Welcome to the Mariners Church Life Group Leader Podcast. This weekly conversation is designed to equip and resource youth to build a healthy, life group community that studies God's word, practice the spiritual rhythms, and changes the world together. Welcome leaders back to the Life Group Leader Podcast. We are looking at week two in our series on the table.
And I've got our chair pastor, Mr. Paul Hahn, joining us today. Hey Paul. Hey there leaders.
Good job. Good job. Thanks for joining us on this episode, Paul. We're really grateful for you and your leadership and your insight with particularly this week's topic.
All of our topics are on the table. Our questions that we all ask, questions that have been asked of us, that we want to be equipped to navigate well with thoughtfulness and looking at scripture and questions that are raised in our life groups. And so this is a question that many, many have asked. Then what are my questions?
We're looking at what is the unforgivable sin? Like maybe you've heard that expression before. What is that? I've heard about this verse about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
What if I committed the unforgivable sin in some traditions? They look at death by suicide and wonder does that classify? And we're going to look at all of those things to help equip you through today. As it is every week, super, super important on a couple of things.
First, I want to encourage you to go listen to the series overview that we released the Wednesday before week one of on the table with Eric. We sat down and you did that. And then of course listen to the message. Come to the weekend, listen to the message.
But all of these, I would think these would be ones that you want to do a double listen to. Like listen a couple of times to these. Absolutely. And I've said it almost every week at this.
I'm so just overall gratitude that we're a church that not only wants to host and have conversations about any and every question, but also provide thoughtful, caring biblical response to these questions. Yeah. And so we're just like, we're just so grateful that you are confronted probably with these questions just as much as we are as pastors, right? You're the ones who are living life and walking alongside so much of our church.
And so thank you for doing that. But second of all, I hope that your feeling as these weeks go on, that you're feeling well equipped and well-resourced, even if it's just helpful language, helpful resources, a thought exercise on some of these things. Yeah. Hey, and even before we dive into the questions, I'll just run off the bat.
Why don't you talk about some of the great resources that are in our Terry recovery world that you helped to lead out that would be helpful for leaders? Yeah, absolutely. So as the Terry recovery pastor, I just want to be sensitive, especially to those who maybe the quote unquote, unpartentable sin that they've been wrestling with, suicidal ideation, or even on a greater scale or more common scale, might even just be feelings of depression or hopelessness. And so just for you guys to know, and I hope that you do already know, but to even remind you that our care and recovery ministry is here as a resource for all of you, for all of our like group leaders that as you're having conversations and as these things are coming up that you know that there are resources for you.
So the first one that I want to share with you is a conversation on mental health and faith. So we're hosting a conversation with Christian counselors and therapists, psychologists, and they're going to come in and just have a really honest conversation of how they have seen and what they've come to believe is true about the intersection and even the overlap and as professionals in this area where they lean on faith, where they lean on the healing that only God can bring and they're going to bring the practicality of tools and exercises and breathing techniques and also they of course, they believe in efficacy of counseling and brain mental health resources. But also as professionals, they know that there's work that the Holy Spirit needs to do. So I want to invite you guys to come on January 28th, it's a Sunday and to join us right after the 1130 service to come on over to room 208 and we're going to have a panel with some professionals and then resources.
That's great. And also that's just a great general resource. I hope it's one that doesn't feel intimidating for those where you could be coming for resources on behalf of a loved one on behalf of a life group leader or if you yourself want resources that that's one great one. But I also want to let you guys know that community that's one of our main things that we say is important for all of us.
You guys are like group, we don't even know the importance of community. But one of the areas that community is super important is to act as a support network for those who are struggling. For those who, yeah, this is part of their story. And so we have a variety of different groups including remedy.
We have groups specifically for depression and anxiety, like living grace for women. We have depression bipolar support. We have NAMI, which is a national and some mental illness. So so many groups on our website, but you can take a look at them again.
That's even outside of your life group, which can act first initial, you guys are praying for them, you're listening to them, you're practicing a ministry of presence with them. They know that you love them. But if you need a supplemental community support around them of other people who have walked through similar journeys, similar experiences with mental health, that there are support groups with them as well. And then for you guys to know, just if you are ever in the midst of a crisis, that you are in a conversation that feels really scary to like definitely know that you can reach out to us.
But it's also maybe appropriate to reach out to a suicide hall like that. If you're in that conversation and you're scared for the well-being of someone that you're talking to, it may be appropriate to call 911. It may be appropriate to call 988-988, which is our National Suicide Hall line, or even text home, H-O-M-E, to 741741. And that's a text-in number, which is all, they're all resources.
They're all about lines and warm lines for you to receive care in the moment if you're feeling that this is like a crisis or an urgent situation. It's really good. It's really good. It's really good.
It's really good for Paul that we have those incredible resources here. It just doesn't underscore what you're saying. Always appropriate to seek help and live for resources. Never appropriate to try to figure it out and solve it all by yourself.
Nor is it your role too. I mean, it's the reality of doing life in community. Things get messy and it's the realities of life. And leaders, you love the people in your group.
That's the first and primary thing that they need to hear that you need to hear. We all need to hear that you are seen fully known and fully loved, no matter what you're facing, no matter what the difficulty is. And that it's not our responsibility to try to solve the problems that others are facing. We point towards resources.
We partner with others and we seek out the help that's needed. And I love all that you leave that out that we've got an abundance of resources, both on offer here that we do here at Mariners, but also we could point to you outside of Mariners. So that's great, man. All right.
We're going to jump in now. We're going to interact with the questions that are related to this week's topic. There's a lean in question here. I think that we can create one rule that everybody in the world would follow.
What would it be? And I think the point of this question is you kind of want to start to expose that we all have these rules, right? I think these lines in the sand that we kind of fixiously create and surprise, surprise, we can't even hold them up ourselves, right? So let's try to just open up our thinking into that mindset.
Like if your rule was, I wish I want everybody to be on time, all the time, on time, all the the time. Well, guess what? Are you on time all the time? All the time?
No, I'm not because guess what? Paul and I were supposed to have this up. I guess you're quoting yesterday and I moved it today and I pushed it to the half an hour from its original meeting. So I think that's a good question.
It's just to get you thinking about the rules that we created and how we can break them ourselves. It's a fun way to even like I love how some of these could be lighthearted. Yeah. I can even get into some of that where we're exploring opportunities and areas for us to be more gracious.
Yeah, totally. Yes, that's right. That's good. I'm going to read the passage here in a minute for the look down section.
But just a reminder, it's always helpful to look at the questions related to the lookout before you read the passage. So there's a couple of questions here. What do you learn about forgiveness and sand from the passage? Actually, that's the one question for this week.
So what do you learn about forgiveness? What do you learn about sand from the passage? So you want to take that question and then read. We're going to read Matthew 12 and then we'll read just a portion of the next passage in Hebrews 10.
I'll go ahead here. Matthew 12, 30 through 32. What's the question? What do you learn about sand?
What do you learn about forgiveness? Anyone who is not with me is against me. It's the words of Jesus. And anyone who does that gather with me scatters.
Therefore I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy. But the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.
Either in this age or in the age to come. In Hebrews 10, I'm just going to read verse 26, but in your groups, the 3, 26 or 31. It says, if we deliberately go on sitting after receiving the knowledge of truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin. Okay.
So on the surface, it seems to be a sort of black and white understanding to these, but we need to dive into this a bit more to understand what Jesus is actually saying here. So Paul, how would you interact with that? What do you learn about sand? What do you learn about forgiveness from these passages?
I mean, as I reflected on it, I think what I was reminded by was this really beautiful statement that Eric made on the weekend, which is that Jesus has a high view of forgiveness. That's what I'm getting from it is just this sense of the vastness of God's grace and truly the power of the work of Jesus on the cross to cover every sin, to cover sins past, present, future. I mean, he even talks about speaking a word against the Son of Man, like speaking. You know him, can you even be forgiven?
And you're talking about God at that point. But what that reminded me of was even the passage from Romans 5 and 8 that God demonstrates his love for us. That even when we were sinners, he died for us. So yeah, it makes sense that even being against Jesus at that moment before we knew him is regular, that's, you know, consistent with his word.
Totally. When we were against Jesus, he would still die for us and that debt was sufficient. Yeah. Yeah.
And so, yeah, I was so encouraged about that concept of a high view of forgiveness is like vastness. Yeah. It's a high view of forgiveness and a sobering right size view of sin at the same time too. It's the sin that necessitates the need for forgiveness.
If sin was not a thing, then obviously sacrifice said we don't need that. But because there is a weightiness to our sin, then yes, grace atonement is available to us and it comes at a great cost. It comes at the cost of God giving us his son and us believing in him, and trusting in him. And so there's great truth in that.
I love that in verse 31 and Matthew 12, therefore I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin. So it tells us that there's been a way, like there's been an atoning sacrifice in which every sin will be forgiven. Then you get this butt statement. But last for me against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
You tie that into Hebrews 10 where it talks about and if we deliberately go on sitting after receiving the knowledge of truth, then a log remains a sacrifice to sin. So what would you say? Okay, what is it then? What is the unpartable sin?
Like what are we trying to say? And you can have a great conversation about that in your groups, but I'm actually going to read directly from Eric's sermon, which I think is helpful. And the two points that he makes here really within this passage is this reject the Holy Spirit and there isn't forgiveness for anything. So what is the unforgivable sin?
It's actually rejecting the Holy Spirit. What does the Holy Spirit do? He reminds us that we have a need of salvation, convicts us. Right?
Brings us into that spot of conviction that draws us towards repentance. And if we reject that to work with the Holy Spirit, so if you reject the Holy Spirit, then there isn't forgiveness for anything. But if you receive the Holy Spirit, then there is forgiveness for everything, for everything. And then I love what Eric says here in the message.
He says, so what is the unpartable sin? The unpardonable sin is continually rejecting Jesus when you understand who he is and what he has done. If you continually resist the Spirit showing that you need Jesus, if you reject Jesus over a lifetime, when you die, there is no way that you can be forgiven. There is a sin that is unforgivable and that sin is not murder.
It's not adultery. It's not suicide. It's not even spitting in the face of Jesus or yelling him to the cross. The unforgivable sin is rejecting him after you fully understand what he has done for you and rejecting him over and over again.
And so you probably sat in the people and were like, well, have I done that? I wonder if I did that because I keep doing this thing that I don't want to do. I'm stuck in this pattern and this habit. And it actually, in a really gracious way, that is the work of the Spirit to make you even ask that question, which shows you.
You wouldn't even be asking that question. If your heart was so callous in turn and completely rejecting, no, the fact that you're aware, cognizant of your sin and want to make a change about it, that is the work of always here. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Roman seven. Yeah. When we were sitting in Galatians, like, yeah, we couldn't give him freedom, right?
Right. We were set free for freedom. And yet we still have that tension of whether or not to use that freedom. Yeah.
Satisfied as selfish desires of our flesh to work to serve one another humbly in love, you know, to do the things that honor God and love others. Yeah. And so yeah, we're definitely in good company, even after being saved. Yeah.
Yeah. I'm just like, they've also Paul, like, yeah, on this side of heaven. Right. That's right.
And there's a difference between like Paul talks about using grace as a license to sin. Right. I've been forgiven for everything. So I could do anything I want.
Well, no, because of that also shows like a callousness to what it costs to receive your receive your forgiveness and a callousness for what you should be compelled to now act in light of that forgiveness that you've received. Yeah. Like grace demands a response and a response is our life's lived in appropriation to what God has done. Yeah.
Something that I've really loved and learned from being around those in recovery. I feel that idea of daily dependence. So when you're talking to someone who has a struggle or an addiction to something, yes, you can say like there are those instances where Jesus will miraculously take that stronghold away from them. Right.
But there are real people that I believe have an honest fate really made that honest decision to follow Jesus where they could hold that addiction for the rest of their lives. That's right. And so they learn what a daily dependence is, right? They know that every day they're going to face that battle.
They're going to face that tension. Maybe it'll be less Sundays in my comeback stronger other days, but they are leaning into like believing that Jesus is going to help them through that day. Yeah, that 24 hours. And so I think even in back to this conversation of like, what is the unpardonable sin?
It's not the struggle with sin, but it was the fact that there were those who said they didn't need Jesus. That's right. Those Pharisees who were living by morality, they were seeing in other words in so many ways. I don't need you.
I hear this out of my own. Yeah. But for those who, right, maybe even in your groups, like they continue to wrestle with that tension. Yeah.
It's a beautiful reminder of like, no, like actually in that tension, it's your choice to say, Jesus, I need you. Yeah. I need you in my marriage. Right.
That's that feels like it's on for I need you in this addiction that feels to, you know, right. I need you in the feelings of hopelessness, like be my anchor. It's good. Really good.
Really good. I mean, it's that will warrant CS Lewis quote that Eric does in the message here to there are only two kinds of people in the head who say to God that I will be done. And those two come God says in the end, I will be done. And that's like a willing choiceful, like I am complete.
I'm aware and I'm rejected. I'm aware and I'm rejected. I want nothing to do with your charity, your gift, your kindness. Like I'm going to trust it lean on myself for it.
And as you said, I think it's really well said too, that it's so often those that, you know, the religious morality, the elite, that feel like I've got everything fun. I don't need it that are often that much further from the reality of a graces and those that are totally aware and needing another one that are much closer to it. So really good. Great.
We'll go through these next one just a bit quicker. The lookout question then we want to start having a conversation about forgiveness and what that looks like a question here. When was the time you saw our experience, radical forgiveness, you might have a story of someone you've seen or you know or love where, man, they were aware and they got something that they didn't deserve. They received grace and that could come in a relational sense or you could talk from, you know, a salvation sense of what God has done to somebody.
And this is getting a little too personal in the lookout. Yeah. But as I was reading that one, I thought for some of our life groups where maybe it's been a while since you guys have done Rooted and you've heard each other's stories, that could be a really beautiful place to remind each other of like those aspects of your stories where, you know, you encountered God's totally really radical way and remind yourselves of, yeah, those stories that kind of makes our groups do good. That's a good point.
We'll say I did down the look again. The questions here really aimed at getting us in tune with the work of the spirit in our life, right? So if the impartable sin is rejecting the Holy Spirit and we've received the Holy Spirit. So what does it look like for us to have received the Holy Spirit?
Well, we're a couple of things that the Holy Spirit does. The first question is where do you see the fruit of the spirit in your life? Like where have you seen that sanctification? You know, that long obedience in the same direction like you're creating the environment, cultivating growth to be possible.
What does it look like? Where in your life have you seen the fruit of the spirit develop over time? And the second one, where in your life do you long to see the work of the Holy Spirit, which could say, you know, we don't always use these words, but like man, where do you often feel convicted by the Holy Spirit? It's the difference between condemnation and conviction, right?
So condemnation says you did it, you are this conviction says, no, actually, there's something that I want you to work together to grow out of this. You are, but I want you to grow out of this. That's good. I was going to say that I feel like the distinction there between condemnation and conviction is that condemnation is an identity that tells you that you are your sin for sure.
Yeah. And fiction is no, because of who got calls you to be. That's why this is more apparent. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. It's like a shaming saying for you become, right? And so I'm going to talk about that, but both of those things.
I came in and we're by seeing the work of the Holy Spirit in my life. We're by seeing that. And then where do I need to lead into some things? And again, that's just reminding us that you've received grace and that there's a journey about working that in our lives and how we follow up with fallen Jesus.
So have some good conversations with that as well. Awesome. Well, Paul, thanks so much for joining us again for the resources. And if people can't remember everything that we talked about, we're the best place to find these resources online.
Yeah. Come on over to our Mariners Church website, Manors Church and search care. And you'll be directed to our care and recovery page, which has all the information that you need. There's also some on the QR code, right on the table resources page.
And so hopefully between those two places, you'll have everything that you need. And then of course, you can always request to speak to a member of our care team. Yeah, our care team or pastor of the day line, all of that is on the page. That's all the resource we're all over life.
The leader is awesome. All right, guys. Well, thanks for your time. We'll see you this weekend and catch you on here next week for the next episode.