Welcome to the Mariners Church Life Group leader podcast. This week the conversation is designed to equip and resource youth to build a healthy life group community that studies God's word, practices spiritual rhythms, and changes the world together. Well, welcome leaders to this week's episode of our Life Group leader podcast. This is going to be another great conversation designed to equip you as you navigate the on the table sermon series group discussion questions week in and week out.
And so as always, I'm not doing this by myself, but man, I keep inviting the best, the smartest of our staff. And I can think of no one other than the incredible, the legendary Steve Bang Lee. JT, so good to be here with you. I'm so glad I slid you that 20 right before.
Thank you. Pid every single dollar worth it. That's what I'm talking about. Man, honestly, that's an honor to sit down and have this conversation with you.
Not only because of what we're going to get into just a few moments of topic and some of the work we've done on this already, but just man, well, let me hear as we have you here. I mean, you do so many incredible things here at Mariners, but man, you're Lee Pastor at North Irvine and that congregation got to do great things, man. Let me just hear what you're excited about, what you see God doing at North Irvine. Yeah.
So, you know, I like to tell people that in 2020, my wife and I, more my wife, we had, we had two kids. First my number four, Ezra was born, but around the same time, North Irvine was born. Then we'd go back into the back alley and over the last two years it's just been a joyful rocket ride. I'm seeing a church go from zero to 600 by the grace of God.
But more than even just that, even just past weekend, I'm thinking about the one person who showed up to church eager and excited because they're a kid got a postcard in the mail. She was so thrilled. I'm thinking about the 12 folks who were in Welcome to Mariners lunch. 10 of them were saying, just give us the next step.
Let us dive in. I'm thinking about the mom and her son who stayed around after the 11th party and we got to have a theological but also a relational conversation wrestling through something in the gospel and so they're just beautiful things that the Lord is doing that I can go on and on John. to you to have this join your life because you are your Laker fan. I think as me and our listeners are.
What other fan are you going to be? You could be a warrior fan. You could be a warrior fan. You could be a warrior fan.
I love Jesus and other words. But that's where I was born to raise. That's a hard-hitting conversation we can say for later. But we haven't had some hard-hitting conversations.
We during this on the table series. We're about to make the turn here. It's a week five. But just be curious for you know what you've been encouraged by what you've seen by doing in and through the series, you know, locally and leadership.
I know you'll be a part of a group. You're a part of a group. You're going to be teaching one of these weeks, week eight. You get the easy conversation of how can there be a God of love and hell.
Just that little thing. But man, what have you been thinking navigating through the series so far? You know, John, I'm really excited because I heard someone say that someone is going to disciple the church. Either the culture, either cable news is going to disciple Christians or the church and the scriptures of the power of the Holy Spirit running the cycle.
And so I love that this series is simply we're opening the scriptures, opening our hands to the Lord and saying we want to be discipled by you. The world is raging. Cultures, screaming, social media outlets are going insane. We want to hear from you.
And so I'm thinking about last Friday, my life group. We had one of our most robust, beautiful conversations where I felt like we got deeper as a life group. It was a wonderful time. Sorry, man.
Awesome. And so then this week then we're making the turn. We've talked about, can I trust the Bible? Is Jesus the only way to the Father?
We've looked at Christianity, a press within minorities and others. Last week we had a stetzer, how incredible was that? Our scholar and residents to talk through suffering and the implications of that. And then now, over the next three weeks, we're going to be looking at specific issues around sex and sexuality.
And this is an important conversation. We can't have a conversation about issues that are confronting Christianity without a discussion here. And so some might be wondering, man, why are we taking three weeks actually to talk about different aspects of sexuality? Is this really that big of a deal that we need to discuss this at length and look into these things?
What would you say to even that posture of putting this in front of our congregation in three weeks? Yeah. Over three weeks. I mean, I might take 15 minutes to answer this question.
I'm ready to go. Two things. If you look at the history of the church, John, the church early on tackle topics like the divinity of Christ, the humanity of Christ. What is the nature of the church, the gospel?
I believe that we are in the age of the church. This is just me personally just taking a stab at it. I think we're in the anthropology era, which is what is the human being? What does it mean for us to be made in the image of God?
How does this play out in culture and in the church? I've never seen, and people are saying they've never seen this topic play out like this specifically in a culture. So there's that. The other part is, and I've shared this before, so you're going to have to bear with me, but in 1985, the first ever edition of a book came out called, Had to the Heart.
They coined the authors did expressive individualism, which said that essentially the new modern thinking, which has been taken from years of philosophy, from David Hume and others, that essentially we can only become our true authentic selves when we live out and move and step into what we feel. So historically, our feelings were one component of who we are. Now our feelings have become the top tier deal, which we must pursue. So our culture is steeped in this, and sexuality has been one of the dominant ways in which we're seeing this play out, that essentially I am my sexuality.
I am my inclinations. I am what I feel. And so there is this on the one hand of the major theological thing that is being played out, and yet there's this massive cultural thing that has been slowly being trickling down from years ago. It is now fully we are immersed in expressive individualism.
Yeah, and we see that right in the conversation we're going to have now, week five. What about God, the gender dysphoria and transgender movement? I mean, this is a conversation that I think Eric even referenced me on. This wasn't one that we thought you'd be talking about when you're in seminary years and years ago and look at all the theological implications of how we read and interpret scripture.
I mean, this is one that it's not one that we're like aggressively like, man, we can't wait to go, but it's here within culture. It's here. And so I think every church we have a decision to make of, okay, well, do we duck and cover? Do we aggressively rail against or do we faithfully put ourselves under the authority of scripture with the leading of the Holy Spirit and say, God, what have you set and what are you saying and how do we leave through this?
And so I love that we're going to go here and that Eric's going to leave us through that this weekend. And just, I mean, you heard it. You're going to hear it if you're listening to this on Friday, the posture of Eric's message, man, grace and compassion and all of these things is so big. And then this isn't some ethereal conversation that this is a present conversation with real implications, with people that we know, that we love, family members.
And this isn't about us wanting to dismiss a struggle or use derogatory language for heaven forever, but this is about honoring people in the image of God and having the conversation in a way that's filled with grace, compassion, and truth at the same time. So what do you think, as we look at this big, big topic, what things would you think, man, as a leader, they might have a little bit of anxiety stepping into this. How can we even put them at ease for the conversation they're going to have this week after this message? Yeah, I think just an encouragement is you don't have to have all the answers.
That's right. So much of discipleship is posture. It's having the right posture. And this topic, I don't even like using that word or issue, but the reality is there's people on the other side.
I mean, JT, I was talking to a really wonderful dad yesterday, and he was sharing with me that his oldest child is wrestling the gender dysphoria in that moment. I'm not busting out. So there's this term here by this, like that's not what's happening. I'm just listening.
I'm nodding along. And so I think the invitation, if you're a left-ropear and you're feeling anxious and how do I step into your posture of wanting to step into this with a form of kindness, but also form of clarity and truth, you're invited to both at the same time. So you can breathe, you can relax, it's going to be great. That's great.
And you're really answering a lean in question right here, right? Because we're coming at it straight, you're right away from lean in question of, I mean, how does this conversation, how have you been impacted by it? Where have you seen it, how have you experienced it, what impact has it had in your life and the life of others? And I love the posture that you're leading us through and even have a respond to that.
That this is an leaning question where we begin to, you know, weaponize and attack and rail against, but we're reminding ourselves that it's not an out there issue. That's the present issue with the real people that we know and that we see and that we love. And it's the real present issue even for me. I mean, I got four young kids, I'm having conversations, I'm asking them questions, trying to see what they're hearing from school when we turn on Disney movies.
It's here, when you turn on TikTok, when you turn on, right? It's the conversation is here. That's right. That's right.
So we want to help you navigate it well in your conversation then. So as we move in from the lean in, I think this is helpful to revisit. This is kind of a different lean in question. Usually we go straight into the scripture and pull observations, but we want to review these key terms that Eric defined throughout the message because these terms are not always defined the same way.
So when we say sex, what do we mean by that? Well, we mean male, male and female. We mean the reference to the chromosome is the internal reproductive anatomy. That's what we talk about.
And then gender identity. We want to define this. What are we, what are we, what's the common language that we're using here? When we talk about that, we're talking about a person's self perception of whether they're male or female, masculine or feminine.
So sex is more physical. It's physical. Yes, gender identity is psychological. Right.
So what happens in mind? Right. So the gender dysphoria is then when those things seem to be misaligned between what biologically is happening and what we may think in our thinking or process. We feel.
That's right. Now we feel right. And then transgender, how did Eric define that for us in the message? Yeah, it's an umbrella term for the different kinds of experiences of gender identity that don't naturally align or doesn't feel normative with our physical biological sex.
Right. Right. And so then defining those terms are really important because it sets up how we have the rest of the conversation. So then we look at a couple of key passages that Eric pointed us to.
And of course we got to start with the creation narrative of Genesis 1. Look at that 26. I'll read it quickly for us here. Then God said, let us make man in our own image according to our likeness.
They will rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock, the whole earth, and the creatures that crawl on earth. So God created man in his own image. He created him in the image of God. He created them male and female.
So why is that important passage for us to look at? What stands out to you? What do we learn about humanity from that passage? Yeah, it's such a...
I'm in all every time I read it John. And I've read it many, many times. You know, our bodies are not an afterthought. It's profound that the first time the image of God, that phrase is used in the Bible, it's in relation to that he created the male and female.
Right. So it's not just intelligent design. It's divine imaging on us. And so, man, it just says so much about who we are, our bodies matter to God.
Yeah. Yeah, and we have a very high view, it's very high view. Not just our bodies, but the whole of who we are. Right.
And part of what has led to maybe the discussion around the gender identity and gender dysphoria, is kind of this framework which I know you've read in Nancy Curie's book, Love Thy Body. I'm just going to talk about that a little bit. Do you want to walk us through just a bit of the personhood theory of how that's laid out of this dualism between, you know, the separation between a person and the separation between our bodies and how Eric walked us through that a little bit. It's important, I think, for us to catch that of the framework of which a lot of this movement is based on.
Yeah. So I think going back to anthropology, right? Everyone has an opinion on what does a human being? So Pearson, brilliant book Love Thy Body, highly recommend it.
You can get on on Amazon, I have not worked for Nancy Curie's and so I don't get any credit for it. But essentially the culture is saying that there's a separation between, on the one hand, there's like this person, right? There's this moral legal scanning. And then there's the body.
The body is almost like a shell of the person. It's expendable. It's just biological. It's just an organism.
It doesn't matter. And so there's a separation. There's who we really are. And then there's kind of this body thing that we can do whatever we want with.
Right. That's the culture. Right. And so then if you're thinking is misaligned from your body, then I think in general the encouragement has been able to change your body to match your thinking.
That's right. And then that's where dysphoria comes through. And what we discovered is actually there's a different way to look at that, right? And it's through this passage that we're going to read down Romans 12, which is a key point of the message, Romans 12, 1 to 2.
It says, therefore brothers and sisters and view of the mercies of God, I urge you to present your bodies as a living sacrifice. Holy and pleasing to God. This is your true act of worship. And then do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind so that you might discern what is good, pleasing and the perfect will of God.
So just even from that, what do you notice, the differences between the personhood, theory and the separation? It's really this neo-nosticism, right? And then what is being taught through the passage? Yes.
I think while I want to speak about other people's views in the most honoring way. So I think what the culture has right is that there is a distinction between the body and whatever this person's soul thing is. However, I think the biblical view is that while they may be distinct, they're deeply interwoven and connected. In fact, the one whole being, one whole person is their mind, their soul and their body until they're intricately connected together, which means the mind can be renewed as we read this passage, right?
So if the culture says, hey, you can keep your mind, think the way that you want the change of body, the invitation of the scriptures is no, no, no. Let's change our minds. Let's renew our minds. And the Lord can do that.
The spirit can do that through his word. That can happen instead of changing our bodies. Well, we just say to somebody who might respond, well, that actually doesn't seem kind. You know, to have somebody go through that process when they feel the real struggle, the real disconnect.
It seems like a consequence of a fallen and broken world. And so why would we not allow somebody maybe just to lean in and accept that consequence versus struggle through and go through the process of, man, having your mind be renewed, thinking about who God is, your identity, the image of God to impact your body. That's a difficult process. What would you say to somebody who's like, man, yeah, but I'm trying and it's not working.
Or this person that I know and love is trying and it's not working, is it worth it? How would you encourage somebody to be even pastorally on that standpoint? Yeah, that's so tough. If you've heard the sermon already, Eric's done an amazing job laying out certain implications.
I think even like, you know, adolescent teens, like 70% of those who do not go through a transition surgery, they end up being glad that they did not go through with it. So as an example, but I think the pastoral invitation I would give is, I wrestle with that. Every Christian, like every follower of Jesus feels like we are at war between our minds and our bodies, right? Hall talks about this in Romans 7 that there's a war between, hey, this is what I think, this is what my body, this is how I feel.
There are married individuals who sometimes emotionally feel like I should be with that specific partner, but no one would think that it is cruel to invite this person into this person to say to godliness and holiness and to step into God's design because we believe that God knows that. And so, yes, and so I think a lot of this plays out, John, maybe we're jumping ahead to some of your occasions. We're actually walking through it naturally to look out and to lean in questions. This is great.
Yeah, but I think the natural, most of these things are going to play out in a relationship, in conversation. And so if we feel nervous and anxious about what do I say, what do I say, that's because we're assuming that we're standing on a stage. Like Eric is doing this weekend and doing that. But a lot of these conversations, it may happen in a small group, it may happen in our life group or someone may come to us afterwards and we may need to have a side conversation.
And that's going to be a completely different dynamic. That's right. Yeah, the person dictates kind of how you navigate. It doesn't dictate the truth of the response, but it does through discernment dictate how you deliver and handle and sit through the response.
And so leaders, that's what you do. You are in incredible relationships with people that you are helping to shepherd and grow as you are growing yourself, as you're creating this environment for a discipleship. And again, we want you to feel equipped through this series. I love to see what you said earlier that you don't have to have all the answers to everything.
But rely upon the truth of the scriptures, rely upon some of the great resources that we have available to you as well. Eric makes references to some of the books that he's used for as a part of the research. Listen to that if I had more time podcasts, listen back to the special episode on group dynamics. We did with Luan, our care pastor in Dallas and how to navigate impactful conversations in your groups.
There's lots of different resources for you, but again, these resources aren't meant to fill you up with ammunition. This is meant to equip you to shepherd and care and love for people well. See anything else you might want to add before we close out this week? Yeah, I may have alluded to it, but I just want to double click on it really quickly.
You know, life would be there. I just want to encourage you that as you step into the conversations, it may feel really truth heavy. Again, your posture will be super important and it may feel truth heavy. Now, if you know someone in the group who is experiencing gender dysphoria or a parent who is wrestling through something, this is where you want to be really mindful of maybe the relational dynamic in the group.
You know, some groups, they're able to like hash it out together and it becomes this beautiful, redemptive moment. But there may be another lecture where there was a recent merger between two life groups and there's people who don't really know each other that well. And so that's where you've got to be able to discern and see how much somebody is willing to share. Don't invite them to overshare and then they'll regret it afterwards.
Instead, know when you can round off a question or a conversation. And then later on, if you want to personally reach out to that person, I just want to invite you to wisdom and discern it and to be really tactile in that. That's great, man. Thank you for that.
That's a really great word. Amazing. Steve, thanks for your time. I appreciate everything that you've done.
Cheers, John. Leaders, again, we're in it with you. We're four. You were praying for you.
We believe we've got to do great things and in through your groups. We'll see you guys next week. Go Warriors. Easy.