance to kind of figure it out and push through it and I think as a stage two then I started to change it and over the next couple of years. I've tried really hard to get beyond this idea of dualistic thinking and trying to help the kids be problem solvers, not just in football in their own lives and I think that's a bit of a catchphrase or something that's hot and we know the conversations on Twitter and everything else about opposing and opposing the game and how the games played and the speed of the game today and I think it's true around who we're developing as people and what we're trying to do and so I took what they did and then I took it to a different place and then I kind of did this two season two B's was the latest version of it where we talked about consistency, care, and then body language and voice and then started to build units and curriculum around those four things and consistency being you know what is it what am I habits and kind of what am I doing every day, kind of care around the details and how I'm doing things and I might wear those things body language and voices and obvious one about kind of how I train myself and how I use my voice and then for bravery and this kind of is a good kind of jumping off for kind of where I am today. I think bravery for me now has become not so much about being comfortable failing and a part of it but more about this whole idea of not focusing everything on be cool and this we're in this very demonic way.

It's an illustrative environment where everything has got to go on Instagram and TikTok and Twitter and so especially young people behave in that way and can you be brave for the things that you want regardless of what it looks like because it is messy it's sturdy and it's hard and so so that's where it's kind of changed for me and so right now when people ask me what you know what is it. I now kind of go I now talk about it's about this and even when I say it out loud it feels a bit ridiculous to me on the journey I've been but now I talk if you're asked what's character development I think it's peace joy and conscious action. So that's where I've landed today because I see kids and you kind of really you spend a lot of time with them and the ones that really really want it there's this level of anxiety and this level of fear that doesn't allow them to have any measure of peace or any amount of joy and what they're doing. And I feel like that's a real problem and the second thing I think is we have habits that we want because to have we want to have the consistency that I talked about but I'm not sure they're always conscious about why they're doing it and I think I want to put awareness and acceptance around the things that I can control and I think you could have really great habits and you know I talk about like I'm a big fan of atomic habits by James Clear and we talk about that but like I think it's important to have a lot of things that are automatic.

But I think you need to always know why you're doing those things and have an understanding of why whether they're good bad or different to them and so that's kind of how it's shifted and changing for me and it's funny like we're having this conversation right now like I'm looking at it again and trying to re imagine it. Because I just want kind of what we do kind of first we nurture kids and people and then the pitch a second and so you know it's how well we're doing that and so are they at pieces what they're doing do they have joy and how they're doing it and they're aware about why they're doing it. Because it can't it can't come for me you know it can't come from you and can't come from coaches we can give them the jewels but they're the ones that need to be leading their own journey. I was a good answer I was frantically like scribbling stuff down because I was conscious not to interrupt you but there's like a million questions I could ask it.

So I think like from a selfish point of view where I talk about my coaching experience there's a lot of like schemes or nice power points or nice PDFs or words on a wall and clubs feel like or systems feel like that's our character development that looks like we've got this thing where the kids have to do this and if you don't do it then there's a forfeit or a punishment or the living on site. And so like seeing that in that's very common in like the UK to have systems like that it's probably inspired by like the kind of American football college kind of vibe. But I don't feel like we as as UK coaches or in the academy scene we kind of even scratched the surface of that stuff. And then when you talk about when we're talking about high performance we're talking about developing developing players where most people are in agreement that this is the difference between being a good plan and being a great player so that commitment that consistency that turning up all the time it likes to take and risks being brave all that like stuff that's hard to measure really hard to develop really hard to ID and it's kind of a dark space to step into like it's a lot easier to measure how fast someone runs or how many kps they do than it is to kind of engage in this stuff so that really resonated me so I would challenge like or want to understand how do you how do you go about doing this because it's not just your sat on your laptop you make a PDF character that I'm just ticked off we've done it.

It's something you've got to live and breathe every single day right and that was one ball I thought and the second one is all those words you talked about are super difficult for kids like being being aware not being worried about what other people think doing things because I want to do them or doing them because they're cool or doing them because the coaches told me there's lots of like yeah it's very basic like you said and so yeah if you have any kind of insight or opinion on either of those pieces so kind of how do we go about not measuring but how do we go about knowing if we're doing a good job of character development and then how would you go about doing that with kids like as we're recording today there's you know a global pandemic and the leader of the free world is going on number one on Facebook and you're like is that the most important thing right now but like that is the kind of where we live in isn't it like that kind of self and the social media and stuff is that and with teenagers that is a real mind field so yeah kind of two I think you have two questions there I'm not even sure the questions they're just kind of my initial thoughts but how would how do clubs or how do you go about tackling this or measuring this or knowing if you're doing a good job of character development. Yeah I think a couple of things I think one you said like it becomes just a thing that you do it's not again I haven't seen every environment and doing every environment I'm sure there are some books in some places that are doing a good job but I think it's this thing off to the side right it's like what we everyone's talking about this so then we should do it. Is there is it really is it really about who you are like it as a club or as an academy or as a program is this really are you actually all in on this because if you're doing it just off to the side then don't do it because if anything you're probably doing it the service to it because you're again if you're giving for fits for it or whatever you might be doing it. There's a punishment because you can't well is that really part of the end would you do that would you do the same thing in regards to how you reward punish whatever you might do in your environment on the football pitch that you would in regards to this if you wouldn't then you need to stop doing it would be one I think.

And that obviously just thinking it loud I think like I think I'm about I believe more than anything you talked about like I think if you I think your internal tools and everybody talks about this is the funny thing I think everybody said you know your internal tools determine your level of excellence and that's usually like because the margin of the highest level are so small. That it's all about who you are internally in regards to all the things that we've been talking about in my you know my level of acceptance and my ability to control my consistency in my detail all those things are all about me. Yet we spent so little time on it and so it is about one thing is just about shifting it and making it a part of the program and it's also just around. Even if you're the player whatever program whether you're at the elite elite program you're at a grassroots level.

Our real job is to help kids fulfill their potential and so how do you have so then it kind of goes to the second point around kids like I feel like and we don't have this figured out yet either I think it's something we're building and continue to try different things. But so there's two big things that we've done is one week we have a weekly character development program it's had a bunch of different names it's been called excellence intelligence it's been called accelerated wisdom you know take your picker on what you call it. Because I keep changing my mind but it's we introduce a topic you know we spend a period of time on something that we believe is really important like we're thinking about it right now and kind of grab myself like. You know some of the high level things for me today are kind of very very we talked about earned wisdom we can get into this idea of transforming the moment.

About my why we talk about acceptance cosmic perspective with a bigger one gratitude so all these pieces and then we would put together a unit where we spend a month or a couple of months on that and so for kids it is around how you. How do you bring that to life with an activity whether it's an individual activity where it's a group activity how do you get in front of the group and try to talk about those things how do you make it fun and interesting. We're still trying to figure that out it's amazing like I've been you know kind of reading like crazy over the past six months or so around a bunch of pieces that I want to utilize and adapt from all purposes and I think that's the one thing that's also the material out there. But very little of it is geared towards kids and so to your point I think this is the gap we're trying to fill like you look at Dan Abrahams as an example like everything that he talks about.

Sports our college is just a lot of time of the public everything around self awareness and self-relection the pieces like I think he's one that's. Kind of started to bridge the gap and is really talking to young players and trying to put it in a package that makes sense but there are a lot of there who are doing that and so. Trying to do that and bring it to life let's say that's one thing that I'm doing the second bit is. You know we're in this moment where now everything is gone online where you know we're zoom calling from more than we would care to ever do again.

But who knows maybe this is the brave new world but so we have technology and as much you know I can go back to and we can talk about all the things I like dislike about it but the beauty of it is the kids do pay attention and so both for our kids. Our global scholars especially and then my kids at St Andrews College as well where we I send them a daily message type themes on a weekly basis and doesn't necessarily need to be something they need to respond to. But it's I send them every morning and the funny go mock me and I go because I have this little message that says for your Thursday and then I have a little message and it's me there a quote quote and then a comment on it. And it's just a reminder every day around kind of the things that you can be or should be thinking about it.

Do they all read it? Do they all pay attention to it? Probably not. But it doesn't matter and it's just about it kind of models consistency and it also just puts something different in front of them as they're scrolling and one of the talk and everything else.

And so it's trying to and I think the reason I really like that and you know its impact is remains to be seen. It catches them in an environment that's not football and so I think that's I think really really important. So if we want to connect and make an impact on their lives I feel like if we're only doing it on the football pitch then it's really really really difficult for you. And then in the third piece is then take the character stuff, the character pieces into the pitch.

If those are the only instances they see you or then you have a one-on-one conversation with them you know every couple of weeks. So you have all these different touch points like then it's easier to then bring all those pieces together on the pitch because there's just a different level of connection around the values where they play out where they don't play out. So I think that would that and maybe just the last thing to say is that the challenges that the kids have on the pitch often have nothing to do with football. And I think we're discovering all those things now.

And so all the tools we're giving them, this is the false part of it for me as well as that we're trying to give them all these tools. Like all the things I talked about were like how does that make them better football? That's how our but if all they're bringing all this baggage from school, from home, from wherever they have girlfriend, all this stuff is real in their world and it's important to them. The tools we're giving them is to help them manage all that stuff so that when they arrive on the football pitch they can worry and focus on football.

And so it's doing both and I think that's the thing. It's tools for life that yeah I could apply on the pitch but it's also helping to manage the rest of the lives so that the stuff that they have fun with and bring them to joy, they can actually have fun with it and have joy in those moments. And tools for life is quite like a nice strap line isn't it? I think that's easier to understand than character development.

For sure. As a terrible character development I just like it but it's a good jumping off point. Like it makes sense to people but at the same time it has all this baggage right? Yeah and like whenever you title something people attach stuff to it isn't always useful and then this thing that started off to be like A and something like Z and it's completely different.

Again every time you talk I've got like 50 questions. One of the things I think would be interesting to explore is like what are the similarities and differences of doing this in East Africa where people are amongst the most kind of underprivileged and maybe even the basic simple life versus people that are on an elite college program that might come from really nice. Not one of them but some of them would come from really nice backgrounds and maybe more comfortable. So completely different people like people that may never you know may never have similar similarities.

Are you seeing things in those two different environments that are same and are you seeing things that are different and what are those differences? Yeah so I would say at a very high level the differences are very very small and I think the things that the kids need if they want to become elite footballers or they want to become impact and amazing students. The tools they don't differ very very much I think they're very similar. I think what we're learning about what we can do in each environment I would say is more of a scaffolding issue around to your point.

Like what are the tools that the kids bring into it like you know in in your God as an example you know and even allow you more so you know there's a huge language problem in English. So here you are taking some really really special driven amazing kids who have grown up in these rural community schools where they're supposed to be taught in English quote unquote and then they arrive on your doorstep and you know they can kind of understand you can't read and write and that's in these you know 12 years old you know where to begin and now. Oh yeah Adrian's going to do some character development sessions with me go up with that and so you have to so I think it's more about how do you scaffold that and change it a little bit and you have to the activities and the things that you do would be different and maybe you just from the foundational standpoint it needs to change a little bit when I talked earlier about. You know what we learned it right to dream and then the first kind of iteration of the things that we were doing I think maybe you would need to back up a step.

I think what the guys that guys and gals right right to dream did well too as they had this was built over a handful of years they've been at this 15 years and so they would have a core program and then a layer two three and four and so and then so based on where you are on that journey they can kind of plug in understand you need a foundation. So I think it's more the foundation I think I think that there's the challenges are obviously different I think that there is you know there is a. It's funny the you would think and if I were to say this if you haven't spent a lot of time in South San Africa coach football that the kids would be completely different in regards to this idea of that how they've arrived and their ego and all those things. We've come to learn that both things are not that different in that kids here would be you know in a elite academy in a prem column or whatever dripping in kit they got their own iPad to plug in their numbers and they can watch their game tape and their highlights are there an hour later online.

So they feel like they've already made it 13 years old and that could be the farthest thing for the truth and so you have those challenges like this that they're being coddled and they've been given too much this whole. You know how do you know develop under a paradise model at the same time that's not much different for us because where our kids come from is very very different. But then the things that they get or their sense of belonging about who they are now is it's a similar trajectory and all of a sudden now they were saying this rural community with a family that was living off a dollar a day. The substance farmers you know they have one year a day they barely pay school fees if they go to school at all and now they've been selected to a sense ocker and they have all their gear provided.

Their school fees are paid. They get three meals a day. They have this whole local nutrition. They're traveling in buses to matches and everything is transformed.

So it's similar challenges. So it's not it's not that different I don't think and so it's just a matter of foundationally I would say that maybe the last thing and big thing is the tools around problem solving and the level of challenges that you could get on a general standpoint are a bit different. And simply because our kids from East Africa come from a very rote academic system where it's repeat after me and right off the board and it's very test focused and so all that's all very empirical. And so that doesn't lend itself very well problem solving.

They're not in environments where they're conditioned or allowed to challenge authority or ask questions because that's deemed disrespectful. And all of our character development program gets some of our kids in trouble at school because they ask questions and teachers don't like that. So so we deal with some of that stuff. But yeah, so I think that our kids at home have some of those tools already and are asked to do those things and their classroom environment is very, very different.

And so that's a distinct advantage and one that we know we need to provide kind of more tools for and more challenges for our kids because I think those are all incredible footballing tools as well. And we think it's also part of why our kids, you know, why the game is so direct in Africa and how the game's been played and it's very black and white and in a box. And so, you know, not to bother you changing like a broad statement, but it's something I think it is has to do with the academic system, right? So wrongs and hierarchy of power and so it's helping change that a little bit because kids have the ability and intelligence and the tools and all those things that just never present.

That's interesting, right? You've got people who might live in the leafy suburbs and drive SUVs and even five bedroom houses have got the same problems as people. The problem, same challenges or distractions or deadly sins. There's the same people that are living in in huts or don't have electricity or whatever.

Those village backgrounds are completely stuck. So that's the next interest of people listening because you might be working high performance up or participation or somewhere in between. You think that your world is completely different when in reality people are still people. It's just they might, you know, those problems might have different faces.

Like they're still going to be there. You've mentioned a couple of times around like problem solving and presumably we're talking about problem solving on the pitch in a tactical sense. I can't speak in a tactical sense, but also off the pitch in kind of managing your life and having those choices. So you're being consistent.

How again, that sounds like all these things you're saying, I think any coach or anybody who works in any sport would say yes, please. Like, or resilience more consistency dealing with adversity. Yes, please. How would you go about kind of developing problem solvers or encouraging kids to think for themselves?

Because that is probably one of the main differences I saw in the education system in Uganda versus kind of here in the UK. The kids were fearful to answer a question or, you know, would be fearful to have an opinion. And it was seen as like, like said, disrespectful or not really their place is it's answer a question. So I came in as like coaching with us a Q&A and they were like, just stood there and let me ask questions.

So how would you go about kind of getting kids to think about problem solving? And maybe the challenges, I think there probably is some difference between North America and East Africa. So what would that look like through kind of on the pitch of the pitch conversations formal informal? Give us a flavor there.

Yeah. So the one thing I think that would be a little blanket that would apply to all and kind of where we've gone. And then we've been residential and so we can do a lot more of these things. But the big thing has been getting rid of rules and guiding our squad through a process of developing standards that they hold up.

That staff don't control and it's their job to hold those things up. So all the things you talk about around voice and getting them to hold each other accountable and all that. We need to let them choose what those things are and maybe let those things be imperfect to then start to build a culture of of accountability and process and voice and ownership of those things. And that's really tough for adults, right?

Like adults and coaches that like things being where they should be and this is how you're going to do it. The timekeeping and the data you have to let it go wrong and then go. You guys said this was important to you. You said this was standard.

Is that sure? Yeah, absolutely. And then you have and we've had different challenges like in both all the environments. I know how it called a lot but too, like in East Africa, I don't have parents on the touchlines.

And even at St. Andrew's College, the law of our kids are boarded or internationals. I have kids from Mexico and Germany and all of the places. And so parents aren't at training, right?

They're making sure that a match once in a while. So you don't have people looking kind of over your shoulder all the time. So it's easier to be messy and get wrong and let it look bad because you're always wondering, really watching me and if you're in a paid-of-flight environment, you need to put on an air and demonstrate that you know what you're doing and you have to be strong. And those environments, you know, we could have a whole couple hours on people's way.

But you know, we live in Canada and the US and so just how do you get better at it. So I'd say that's one and you're right. It's the whole kind of joystick coaching everybody talks about, right? And that's the same for the character bits.

In regards to differences, one of the things I've noticed in the, like this was my first year leading a program at St. Andrew's and the big thing was a recurring theme was this element of fairness. My kids in, I could make things unfair and you could adapt small-sided games or activities because you want to put them in challenging situations in high stress where it's definitely unfair and see if they can figure it out. And that's all part of that process, right?

I can do that and you go under them, I'll be able to just get on with it and I figure it out and they try to figure it out and it creates some incredible outcomes. If you do that here, kids get really mad at you and angry and tell you it's not fair. And because maybe sometimes you'll do it and not tell them, right? You'll just do it.

Like you'll be, you know, you could be, you know, this is something that I know you've done well is you know, you'll maybe officiate the game really poorly for one team, right? Intentionally. And so they'll get, they can't, and so those are all really interesting and good challenges. The kids here, there's this element of fairness and this and element of I'm entitled to what's right as opposed to to be present and being in the moment.

And so I think we could do a lot more of that and put them in really, really so that they get after each other a little bit and see if they figure it out or not. And then we talk about it and, you know, if you're doing a, you know, go back to the pitch, if you have a 20 minute block and you have four blocks of five, and then you have moments in between to have a conversation with them and help them through some of those things, those are opportunities to ask questions and be encouraging, right? And at the end of the day, especially on the football pitch, like, there's just too much yelling and screaming period. And so one, it heightens anxiety, which we know is already there and is a huge problem.

And two, it doesn't happen to become problem solvers. It doesn't help them increase standards. It doesn't feel like they need to be the ones to take care of it because they know someone's going to start screaming from the sidelines at the pitch anyway, so I can just shut up and get on with it. And so, you know, we're on, you know, we're standing these and all that.

And it's not to say that we don't caught up in. And there are moments where they're, you're going to jump in because you want to be able to help them fix something. And so it's not if you're not 100% sit there and shut up and you're a atrocious coach, like that's not it either. I think, you know, none of it needs to be black and white, but you just need to continue to get better at it in moments, especially in high stress moments to let them do that.

And I would say then back to the character stuff. Similarly, in the classroom, if you have the opportunity to do that, like, we're really big at doing group or individual activities and putting them in front of the group to present or have a conversation or ask a question and make them lead. I don't think we do enough of that here at all. I think we're afraid to do it or cautious to do it.

It takes a lot of time. You got to do a lot of prep and build a program or a session well and it's got to be well thought out. It could be really, it could come off really badly. And so it takes a lot of work to do that right and do it well.

And no one, we're not very good at sitting there in silence and letting, you know, the kids stand up there for 20 seconds and not know what they're doing. That's okay. That's a really, really good moments because the big thing for us is like, this has been comorantra, two things. But one is like, you know, this level of stress or this level of anxiety or I can't do this.

This is way too hard. The question we always ask is every time that's happened in the past, did you get through it and did you wake up? The next day, the answer is always yes. It's going to be all right.

Yeah. Yeah. And so so there's that and then it's the whole idea of like everything matters and nothing matters very much. And so helping them appreciate that.

Like you got to do everything in the moment as if it's only thing and everything to you. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Like I, it's all, it's all a little bit ridiculous. Everything that we're doing.

So here we are, like, it's beyond it. Like we're having this character development session and this conversation about all the things that we've learned that we're doing. And it also enders around this little ball that we kick around the glass and put in these two nets. Like it's the stupidest thing ever.

It must be honest. It's ridiculous. Right. So, and it's important that we love it and it's what we do.

But all of it's a bit silly. And so it's okay to, you know, focus on it in a moment and be better at it. And then when it's over, let go. You know, I can sit here and say that and sounds like I'm, you know, I have this calm and vision and expertise around all that.

And we get caught in it and do all the same thing, but it's just can't be reflective. And I think those are things that we need to try to do to the kids. Again, like I've written down three kind of big rocks. I think there's a lot of addition around sport, right?

Like a lot of the way things are done coaches do this, players do that. I've got the ideas. I've got the system. I've got the rules.

So I think challenging that that tradition on the pitch, off the pitch in roles and responsibilities is really tough, whether you work, you know, in a primarily club, whether you work in a grassroots, the parents will think or the players will think or the other coaches will think there is a right way and a wrong way to do things. And I hear that a lot when I talk to people that are ever so slightly on the edge of the, you know, the edge of that thinking when you were talking about the idea of things being fair and not fair, that's something I've experienced a lot this year with a group of teenage players. So we'll be in a classroom or in a conversation or in a review or in a calm, you know, safe setting. The players will say, I want training to be really tough.

I want you to push me. I want you to change my way to be really difficult. And you say, yeah, definitely. And in the moment, when you make it hard, they blow up and it's too much.

It's too difficult. And maybe they haven't got the mental resource or they haven't done it enough, you know, they haven't done enough reps of it to work out. It's supposed to be tough. It's supposed to be difficult.

So I've probably been more explicit this season going to remember you said this. So like when when the training is difficult, like, I'm in a 1v2, I'm going to lose more than I win. I will stop it or even pull and want to say, remember you told me you want to train to be difficult. And someone will be like fighting back tears or they'll be, you know, heads up and like really kind of heated.

And I'll say, you can take a minute out, like it's cool. Remember, this is what you said you want. And then in my environment, I would talk about it needs to look like this. I can't make it too easy if you want to be good at football.

We can make it really easy and page on the back. But if you want to be good, I'm going to have to have to spend some time in that pressure, hot environment. And I don't know if this will carry across the across the ocean, but we've been using like the analogy of the Nando's pepper. So like you can have a lemon and herb session or you can have a triple X hot session.

And we might move up and down like head tennis would be lemon and herb. But if you want to play in the Premier League, it's going to be hot and difficult and full adversity and all those things. So training needs to be like that. And when it's there, how do you deal with those emotions?

And then that shift from doing it in a classroom and having, yeah, this is what I want to look like. And I'm going to show this and I'm going to show a good body language. And then in the moment, like we do a lot of character development or psychology or mental skills, whatever people want to talk it in the classroom, like in a safe place with no football, no motion, no results. And then on the grass, we ditch some of those values.

We ditch some of that learning and we go, I don't know why that kid can't manage his emotions. And you're like, well, this is what we need to work on like right here, right now. So yeah, those are some things that jumped out of me when you were speaking the tradition in the moment at the moment. Being explicit, but the last one was kind of the idea of co-adaptation.

So, you know, if I play against the best defender in the world, I'll become better at attacking. And if you play, you know, I become better at attacking, you become better at defending. I've been explicit with that with kids this year as well. And that's helped develop some stuff.

So if I put you up against a good player and you make your session really difficult, you don't score a lot of goals, for example, well, you've got better, like you're going to get better other weeks rather than having an easy session. You look good and we can all kind of page on the back and say, I'm going to be brilliant. And then on game days, really tough. So yeah, so there's some kind of like more on the grass stuff, but things that I've that kind of link into character development or how I would see kind of developing character.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I think it's, and then how do you bring those things over onto the onto the pitch as well? Can you kind of thematically, whatever the language is?

So if it is, you know, if it is gratitude and encouragement as an example, and say that's where you're spending time this month, we're going to spend time on that in the classroom. How is that how is that language? How is that activity? How is that built into what you do on the pitch?

So how do you, you know, for example, if you had two coaches on the pitch and one is leading the session and was focused on the activity. And adapt adaptation to the activity and, you know, making sure that they're aware of a big picture of what's happening. Could then the assistant be responsible for three kids on that session and those three kids, he gets in there, he starts the session and says, remember, we're working on this week. We're working on, you know, and we get them to feedback.

What are we working on? What's important? What are we trying to think about? Can you find two moments in the session today to do those things?

So whether it's a encouragement as an example, and then could you remind them when they grab water? And so it's not a heavy lift. We're not telling them to do that. But we're just, so then how do you give them behavior to do that?

And when they do it and they don't, you know, their head doesn't explode because they get it. Or somebody does something better because of it or they get a return ball that they maybe didn't get before because now their teammate feels a little bit better about them. Now that's going to change behavior overnight. No, but like as that builds and builds and builds and so how do you do that?

And just you have to be creative and be smart about that and be intentional about it. Right. So that's got to be, you know, we all build our sessions and whether it's a week in advance or you have your full plan for the year and then you're building kind of individual out. Like, is that if again, if characters part of your week, how is that reflected in every time you touch the pitch in some way?

How do you do that? What does that look like? It's possible. It just takes a little bit extra work and then, you know, do all your staff have those tools.

I think that's the other thing is like, I could be the person doing character development and that's vitally important to me and I talk about it for hours and I love dealing with it with the kids. But if three of the six staff you have, think it's rubbish and it's always the time and they're not bought in and you don't have all the same attention to them. What you do. And so it's also, it's also, all of this stuff is also not just about the kids, right?

It's about your organization and the culture of your place and is it genuinely important, right? Like it's again going back to that. Like, is it is this all about outcomes or is it all about process or is it actually our intention? Is it really about who we are?

And again, goes right. It's very, very, very, it's not. It's not. It's not.

It's just, I don't think it. Don't do it at all because then what you're modeling to the kids is we're going to talk about this once in a while, but we're never going to really hold you accountable for it. And we're never really going to transfer it. We're just going to have this nice little session and it will go away.

So don't really worry about it. That what you're modeling there, what you're telling them, right? That's more dangerous than not doing it at all. So like, let's pull out that thread a bit.

So if we've got coaches or people around the team and players that are not interested in this or, you know, applying for themselves or, you know, I suppose the cliche is bad apple. How do you go with influences people or dealing with those people? Because the extreme would be, you know, you cut them all out and you only have good people. But then there's also like a transformational case, especially with kids, because the stuff that they might have learned from their parents or from their peers or from their siblings.

And you are able to adapt that behavior and you do see some change. So how do you kind of have that line? You know, how do you decide whether people are brought in or they're half brought in and I can convince them a bit more, or do you know what they're never going to change and they'd be better at, yeah, not in our system? Yeah.

There's no magic and no fancy that I have this all figured out. But I think, like, I think the way I did, again, is like with everything that we do and just saying with the kids and like, what's the win-win? So what does like everybody's different around? Why am I actually on the pitch?

Right? What am I doing? You know, what's in it for me? What is success to me?

And how do we figure out? Is there, you know, if it's staff sessions or one-on-one sessions? How do we help figure out what it is personally that coaches really, really trying to get out of it? And when they leave the pitch on a daily or on an annual basis, what it's going to help them feel good about it?

And then how do you integrate or help them give them tools from a character standpoint that is going to help them do that? Whatever that might be. I think you have to be able to demonstrate it. You have to be able to give them tools that are going to allow them to achieve the things that they want to achieve.

Because even though you'll have this big kind of big goal as a group and who you are as an entity, we're all driven by very, very selfish reasons. And so I think it's important for us to understand those things and not pretend that those things don't exist. Because everything we do for you for selfish reasons is full stop. And so it's OK to recognise that and call it out and figure those things out.

You know, that's not going to solve it. But I think it's a good starting point for sure. And then would you ever slightly different level or like approach or leniency with kids compared to staff? Because I'm, because, you know, if you've got a 35-year-old coach or you've got a 13-year-old boy, they should have different life skills.

So the idea of three strikes or the idea of being explicit with why we don't like your behaviour, would you treat a Naddle coach the same way you would treat a 13-year-old? And what would that influence and peace look like, I guess? That's a great question. I think that's coach right.

I don't know. I think two things. One, I think it's both. I think in that first you're not going to treat any individual.

You don't even treat the individual kids the same. So you can't obviously treat them. The coaches the same. I think there has to be some differentiation on how you deliver it, the way you deliver it, how you follow it up and what your system of accountability is.

I think those things need to be different. At the same time, I think we have to be careful about making assumptions around where it is we all come from. I think that's something I think we could all get better at and I think that's something that I've started to realise more over the last couple of years, to be honest. I think everybody has struggles.

There's this fantasy that my struggles are bigger than everyone else's and no one knows what I'm going through. Surprise, surprise, everybody's got their own. We talk a lot about this with the kids. We did a really come back to the last point, but we did a whole session around struggle and about choosing your struggles.

And we had conversations around what were my struggles and what are messy struggles. Because people would say, well, messy does not be struggling. We struggle to see the best part in the world and we've got all this money and great life and some of our things. But what are the things that he might be worried about or would cause him anxiety and what are all those things we talk about, a lot of pressure to perform on an ongoing basis and the anxiety around country versus club and managing all that.

And so the kids would be like, man, that would be pretty hard. I don't even know if I could deal with that. And so I think it's being able to help us all understand that everybody's got something that they're fighting with and dealing with. And so I think going back to the coaches, regardless of whether they're 35 year old and their education and their family background, where they come from, what tools they've had and sport is a funny thing too.

And that we live in silos a lot. And so the people who end up being really, really good at it, and this is not a sport thing. It's a music thing. It's a lot in the arts.

Like we've done these things since we were five years old and it's all we've done and it's all we know and we're really, really great at it, which also means we haven't been exposed to a lot of things outside our sphere. And so our world's really, really small. And so you can make an argument that maybe a lot of staff and coaches who are now old like I am into their 40s and approaching 50s that they probably haven't even been exposed to as much as our 15 year old kids have been. And so you can have the same level of we may see an understanding and kind of help them take them on a journey.

Because also we've got all these habits that are harder to change. And so if anything, you could probably, there might be a case for being more, we need more understanding and more patient. If at least at the very least you have an understanding or appreciation that they are genuinely pulling in the right direction with you, then maybe you could even be a little more patient with them because of levels. So I don't know, I don't know, the top one.

Yeah, it's not a black and white answer is it. Do you think linking back to kind of where you started when you're having these character sessions with kids or formal or informal conversations or talking about big ideas like gratitude? So as an adult, that's still something I would struggle to wrap my head around, like I have an understanding, but you know, I'd need to go on a long walk and have a long think about what that looks like for me. And some of the other words you've used, they're deep and powerful.

Do you think part of the skill is just starting a conversation like with a teenager? Like I don't think I would have been aware of concepts like that until probably my mid to late twenties. So no one would have said, my mum has said, that was quite selfish. I don't know, I wouldn't really thought like why and how and what's the impact of people.

And I don't think many kids think like that unless their parents are really diving in and really challenging them. So do you think that's just part of what this process is? It's just like shining a light on this thing and have you even considered this? Like you don't have to have the answer for it, but can you at least start thinking about it?

Because as you get older, you should get more wiser and more skillful. And you look back on things you'd have done when you were 16, 17 and gone full. That was like the wrong choice and wasn't the right way to treat my parents or whatever. And then see young people and you're like, why are they like that?

You're like, well, you will like that. So do you think that's part of this process? Just kind of, yeah, opening their minds. All these other stuff, you don't have to have the answers, but at least, you know, go and consider it.

Yeah, 100%. I think that's why we've toyed with the framing and accelerated wisdom. Because there are just things that the kids can't or don't know and the things that you and I didn't know and things that we're still figuring out because now we've got like experiences and you know, you can't go in a room and say, well, you're not going to learn these things until you don't have enough experience. Like, you know, that's the last thing kids want to hear.

But there are interesting ways, like you said, to just introduce an idea and help. Is there other small ways that you can put the idea to them and give them a chance to have a win or some success with it, but then gives them reason to then dig deeper, discover a bit more? I think that's all we can do. Like it's, I think the one thing that I started to cut the kids a lot of slack on too, like, like neuroscientists and psychologists now read like that 18 to 25 area is like neither adolescence or adulthood, right?

Like this whole prefrontal cortex conversation around like it develops late. And so like our kids, teenagers and like their selfish, they lack inhibition, you know, they have little attention. And one of it is physiological. And so we have to accept that.

And so it's hard in a moment when a kid lashes out and or they have, but there's also a physical reason why they're like that. And so they have to have more patience. Like, and this is where we could have a whole talking about identification and player development and the current academy system around the globe. Like there's so many ways we're getting it wrong because we treat 18 year old as adult professionals and 75% of them are 100% not ready for that.

They're just not ready. And so they get cast off. They're not good enough. They don't have these tools or whatever.

There you go. And they're kick out the door and start some clubs and organizations are starting to figure that out. And I think we really, really need to start treating that kind of 18 to 23 kind of window as that last stage of youth development. So it's an academy stage in many ways.

And but the demands and the money and performance and physical development, all those things, like the level of impatience around all that is just unfair to the kids. And then you see all these backdoor professionals and guys that come in late. But you know, and those are great stories and everybody will talk about the party and how we, you know, plug the way it made his way back. And there's not enough of those stories because I think that there are thousands and thousands of more out there that just got cast off and they gave up and that was over for them.

Where they get tagged a certain way and people stopped investing in them way too soon. And so, so everyone, I think it's just continuing to invest in them at each level. And I think it's helping them have wins and success. I think it's not berating them or continuing like it is.

It goes back to just being encouraging and again, helping them have peace with the moment. I think that's the big like there's there's a lot of and I've dealt with it all year. Like thinking here, you know, there's just like there's just, you know, I have a handful of kids that when everything something when something goes wrong, they'll kick at something or they're screaming out or they're waving arms or they do those things. And I know that 80% of the reason or time they're doing that is not because it's a instinctive physical embellishment of a moment is because they want to show you that they're upset and that they know they've done wrong.

And it's because they're afraid. And so then how do you how do you get them beyond that where it doesn't matter? Like, and so I think all the things that we're talking about, that's for me the biggest win is like again, that level of peace and that level of acceptance. And and that it doesn't really matter for that second.

And now on to the next thing that matters. OK, so it doesn't matter. I talk to my own kids and so my oldest is now playing in an incident way. And, you know, I don't think you'd be too bothered if I said like he had, you know, he could be demonstrative and excitable.

And and we talked a lot about playing the game 10 seconds at a time and and do it and and just get those all the moments and that's still a really long period in a football match when you think about it and you're performing. And so and how do you do that? And it gets not perfect and that's all going to be difficult. And so it is going all the way back like it is that giving them tiny little bits where they can have success.

And again, the reason I illustrate that is then how do you make it small, right? So that they can win. That it's not this big thing like, oh, again, like I like to talk. My kids are tired of talking about cosmic perspective and the universe.

And there's like, you know, we live in Uganda and I can see all the stars and I talk about it all the time and our place in the universe and everything else. Because it's not necessarily one here in that way. But so other ways to introduce ideas in small chunks where you have little aha's and you can get to be like, really, you know, and then the little moments. And then they ask a question and then you're winning, right?

Then you're getting somewhere, right? You can get them to ask a question about that. And that's hard to sometimes, you know, even we do it. And I'd say maybe a third of the time you get it right, and two thirds of the time you get it wrong, you get it all over it there.

And you have to go into the next. And that's OK. And in a football sense, like if you are, you know, if you're wasting one of those 10 second bursts thinking about the one before, who knows what can happen? Like if you're in a moment and you think you'll be wasting your energy, thinking about how I missed that pass or I should have done that, you're going to miss the present thing right now.

And that is much more important. I'd be much more worried if you weren't thinking about what you're going to do now than, you know, wasting your time showing me that you're angry about misinformation and opportunity. And I think the other piece for coaches is like just acknowledging that you know. So somebody gets frustrated because they miss a pass or the referee let them down or whatever.

Just, yeah, we've got to like get me to do all of that. Like it's cool. Just the next thing. Well, it's great when you talk about that.

So then I was going over to Tom and the camera again, and this James Clear book, and he talked about pointing point at it and say it around habits. And it's the same thing. It's just, it gives us great example of like you have to treat everything as your third party and your just an observer so that you don't have any judgment to your point. Like, and that's exactly it.

It's not having any judgment on it. So he's stuck in the book. He said something to the fact, we get wrong, but paraphrasing around somebody trying to lose weight and trying to manage what they eat. And they grab a chocolate bar for a breakfast.

And so instead of saying, oh, I'm the worst, what's wrong with me? What am I doing? Is to step back and go, well, pretend that somebody else and you look at them and go, well, that's interesting. He's even got chocolate bar for breakfast.

Right? And so, and so by calling it out and pointing at it, now I'm going to think about it in a new way. So then he talks about this is great. But I'm going to do a lot more of this with the kids.

It's just around every time you do something, can you point out and say it? So if I'm again, say wait, and the example he gives in the book, it's just talk about if I'm going to eat a cookie, then I need to say it loud. I'm going to eat a cookie. And I know that this is bad for me.

Right? Is this something that I should do right now? Now, if you decide to go and do it, that's OK, but at least you now have your conscious of it. Again, going back to the very start around, you know, making conscious choices.

If you get the kids to, if you say screw it, I'm going to have it because I really want it right now. I'll go for it. But at least now you're aware, right? Like what an amazing, you know, next step for our kids.

If we could get them there, like, that's awesome stuff. And then in terms of like being a coach where you're leading a group of maybe staff and young people, I think, again, like this, this tradition or this, yeah, belief that you should be the shouting scream in Joe Sajan, whereas using the cookie analogy, it's like you can have as many cookies as you want. If you think it's going to help you, you think that's going to make you better play, you go for it and like exposing them to that choice or making them aware of that choice, then job done. Like if you don't want to practice or you don't want to turn up on time, cool.

Like it's cool. Yeah. One of the two things. Yeah.

Yeah. It's like, like, does it make you better? Well, the two things for us. So over over in my own children, I decided to be saying this, but like one, there's always a choice.

So I've got this really big exam tomorrow and I don't have time and I'm not going to study. I go, then don't study. But then I'll fail. I'm like, exactly.

Right. So like, what are you going to do? Yeah. You do.

And then the other one is like, same thing is like, well, I always use and then what? So every time you do something and then what, you know, it would be a lot of it around social media, like, well, I really want to get up to like 2,000 followers. Okay. And then what?

I mean, and so it was what we get. Yeah. Yeah. So what are you doing with that?

What is it important? Well, status and you say that loud. You're like, well, that's stupid. Right.

And so having the conversation, right? So yeah. Yeah. And we'd be shy on our age and if we were going into the depths of TikTok and Snapchat and I remember going on tour with a bunch of kids and they explained to me, Snapchat, and I was like, but why?

But why? Like, so they do a thing where they take a screen of a shot of a blank screen, like scribble on it and send it to each other. And I'm like, but it's like a corner of your head, like one corner. Then I get a lot of shots apparently.

If I walk by and then I go and then I've got a seven day street or a 10 day street. We're like, yeah. Like, that's a perfect end. Then I can't break my street.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But you can. It would be fine by the way. Yeah. I'm conscious of your time and there's loads of like good stuff, I think, in there for people to kind of go away and to think about what they're doing in their program.

I have got the question cube. So we're going to do five random questions. I'm sure we'll spark some more. Some more shots.

I'll try to keep it tight. Like I'm talking a lot. This is out. This feels out of character.

That's the idea of focus. OK. All right. Sure.

Right. Question number one. What are the things you look at when working for a player for the first time? We're supposed to be in a player for the first time.

So I think the biggest one for us would be what are they doing when they are not near or around the football would be one for sure. It's kind of how do they behave? Are they intentional about what they're doing? Just are they actually thinking the game or is it or is it only when, you know, when you're out with your dog and throwing a ball out and they chase it?

Like so what are they doing without it would be one? And I'd say the other thing that we've now started to look out a lot more is speed strength and acceleration, which sounds very strange coming out of mind now. Because we've just talked a lot about thinking the game and the game being cerebral and wanting kids to be, you know, two footed and all those things, which are all important. But I think we're starting to have a realization, especially with our first group of kids that the game at the highest level is played at is played out of speed and at an intensity and at a physical level.

That's transforming and changing. And those is myth that the little players or the small, smart players in the game are not athletic. They are. And so it's not to say that that's the barrier, but I think for us, it's we're putting more stock in in those things around what we think the kids could become physically and how do they manage and you know, you have to, it's really hard to get that right and you have to be careful and hey, have we taken undersized really thin, scrolling eyes because we see them as special ball of course.

But I think we're just starting to notice that a little bit more and are starting to be a little more thoughtful at it because I feel like looking back now, I think we've gotten that wrong a little bit. I think we lead too far towards cerebral thinking, kind of two footed brain, all footballers and have ignored the, you know, the real strong kind of banging, athletic kids who have maybe do one thing special, but have these all these other tools and tied to desire. So those would be the two. And I guess maybe the third one would be what happens when they lose football would be number three.

So how do they respond? Are they a shoulder kind of dropper and a giver upper? And do they let other people do that? Like, what is it?

What do they do the first five seconds after the football is lost? Just learn a lot. I think we've, we still get it wrong and still are convinced that sometimes we can change kids, but we try to do that less and less. And then those environments, if, if they're too, they are, we're, unless they are, the top, you know, other than 99th percentile is talent and they do those things.

Maybe we can try them in our environment. But if not, we'll say no. We just, we just under the belief now that we're not going to change and fix those things. That needs to be internally, you need to really want to have a little, a little little savagery and the animal intensity part of it.

I think that needs to be there along with all the other great tools. And we could have a whole two hours on potential performance and needs once and then let's stuff up. I won't pull you away on that conversation. Great question.

Number two, how do you know if you've delivered a good session? What may be the benchmarks or the measurements you use to think that one? Well, so two things would be there. There's a lot of winching and groaning because it's over.

So you get into a moment where the intensity is so high and maybe, you know, you play, you know, we finished most times with a small set of game or something with a competition and some kind of a forfeit or a, some wager on it. And so when everybody's exhausted by it or it's their frustrating or angry, that it's not going to continue. That's a good signal in sign. No one's waiting and looking at their phone to hope it's over.

It's a good thing. And then I think, I think voice would be the other one. So how loud is our session? I can say things like joy and those are hard because there are intense moments where you're not always going to see that.

Those are more as you go through it, but I would be how loud is it? And something I want us to get a lot better at. I still don't think we're there. I don't think we have to quite figure that out in our environment, especially in East Africa.

I think it's still really too quiet. And so those would be the two things. Yeah, maybe like engagement, right? So it's not just the coach talking or it's not just the emotions.

It's player engagement coach. We've done this new thing too. Like in the warm up, some early activities and just moving the ball. So now they have to scream to call for it.

And so just to get them in the act. And so then they start laughing and smiling at Solarius. And so then I told them, so I'll say, we're going to do this because as soon as we start doing it, we have a little huddle and then we go up to our warm up. We start to do it.

And it's a bit of handball and others, right? And some things I know you do as well. And so like the I'll tell them, I want, I want them to stop and watch you for 10 seconds. Right.

And so they'll go, yeah, yeah, right? Because of like the community. And so then they'll screen their heads off, instagratus thing ever. And so just little things like that are a lot of fun.

And they'd like to see how many of the kids they can get to turn. So like we can count how many walks. And so which is a nice little moment. So I'm going games.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's fun. OK, question number three.

What is the best course or event you've attended? Doesn't have to be sport, doesn't have to be football, but any kind of something you've done where you thought, wow, that was good or I never knew anything about that or it must go way and way more. That's a good one. I don't, I have not.

I would say the biggest thing regret is I don't do a lot of courses in a lot of events. There isn't many events in the GULIP and then kind of. No, not a lot of these separate. I would say maybe taking kind of from my reading or what I'm learning the most about or what I feel like I'm most interested in is less to do with the intensity and the excellence bits of it and more of the kind of meditative peaceful bits of it.

Like more really turned on by things you can only see when you slow down by Heyman, he's a monk and he's taught in the US. And so I would say that has kind of been things that have kind of been interested in and kind of how we weave that into what we do and I'm interested in learning more about that. Again, that's around kind of how do you slow the heartbeat and be calm and be reflective and be have self-forgiveness, which I think are kids are not very good at either. I think they're really, really hard on themselves.

So I think there's lots to learn there and I think that's something that is completely outside of football that kind of all of our coaches and all of our kids could need or do need. Definitely agree that young people would find some of those concepts here very early and very difficult. Question number four is four, right? What are the characteristics of an effective coach?

Huge question. Big question. I think at the top of it for me, it would just be a they just have you have to care about the kids and not care about the kids as footballers you have to care about them as people. And I think even in the environments that we've had and hired and had different coaches, I don't think we've had I've had the same.

It's funny we were just talking about this the other day and talking about it with my wife. I think there's been different coaches with different styles, some more more connectors and some that are more demanding and less nurturing. But I think thinking back, we've been really lucky of who we've had in that in every instance that they genuinely what happens in the journey of where the kids go and what's what's possible for the next. They all really, really care about those things.

And so I think and then like when you're bringing staff in or you're doing that, like how do you figure that out and how do you get that right? I don't know. And I think there's a lot of you know, a lot of people in the game are in coaching art. That's why they're in it.

I think it's finding those folks. I think it's a difficult one to coach and teach and take one on a journey that you do. You don't. And so it's kind of how you take the ego out of it and how is it is it genuinely about the kids.

And that's delivered in such a variety of manners. I think that's the one thing that we've learned. I think that would be one. I think the other thing would be putting everything that I've, you know, not putting everything outside, but like lining up with it like is they have, they're ruthless around demands.

And I think that's really, really important. I think our kids don't know where the edge is the cliff. And I think it's our job to kind of take them out there and let them have a look. And I don't, they'll never push beyond that point.

We'll get to a breaking point, whether it's physical one or a cerebral one or somewhere, a challenge one and you talk about putting kids up against top of a moment. And I don't think we put them in enough difficult situations and push them beyond what they're capable of so the kids have their own aha moments. So I feel like it's really, I think the coaches job is to kind of take them out there and let them have a look. And I think if the kids find out right faster, if this is for me or not, is this really for me?

Because that's, if you can do that, you have, that's probably the only chance you haven't make it. And Lincoln into a big kind of conversation. That's when you're going to see character, right? Like it's easy to have a good character.