Welcome to the Mariners Church Life Group leader podcast. This week the conversation is designed to equip and resource youth to build a healthy life group community that studies God's word, practices spiritual rhythms, and changes the world together. Well, welcome to week six of our On the Table Sermon series, leader equipping podcast here to help you along in your group conversations with your life groups. This week I am John Thomas, aka Lon John, and here with my good friend again, Mr.
Dallas Viva. No, aka. Just Dallas. No, aka.
I'm always worried that I get your last name wrong. It is Viva. Viva. So live in the Viva, Viva.
That's great. We're going to ask you to stop right there. No, that's fantastic. Well, man, we're still loving these conversations.
And we're coming into actually the more than a half way point now in this sermon series. It's been some really, really good conversations. I know last week as Eric taught through just beautifully through what does God say about gender dysphoria and the transgender movement. We had so many great conversations with our leaders and person on the patio online.
Tell us what did you experience last week? What have you heard from some leaders and people that you are in relationship with? Yeah, I think there was a understanding of terms of, oh, I didn't know that's what this meant, which I think was beautiful. There's also, I know from my perspective, I walked away with understanding what does it mean to have 100% grace and 100% truth.
I thought Eric pastored and modeled that so, so well. My wife and I, all week, we still keep talking. We have our own life group. It doesn't count as a life group.
It's just the two of us. Just do it, just us. Most people just call that a relationship. I'm glad you call your marriage a life group.
I love that. That's right. Sorry, Kelly. But it's just been beautiful and to see how well our people have responded has been so beautiful.
So all of you to leaders. That's you guys leading our church. Well through your groups. Yeah, yeah, just a really thoughtful, you know, gospel rich conversation that we had this last weekend.
You know, I've said it a few times. Like even if you didn't agree with everything that was being said, I think you'd be really hard pressed to disagree with the how it was delivered and we saw that. We experienced that even from folks that are a part of the jubilant dysphoria conversation from their own personal experience and even some of those that have transitioned, we had some conversations on people online, right? And I mean, that's the hope here is that we could point to the truth of who Jesus is in a way that's invitational, but in the way that also just spells out the clarity of scripture.
And I love that Eric, man, he walked us through masterfully through scripture, but also the perspectives that were a clinical cultural that were even outside of scriptural references that I think brought a lot of perspective into the conversation. So we are greatly encouraged and leaders. I know that you're having these conversations this week and this week is going to be another one, but I think actually even more so. Dallas and I were just talking about this.
I think might even be a little bit more challenging in the practical every day. What is the culture that we live in in Southern California? Do you think that's true, Dallas? As we look at this header of what does God say about sex?
I think this one might be more offensive even to Christians. I think there's a lot that's going to be on the table. It's going to be a tough conversation, but it's a need a conversation. Right.
And so we're going to do our best to lead you through the sermon questions now, springboarding off of Eric's message this weekend. You'll notice the question starts off with a leading question. Sometimes those leading questions are a little bit lighter. Sometimes we're going straight for the meat of the topic.
But this week we're wanting to get you to think creatively about the conversation we're going to have. So the question here says this, what's one thing that you used to do that you believe was good for you, but that you learned was later bad for you. Do you think of anything else? Yeah, like diet soda, right?
Is that not good for you? I don't think it's good for you. Yeah, what's the ingredient in there? Asserting.
That's not good for you, right? Yeah. But it's a diet so you're like, oh, this is so much better. Yeah.
Yeah. No. It turned out not so much. Yeah.
I've only recently discovered that cinnamon does crunch cereal does not count as one of the five food groups. And that's also not good for you either. A little bit of a joke there. Yeah.
But what are we trying to achieve with that question? I think we need to get everybody talking. Like this is as much as you can as a leader. This is an all play.
This is a, hey, let's just go around the room and everybody say something. Let's just get everybody involved in the conversation. Right. That's right.
And getting us to have our thinking aligned with there are things around us and messages around us and cultural definitions and practices that are just so consuming that we sometimes don't even realize that we are integrating ourselves with that message. You know, there's that great, I think it's David Foster Wallace quote of a fish swimming next to another fish and the fish says to the fish, how's the water? And the other fish says, what's water? And what are the implications of that you can be so surrounded by a message and a narrative that you begin to be sort of naive to where that message is taking taking you.
Yeah, you're blinded. Right. And then what's offered in scripture is really, I mean, we use this word a counter cultural message, especially when it comes to sexuality. And so we're going to jump in straight from that lean in.
You're going to read a few anchor passages, which I'm Eric highlighted with a message. We're not going to read all those passages in detail, but it starts off in 1 Corinthians 6 and Paul is listing out a list of different sins and different activities, which he says will, it's a counter message to the kingdom of God. This is well, not an here at the kingdom of God if we're practicing these things. And you'll notice that there's about nine things that are listed there.
Three of them are directly related towards a sexual, ethnic and a sexual practice. And so you want to highlight those things as you look at that passage. And the question there is how do each of these sins that Paul describes go against God's plan for sex. And this is where it's really helpful to look back at the message.
I hope you're taking notes during the message so you can look at what Eric is highlighting as you leave through this first part of the passage. But I think there's some comfort to know that this isn't just a thing right now in 2023 in Southern California that this is throughout human history, that there is something different about the pool towards the idolatry of sex that we need to be aware of the cultural narrative of the conversation. That's good. Where do we go next?
Dallas? All these questions, just so you guys know, you're jumping right in with your group. It's one all play and then it's a turn and embrace the turn. Jump in with your group.
I don't know if it's, you know your group better than us. So is it acknowledging that with your group or hey, is your group ready to just jump in and go through these? Right. I do love the second question here.
How should Christian's actions regarding sexual immorality be different according to what is read in verse 11? How should they be different? Where does this ability to live this way come from? Well, you just read this what verse 11 says or do you have it I can read it here?
Yeah, I got it. Verse 11. And some of you used to be like this, but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God. Great.
So in the light of that verse, what do we learn about how our Christian actions and understanding should be different? What stands out to you from verse 11? We've been forgiven. Yeah.
And I can't help but think that there might be people in our group who are struggling to read that and believe that, to read that and believe that they've actually been forgiven. And there might be someone in your group who's struggling with that and you might be able to give them life this week. I'm saying, hey, you have been forgiven. They need to be here.
Hear that from you as a leader. And this could be a really great moment to shepherd the people in your group. Right. Yeah, I love that.
It's the point of we're living from forgiveness. We're not living to earn and chase down forgiveness. And even when we come up against, you know, perpetual attitudes and behaviors and practices around sexuality that are damaging of ourselves and others around us, that we can realize that man, we don't have to like white knuckle it and try to make things better in our own strength and our own power because here's the truth, right? If you could have done it, you would have done it by now that we are reliant upon not only the forgiveness of sins that comes through Jesus Christ, but also from the empowerment of the Holy Spirit for the sanctification process of working out salvation.
And so, but there has to be an acknowledgement of a disconnect of it. My behavior is not aligned with the life of abundance of the kingdom that's on offer for us, right? But yeah, our response is different. We have an awareness of brokenness, but we're not living to chase down the forgiveness of God.
We've been given out already. So it's then therefore, how do we live? We live as empowered. We live acknowledging our brokenness and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit to outwork his forgiveness in our lives.
And then we take a turn here. There's a picking up the passage in 1st Corinthians 6, 12, 14. Paul is citing some of their own sort of a counter arguments to why, hey, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what we do with our body.
Turns out there's nothing new under the sun, right? That's an argument that many would have today. I mean, he talks about the hookup culture and the living from experience to experience that the addition exchange of bodily fluids that what we do with our bodies is consequential. And that's something that was here in this passage, too.
Everything is permissible for me. We were just talking how you can go searching for the answers. And if you search hard enough, you'll find the answer you want to hear. And the answer you want to hear sometimes is not the one found in scripture.
So we can go to all these different places and it's like, I'm on Google. I'm on page 36. And I found this random person, you know, it's like you can find what you want. For everything is permissible for me.
You find your own personal truth. And that's kind of the argument that they made to justify their own behavior. And it's a trap that we've seen for thousands of years. And it's still prevalent in our culture today.
That's right. And then Paul kind of drops the hammers the right word. But with verse 15, he lays against that argument about it doesn't really matter what I do with my body is my own and my person is separate. It's just an exchange.
And he says, man, in verse 15, don't you know that your bodies are a part of Christ's body? That's a big statement. Should, so should I take part of Christ's body and make it a part of a prostitute? Wow.
I mean, tell us how you really feel up all. And he says, absolutely not. He says, do you not know that anyone that has joined with a prostitute is one body with her? First scripture says that the two will become one flesh.
I mean, he's calling back to Genesis that this isn't just an exchange of bodies that we're holistic in who we are and that there is something different in the union of sexual activity, which is why, you know, the only container that's big enough to handle the weight of that we believe is a loving committed relationship of marriage between a man and a woman. That actually the Christian view of sexuality is not a low view. It's a really, it's even a higher view that our culture, right? Yeah.
I think that sometimes misunderstood. How would you respond there? Yeah. And it's helping people understand like your body is a temple.
We hear that all the time, right? Oh, my body's a temple. We say it. I've said it so many times when you realize what was the purpose of the temple?
It was a place where the praise is like the high priest gave up the sacrifice, praises, sacrifices. It was the highest form of place of praise is inside the temple and your body is a temple housing the Holy Spirit. So it's beautiful. So having a high respect for our bodies that God views our bodies in such a high respect to that you are valuable.
Your body is valuable as well. And all the connections that spring from that do right, right, right. And so how we use our bodies matter, the matter is a point of our spiritual formation and development. And so our culture can have this view of it's just an exchange of bodily fluids or a falsely elevated view of idolatry where sex becomes a false idol to God or for guys like you and I who grew up in church where maybe the conversation wasn't always very helpful where it seemed as something you know, it's talking about.
You're so tight. It's gross. And you don't talk about it and you have to flip that switch all the sudden and then we see a lot of unhealthy ways that sexualities work out even within those relationships. And so like right sizing it for what it is, it's a gift.
It's a gift that meant to reflect the beauty of who God is in our relationship. And again, we can't overstate it. It's not a low view. It's an incredibly high view, one in such that the only container that can hold it is that union of marriage between a man and woman.
Not designed it. It's right. Like if everything God designed is good and then we made us very good. Right.
It's good. We'll look out into the look in. And this is a big question here. It's a second question to look in.
We're just going straight at it, right? And there's a likelihood that you already know you guys are in these groups. You've been in these groups for a while. You've gone through riddity together.
You have these conversations. But don't be surprised at what might come out here in this question. Are there any sexual attitudes or behaviors that need to change as a result of better understanding the gospel and its impact on your sexuality? That's kind of a long way of saying, hey, in light of this, this biblical understanding of what sex and sexuality is.
Are there practices right now or attitudes that are misaligned? What do you need to repent? We might even say. That could be a big turn in groups Dallas.
What would you say to group leaders that are navigating that question? No. Yeah. I'd say if someone in your group, what if someone in your group were to say something there?
Yeah. Say, hey, I'm living with my boyfriend. I'm living with my girlfriend. I'm addicted to porn.
I'm, you know, insert anything, anything there. What is your response? What is your body language there? How do we respond?
Do we just say, oh, well, since you're struggling, you can't be a part of this group. Like, that's not the response. It's how do you meet them with grace and truth. How do you come around them?
How do you love them? That's such a vulnerable moment that I believe the Holy Spirit's working on their heart, making them more like the sun, Jesus, the sun. So how do we respond to that? How do we have that conversation?
How do we, how do we lean that moment as a leader? Yeah. And I think even, even modeling as a leader how to respond to that question and recognizing like Paul said, you know, I'm chief amongst all sinners that every single one of us with honesty and integrity will have things that we can talk about around this question that none of us are immune from it. So as a leader, you kind of set a tone and pay and say, man, you know what?
I don't always get this thing right. Like there are where areas where I have used sex as exchange or areas maybe where I've used it, or I've weaponized it even within marriage as something that I withhold or give only when I want that there are ways that we've all have a misaligned view and practice around this. And so you want to create like a group as you already are, where people are vulnerable, they're honest to share and that they know that they're going to be met with grace, you know, forgiveness, acceptance, but also a grace and forgiveness of an acceptance that doesn't just leave it at that, right? To because that's part of our role as life group leaders is we hear things and then we also want it to lovingly respond with, you know, so I love that you shared that.
I commend you for sharing that. I love that. I love to talk more about what it's got called in YouTube now. What do you think your response is?
No, and that's a private conversation. That's not that's pulling someone to the side. I've been in that group where someone had that said, Hey, guys, I just need to confess this. And we took a moment.
We stopped. We listened. We affirmed. We prayed.
We literally got it out of our chairs. We laid hands. We prayed. And we had a one on one conversation afterwards.
Hey, let's go. Let's talk about this. You know, it's kind of hard. I'm just thinking about even groups that I've been in during rooted.
We've all been there in the incredible experience of strongholds when you confess something to people that you don't really even know extremely well yet. And there's that beautiful exchange of laying hands on people, replacing the lies of the enemy with the truth of God's word. And we really see it as a beautiful, uniting thing that happens within the group. And I just wonder, like, actually, do we still have that practice?
Is that a normal practice within our life groups? Yeah. Or is our reaction when somebody shares, man, you know what? I messed up.
I slept with my girlfriend. I shouldn't have done it. What is our reaction to that person? Is it?
We need to not be in the group for a bit or we need to put you on the side for a bit and not to say that there's not a time and a place for that. But man, we want to, as our role as shepherds, is to create an environment where people can feel safe and comfortable enough to share that struggle and be met with grace. And then also brought on a journey of, man, what does it look like to you to respond to outward forgiveness in your life? Sin is communal, but so is grace.
That's good. Sin is communal. It affects people. It doesn't just affect you.
It affects all those around you. And if a life group really is a place where you are sharing your life, like your group is going to be affected by that. But at the same time, a group is a place where people need to be encouraged to be loved, to have someone say, hey, I'm walking with you. I'm not going to let you walk this alone.
That's right. And you have the opportunity and it's only in a group. Nowhere else, nowhere else in your life you have something like this where people are going to walk through the dirt of life with you and chill grace and love and keep pulling. And praise God all the more that that person is in the group.
Yes, praise God. It has an environment of care and nurturing to help outwork that. Of course, there are times as leaders when we get into issues of division amongst groups and like an unrepentant or almost soliciting, aggressively soliciting a certain behavior or an activity that's clearly contrary to the scripture. That's something that we need to talk through and that's a coaching element for sure.
But for those that it's an awareness of a misaligned behavior with scripture and repenting and asking for help and help me guide and walk this through. Yeah, praise God that those people are in our groups. Because guess what? If we didn't have that, if we draw the lines on behavior and people's different things that they carry and we're waiting for everybody to be perfect in the group, we would have no groups because we don't exist.
That's not us. People don't exist. It may be a reminder of the incredible amount of humility it takes. That's right.
And there's times in my life where I have to pray this prayer is Lord, help me to see this person in your image. If there's ever a time where I haven't just an inkling of a thought that I'm greater than that person, where I'm on my high horse, I immediately go into this prayer of Lord help me see this person the same way you see them. Their blood covers them the same way it covers me that they are made in your image. Right.
And immediately I'm on this even playing field with them and it really, really helps me to show grace, to show love and then it brings me through an exercise and activity of, oh, Lord, look at all the ways you forgiven me and you didn't cast me out. It's good. Thank you. Yeah.
And the awareness of man, search me, know me, create a clean heart. What's that? What's that playing in my eye? You know, what's the thing that I'm carrying, you know, because it's unfortunate that there can be like a hyper acceptance, some some might use the term like a hyper grace, which I don't like that during because it's not grace once to find like this of anything goes.
So it doesn't really matter. You're already accepted and forgiven. So your behavior doesn't matter. Well, it's like actually, no, we're accepted and forgiven so that we can then like work out our salvation with your privilege shows that that's totally and there can't equally be like a hyper, hyper legalistic thing that says, man, until you got your stuff together and then you can't be in this room, you can't, you can't be hanging, you can't be hanging with us.
I'm so glad Jesus didn't do that. Oh, man, totally. I'd still be working for sure. You know, maybe you should have with you that maybe.
Yeah. So, but, I mean, really, we may never pray for you guys. It takes a lot of discernment and courage to handle these conversations and the different questions that are going to come up. But as always, you don't do it alone, right?
We have some resources to come alongside you, whether that's through our men's groups, like anchored guys, guys like us, our women's pastor is going to be leading out, a women's group centered around kind of sexual purity and the struggle around pornography, which is there not just with men, but with women that's called the round table. Yeah, February 24th, February 24th. And all these things are on the table resource page. So this would be a week certainly to make use of those and point people to the resources that are available.
You know, I also want to say, Dallas, as we close out this week, just thank you as a ministry leader. I look at the amount of groups that get attached to a ministry that I oversee and there is there's no way that I could shepherd and steward all these conversations. And the people in the ministry, they go to you as a life group leader. You are their person.
So thank you for helping us bear the weight of ministry and having these conversations. We literally could not do it without you. So we're so thankful for you as a life group leader. We're with you.
We appreciate you and we're here to support. That's right. Thanks, Dallas. And thank you, leaders.
Thank you so much for tuning in this week. And we'll see you next week for on the table service discussion.