Welcome to the Mariners Church Life Group leader podcast. This weekly conversation is designed to equip and resource youth to build a healthy life group community that studies God's word, practices spiritual rhythms, and changes the world together. I have open leaders, week seven of on table here at John, you are a collaborative pastor or a mayor in earth, or a divine. What's happened to Mr.
John? Hello, this is John, you're glad to be here. I'm feeling a lot better. My family has been through the cycle.
Nobody asked you on the planet. Go ahead. Yeah. Oh, hold on.
Let me just. Just hold on. Just hold on. Just hold on.
Just hold on. Just hold on. Yeah. Can't not recommend it enough.
It's been a good thing everybody. Running through something, but here we are all good. We're back at it and ready to jump into this conversation. This is your third cycle or second cycle through us with an on the table.
It would be my second cycle. Awesome. Yeah. And just tell me generally how the series has been manned or through.
You're hearing from your leaders there. Ever since I went through the first cycle, I realized how powerful these questions are. Because these are common questions that some people assume that the answer is there. Some people they're afraid to ask, but literally putting it on the table allows the discussion to flow, whether they're a new Christian or veteran Christians.
It's a great way to just reflect on topics that everyone cares about. Yeah. And I think this week, I mean the title, Halloween, yoga, rated our movies, et cetera, avoid or embrace. I'm really glad that we're looking at this question from a difficult perspective.
And I would imagine that in many life groups, this will be one that will bring up lots of different stories, lots of different opinions. I mean, people have all been raised differently and your context of your family really impacts that with you, you grew up in church, where you didn't grow up in church. I mean, if you didn't have a church back or anybody thinking like, what do you do? I'm talking about this.
But certainly in the church kind of background that I grew up in, this would be, yeah, this is a really relevant question. How do we think about these things? Do we avoid them? We embrace them.
I love that we're putting this on the table and hoping that's going to be a fruitful conversation for groups in groups this week. All right. Awesome. We just dive straight into it.
Let's do it. Okay. Let's look at our lean in question, helping you to break the ice to get your group talking around the bat. It says, what is one of your favorite holiday traditions either from your childhood or that you do today as an adult?
So get us to think about traditions. Yeah. I got first. I always loved Easter, of course, because of Jesus, but fully recommend.
As a kid, I look forward to the Easter egg hunt. And in the cultural context that I grew up in, it was a big deal to boil eggs and pass them out, like hard boiled eggs and pass them out, that great them and such. And so on Easter Sundays, it would smell like, you know, not rotten eggs, but eggs. Wonderful.
Yeah. And I remember there was a debate one time, one year, people were saying, hey, why Easter eggs? Why are we even having the kids, you know, to Easter eggs hunt? But as a kid, I just want to have fun.
So it was a tradition that people switched up and said, well, the egg represents the whole represents new life, I guess, and life. Yeah. It was kind of twisted in that way, but in a new way, I guess. Right.
Yeah, that's fun. And for us, lots of different traditions and stuff, but relevant to what we're talking about today, the topic of Halloween for at least how we grew up is church kid around it. And we were one of those churches that very much had the holiday night. You can come dressed up as a biblical character.
So we've got these crazy pictures of my mom dressing up as a shepherd, me and my little brother, as a sheep walk around. Everybody's got that, like, you know, the armor of God. And then you can buy at the Christian Halloween Halloween store and all those kinds of things that came alongside it. And it was actually, you know, it could make Pope fun.
There was like a very normalized experience for us growing up. And we didn't really know a whole lot different. It was a lot of fun. And of course, he used it as an outreach opportunity.
But yeah, man, I didn't go trick or treating until I was like a freshman in college with my now wife Lindy. It's like, what is this? What am I mistow on? What am I mistow on?
And so, yeah, to the point of, like, your family can impact how you engage or how you don't engage in some of these traditions. Yeah. Is it a real thing? Yeah.
And I'm glad this question is on the table because even growing up when those things came up, it wasn't talked about. It was just you just do what you always do. And everyone's kind of a silo on our family does this and another family does this. And Eric does a great job at just going through scenarios, different scenarios of how people approach these, how these traditions and different traditions.
But now it's, you know, how do we actually intentionally make sense of things? Really good. Awesome. Let's get to our passage.
I'm going to read from Romans 14, 1 through 6, and then on through 19, 2 verses 23. And the guiding question for you is from the passage, what do you observe to be the key guiding values on decisions that we make? So what do you learn about the values that inform the decisions that we make? Romans 14 from verse 1, it says, except anyone who is weak in the faith, but do not argue about disputed matters.
One person believes he may eat anything while one who is weak, eats only vegetables. There's a joke in there maybe about, I don't know, I'm not going to make it down. One who eats must not look down on the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat must not judge one who does, because God has accepted him. Who are you to be judged, to judge another's household servant?
He will support his own Lord and he stands or falls, and he will stand because the Lord is able to make him stand. One person judges one day to be more important than another day, someone else judges every day to be the same, but each one be fully convinced in his own mind. Whoever absorbs the day, observes it for the honor of the Lord, whoever eats, eats for the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, and whoever does not eat, it is for the Lord that he does not eat, and he gives thanks to God. For none of us live for himself, and no one dies for himself.
If we live, we live for the Lord, and if we die, we die for the Lord. If we live for it, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. I read a little bit more than I said I was going to, that's what I was going to say. 19 to 23.
So then let us pursue what promotes peace and what builds up one another. Do not tear down God's work because of food. Everything is clean, but it is wrong to make someone fall by what he eats. It is a good thing not to eat, mean, drink wine, or do anything that makes your brother or sister's devil.
Whatever you believe about these things, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves, but whoever doubts stands condemned. If he eats because he is eating not from his own faith, and everything, that is not from his own faith, it is just. Right.
So what do we learn here? What stands out is verse 6 where it keeps repeating for the Lord. In one sense, Apostle Paul is making it almost matter of fact. This is, of course, you would approach it in this way, but I think a lot of people, including myself, need to hear what seems obvious at first, but it is to discern in every moment what is for the Lord.
Instead of compartmentalizing and just staying there, how do I make sense of this with myself, between me and God, between me and others, and how the world perceives. And there are so many factors and nuances that it is a great opportunity for us to go to God with and have a conviction. Right. Yes, it is good.
And that conviction part is key. It is important for what you feel in front of the Lord is going to be wise for you, for your family to engage in. It is clear, obviously we are not talking about things that we have put in clear categories of the same way. Is there a way to engage in Halloween that is actually contrary to the Kundra Kingdom of Kingdom of Kingdom?
Yes, totally. But we are talking about these kind of these great areas. And so the passage clearly talks about being convinced in your own mind and at the same time being in kind. So being convinced and being kind and not seeing it as your own mission to convert other people to your side, pushing away people who disagree on secondary issues like you may.
Yeah. It reminds me of a missionary who planted churches in India and in their church and their fellowship hall. They had two separate food lines and one was a vegan food line and one was I guess a normal, not that vegan. Sure.
Yes, you know, it is not. Yes, yes, yes. Two separate food lines. And someone approached him and said, hey, in Christ, we could eat anything while you are splitting the church by doing so.
And his response was, no, these people, they grew up as part of their culture and diet. They don't have some faith conviction too as to why they only stick vegetables or vegan diet, but we want to provide that space for them. And so in that context, it made sense to be kind and provide a place where people wouldn't even think twice about it. Oh, this is my line that I'm used to culturally speaking.
Yeah. And then there's another line for others who eat differently. That's really good example. That's also the applications for us and how we relate to others.
Okay. Let me move to a look out question. And here in this question, we look at the framework that Eric helped us to think through when we look at kind of these secondary items issues. How do we think about them?
It says, in a sermon, Eric had three barrels of stage representing three categories of responses that we should consider as Christians with culture. Those three categories were avoid. So things that we should totally avoid, things that are contrary to what God would want for our life, things that actually we engage in them, we're being disobedient, we're engaging in that right. So the first category of boy, second things that we can appreciate.
So to the point of God's general revelation of his goodness and his kindness being displayed throughout life was a common grace component there. And things that we can adapt, things that we can take and make adjustments to. So how would you help us to think through that, John? Are there things that come up and you're thinking about those three different categories?
How do we think through that? And where have you seen the question here? Where have you seen parts of culturally Christians? Have you argued about these different things?
Where have those been around? Where have you seen that well? Where have you seen that in the parfool? Yeah.
I think what's interesting about this category system is it could apply to one thing or one thing could split up into three different categories. And so for one of them, for example, like Halloween, someone could adapt it in a way that, you know, Halloween night or career night and people you adapted, but just as you mentioned earlier, that same Halloween night, if done in a wrong way, it would categorize itself as a void. You know, even one subject, you can categorize in a different ways. And that just goes to show how nuanced these categories can be as much as it's black and white for some things that Eric mentioned, but I think it's to constantly be at the discernment level and have that spectrum of insight.
Yeah, I love that in that adaptive point, how Eric in the message, you talked a bit about kind of the origins of the Christmas tree. You know, the Christmas tree wasn't present in the major, until you spoil that for a moment. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, of course.
But he talks about how Martin Luther, the great internment reformer, is often accredited with kind of adapting the practice around the Christmas tree. The lights can represent the light of Christ that came into the world. Well, the Christmas tree itself was not in the origins of the nativity, but it's something that we can adopt and adapt and use and celebrate around. So it was lots of different examples of places in life where we could think through these things.
Great. Anything else to say maybe on that look out section? What are some ways Christians, some ways for Christians to actually appreciate culture while maintaining their convictions? I think kind of back to the Halloween thing.
So when we lived in LA for a while, we were one of only the other family on the block, actually did the church that we went to, and everybody else like the church program, what's the way it actually was like, you do what? How does that even work, right? But you know, as it is, right, kids of the same age, and man, we used to throw these epic sort of pre-game pre-trick or treat parties like right in front of our house. And we did the whole thing, get the music, get the spider webs, get the silly costumes, do the whole thing.
And for us, it really was, but we wanted to have fun with our neighbors, but it also was a point of creating mission conversations, so I'm sure you got things like that in your life, but it really became a part of the culture of our entire block. So much so that when we moved back to Orange County the first year, it was like, hey, can you come back and put this party for it? And they've tried to keep it going since we left, and because there's conversations that can happen when you're relationally engaged with folks. Now we could have been, sorry, we don't even have Halloween, and we actually look down on you if you do.
I'm not going to track it while Halloween's eating. While you're burning. Now what's that? That might be being convinced, but certainly not being, not being kind, right?
So, you know, these are opportunities for us to be brothers. Yeah, I mean, one word that stands out, what you mentioned is relationship. I mean, a lot of these, these buckets and categories and how we approach it really comes down to relationship. In another culture that I'm familiar with, drinking is a huge problem within that culture.
And so for the sake of relationship, that's something that naturally you could argue, well, but the Bible says that you could, but if you were kind, if you cared for a relationship with others and how they relate to Jesus, it wouldn't be a subject. You don't have to argue or do anything. In another culture, it's something that people just drink alcohol on a regular basis. In that context, it's different.
And I think, again, that goes to show the relational aspect of it. So, yeah, it's a great way to approach it, to categorize it. In one sense, it's like an art, I think. It's not just a black and white.
Here's the code. You better categorize it in the right way, but it comes down to what are you doing with it and how are you approaching it? Talk to me. Talk to me.
In the last time, Christmas, I was, let's say, quote unquote, forced to invite my entire school, my parents had these handouts. We turned it on these old printers. And it was invite to Jesus' birthday party. And so for Christmas, I would invite my school and in my small little cottage house— You committed to having a invitation?
We had like 30 kids just like bubbling out of their house. But it became a thing where people, whether they celebrate Christmas or not, we took that and adapted it and said, how can we be relational in this moment? I think that applies to anything that's wrong. I'm glad that you're saying that, too, because there could be a sense for guys like you and the church environment, the church world, that there's an overreaction to things.
My upbringing was so backwards. Hallelujah and I, crazy. What do you mean Christians can't listen to good music and bring it our movies? And I'm sure like you, so many friends that did grow up in that, and they've so much swung the other way, that they look at their upbringing as damaging the character of Ned Flanders and Ty totally out of touch.
And so look at us now. We're liberated. We have all this license. We can do whatever we want, basically.
And sadly, how many people have you seen that have taken that license and swung the other way? And before you know it, they're wrapped up in sin really. And so I would just encourage you to talk about your group, right? There's probably any people that might be your story.
And you might look at your quote unquote, ultra conservative upbringing and things like that. We were just backwards, like what were you thinking? But actually, even in my upbringing, I know that there was a, that didn't come from like trying to show us to be better. It actually did come from a really beautiful place of conviction and understanding God's holiness and understanding that we should be desperate and understanding that we're not going to influence our lives.
It matters. It matters. And of course, we're raising our kids maybe in a different way. I mean, look, I just took my oldest to a killer's concert in Las Vegas.
Okay? So like my parents are like, what? You've never even been there. But we do that in a way because there's a cultural thing that we're trying to create and understanding across the framework that we're trying to create about.
We can enjoy things while at the same time not being influenced by the ideologies that mean behind certain things, right? And so just a good word. Had the conversation about how you grew up, if you're a parent, like how are you doing things similar or different? Yeah.
You know, what does this work conversation look like? And share the wisdom in your group. That's good. Awesome, John.
All right. Anything else for us? I don't know. That's a reference to the conversation.
Yes, yes, yes. But yeah, I think it's a good reminder. So I'm glad this topic, this question was on the table this week. Yeah, awesome.
All right, guys. Well, look forward to your conversations this week. I'm going to catch you on your next time.