Welcome to the Mariners Church Life Group Leader podcast. This weekly conversation is designed to equip and resource youth to build a healthy life group community that studies God's word, practices spiritual rhythms, and changes the world together. Welcome Life Group leaders to the sixth and final week of On the Table looking at our series at questions that often confront Christianity. I love the question that we're going to be looking at today, the path of deconstruction.
What do I do with my doubts? This is going to be a really helpful conversation in our life groups and of course a very equipping message this weekend from America Cross All of Our Congregations. I'm not here alone, fear not. I've got our Disupster Pastor down at Oceanside, Mr.
Mjoki hanging out with us today. Maybe you should fear. Maybe you should fear. I don't know.
Maybe not. But hello from San Diego County. That's what I'm talking about North San Diego. North San Diego.
North San Diego. Do people make that distinction down there? Is that what I think? Oh, yeah.
It's a little county. I've never lived down there, but I've been in Southern California enough to know that you need to identify which part of San Diego County you're in. Yeah, but now it's confusing because now in Orange County, you also have a North County. So which one are we talking about?
Yeah, I hear that one as much. Really? It's a little more like South County. Okay.
South County. Interesting. Like the Chicago southwards. I could be told it wrong.
Okay. Hey, before we jump in and see the questions and a little bit over here with the sermon, just a couple of things. Program notes for you. Last week we had Gloria on here and we during the message we looked at justice.
What does justice mean? How does it define and how do we outwork it? And so I hope that you're doing what we did in our life group last week. We looked at all the serve opportunities and we've got our schedule ready to go.
We're going to the campaign. We're doing the military serve barbecue down there. That's amazing. That's so fun.
Yeah. That's so fun. Can't wait to do that. So life groups, I want to encourage you if you haven't already signed up for your group to serve all together with a local outreach opportunity.
Get it. Yeah. And then finally, this weekend here from your Irvine, at least after our 1130 service, I'm hosting a workshop called Douting My Doubts with some other members of our community. Some of you may know Susan Lam, she's a key part of our church and she's a professor.
Richard Park is also a local local professor and some other members of our team to do a panel workshop discussion on on doubts. All of them have like many of us have a unique story attached to their growing through doubts and they're going to share that and we're going to have some time for interaction, learning together, ask some questions. So right after 1130 service of the upper room, we would love to see you there. And if you're thinking, it's Super Bowl Sunday.
Guess what? I am fully aware because I happen to be ginormous. I'm not the most important thing about me, ginormous and niner fan. And so I'll be home watching that too.
But we're going to be down by two o'clock. So from about 1245 to two and you can get on and hopefully watch the Niners be the Chiefs this weekend, although I am doubting myself on that one to be honest with you. Pretty can show up really pretty. Yeah.
We'll see what's going to happen. We're not going to talk about the message. Why don't we jump on in and jump on into it, man? Let's start with Alina.
Alina is a good place to start. We'll work our way through the interactive with the message through the question. So describe a time when you've changed your mind about something, maybe we should ask her why staff. Or there's a secondary question.
That's something you grew up thinking that was normal but you later found out was not normal. You can go all kinds of different places. Yeah. And the nature of our whole society right now changes so quickly.
I go through changes on such a regular basis. But I can count on my hand how many times I've chosen to change my style. Meaning like it's a 16, I made a decision. When I got to college, I made a decision.
And then I got to be in a real adult job out of my parents own. That's a good enough. But yes, made a decision. And each of those times a significant change that happened to me because I get to think a lot of surfy things.
And the music will style and choice. Yeah. I don't like country music. Oh, well, actually, this isn't that bad.
I still don't like country music. But I might be a little bit more familiar with this kind of genre of country music. Like food choices and eating more diverse food and loving Thai food and those kinds of things. Like maybe didn't grow up eating.
I was that kid like after church on Sunday with my parents. It was so bad. We would go to the Chinese restaurant and we would demand to like have McDonald's. Stop.
I know that's so bad. It's not such good food. Especially given where we grew up in the barrier where there's so many great Chinese like down here. It's like, what were we thinking?
What were we thinking? So we don't make that same mistake with our kids. But it's so funny, right? Like how we can almost be tunnel vision on our experiences, our preferences and our backgrounds.
And we find that actually there's room for growth and we should be afraid of growth and growing and developing. And part of growth is we're going to look at today is like an earnest investigation about what we believe, how we believe it and why we believe it. That's an normative process of what it means to grow. It's following Jesus is growing through our deaths.
I think there's even times where you think about you're working on a project and you're trying to figure out how to get there. And the best way to get there is by asking questions about what you're trying to achieve. Yeah. And by answering those questions by researching around it, it usually leads you to the best result of the project.
And I think that's how we have to look at our faith a lot of times. It's like we ask the right questions along the way, but also go to the right sources to get your answers or guidance. Right. And it often leads you to a stronger people's faith.
That's it. We should be afraid of that. It's when we're not pressing in or when we feel like ashamed or not allowed to voice that. Right.
Is when we often detach from community, we hide and guilt and shame, we build an identity around our doubts. I think we're the only people that have it. And sometimes there's environments where people are probably ashamed for their doubts. So we're not in that space.
Yeah. We're not in that space. But to voice that and then you find commonality with other people and then you also find common growth really good. Well, we're going to interact with the passage here and then we'll make some references into the sermon that this is the anchor passage that Eric teaches from this weekend.
It's a famous path. I mean, they're all famous. It's a great passage. It's a famously often confused passage.
It's an interesting one to try to understand. So we're going to read it. This is John. John's gospel, John chapter six, 60 through 70, some context here.
Jesus is interacting with his disciples. I think this follows after the feeding of the five thousand and other miracle works that he's done. And so there's a crowd that's following him and curious about who he is. And so he's talking to them and he's also talking to the disciples.
He says this. When many of his disciples heard this and this is following the feeding of the multitude of bread about what's the phrase that he says, you've got to eat my body and drink every blood blood. He's like, whoa, I didn't sign up for this. I was eating that in a literal sense.
No. What is he needing? He's meeting. I've fed them physically.
I do the feeding of the multitude of the fish and the loaves and all that. But also you need to feed on me like spiritually. It's not just a transactional thing. But let me, my body, my presence become your nourishment.
The thing that fuels your life. Like receive, receive, receive. Not just the stuff I do, but receive, receive me. So he says this.
After the disciples heard it, he says, teaching is hard. Who can accept it? Jesus knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, ask them, does this offend you? I love that.
So first we're going to question, right? And how you hear that is important. Is it just like, does this offend you? Like, get yourself together.
You know, that's this thing. You're all in the mouth. Then what if you were to observe the son of man ascending to where he was before it? The spirit is the one who gives life.
The flesh doesn't help at all. The words I have spoken to you are of spirit and of life. But there are some among you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning those who did not believe in the one who would betray him.
Who's the one that we're talking about there? Judas. We got it right. It's Judas.
That's right. He said, this is why I told you that no one could come to me unless it is granted to him by the Father. The verse 66, from that moment, many of his disciples turned back and no longer accompanied him. So Jesus said to the 12th, the 12th, you don't want to go away to you.
Simon Peter answered, Lord, to whom will he go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and we know that you are the Holy One of God. Jesus replied to them, didn't I choose you the 12th?
That one of you speaking of Judas again is a devil. Okay. What's going on in this passage? Why do you think teaching from this passage when we come to a conversation about deconstruction and doubts?
What are things that we can claim from this passage? What's important for us here? Yeah, I think the first thing is to understand Jesus' posture. You picked up on earlier is that our Lord or Savior, our God is not afraid to ask questions for us to ask questions of him.
I think the second thing is to really be aware that the message of the gospel is something that God reveals as somebody dives into and fills the Spirit, calling to them. And that's what the word says. The Spirit has to reveal this to you. And so if somebody is not tuned to the Spirit or is pushing it out, you can't even believe on your own.
That's a gift of grace that's given to you. And God was to bestow that gift. I believe to everyone. But the fact that you're receiving that gift is another thing.
And then the final part is that we did have somebody within the fold that was struggling in Judas. And to see that, yeah, that he was there, he was with it. And Jesus knew obviously where Judas was going to go, but the outcome was going to be. But he was still a part of following Jesus.
So there are some that will follow Jesus that will depart completely depart like Judas did. And there's others here. Peter, Peter's story, Peter the denier is restored. Jesus says on your confession, Peter, that's unbelievable.
Somebody who had significant doubts and publicly talks about them. Jesus restores him. So there's a difference there is that there between Peter who's wrestling through his doubts and versus Judas who uses Jesus for his own agenda and totally betrays him and walks away on his own. And in the message, I want to hit on these categories that Eric walks us through because actually you can see these categories all through this passage.
And I think it's just really, I love this. Same, I've heard a lot of different conversations on deconstruction and doubt, but I think these categories that Eric walks us through, really, really helpful. And I want to encourage you in your life groups, revisit these, write these down, get the definitions and then have a conversation about these different categories. He says, basically, everyone who uses the word deconstruction is not using that word in the same way.
deconstruction has an original meaning and an academic context as he walks through the message. And it's a buzz word, right? We hear that all the time. Like, how are you doing?
I'm just kind of deconstructing. What do we mean by that? Totally. So, I think that's the first category that he gives us here, the first one, disbelieving, not yet placing one's faith in Jesus.
And you could say that in this situation, throughout the Gospels, often that's the crowd. We don't really know what he is. We're just kind of following, but we heard he's a mill worker that does some stuff and we'll see what he's going to do. But I'm not quite there.
And you're off to the crowds that draw near and they draw near and they draw near and they draw with it. They see what he does and then they hear the message and they're like, ah, I don't know. Then there's a departing, the departing or the deconstruction, deconstructing those that are leaving Christ or the faith once delivered from all, that there is a space where you are no longer believing the foundational truths of Orthodox Christianity. Not to say that you don't, you're not wrestling the doubts with him, but where you've completely rejected them.
Yeah. I'm not following. I want to be there. I want to care about the community.
Right. And departing. Thirdly, doubting wrestling intellectually with aspects of what you believe. Fourthly, disentangling, separating unbiblical beliefs from your faith.
So things that could be influenced by culture where you grew up. Maybe even a specific kind of church that you were in that had maybe an unhealthy emphasis on things that weren't correct, sound biblical teachings, separating unbiblical beliefs. Even disenculturating, separating cultural expressions from your faith that are just maybe rooted in a particular culture or region. So I think these are really helpful categories.
I think you want to say on these different categories here. Yeah, it's interesting because I see the bottom, the last three categories, the doubting, the disentangling, the disenculturating. I could see some of those things happening in my life, or in the life of my friends, pretty significantly. There was a time when I was growing up, I was in college and I had a, somebody told me God said this and I said, okay, I think God is saying that to us both.
And a few months later, they said, nope, I don't think God is saying that anymore. I was stuck holding whatever we were working on going, are we not hearing from the same God? And then that turned me into saying doubting that God can speak the same to everyone. Is that a real true God that we are following?
So that doubt entered there and I wrestled. I actually got pretty angry. But then God spoke to me in the question through very many occurrences where like, no, when two people are really aligned with who he is and what he desires. And then that becomes our desires and we're functioning from there.
And that's where God really speaks from. He doesn't speak from our desires. He speaks from his will. And so that changed my mind, but I had to go through that doubting journey.
And on the flip side, it's inculcerating. You ever gone on a mission trip to a foreign country and experienced church there where they have very few resources, no lights, no sound, but the worship seems more, I think about Haiti, two-hour worship service and you're sitting there going like, is this what heaven is going to be like? Because if it is, I'm all in and then coming back and realizing that there's aspects in our own worship that need to be removed from the concert or the show aspect of it. That's the disinculcerating.
I think a lot of people that go to mission trips end up going through. But those two things did not separate me from following Jesus and pursuing him deeper. Actually, we had me to ask more questions. How can I lean into Jesus more?
Not further away. That's really good. And then you see that within this passage, right? Again, the crowds would be those departing disbelieving.
And then you see Peter is somebody who's disentangling his faith from certain aspects of his culture, tradition, and trying to now understand and believe that, okay, Jesus is the Messiah. We put our faith in him, the implications of that and disenculturating with that as well, disentangling his certain beliefs too. But I love what you're saying, the posture of these stuff with Jesus. So there's something that we can learn to that.
Like when he says, where else can I go? You hold the words of life. It's like, well, I'm still relentlessly holding on to who Jesus is. His message is presence in my life.
And I'm doubting towards him versus doubting away from him. And I think that's, we see that a lot with doubt where it drives people away and isolation because of fear of shame or maybe they're overwhelmed with it. And then that's where, you know, the enemy really have a foothold, right? Yes, when we step out in those kinds of things.
Yeah. Okay. Let's move along here to the lookout section. So interact with the passage, interact with it through the lens of those different categories that are defined through the sermon.
And then we get to the lookout. And the question is here, do you know someone who is currently departing or deconstructing or disentangling? What does their process look like? What might Jesus want to ask them, speak to them or offer to them in their process?
Really good questions. If you're going to frame it in a different way, you could say, yeah, somebody in your life where you've seen has gone through a process of wrestling through doubts or deconstruction. What does that look like? What would your word and encouragement be to that person as they go through that?
Or you could even look out and make it personal for you in your maybe season of that. What was helpful for you from us? What did you learn from others? How did you guide others in that?
Anything you want to recommend as leaders navigate that question? Yeah, I would even consider if you have your own journey to share in there. But also notice that the way that this question is framed and how you manage this part of the conversation either creates a safe space where people going down the line, they go, okay, we're creating a space where we recognize that people are going through this and it's okay and if they do it in this room, it's okay. Or if it becomes one of those removal validation of somebody's process and it feels like it's tense, then it could really quickly pull somebody into that.
Well, I'm doubting, but I'm going to hide now because in this room, we're not open to engaging that kind of conversation. So, I would encourage you to really think about the atmosphere as you enter this portion of the conversation because it is, it might get a little personal. Yeah. And you want to leave that safe space where people feel comfortable to ask those questions.
Yeah. And I want my group to be personal, not just telling stories that I be here, but like, yeah, because when somebody retreats in that space, it's really easy for them to get into that. Well, I'm just going to depart because they're removing themselves from the community of people who can help them wrestle with that question. Yeah.
And I tell you, in my own life, the way that others have treated me through that and how I've been on the other giving end of treating others through that is it's often not been that, and we should have a reason for the faith that we believe and be able to defend it and have really thoughtful answers to the questions that people ask that all day long. We should have that. One of the reasons people do walk away is because they can be an environment. Yeah.
My questions are welcome, but I didn't get any answers. That's equally very unhelpful. Yeah. But it's in the context of the relationship and having the sermon and then that process because it can be really powerful with someone to say, man, that is a great question and I know for me that's been really helpful in some of this, I had that question and I haven't got the answer to that question, but why don't we look at it together?
Let's examine the scriptures. Let's read the book together. Right. Versus a, oh, wow.
I can't believe you didn't get that thing figured out by now. Hey, why don't you go figure that out yourself? And then let me know. It's like, no, let me get in it with you.
to ship around it. Grace to the relationship. Totally. Yeah.
Awesome. Then you go into the look at the look in. And here we look at three of the five categories. Again, doubting, resting intellectually with aspects of what you believe, disentangling, separating unbiblical beliefs from your faith and disenculturating, separating cultural expressions from your faith.
And then this is where you want to ask. Okay, great. In these different areas, where have you been challenged or experienced growth in these areas? What would it look like?
Or what did it look like for you to keep Jesus as your foundation as you hold on to him and wrestle through those current questions? So when you look at those three different categories of doubting, disentangling, disenculturating, where have you experienced growth? Where have you been challenged? And of course, you have this is where you're going to get into the real, the real talk of it, where you currently at currently out with it.
Yeah. And we want to hold those things with such graciousness and kindness and never overreacting to people's doubt. Yeah. And to show them that then there are there are orthodox ways to think about many of the questions that we would bring into the conversation.
I mean, I think about the question that came up and it always ends up my reader group. It came up again in my reader group about Genesis one to three, how do we read and understand it interpret? Genesis. Yeah.
And some may have grown up in a space where it was maybe only one, one way, there was only one single interpretation about that. And you come to understand that actually there's an orthodox way to think about Genesis and creation as the tall as you how and when Jesus is going to come back. Yeah. There are orthodox very ways to think about that.
And I think that often that could be a great place for people to understand. Okay. There may not be a single dogmatic way to think about certain issues. We would put in level three, level two issues.
Yeah. And that there's a robust way that we can think about those things. Yeah. Yeah.
What would you say on these three areas, maybe learning that you've you've had where you want to encourage people? Yeah. I think the framework that I use in my mind was to think about my faith as a house. And to really look and say, what is the foundation that cannot be moved?
Yeah. A really great house has a very solid foundation. And regardless of any questions you have about, you know, a floorboard that creaks or whatever, the foundation is solid. And so really helping people set their ground, the foundation on Jesus is Lord, you know, the Trinity, the things that are just, you these are the tenants of what it means to believe in Jesus and right.
But then look at the rest of the house. And if somebody's going like, I don't know about this room right now, the question is, Hey, what do you still believe about Jesus? Right. Can you build from the foundation up and not help them take a hammer to the cornerstone that is who Jesus is you know, and those that returning to the foundation often helps me at least get through some of these big questions, not escaping them or pushing them back.
But saying, I can answer these questions with the foundation in mind. This right. Yeah. Yeah.
I lean into Jesus out away from Jesus in the community in that, you know, as Eric says, in his message, Jesus is an idea to deconstruct is a person to enjoy. Yeah. So just a beautiful presence. Yeah.
You know, I often think about, um, as a Matthew 28, um, uh, after Jesus resurrected, and he's about to ascend to the father. And of course, we know the great commission, who therefore make disciples baptizing them to name a Jesus, teach them to obey everything that commanded to you. But we often miss what happens right before that. And Jesus appears to now the 11 disciples.
Yeah. We're talking about the resurrected Jesus. Yeah. Like he's embodied form and resurrected for appearing to the 11 because Jesus, Judas, Judas has departed.
And what does it, what does it say? They let us all them. Some believe in some doubt. And some doubt.
And then the next thing it says is Jesus came near to them came near to them. And then he says, go there for go there for it. There's so much beauty in that. Like the resurrected Jesus, those that followed him or closest to him.
And they see him in some still doubt it. And what does Jesus do? It's the same thing he does with Thomas. You know, great.
Put your hands in my, for the scar. Yeah. It says he draws me draws near to them. Yeah.
And he doesn't like quantifying or qualify them. Okay. Doubours on the side. You know, the rest of you on this side, I'm going to show off to you guys that have got it all figured out in certainty.
Go. Yeah. Go there for no. He says to all of them, never discipling and following under him.
No, I'm practicing under Jesus. Even those that doubted. Go. Yeah.
That's crazy. And that's a beauty of the community that that Jesus is building by his believers is yeah, you don't have to be perfect. I don't have perfect theology. You don't have to have every single question answered.
It's the availability and the willingness to draw near and let him draw near that will change you and help you change others around you. Yeah. And just so, so if you have that, if you have that question still and you're wrestled with it, know that Jesus is still looking at you and say, you're my child. Totally.
And I think there's another thing about don't make your doubts like paralyzed. Yeah. Right. Like Jesus knows, go and be sent on mission and teach and disciple others because in doing so, like it's actually going to add vibrate to your faith and like stay on the front lines and be activated and see me move and work.
Even though you may not have everything figured out, it is actually going to embolden your faith even more. Yeah. There's just so much beauty in it. So, really rich conversation.
Get into it with your groups this week. Love the conversation here. Join us with Dining My Doub's workshop here at Irvine after 1130 service. Sign up for a serve opportunity.
Great things happen. And you'll get things for joining us. All the way from North County, San Diego. Always a pleasure.
All right, guys. Stay safe out in the rain. And we'll see you soon.