Hello and welcome to On the Grass, in this episode we are joined by Sam Grace. We are joined by Sam Grace. Sam is currently the lead under 16 culture at Reading FC and has 12 years experience coaching in a carry-for-ball. In this episode Sam takes us through some of his master's research around sports psychology as we discuss some of the implications for both coaches and players.
The UEFA A-Lyson's coach shares some strategies to help coaches and performers to develop their understanding of their emotions and how to improve their performance on the pitch. As always there are lots of practical tips for coaches working with young players. Hope you enjoy the show. Hello and welcome to On the Grass with me Dan Wright.
Today I'm delighted to be joined by Sam Grace. Sam how are you? Good thanks Dan. Cheers for having me.
No problem. So 60 seconds challenge. Tell us who you are and what you do. Okay so I'm currently in a coach at Reading and I've been an academy coach for the last 12 years.
Took up coaching because unfortunately playing was an option after bad injury when I was 17. Triple fracture. Being really engrossed in all facets of the game whether that is profiling the psychology and the different make-ups of the teams. So just completed my master's in sports psychology and as well as having my second son the day after so being nice and busy recently.
Fantastic. So lots of stress and dizziness at once there. So the reason I kind of want to have a chat with you today Sam is to talk about some of those studies. So maybe you could talk about to the point of the podcast is to help people in their environment.
So how could coaches take in some of these studies to work with their young players? Okay so yeah probably the first study which I have blogged about with the PVP so there's more information there. So the first one was I had a look at emotional intelligence and I looked at it from the point of view of my own. I'm having a look at my self awareness, self regulation, motivation, my communication skills and my empathy.
So probably the main sort of take home point I'd say for coaches was I used a diagram called Plaxx Wheel of Emotions. Now it sounds really scary but it's not basically what it is. There's different levels of emotions on this. What looks like a colourful flower really.
So for instance on one petal you say it starts with annoyance, then moves into anger and then goes into rage. There's like a heightening of the emotions. And what I did for about six weeks is after each session I picked three random players and I'd asked them just to write down some notes on this against the wheel of emotions. Just see where they thought I'd gone in that session.
So whether I showed interest in someone and they said that's when you came and asked me how my day was. Whether you showed annoyance for instance somebody not listening. So I built up this sort of database and this profile over the course of the study. I got coaches to do it for me too.
So what they saw from me to just really try and raise that awareness of what I look like. And it was quite interesting. So applied it to something called the Jahari window again which really is a nice way of looking at things I knew about myself. So I didn't say I documented where I thought I was as well.
So for instance at the end of the period joy was the one most commonly associated with me. So I thought I showed joy and happiness the players did too. Interest came very high and so did annoyance. So you know giving yourself an understanding of what emotions you leak so it doesn't always have to be through the words you say your actions but it could also be through your body language and facial expressions.
So the window looks at other areas so as well as what I know it's also what others know about me. So for instance, I don't know about me so vigilance was an area where I thought I showed quite a lot but nobody else did but that's to be expected perhaps because obviously they don't know you're in a thought. Interesting one for me was that other coaches thought I showed apprehension quite a lot. So when you dig down into that what does that mean and it might be all we're playing this team today.
We haven't got this player or I'm worried have we practiced enough time on this so that gave me really good insight that perhaps actually you've got to put on a bit more of a self confidence when I'm delivering or when I'm on that day because you don't want that apprehension to transfer to the players. So when you took this feedback from colleagues and from players did you notice whether patterns or similarities or differences between training and game day with a different and was that part of your thoughts to try to marry up what you did in training with what you saw in game day perhaps when there's more stress and more adversity. Yeah, I think it's spot on so the game days are really really interesting one so throughout the study also went to most interview some high level coaches so Nigel Atkins and obviously been a Premier League coach Southampton Reading Hull interview Richard Dobson current weekend one just assistant manager and Peter Moore's the X England cricket. International coaches well as for not CC now just asking the range of questions around these so as well as from the information they gave me as well as what the literature saying literally saying is actually emotions is a bit of a dial and sometimes obviously you need to turn that up.
Sometimes you need to calm it down based on your feelings based on how what type of message you're trying to get across and I guess for all coaches or people that's the big learning section so in terms of where you want to question we went to a cup game we haven't started well. So I think I've come off after the first period and I'm thinking right this is this is you know thing I've read about this is running to turn the emotions up now and focus the mind show everyone that this is important anyway so that's what it did probably gave a bit more intense team talk and you know still giving the details instructions but it was a bit more importer to say and then afterwards got them to carry out the wheel of emotions again and it was amazing so in terms of their feedback so now they were saying things like I'd shown discussed you know they say why they thought that and somebody information they were giving and I never said any of this so it was really interesting the fact that I've ramped up my mind. My motion in that team talk had completely distorted the message and have been lost so what I guess what they take my message from this is you've got to be mindful when you use it you probably in a new experience something different is not the first time you want to be showing the different level of emotions because as I said I look the message got lost to the players. And so people who are perhaps working in a grassroots environment or just kind of starting out on their coaching journey how could they probably do something similar with their players.
Good question so if you didn't want to use the paper when I understand that it's not practical always to have that on the side of the pitch and probably just is feedback isn't it it's hard because you're going to have to almost educate the players on what you're asking some, especially with teenagers and this is the hardest bit with the teenage players is a lot of them they just want to give you yes no leave me alone I can go now and having to help them get through that so for instance the emotions is that there's over 25 and some of them I think maybe won't select it because the players don't truly understand what that means you know what does for submission look like on the side of the pitch or admiration you know happy enjoy maybe what's selected because they understand those and I think it's one of those that you if emotions have been high and you know most of us are going to reflect but perhaps ask those afterwards you know ask your coach I think the coach is probably the really interesting feedback because of the existing relationship you have they're more like to be honest with a player maybe a bit worried about telling the truth or find that a little bit harder. And so how do you think you probably changed or adapted and become more self-aware in this process so like if you had a starting point and then let you say to best the players you've actually colleagues and then you've gone through maybe a season's worth of training and games what is your coaching like now or perhaps what you're more aware of when you're interacting with people. Yes so as part of it as well in those moments where I'm aware that my emotions you know I'm displaying the motion I started trying to look at what the thoughts going through my head so being more aware of those physiologically how does that manifest so for instance players just told you can't play this weekend you know you think you're going to be in the future. You've done your plans for it if I feel that in the pit of my stomach that's almost those little signs now okay need to be aware of how I respond to them so yeah I found that really really helpful looking at the thought processes the physiological responses as just you sort of like warning signs or indicators that you need to be aware you need to possibly regulate how you next acts and communicate with the players.
And then kind of moving on to working with young people have you got some experience or advice of how you could help young people maybe regulate their emotions when they're conscious of being in kind of the heat of the battle of games. Yeah so this was the this was the main thrust of my dissertation so I worked with the player for four months to help him emotionally regulate so I think the first thing would be you need to have an understanding of that player so you need to know what are the triggers what frustrates him what gets them annoyed and then identify those real the real situation to the player that I worked with losing was a big one for him other players not giving what he perceived at all and then sensitive injustice and unfairness so once you're aware that these are three situations that can frustrate him you're then going to go down as a similar line to myself okay what are the thoughts associated you know for instance like for him and the injustice it's not fair why always me so once he's becoming aware of these thoughts you know he then links what do I normally do after these well sometimes you know shut down on the pitch I just sort of down tools for 30 seconds other times I might aggressively communicate with either a coach a player teammate so we're just initially we're just raising awareness of these situations so then it gives them a chance to go hang on a minute I'm going down this line of behavior when actually I want to go the other way so that was the another important part of it recognizing what are the behaviors that you want to display so I'm going to go down as a player to display so on your best day what do you look like so for instance he said you know I'm shoulders back I'm communicating a lot I'm asking for the ball I play forward more you know receivables under pressure so if you want behaving in accordance with your personal playing values then the hooks of those negative emotions and thoughts are possibly stopping you being in line with your values yeah and I think anybody who's coached teenagers would understand what you speak about there I'd be interested to understand because in my experience I think kids are quite able to tell you after the event I felt this and this happened and I lost control all right I wasn't the best version of the game myself how would you help a player kind of in that moment because maybe after the game or you know the Tuesday after the Sunday they could tell you quite clearly when that happened or when the referee did that I reacted like this it didn't go well and we went down this path but how can you kind of prevent that or have them deal that in the moment without kind of shouting at them or causing conflict like how would you develop that rapport and that skill for that young person to recognize this is the exact moment where it's going and I'm and the things I need to do our ABC rather than XYZ yeah I think it's a great a great question in those in the bit the literally I've read rounds most coaches say that we need we recognize we need to help them but we're not quite sure how so if I give you a couple these were the ones that we're not sure that we need to help them but we need to help them but we need to help them but we're not quite sure how so if I give you a couple these were the ones that we need to help them but we need the ones that the player found most helpful so the first one was a metaphor so it's the Beachball metaphor so if you imagine your frustrations so let's say an opposition player maybe he's kicked you he's giving you a hard time he's your frustration so if you imagine that player is a beach ball now if you try if you're in the sea that frustration comes across that beach ball comes towards you you try to press that beach ball you push it under the water you try and get rid of it what does it do Dan he's going to pop back up in the air even higher there you go it's going to pop back it's probably going to splash you on the way causing more anoints frustration so that is your frustration at the moment if you just leave that beach ball what happens? Not a lot. Not a lot.
Yep. So you can focus on what you need to and probably it's going to end up ultimately drifting away. So that beach wall of the theory that underpins this emotional regulation to mention something called an acceptance and commitment therapy acts. So it wants you to notice your thoughts whether they are positive or negative.
It's not trying to reduce the symptoms or reframe them. And it's just notice them. You can't help the thoughts and emotions that necessarily you're feeling at that moment. If you're frustrated with the play, that's perfectly normal.
You might have kicked you. You might be completely justified. By staying, not acting in accordance with your values, by not moving on, you're not going to have the performance you'd like. The second one is called the Five R's.
It's by Dr. Misha Jervis. So she helps supervise my dissertation. So these five R's are about getting you back to the levels you want in terms of performance, leaving those frustrations or annoyances or anything that's upset you behind.
So the first R is regaying. So for instance regaying stability. So I think something all blacks use these. When they talk about the red and the blue head.
It's just a little way of resetting themselves. But that regaying yourself, standing, leg set part, shoulders back, being in contact with the ground nice and hard solid base. The second R is relaxed. So we're teaching and breathing.
So in through your nose and out through your mouth, sorry, too long breaths in. Your stomach should go in. Should go out on the intake of breath. So you get a nice deep breath.
And that has a calming effect physiologically as well. The third one is refocus. Because often when we're frustrated, all our focus goes on that specific thing that's annoyed us. The refocus requires you to check all four corners.
So suddenly you go in one, two, three, four. So you're taking your gaze away from the frustration. But also from a football perspective. Hopefully you should be picking up things like your teammates positions or opponents positions where the spaces actually all really help you from the playing point of view as well.
The next one R is the fourth one is reminder. So a little bit positive self talk, whether that's I can do this. Whatever works again for that individual. And then the final one is a reconnect.
So whether that's you're talking to the player to side of you, little high five showing that I've left all that frustration, annoyments behind and back in the game doing what I need to. So I've got five bars and the individual metaphor with the two and the player chose himself out of six or seven that we delivered to him. Fantastic. I think I'm always looking for golden nuggets for people to take away.
So those five bars I think are really useful. And then I'd imagine in terms of a process, this isn't something that you talk about on Tuesday and then by Sunday, it's completely fixed. This is something that could take half a season, a whole season, five years for a player to fully master. And maybe something they never completely master.
If you look at someone like Wayne Rooney who even in 27 was showing to managers emotions, I think you never perhaps master this. This is something you just get slightly better. Is that how you'd see it? I think you're right.
I think possibly in the academy, we're guilty of, okay, let's put a session on on goal setting or let's put a session on on self-talk. We put it on once and we expect the players now to have that completely down. They know how to do it. We've delivered that.
But we wouldn't expect the same for a no-craving space or left foot volleys, whatever it was. So yeah, it was during the intervention. The actual delivery part was for eight weeks. And it was a practice.
It was a practice each week. He'd review his performance. You know, we'd ask him first week, you know, how do you think you did on your target? Which was for him, which was trying to reduce his frustrations in terms of the visual ones.
And he was like, I don't remember my target. You know, and that's the real world. By week two, week three, he said he's now becoming more aware of his actions. So one of the things, when he was frustrated, he jumped up and throw his arms up in the air.
And you're now seeing, he's just catching himself every now and then go, I don't want to do that. But then again, so we might make progress for two weeks. The next week, the game was, as you said, earlier, so much tougher. So, you know, the frustrations are more because it's a cut match.
The opposition are better. So that's harder. But yeah, as you said, we're just chipping away. We keep going.
We keep practicing the techniques. We try and identify. So for him, it was identifying which techniques fitted best in which situations. So that's why it was, you know, it was a four month intervention because you're trying to get tangible results and effects on his behavior, which ultimately could still be improved after four months because, as you said, the more we do, the better it will be.
Yeah. And then maybe from a practical point of view, there's things you could do in training to try and replicate. It will never be exactly the same, but replicate that moment, that challenge, that adversity in a small set of game, you know, by refereeing poorly or putting one of the team that's got five, the other team's got seven or man marking him. There's loads of what people might think are technical technical outcomes, but probably more cycle social outcomes.
Is that another strategy that people could explore making training mentally tough, mentally difficult? Yeah, I think so. And I think sometimes sometimes with refereeing decisions, you've got to be clever because they might cut it onto it. But what the one I found is I'll pick, so you've got maybe two sides and you might set them a task.
So for instance, it might be pressing and you actually pick a team, you might have a better grasp of who's not actually the best at reading cues and triggers to when to set up, when to cover space and intercepts. So you actually put a team that you know, actually, he's going to find it hard or you know the opposition will be able to keep the ball better. So it's not as obvious maybe as given decision against him because I find smart players and they quite quickly recognize what you're doing, especially if you've been working with them on an individual basis to try and improve it. So those little subtle ones, if you can try and get them in, then they're really valuable.
And then kind of like you said, that process of games training review, it can be difficult even from a coaching perspective in a game when the player has perhaps shown improvements and then could relapse for the work of a better word. So they might go on a steady three or four week, getting better at it, being more mindful, being more aware and then a poor refereeing decision or a difficult game where they lose in the last minute and you might see a relapse. Is that something that people need to be aware of? It isn't going to be a straight trajectory from I'm here to get to be better at this process.
Yeah, 100%. I mean, there's all sorts of things and there might be different formation, might be different coach taking the team as different expectations. We have trialists joining us and obviously they're understanding in terms of maybe how the team is played in the past is different. They make different decisions.
Yeah, there's a plethora of different things. But that's the same as when you, you know, which one prepared them for when they get to the first team. Now, if you're a young player going to the first team squad, you're probably going to be on the bench or substitute typically more than you've ever been. You've got contract issues.
You know, you probably don't have the same necessary care and attention that maybe down the academy we give them. It's a bit, you're into the big world now. You're a professional, get on with it. That's a subjective answer.
But yeah, the stresses don't stop just because I think you get out of the academy. They just keep getting bigger and bigger. You know, you're trying to provide for your family. Contract might be up at the end of the season.
You don't know. So all if we can try and help them with strategies and awareness of what, of how they react in these situations and I think it's real valuable. And then just finally before we move on to the famous question cube, in kind of your coaching journey, how much emphasis or importance would you put on this? Because my personal bias is that I started off wanting to know about session plans and exes and o's and as soon as you realize it's about humans and interpersonal skills and motivating and inspiring individuals, that is for me what coaching is now.
How does that shift happen for you? Where would you put this emotional intelligence and working with building rapport and understanding people in terms of where it was when you started coaching, where it is now in your coaching role? I think you're bang on when you first start. And it was a lot to do with the qualifications you go through.
When you first start this and games you level one and level two, you're done with technical detail with a little bit of tactical and you went out to be licensed and I love to be licensed course but there's so much for me to learn tactically. You didn't really touch on the psychological and then once you start feeling confident with those technical aspects, you realize you know what actually it's a great technical player but for some reason he struggles more in the games than he does and actually he's not as technically proficient possibly and just wanting to know that why, how can I help him be as robust or have such an effective performance as him. What makes the difference between the players, who are the coaches that can do it and that's probably the most obvious one isn't. You look at the coaches that are having success now so you don't doubt them technically and tactically but they look inspirational.
The performances and development they draw out of their players seems to be the ones that separate the clocks, the posture team, those are the only ones maybe from the next set of coaches below. So yeah I think it's a crucial factor. Fantastic, I think there's lots of nice kind of little projects with people to go where it's going to be interesting to see if anybody in the community has a play with their players and some different kind of frameworks and templates and stuff and we can bounce some ideas. I'm going to move on to the question cube.
So there's 20 random questions in here. We're going to select five and try and put you on the spot a little bit. Question number one, what piece of equipment do you use regularly and why? So my guilty pleasure is a flat marker or I like to mark out different areas and spaces on a pitch but what piece of equipment do you use a lot and why?
It's probably changed so really from start of this season, very lucky and all my sessions have been videoed. Now that's invaluable for me because suddenly I'm trying to be more succinct with my communication and that just helped me know and watch afterwards review in terms of performance the players did I get out when I wanted. There was a moment when you want to check back on what exactly happened there and the video gives you that sort of honest answer and I found that with players now and say just come in here just have a look at this. So you know when you saw this and maybe I thought this, you come to a greater truth or greater honesty or vice versa.
Come in here, what did you see here? Why did you perform like that at that moment? So as a reflective tool I found the video really, really powerful and I feel very lucky to have that at the moment. And a nice link back to the main conversation right because that's about vulnerability and rapport.
Like I might have made a mistake as a coach and you might have seen something better than me or let's have a conversation about it rather than coaches King and coaches King and I'm going to tell you why you were wrong. That's quite a nice link. So nice link. Question number two.
Okay. How do you build relationships with parents? So I think the major one for me and again, clicking back to the project, I was struggling not living by my value. So honestly for me it was a really important thing.
So that being honesty with the parents in terms of why you make a certain decision, honesty in terms of their son or daughter's progress, you know what the area is specifically they need to work on. I think for you to have those conversations you're going to need regular contact. So you're speaking to them. So for example, the start of this season, so typically reviews I think are held halfway or at the end.
We're sitting down at start of the season and within that the players before it comes to the meeting, what are their season expectations? What do they think are some of the barriers to them having success this season? You know, and then greater understanding of that players background so that before we've even started we're building a relationship. Also we're doing it from almost a neutral start point.
I think so often the first time we have a contact with a parent other than arranging fixtures or trainees, are there's been a problem or they're not happy with game time, that type of thing. So you're not off on the wrong foot and you're not, no one's really looking to build a relationship. If it's coming from a negative perspective. Yeah, it's hard to have a conversation when there's no relationship.
So if that conversation starts with, I'm not happy about this then you're going to have a tough time as a coach. Question number three. Oh, this is quite deep. What is coaching in your opinion?
Well, it's a good one. Well, yeah, I'm sure there'll be a multitude of different opinions on this. I think the biggest thing for me, and I think of coaching as opposed to teaching, so I think it's more of a two-way process. So we're both trying to, you know, the players trying to probably have the ultimate goal in the game, but I think it's a good thing to have the environment of getting a first team contract.
You know, my goal is to try and help you get there. I think it's then the interesting thing is then up to the coach to sort of find out what's the best way of getting them there. So again, Peter Moore's got great analogy. He said, some will walk across that bridge in terms of development.
Some you can almost, you know, point them it's that way and some you might have to hold their hand across. So finding that way of getting the best out of the player. And I think as I said, it's more and more now. It's a two-way process rather than being so coach directed.
Nice, nice answer. Question number four. Do you have a favorite practice and can you describe it? And probably this question should be what is the player's favorite practice?
But it can be the coaches too. What's your favorite practice and can you describe it? Yeah, I think they are. They are.
They are some. I don't think we many coaches that choose a favorite practice that the players don't like as often as those smiles and enjoyment is probably one of the main reasons why people do the great job that we do. So it's one I'm sure has done in many a pitch, many in Astro all around the world. It starts off small sided pitch goal either end.
First goal keeping either goal. First player sets off as a shot. Soon as that ball is there to then attacking. So it's to the one against him.
Again, soon as that ball is there, the one now gets to others to join him. So he's now got the overload and it's 3v2. So it goes on and on until you finish with either 5v5 or 6v6. So that constant counter attacking attack versus under load.
Are you going to pass? Are you going to dribble? It just has so many multiple outcomes. It's high intensity, it's high pace.
The game never looks the same. So very, I love putting that one on the player seems to enjoy it a lot too. Yeah, so I've been fortunate to ask quite a few people that question. There seems to be some common threads.
The first one is that they look like the game. So you said two goals and goalkeepers. Most people have said something looks like a game. And the second one is they have more than one theme.
So that session could be about finishing under pressure. It could be defended under number. It could be counter attack. It could be transition.
Those seem to be two things. One, it looks like the game and two, there is more than one outcome in that practice that means it looks like football. And the problem solving, I think that's the big one for the players. So it's stimulating, isn't it?
If we put games on each week, they're going to go, we can do something different as much as sometimes. That's the first thing they want to do. That variety, that little mental challenge I've found is what the top players, that's what they really want. A little bit of spice.
Okay, last question. What are the things you look at when working with the player for the first time? So you talked a little bit about maybe having a trialist in your group. So a new boy is coming to the session.
What are the things you were looking for? So I guess a bit of personality. So first of all, how are they as a person? Are they one that comes straight across?
Shakes you by the hand? Are they one that's just looking to blend in? I'm always intrigued. You don't necessarily read anything into that because everyone's from different backgrounds.
I have different experiences in life. And so they're probably the first things you look at. And then you're looking at what they do. Why are they here?
Because you want to, for me, when a trialist comes in or a new player comes in, he's here for a reason. I want to make him feel relaxed. I want him to get out. Everything that he wants to do, and we see the best possible version of him.
So you have those conversations. Where do you play? What do you think your strengths are? And you're looking to put on sessions that can show that.
I want to see something, I'll probably have a weakness if I want to, for those game intelligent player players that do well in tight spaces. Scanning constantly, come up with different solutions. I've got a dream and I've got a first time pass. So those kind of things really, really exciting.
That's probably where my bias is. But yes, we want to just want to see them at the best. Good. And it's good that you're aware of that bias.
That links it to the conversation a bit of several minutes. So that's the question you've done nice and easy. The next question I have is, what is kind of next for you in the next 12 months? What things will you be looking at either with your team or your coaching journey?
What things will you be focusing on over this next season? Yeah, well, my wife made me promise that there's no more studying for the game. So look after the little ones, which I do absolutely love, but she's great. And in terms of giving me extra time to go to the library, as you know, the life turned upside down a bit of your academy coach.
You're working funny hours here and there. So there's no major studies around the corner at the moment, but she knows what a nugget bubble ritual come back pretty soon. I think in terms of working with the 16s issue, one of the areas really looking to develop. It's linked to Mark Bennett's work.
So at the moment, we're going through behaviours. So what's exceptional? What's acceptable? What's unacceptable?
So we're now looking at different things. So for instance, what does that look like in the gym? What does that look like on the train pitch when you're travelling to games? So we're trying to just cover all these areas so that we have a shared understanding.
I mean, it's been great recently. Sports science have helped us. So they've looked at the position specific later. They've gone, you know, this is exceptional, total distance and high intensity running for a striker.
This would be acceptable. This would be unacceptable because you need those little differentiations, I think, because most people would rather have a striker who does acceptable distances and scores three than someone who's exceptional but doesn't affect the game. So yeah, those exceptional, acceptable, unacceptable. We're going across a range of different things.
We're sitting down in little cluster groups. Everybody's putting their thoughts down. We then present them back and we come to a shared understanding. And it's just, it's letting us all be on the same page.
An example, again, would be, so for instance, we were looking at what's exceptional in terms of turning up for training. So some people were saying being there five minutes early, acceptable. Sorry, exceptional. Something being there one minute before times acceptable.
So we've got not through any fault of their own, but with all these different leading thoughts and ideas. So that shared understanding means we're more likely to achieve our outcomes. So it's now been agreed that exceptional is at least 20 minutes before the session. And it also means I'm working on things that I need to improve on.
So it's not just the time, it's how you use the time. So I found that really valuable. We're getting everybody on the same page and we're really pushing forward. Nice.
I used to work at a football club that used the phrase on time is late, which is a nice one for the kids. And again, another nice kind of golden nugget for coaches, but you don't have to be working in an academy or a high performance environment. So you can have exceptional standards to put in the equipment away or helping with the kit or like you said, turning up on time. They're simple things.
Whether you're working under sevens or you're working with first team, those kind of standards will help you with all those edge groups. If people have listened to this podcast and they're interested in getting in touch, where's the best place to find you? Yeah, probably on Twitter. So Twitter handle is at the number one, Sam Grace, with nice and easy.
Fantastic. So I'll be really interested to see if a few people try those kind of strategies with their players and if they knock up any templates or they get any results from their players, that'd be really interesting. Yeah, I'm happy to share some people who really ask and send copies, then you really want to do a long treat, need some sleeping literature, then I can send that cross. That's not a problem.
Fantastic. Thanks Sam. Thank you very much for your time today. I really enjoyed the conversation.
Cheers Dan. Appreciate it. Thanks for joining us on the Play Development Project podcast. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Play at DP or find us on Facebook.
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