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In this broadcast I speak with Pity's Chan about her latest book, The Making of a Modern Outworld, Institutionalization and Legitimization of Gohua in Republic in Shanghai, published by Brill in 2017. The Making of a Modern Outworld investigates the production and consumption of Gohua on national painting in Shanghai between 1929 and the outbreak of the Second Sign of Japanese War in 1937. Defining the Outworld as sociologically constructed, Pity's Chan's systematically researched book focuses on collective practices of artists and art associations, periodicals, art colleges, exhibitions and the art market, all of which contributed to the institutionalization and legitimization of Gohua in Republic in Shanghai. Based on extensive primary source material, Chan lays bare the modus operandi of a modern art world in Republic in Shanghai during that period.
The book is thus an indispensable resource for anybody working in the field of 20th century Chinese painting, highlighting the changing hierarchies, networks and discursive practices that constituted Republic in Shanghai Gohua. Welcome to the show, Pity's. Thank you. Thank you.
And thanks a lot for telling us a little bit about yourself. I'm Pity-Chan. And currently, I'm an Assistant Professor of Cultural Management of the Chinese University of Hong Kong. Before I joined the Chinese University of Hong Kong, I work as an Assistant Professor of Cultural and Heritage Management at the City University of Hong Kong.
And in the late 90s, I also got a four-year curatorial experience with the Hong Kong Museum of Art, and my research interest center on the production and consumption of art in modern and contemporary So tell us how you can to write the making of a modern art world in Republican China. The book actually is developed from my PhD dissertation. And my interest in the Republican period actually is based on my archival research in Shanghai. When I was conducting archival research in Shanghai, I encountered a lot of primary materials, including magazine, newspapers and exhibition catalogs.
These materials had very different stories about the narrative of modern Chinese art. Firstly, we can see that from this material, there's lots of people involved in the production and consumption of art in Republic and period. And lots of this name are not actually mentioned in the standard art history book. Secondly, we can see that from this material is that dominance of Guo Hwa in the field.
And as we know from the standard narrative of Chinese art history, it will always mention that Guo Hwa was under attack. And however the material tells that Guo Hwa actually dominance in the art world, particularly like in the Metropolitan City, Shanghai. And lastly, the material also tells that a group of people, they call themselves, a community, or they are from the art world, actually exists in Shanghai. I'm quite interested to reconstruct the operational logic and also the practice, the discursive practice in this period, how the artists thought and how they determined their artistic style and how their artistic practices are constrained by social structure and also by different kind of factors.
And I hope that which can give a very different perspective for us to understand the republican art world. And the book has a considerably small time span covering the eight years between 1929 and 2019. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about why you chose these dates in particular and why they're so crucial for what are they doing in this book? I chose the 19th decade, approximately actually the 19th decades from the 1927 to the 1937, because this period is the golden period in the republican period.
Politically it is relatively stable after the consolidation of power from the nationalist government. And I set 1929 because I think sometimes the pre-diedization of art history is a little bit different from the political history. For instance, a lot of modern Chinese art, they set the Obian War as the beginning of a modern Chinese art, but we can tell that the war actually won't change the practice and won't change the taste. I set 1929 because in this year the nationalist government support the first national art exhibition, which was launched in Shanghai.
And according to the primary material, and we also can see that the committee member from the preparation of this exhibition are actually a lot of these members that come from the Shanghai art world. And I think this is quite a significant event because in Mark, and also show the official discourse on modern art. And from this exhibition we can see that the number of war, our number are the categories like oil-paintained or sculpture. So it also reviewed the aesthetic ideology and braids by the nationalist government.
So I think 1929 and after the late, since the late 1920s onward, a lot of Guo Hua artistic activity became poisonous in the Shanghai art world. So I set in 1929 at the beginning. And 1937, obviously, is because of the war, the sign of Japanese war. And the war actually generated a great impact on the Shanghai art world.
A lot of artistic activity stopped by the war. So as the book focused on artistic activity and the collective power of the art community from the war. So I think this short time period is a golden period for the development of Guo Hua. Okay, and the book is divided into three main chapters, plus introduction and conclusion.
So why don't we start out by setting the scene so to speak for our listeners, by talking about the three main groups of actors or agents who shaped the art world and the hierarchies within it. So you name the literati or the elao, the new merchants and the new interlegancia slash entrepreneurial class, if you will. Tell us more about how you define and divide these three groups and how they in turn shaped the art world. As I mentioned in previous questions, I find that there's a collective power in the Shanghai art world.
So I'm trying to find a framework to look at and analyze, to approach these, to address the question I wanted to answer. And I find that sociology approach quite important in this way. I particularly inspired by Becker, Howard Becker's concept of art world, because he mentioned that art from the production to the circulation and consumption actually involves a lot of agents and actors in the process. And Baudieu's idea is more sophisticated.
He talked about how in the artistic field and different actors and members are they actually in a conflictual position. They are competing for resources and they are competing for different positions. And artistic field is like the political field, is very hierarchical. Some member they possess more capitals on top of the hierarchy.
While the new member they need some support from the older generation. So I analyze the material, the primary material. I find that there are some famous members. Their name has been mentioned many times frequently in the press media.
So I tried to divide them into different groups. These actors are actually on top of the hierarchy because even they attend exhibition ceremony and opening these kind of attendance will be mentioned in newspaper. You can imagine they are very famous and also familiar to the readers newspaper readers. And I divided them into three groups because since the downfall of the Qing dynasty we know China transformed into a new society.
A new social structure was constructed. And the first group is the leader of the Yilao. They are those who lost their position after the downfall of the Qing dynasty. And they attracted to Shanghai because they haven't for the Yilao.
They accumulate a lot of cultural capital as well as economic capital. And their name has been mentioned many times in press media. And for instance, Zhang Darchan was well known for his relationship with Gen Zhi. And this Yilao, they are quite proud of their title.
So they mentioned that they are the Yilao. And of course they got the power to consecrate the new commerce, to ease the price lease for the new members and the younger generation. Another group is the new merchants. As we know in the late Qing dynasty and early republican period, commerce became a way to build a strong nation.
And wealth also became a very important capital to elevate one state as in the society. And this new merchants, they are for instance serve as a middleman between Chinese and office trade. And like Wang Yitin, he is a new merchant and he got multiple identity, merchant artists and he also a very prestigious member in the Shanghai art world. And this merchant, they apply some kind of commercial tech in the art world for instance organized exhibition for sale.
And also they got some power to consecrate the younger generation. And the last one is the new intellectuals and they are also the senior member in the art world. They got a degree from the previous civil examination, but you know, down for the Qing dynasty and they transformed themselves into a new Yili class. For instance, Yae-kun Shou, he got a degree from civil examination and he also served as a high official in the republican period for the nationalist government.
And I think the first chapter of the introduction is tried to give a clear framework about how I will discuss the questions and how to set the ground for the following discussions. Great, that kind of also answers a follow up question that I was wondering about, which is why about your sociological ideas about cultural capital and artistic fields and so on. We're so useful when looking at the institutionalization and legitimization of Guo Hua. So I think we'll move on.
And I was, you know, this is now the inevitable question that I suppose everybody was waiting for. We couldn't possibly do this interview and you couldn't have possibly written the book without addressing the tricky question of what Guo Hua actually is. So now, yeah, so basically let's talk about the definition, if you will, and I was wondering if you could say a few words on that. Guo Hua actually is quite a problematic term.
And according to the material we can see, Guo Hua is a new invention. In the early 20th or the 19th centuries, it's a term borrowed from Japan, actually referred to national painting. Before the introduction of Shihua, I don't think we need something to distinguish this category of art from other categories because Shuhua always dominant the art scene. But the introduction of different categories like sculpture, watercolor, oil painting to the Chinese art world.
And a new term was needed to refer to the traditional practice. The category usually executed with a brush and the traditional equipment and also on paper or seal. And so that's why I think when you have a new term, that means there's some new concept. So what is Guo Hua actually is the book's concern.
I want to know how they use different practice and different institution to construct the idea and give a concrete idea about what is Guo Hua. And Guo Hua actually later on developed into different term like a jungle Hua in the, after the 1949, they used jungle Hua instead of Guo Hua and Shihua type more Hua. And now we have a new term is the contemporary art. And so all this time very tricky and also problematic.
But what is interesting is that they laid a meaning attached to this term. To institutionalization as practice, you reveal an incredible detail how Guo Hua institutionalized by way of looking at three different practices. Organizing art societies, publishing art periodicals and establishing art colleges. Unfortunately, we won't have the time to discuss all three phenomena in great detail, but I would like you to talk a little bit about all of them, especially because you've amassed such an incredible amount of data.
As seen in the five appendices in your book. So the first one is on art societies established during the years 1929 to 1936. What struck you as significant or noteworthy if you will when you collected and evaluated all the data on art societies that were founded during these years. I said this as the first chapter because as I mentioned my interest is the production and consumption of art.
So I set three different chapters. And this chapter two is on the productions and how collective power was formed during this period. And I find that art society is a very powerful institution. It gather different talents and also different experts from all over the nation who settle in Shanghai.
And also our society is a very active actor in the art world. They organize exhibitions to showcase the art world. So that is the circulation of artwork. And also they publish the Seattle magazines.
This became a platform for artists to convey or to communicate with the public about the aesthetic they embrace. And a lot of these members from the art society are also the members who talk at the art college. And art college is an important institution for nurturing the new generation of artists in modern China. And this chapter focused on the production of art.
And the next chapter is on circulation. Exhibition became a very important channel for artists to showcase their artwork. And the chapter four is on consumption. So it's from production circulation to consumption.
And the data that I collected show that during this period roughly in 1929 to 1936, the number of society are society increased dramatically. And of course, a lot of these society are sort lived. And it suggests that there's a very severe competition in the art world. So it's like what Baudhurs say.
They're always in a conflictual situation and relation. And they compete for resources. And they compete for position. And so this is one of the perspectives I want to add to our understanding of modern Chinese art.
It shows that the transformation of art or artistic practice is not only affected by introduction of Western art or the revival or the preservation of Chinese culture. But also conditioned by the competition between different actors in the same art world. For competition, each art society, they will define their position. They will not take the same stand as the artist.
So in this chapter, I focus on two important art society, the Bean Society and the Chinese painting society. And we can see that they positioned themselves different from those societies established in the early 20th century, which focus on preservation of Chinese accents. Neither, they also, this society also rejects to in alignment with the reformers who promote Westernization of Chinese art. So they choose a different position and they position themselves as new Chinese artists.
And they promoted their aesthetic as they preserve Chinese art. But at the same time, they look at different culture. And also, they will use a new attitude toward the practice of Guo Hua. In the past, artists always expressed, always regarded the practicing of Guo Hua or painting as a kind of entertainment or leisure.
But from this two associations, we can see that they positioned themselves as a professional painter. They took Guo Hua or the practice of Guo Hua seriously and liked a new academic discipline. So I think these chapters discuss about the art society and how the society publish period articles and also the members of this society talk at the art college. And this is kind of institutionalization, how to what is Guo Hua and it is through this practice, they offer and they institutionalize the ideas of Guo Hua.
And how closely these three were related becomes really very clear, I thought, with this one example of the B society, which I found particularly enlightening and then entertaining journal, the B journal. And so, yeah, maybe you could say a few words on this as just as an example. The B journal is a very interesting, entertaining journal. And when I first encountered the journal, I find it interesting because the format is actually quite similar to those pictorial newspaper, that kind of newspaper is for entertainment.
But it's a very important outlet, some important essay published in the B journal. From the B journal's cover, we can see that it marketed the journal as an entertainment journal. Some famous ladies, Po Chi used to decorate the cover and some senior prestigious members from the art world also used to decorate the cover. So I think for the reader, when they look at the format and look at the cover design, they know this is a kind of entertainment journal.
In fact, in the journal, there's some important essay about Guo Hua was published. However, from the editorial content, we can see the journal actually has no very concrete or substantial editorial ideas. But later on, a lot of this committee, the editor from the B journal, they launched another new journal, it's Guo Hua Monthly. And from the cover design and the content, they show that they have very clear directions about the journal.
And they tried to create an image for the journal as well as the art society because these journal are actually the sociado journal. Guo Hua Monthly and Guo Hua are published by the Chinese painting society. And the editor have very clear directions about the journal, unlike the B journal, Guo Hua Monthly and Guo Hua they publish essays. And also some news of the members from the art scene.
And for instance, they even invite some oil painter to collaborate for a special issue on the idea of landscape painting. And I think that this is quite an issue, a very different understanding or a different stories of the Shanghai art world. Actually Guo Hua, they can collaborate with oil painter and the journal became a platform for all these discussions between members from different societies. And just a few words on the art colleges too in particular.
Yeah, art college. At the beginning, most of the art college focus on western art training, oil painting, for instance, because it's easy to market. Once you've got this technique, you can work in the commercial sector. But later on, in from the 1920s onward, we can see Guo Hua previously was taught by institutions.
And in the republican period, this kind of teaching also included in the educational curriculum, the new art curriculum in China. And curriculum is something which can reflect what Guo Hua means and how the knowledge of Guo Hua could be taught systematically through different courses. And from these colleges, we can see how they also use college as an institution to institutionalize Guo Hua practice through teaching. So the new generation, they will know what is Guo Hua for instance, during that time, they need to learn literature.
They need to learn philosophy and also, of course, a century and a birth and flower and vagabing tank. But you can see it's not only about technique, it's also about some Chinese knowledge, some knowledge about art philosophy and aesthetics. So this part actually is focused on how Guo Hua curriculum has been developed during this period. I want to follow up on this just very briefly because what you just described, this more holistic approach to teaching, that's in line with how literati's of previous times understood themselves.
Is that correct? Or is that a break in some way in the curriculum and the teaching of the art colleges in comparison to earlier literati? Earlier literati, obviously, they are quite interdisciplinary. And in the early 20th century, the new educational system actually divide different knowledge in different disciplines.
In a way, you can't train a literati anymore. But for this tradition, continue actually also realizing the new curriculum. Art is not just about skill, but also about your thought, how your understanding of the tradition for instant art history and how you understand the philosophy of Chinese tradition and how this can be embedded in your practice. And in some way, actually, is the literati's view on art.
But I don't think that the student trained in this curriculum, it could be a literati themselves because there's an art discipline called Chinese literature at that time. So even though they got some training in literature or poetry, but they are not as good as their predecessors. In the next chapter, you're going to talk about a sea change in cultural practice, bringing paintings from a private art world to the public sphere, thereby not just changing methods of display and aiming a new viewing experience, shaping public taste, et cetera, but also encouraging the commercialization of art on a whole different scale in comparison to earlier periods. And again, you substitute your research with an appendix of exhibitions held during the year 1997.
Could you tell our listeners a bit more about the commercial world, the social networks, as well as the government, and so on and so forth, who will encourage a veritable exhibition culture and maybe also what each was hoping to gain from it? I think the exhibition culture is a new thing and also a new concept introduced to China in the late 19th century, when the Chinese government, the Qing government participate in a lot of international expositions and welfare. And in this kind of international art fair, international exposition, the function or the purpose of this exhibition is to showcase the products from China, or from China, and to construct a national identity and also is for trading. So the commercial element has already embedded in exhibition, and the early exhibition organized on art objects in China, some of these exhibitions are launched by the merchants in Shanghai, and like Wang Yi-Ting, Li Pin-Shuo, I've mentioned the name at the beginning in first structure because they are quite an important actor in the art scene.
They apply commercial tactics into the art world. And so to exhibit artwork is a new idea because in the past the viewing opportunity is confined to private space, not much in the public space. So you can imagine that if artists are going to showcase their work to the public, they will have quite different audience, expanded audience. And also this kind of factor actually will determine how artists to choose their style and how they build their personal style.
And exhibition is also a new kind of capital. If you know the knowledge how to use make use exhibition, which can help the artist gain reputation to pull more, the artist and also to put more, not just individual artists, but also art society, art groups and also nation. So in this chapter, I discuss about different party, how they make use of exhibition as a means to for different purpose. For instance, the government, they apply exhibition to construct national identity.
In the 1930s, two important individual, Liu Hachu, and Shibu Hong, with the support from the government, they organized contemporary Chinese painting exhibition in Europe. And so if you're going to bring the Chinese artworks to international audience, you will think about what kind of art will represent China. So inevitably, they choose Hachu as the only art form to include in the exhibition. And this is also a requirement from the European collaborator.
They didn't want to see something which are like the Western style painting from China, but they want to see the authentic Chinese artworks. So there's a confirmation of the value of Guo Hwa in a way, also as a status in China. And for art society, exhibition is also a way to promote an aesthetic and braised by the art society. So there's several, many, the number of exhibitions increased dramatically.
Also, we're handing hang with the encouragement in different Guo Hwa society. And I focus on art society, the being society, for instance, and how the being society organized a socioto exhibition. And we can see that from the empirical data provided in the pandex. You can see the format of exhibition was standardized.
For instance, it always lasts for three days to one week, so it's very short. And exhibit will be renewed every day or every two days. So you can see they change the exhibit list continually during the show. And this practice obviously influenced by the commercial aspect of exhibition, because our audience or the visitor, they view the exhibition and they call some of the exhibit.
And so you have to make replacement. The empirical data also show that exhibition, for instance, some kind of specific exhibition very popular during different seasons. For instance, in some fan exhibition are very popular, because fan painting is a kind of functional and also is an indicator of social status. You can imagine that it's like what branch of handbag you are using at that time is what, who's painting on the fan you are using.
So for our society, this is the way to gain some reputation. For instance, if they can include most of the famous artists in the group exhibition, this obviously will elevate as social status and also in the competitive art world. And they can stand out from other different social artistic groups for individuals. For individual artists, the rise of exhibition culture also generate great impact on artists, artistic practice.
You can imagine that if you need to organize a solo exhibition, for instance, tries a year and you have to produce over 200 pieces of exhibits. So artists will be very productive and constrained by the exhibition culture and they need to show new artworks to the audience. For the audience and the visitor, they are expected something new for exhibition. And in this chapter, I use Zhang Dhatian and Jeng Dhatian's case study to show how they use exhibition to construct their own personal persona.
Zhang Dhatian, you can see, is very funny and he presented himself as a traditional literary. And he didn't care about material gain, but in reality, he cared about fame and also about commercial economic gains. And Jeng Dhatian also used different tactics to present his artwork to the public. For instance, he invited some celebrities and prestigious cultural leaders to attend his exhibitions and to pen reviews on his artwork.
As I mentioned in the introductions, these celebrities and cultural leaders, they possess symbolic capital. Their presence in the exhibition or their support for the artist's exhibition is a kind of process of consecration or recognition of the artist. In a way, they can elevate the artist's status, particularly the young artist's status in the art world. And so for individual artists, exhibition is a way to gain fame and also money.
For artists' society, it is also a way to gain fame and also to promote an ascetics ideology as well as to gain commercial gain. And for the exhibition, exhibition is a way to construct the national identity to showcase the artistic accomplishment to the international audience. Great. I want to follow up on this because being based in Berlin and at the Asian Art Museum, this is incredibly interesting because usually in England, as well as Germany and other parts of Europe, it's Leo Heisou, who is the kind of representative of the Chinese government coming to Europe.
But for France, it's Subeichung in particular, you see, and so there's almost a divide between those two as well. So I was wondering if you could say a few more words on Subeichung. From the primary material, it showed that they are the rival. But the same purpose, they're rival with the same purpose, is to represent as a mediator between Chinese government and European institutions to organize and serve like a curator to organize to get a different kind of artwork and to showcase what is a contemporary Chinese art in the early 20th century.
I think his connection with France is very obvious because he received training in France and Leo Heisou, and he's a very smart young artist. He established the Arco-Lage and he's very active and also support by the government to visit different economy in Europe and also in Japan. For Leo Heisou, for instance, the process of the preparation is that Leo Heisou, he determined what kind of art she included in the exhibition. And this was quite controversial, and also the Shanghai art world, like the Chinese painting association led by Wang Yitin, they published an open letter to Leo Heisou, complaining that the process of organizing this exhibition is not transparent enough.
So in response to the request Leo Heisou eventually opened the core, but still even opened the core and still he had the power to determine what kind of art should be included. I think all exhibition cannot be said is neutral because different party and actor involving the exhibition, they got the right and also the authorities to determine what kind of art should be included in this exhibition. So obviously, Sivihong and Liu Haishu, they pick up some painting from the social network. So, and include the painting from their friends, the fellow artists, and the fellow artists will also include their students' work in the exhibition.
So this is how they organize the exhibition, but it's also quite important is that this exhibition gained quite a good response in Europe. And they also share how the European view of contemporary Chinese art in this period. And most importantly, and also this exhibition also contribute to the formation of more than Chinese painting collection in Europe. Yeah, it's great.
Thank you. So to kind of sum up this, art periodicals, art societies and schools, as well as exhibitions, all combined resulted in a really matured art world that encouraged the production, distribution and consumption of Guo Hwa, as we started out this interview too. And so in Chapter 4, you're going to talk about money reading and reveal how price lists were written, produced and distributed. And so I wanted you to share this fascinating insight into the price list and then also how the pricing of art works.
This chapter is quite interesting and even a reader, no any background knowledge of modern Chinese art, I think is the material presented in this chapter will interest the readers. And in this chapter, I focus on the consumption of Guo Hwa and how different kind of capital, like symbolic capital, cultural capital, social capital could be converted into economic capital, and also symbolic capital too. And the market is fascinating during this the Republican period because it is during this period price list will publish publicly in press media, like newspaper and magazine. So it's easier for us to collect the data and this price list is written in great detail.
And it also shows that the artists are not ashamed to exchange their art work for money, which was a taboo in the previous period of China, even though in Imperial China actually artists also exchanged their art work for different kind of material gain. And so in this period, I think the artists published their price list because they regarded practicing art as a kind of professional practice, like a lawyer and lawyer, you can also have a price. And so the price list is quite indigenous practice in China and the price was determined by the market because in that time we can't see any intervention from the government, unlike in Japan, some price may be actually influenced by the state. And in China, if the price were determined by the markets and we can see at the taste what kind of art we're interested in, the audience, they will really spend money to buy.
And from the price list, it also reflects something quite different from the standard narrative of Chinese art. For instance, Nijan, a very highly regarded artist and his style have been practiced by the orthodox group in the late-chink period. But his price could be if an artist's paint in the style of Nijan in republican period, you can get some kind of discounts because Nijan's work style is very economic. He used very few brushwork for his painting.
So you can see the consideration in the market. And the information from the price list also provides a lot of information, like what kind of style was priced highly and what kind of style are preferred by the popular in the market. For instance, like Boo and Green landscape, which was not quite promoted by the literate taste, but you need to use more color and skill for Boo and Green style. So you need to pay more if you want to have one of these paintings.
And it's also interesting that in the market, the four ones in the debate of what is more in the debate is about the value of modern Chinese painting. Hello. Sorry. You might have interviewed Shoflous Jürtsen, he becomes a coach.
For instance, the four ones style, which have been criticized severely by the reformers in the market. You can see some artists, they present themselves as a lawyer, a follower of four ones, like from Chiang Yang Wu Fan, their price on top of the list. And they're painting the most expensive in the Shanghai world. And they all claim themselves as the lawyer follower of the four one orthodox.
So this provides a very different perspective for us to think about the value or the taste of Guo Huan in republican period. Another interesting point is that once you have an open market, and then there will be more different kind of position, which some of the people or individual, they serve as a mediator in the market. And this is also a way to provide some job opportunity in the Shanghai art world. Consumption is also a way to preserve some artwork and also to provide economic support for the art world to sustain.
So I think it's a quite important part in the autonomous and healthy, mature art world. And unfortunately, because of the war, we can see the number of price list published decreased dramatically. I can see that actually after the war, some artists continue to sow their painting in their open market in Shanghai. But eventually, it is after 1949, the establishment of the Republican PRC, that selling artwork in the market is no longer exist.
And the market moved to other cities like Hong Kong. And in fact, you end your book with the 1937 World of the Breakout of the China-Japanese War. Thank you so much for this really excellent interview and this amazing book. Now, tell us what you're working on now after finishing this book and what your research includes.
I'm not working on a project on landscape painting. Landscape has always been my research interest, because landscape seems to be quite neutral, but in fact, it's quite political. Now I'm working on a project on the core relationship between landscape painting, landscape aesthetic, nationalism and more than tourism. I use different famous Cinex sites, particularly those in the South East China, for instance, like Hongxian and Yendang.
I use this site as entry points. This site, the place that a lot of different human activity took place. And in the Republic of the Republic, it seems that a lot of artists visit Yendang for instance, and they also paint landscape painting based on the Cinex site. So I want to know why these artists start visiting new sites, and how this site has been single art by the government for modern tourism, and how the Chinese landscape aesthetic can be employed by the government to construct a national perspective or national ways to view beautiful scenes and famous mountains.
So it's about how national these governments also use art as a way for political propaganda to create and construct some political ideology. Great, very much looking forward to your next book. Thank you very much for taking the time to come. Thank you very much.
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