Welcome to the Mariners Church Life Group Leader podcast. This weekly conversation is designed to equip and resource you to build a healthy life group community that studies God's word, practices spiritual rhythms, and changes the world together. Welcome leaders to week three of On the Table. This week we are looking at the very important question of how do I know the difference between bad therapy and good therapy.
It's an important question. It's a relevant one and I believe it's going to generate good conversations in your group this week and delighted to have my good buddy, our care pastor Paul Hahn joining us. What's up Paul? Hey guys, glad to be here.
Yeah, I'm Paul that you're here. Not just the function of your role, but yeah, who you are who God has called you to be. You're passionate, you're making up that you are so clearly in the right spot to help us think about creating incredible environments of care. And you've been really a tremendous advocate for helping us to see what we already know to be true that when we talk about environments of care, we're not talking about some siloed part of ourselves or some siloed part of the church that this is integral to holistic discipleship that cares not detached from discipleship that care and the recovery journey is a core part of discipleship.
So I guess even before we get into looking at the question, just say a little bit more about that. You've been really helpful with me on that language. I think more about how God has been helping you to lead us to these spaces here at Mariners. Well, first of all, thank you.
Thanks, John. I did not pay him to come around me that way. But yeah, here at Mariners, I'm so grateful that care and recovery falls under adult discipleship. And that's really signaling to me, to all of you, hopefully, that cares for all of us and recovery is for all of us.
Because if we believe that we were completely different people before Jesus entered our lives, then we are all living out of a place of needing any type of restoration or freedom or redemption and recovery from something, right? That there are old patterns of thought or behaviors or man things that I used to run to for my sense of peace, identity, comfort. That once Jesus came in and he said, no, I'm the true source of peace. I'm your true hope that we all have to kind of unlearn and undo in our lives.
And so that's really the basis and heart of care and recovery is that man, we are all on a journey with Jesus where we are letting go of these small g-gods, these idols that we place in our lives and that we can, through the context of community and being in groups with other believers, start to kind of refine and experience sanctification in our lives. Yeah, and you know, we've got maybe some new leaders that are on here, maybe some leaders that haven't seen all the resources and the training that we do in partnership with you guys with care and recovery. Just give us maybe the two minute elevator pitch here of what is Mariner's pathway for care and recovery from recovery support groups and of course, talk a little bit about regen. And this is a part for us to know as leaders because this is a resource for you, to point people towards you, for you to use in your own journey so just give us that overview.
Yeah, and just again, to emphasize, we are here to come alongside you. We want to help resource our leaders in our church because we know that you are sometimes the front facing, or the pastoral care that some of our folks are looking towards as the leaders and shepherds of their group. And so as your hearing stories know that we have so many environments to care for you guys starting with our growth group environments. So this might not necessarily be like you're actively walking through a crisis situation or maybe something life hasn't really happened, but you're always looking to grow in your skills and communication in ways that you can even connect with God and with others.
Our growth group environments are there to help you develop these skills sets so that when something does happen, you know how to communicate in a healthy way that you can relate to others and even have a better self awareness and understanding to give you the foundation to walk through those things. And then we have our support group environments and these really are where the care and care and recovery comes in. And this is where a season of life, something that was unexpected that happened. Maybe it's a new diagnosis, a health diagnosis, maybe it's a mental health diagnosis, or something even relationally, maybe you're recalling an unhealthy relationship that really impacted you and maybe left some trauma there.
We do have support groups that will come around you and be the loving arms of Jesus to help walk through a season with you. So that's support groups. Our recovery space, which you mentioned, regeneration, it's our newest ministry here at Mariners. I love that you all are getting a sneak peek this weekend at regeneration.
But yeah, Eric's going to talk about it. It's part of the resource cards that you'll see this weekend. Depending on when you're listening to this, maybe you already talked about it. Regeneration is our discipleship program that leads to recovery.
It's everything that I just said, it's this understanding that we are dismantling these idols that we've placed in our lives and that the only true solution to it is not to white knuckle it through life or behavior modification, but it's really to right place your work, your focus of worship and your attention back to Jesus and know that he's the only one that can offer you true freedom for these things. So yeah, we want to invite you to join us on our official hard lunch day. Yeah, here at Mariners Irvine. Here at Mariners Irvine on Monday, January 27th at 630 in our youth building.
If you are around, if you're in the area, we would love to have you join us, worship with us and hear more about how regeneration has changed and will continue to change life. So that's really helpful to you. And all that's of course is available on the website. And then you may mention to some resources that you're going to receive as you attend this weekend.
One of them is going to list out more details about regeneration. Regeneration. Okay, great. We've watched the inner relationship.
You know whatever. Awesome. And then a supplemental tool tool to the message this weekend. How do I know the difference between bad therapy and good therapy?
You're going to hear Eric talk about really his burden and his journey through that from even pastoring in Miami and setting up a counseling center. And you know, it's a big deal. We take it very seriously as pastor is that those that got us called into our care that we want to shepherd them really well. We're shipping them immediately through our own personal relationships or in some case referring out to pay professionals and counselors in the clinical background.
And so, you know, how can we help our church to think about? Okay, great. So, I think the questions I should ask as I enter into that relationship, is there a good one that I should go to? What are those questions that are going to see in a car this weekend that are really, really helpful?
But just talk a little bit about why is this message even important? Eric talks about the new age of the therapeutic culture and maybe an over-diagnosis of anxiety. Yeah, I think from kind of being in this world for a couple of years now here, I'm so glad that our pastor put this question on the table. I've experienced it.
And maybe even a generational thing that he's noted of, yeah, as therapy has maybe become destigmatized in a great way, right? We don't want people to feel shame for wanting to seek counsel. But as it's gotten more mainstream in pop culture and even Instagramable, I feel like, yeah, we are seeing a tendency for people to isolate in some cases. The first phrase I came to mind was when people say, like, I'm just trying to protect my piece, right?
And so, even from a life group perspective, we're asking you guys to live life on life. And when two broken humans are coming together, there's going to be some friction. And hopefully learning and growing and maturity that comes out of that. I know for those of you guys who are married, that is a part of the identification process of marriage, right?
If we just went into with an mentality or self-diagnosis of, like, I just need to protect my piece, I don't think we would have healthy marriages. If you're just trying to avoid problems, that is not a way to grow in your own holiness or in the holiness of relationships. And so that was one thing that came to mind as he was sharing was, like, oh, man, this is such an important note for this generation and for our church to know that it's not all just innocuous, right? Because this is really impacting our own walks of Jesus and our relationships with us to have the right to mind-set.
Yeah, so it's all through the lens of shepherding and compassion. And then also, as you mentioned, like culturally, there's always over-correction in so many different areas. I'm a gen Xer, I think even in my generation, I'm certain older, there's more of a stigma around there. It was much more of an ignore it, stiff open lip, put it into the rug, kind of a thing, or mask it with sarcasm, my personal spiritual gift or whatever.
Whatever, whatever that might be. To now, we're so quick to name everything and define everything clinically based off of what we've heard or we've read or we've seen what we've seen online. And yeah, Eric has some great research at his sites in the message, but ultimately it helps us to have that tool to understand. Yeah, there is actually a difference between good therapy and bad therapy and what are those things that we should look at?
What does scripture have to say about it? It's really helpful. Great, man. We're going to breeze through the questions because this is just 10 minutes of us just talking.
I think this is really, really good and helpful too. So why don't we jump into it here? A few passages that I'll read here in a moment. Lean in this week is, do you consider yourself more and go with a flow person or more of a regimented and routine kind of person?
Is there some reason why and what do you learn about that? So this is just a question just to get you to get you to free flow in from here. Do you plan things out? Are you more regimented and routine?
I think I kind of oscillate from either. It depends on whether I love my routines, I love my morning routines, I love my running out of exercise, I love that. And then I do love free flow and conversation, spontaneity. So I don't think it's an either or.
Yeah, I was going to say even for me too, I think there's an importance to discipline. They're part of, I think, the Christian faith and even for those of you who have been rooted, which is hopefully all of you, my pre-pleeters, is that discipline is a part of the Christian walk. We want to learn healthy habits and behaviors that we integrate into our schedules regularly. I mean, being a rhythm, but so I was going to say in daily life, love to be regimented, but on vacation mode.
Yeah, totally. I'm a little, well, I think I'm type A. So I will plan my free time. Yeah.
Even if it's a block of like here's a three hour window of like nothing, just but it's planned. Right. So I think that question is just helping us to get a sense of understanding who we are, that it's not always a one size fits all, different personality, different settings. So just give us thinking of that kind of standpoint.
All right. And then we've got a few passages here. They're all quite shorter ones. I'm going to read them and then we'll interact with the questions.
And the questions here are, what are these verses? I'm telling us about how to pursue wisdom when we feel broken. And then the axe passage, what does Luke tell? What does Luke tell us that people did when they received the word from Paul?
So a couple of passages here. The proper 13, this is where the anchor passage of the message this weekend, the one who walks with the wise will become wise, but a companion of fools will suffer harm Jeremiah 17, nine, the heart is more deceitful than anything else and incurable who can understand it. And then the act 17 11 passage, the people here were more, were a more noble character than those in the night. Once they receive the word with eagerness and examine the scripture daily to see if these things were so.
So if you're different passages here, the one you're going to focus on primarily is going to be the Proverbs 13, 20, and the Jeremiah 17 about the deceitfulness of the heart. So what do we see in those passages, primary of those first two ones, Paul Proverbs in the Jeremiah passage? Yeah. I mean, I think it's the walk with the wise, the walk with the wise, become wise, and why we would even encourage you to really dig in and investigate and vet your counselor.
Just like, I love that he put himself on the line. Yeah, just like you would for a church or a pastor or why we would go and get a second opinion even for medical stuff. Like, you want to make sure that people that you're hearing from are wise people. So yeah, that's it out to me.
Walk with the wise and from the Jeremiah. I think that points to even how we started of like all of that self-diagnosing or self-identifying by things. Got to watch out for that because yeah, if you're just following your own, your own counsel, your own heart, like nowhere your heart is going to be a very deceitful. Absolutely.
Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Be really careful about creating a grand narrative out of temporary emotions that are normative experiences to just the human condition, right?
At the same time, is there such a thing as clinical depression and cli- absolutely totally. I love that Eric acknowledges that, but he also walks us through to just give a word of like really wise pastoral caution on that. Like the heart is deceitful and the emotions of the heart can be all over the place and we don't get our identity or even define our reality by what we may be experiencing in a temporal moment, right? Yeah, there's just some good wisdom there.
Awesome. So, I'll look out section a couple of questions. Therapy culture is pres- pres- pres- pres- pres- pres- I can't say that word. Pervasive in our lives today.
How have you seen therapy language or practices be helpful or harmful in the lives of people around you? And then if you're Jesus, what are some practical ways that you can let the Holy Spirit, the wonderful counsel work through you to serve people in your life? All right. How do we interact with those questions?
Yeah. I mean, in terms of therapy language being helpful, I know for me being a child of immigrants and coming from an Asian cultural background, like my parents didn't leave me through this language. They were not familiar with the language. So it's been helpful for me not having that just family dynamic to have some of the language, but like I said, for the harmful, the isolating that can happen.
Also just limiting the spirit of God to work in your life where you're like, no, I'm this. You know, I have a tendency to be this way so that's just who I am. I feel like that is not an invitation to the Holy Spirit to the right work in your life, which is going to the second question. Yeah.
Practical ways to let the Holy Spirit use you and serve others. I think one of the things I'm so grateful for our life groups and our life group leaders in particular is that you weekly get an opportunity to speak life and truth into the lives of the people in your group. And there's just something so powerful, even from like a therapeutic or counseling lens of building strength into people. And so they might be coming from an awful week or they might be in the middle of a really difficult season, but just even your ability as someone who's trusted and loves them in their life to remind them of maybe it's the gifts that you see in them or the ways that God has used them even in your own life or in your group.
You are actually building strength into them and it's a biblical thing, right? There's like life and death is on time. You get to speak life and strength into them. And so I see that as one way that the Holy Spirit even uses you guys every week to be able to speak truth and life and build up the body of Christ.
That's great. That's awesome. That's great. And it's not just a praying, read your Bible and everything's going to be better.
It's a yes, praying, read your Bible and create an environment for you to hear God's voice and experience his comfort, even when things aren't quote unquote better. But those disciplines, the practice of community, all of these things help keep in step of the spirit, hear the voice of our wonderful counselor, all of that for sure. And then that first question about the pervasiveness of therapy culture. Yeah, I think I see that.
And others that might be parents or teenagers, you certainly see it. But yeah, there is such a quickness to call everything anxiety, call everything depression. And again, those are very, very real. We all experience that.
But there is just because the barrier has been so much so lowered that there is a quickness and it's almost like I want to overgeneralize this again because I know this is a very real thing. We've experienced that many of you experienced that with your kids. It's a real thing. So all the compassion for it, all day long, believe me.
But there is sometimes I think there's a quickness to call something because it's more broadly accepted and it's almost like a, yeah, I have that too. So I'm with you. It's like a bonding thing. It's almost like a validation thing.
It's almost like a validation thing. We're really quick to call something that because ultimately we're looking for validation. We're looking for approval from others. And there can be a, yeah, an over response on those things where we can rush and create a narrative that may not actually be there.
All the warnings again at the same time. Yes. And as a parent of a teenage daughter, we rush and we go. We put us around and care and like many great parents would do.
And it's not for saking wise counsel and creating great environments of spiritual care and enrichment at the same time. So yeah, I'm just thinking the questions that conversations we're going to have this weekend in our life, right? And this will be where we'll camp at this for a while. And then we're already kind of talking about this reform here about walking with the wise, not the companion of full.
So there's just a question here. But what does that look like? How can you practically do that in your life with others, where have you experienced that? So you can have a conversation about that.
It comes with Monday night. Yes, you can. And I think some of the wisdom is there are people, there are a lot of people here on a Monday night who have lived a lot of life. Yeah.
And they've just gotten a little bit, maybe there are a couple steps ahead of others and they've experienced God's hope in the midst of the things that they've walked through. Yeah. And I think that's an aspect of wisdom, right? Right.
I've seen God work through the very things that they've walked through so that they can walk with others. Awesome. That's great. Fantastic.
All right. Hey, little breaking news for you still listening to us. You get some special information now. So many of you know me from my different roles around Mariners with rooted likers, certainly else.
But many of you know me as Lon John because for the last over three and a half years we've been having services and a beautiful lawn. God has done some great things out there. But ladies and gentlemen, this weekend January 18th and 19th is our final service on the lawn. And so we're going to pray and we're going to celebrate.
We're going to remember with gratitude all the great ways that God used that environment. And then we're going to walk over pray for if you're outside with me, you're going to get a VIP tour of our brand new outdoor worship center, which will be opening the weekend after that January 25th, 26th. I mean, come on down, celebrate with this. I mean, probably walk past it very times throughout the day, numerous times.
I mean, it's stunning. It's such a great. Oh, the sound is so good. It's so good.
So don't miss it. Last one this weekend, the lawn following weekend, first of course, we'll have you out there coming high five. And you say, hey, listen to podcast. I made it all the way to the end.
I'd love to see you out there. All right, guys. Have a great week and good discussions in your life groups this week.