The interesting software will eat the world. I feel like coding will eat all knowledge work, right? And we're kind of going that direction already. The whole agent stack is emerging. Identity, payments, marketing, even CLI versus MCP. Like, all of these are really new things. And I think a lot of the old playbook goes away. Yeah, it's a whole whole new world. I hope more companies will stay small. And I think the founders of this generation realize that. Like, they want to stay as small as possible. Yeah. And instead of having, like, a 10-person product team, you have, like, a 2- or 3-person product team. And you have a bunch of agents to help you. Yeah. Someone tweeted that, like, the job market is so bad that I can only pursue my dreams now. Yeah. So, like, it's like, yeah. It's like, yeah. So, maybe you lost your job, but, like, now you have to do your own thing. Yeah, 100%. And have
Most people open their phone to feel something. Connected, productive, entertained. Each app is a door to a different emotional state. In 2007, the iPhone gave us the app grid. 19 years later, billions of people still tap the same colored squares dozens of times a day. The interface became so familiar, it stopped feeling like technology. It became reflex. Now, a generation of builders is collapsing that entire grid into a single conversation. One agent that checks your analytics, updates your documents, runs your errands, and gives you a pep talk on your morning walk. Not because the apps failed.
but because talking is faster than tapping. The question is, what happens to products, companies, and careers when building software costs almost nothing? A16Z general partner Anish Acharya speaks with Peter Yang, creator and product lead at Roblox. All right, welcome, everyone. I've got my friend Peter Yang here. Peter, welcome. Yeah, great to be here. It's good to see you again. Yeah, yeah, it's great to see you. Peter and I worked together at Credit Karma for a brief stint, and then we went our separate ways, and I rediscovered Peter from his prolific posts on X and your YouTube, and you've got a little bit of a Clark Kent Superman thing going, because you've still got a day job, right? That's right, I still have a day job, yes. Yeah, can you share where? Yeah, I work at Roblox as a PM. Amazing, Roblox. And Drees' Portfolio Company. Yes. One of my favorites. Well, incredible, man. Let's get right into it. Maybe I'll start with a softball fun question, and then we're going to talk about everything in the claw ecosystem. We're going to talk about coding agents. We're talking about a little bit about maybe what students should
Sure. Maybe to start, what is the name of your, how many claws do you have? And tell me their names. I only have one. I call her Zoe. Zoe? But I have like multiple conversations going with her. Okay. And why Zoe? I have two girls and I was going to call my younger one Zoe and I did not. So I'm going to call my open claw Zoe instead. I see. Yeah. This is your fallback plan. Peter, tell me a little bit about open claw, how you discovered it, how you're using it today and what you think the implications are. Yeah. I was lucky to interview Peter Steinberger before he became super famous and the whole thing blew up.
And then right after I set up the thing, it took forever to set up. It was super janky. And yeah, it does a lot of things for me. It pulls analytics for me across YouTube and my Mercury bank account. It can update Google documents for me. It can build websites for me. But if I was honest with you, dude, I mostly just talk to it through voice and get voice replies. And every other day, I used to do a pep talk. Look through all your memory and give me some deep insights that I don't know about. I remember I was on a walk, and it gave me a three-minute pep talk that was really amazing.
Really amazing. It's something about, oh, you're like talking to me about your career business and blah, blah, and like your job. But just remember that your kids, seven and four, are going to grow up very soon and they're not going to want to spend time with you. Wow. So you should re-optimize for them instead. Yeah. Yeah. That's really cool. And I mean, very cool, but also something that all the language models could have done prior. Yeah. So what's the difference between this and a use case like that? Yeah, that's a very good question. So I don't know. Because I've been installed on Telegram, it just feels like more personal than using my cloud rich activity. And it just feels like something like text in bed. It's probably not very healthy, but like I texted it in bed. I talked to it during my commute. And it feels like it feels more like a personal, like after human. Yeah.
Yeah. So how much for you is OpenClaw about the kind of interface, like pushing it to messaging and maybe helping to trick our brain into feeling like, hey, this is a person or a person-esque thing versus all the other components of the stack, the self-modification, the skills directory, all the rest. I think it's probably 80% just personal part of it because I mostly just talk to it and like, you know, through voice. But I also think like it's something, first of all, it is pretty janky. It tends to forget things a lot. Yeah. But like...
Any kind of zany idea that I have, I just have to talk to it and it can probably just do. Like the other day, I was doing voice replies with it. I was like, hey, can we just have a live phone call instead? And then it's like, okay, you got to connect to it. You got to do all this stuff. And then, okay, fine. I went off and did it. And then we had a phone call. It called my phone. Oh, really? You have that set up? I'd be dying to set that up. It's not very good, though. Like the latency is bad. But the fact that I was able to get it going is like pretty impressive. So it's kind of like any kind of crazy idea I have, it can kind of do. And then in practice, how are you doing that? Are you asking it to write a skill on the fly? Are you discovering a skill? How much of the code gen are you actually using? I mean, I talk to it in super casual way with
I'll open my computer, I'll do all this stuff. And then it's a Gmail call, and it troubleshoot a little bit, and it works. So with Cloud, I have very fancy prompts, very long prompts. But with OpenCloud, I just kind of text it. Yeah, it is. Really interesting. So we sort of touched on a couple things, actually. So one, there's mobile messaging. There's the memory system. There's the sort of code generation component. How much do you think the memory system, like,
Is it innovative because it's file-based? You said that it forgets things, but so do language models. Do you think the memory system is well done? Does it hold it back, or does it enable it? I think the default memory system is actually not that great. The way I understand it works is just a memory.md text file. Yes, per day. And then every day it updates. And it tends to forget things a lot. So I actually installed this three-layer memory system that, to be honest, I don't fully understand. But it has Toby's QMD search tool. So I installed that. And then I installed a two-gigabyte thing. And then it got a little bit better.
But I have to remind it, I have to put into the agents.md, hey, before you answer any question from me, go through all your memory and check everything. And it also tends to forget that it can do stuff. Like, can you update my Google Doc? Oh, I can do that. Yeah, yes, you can. It's in your file. So you have to remind it. Yeah, really interesting. Well, maybe let's get into a little bit of the controversy. You'd said that apps will die, claw is going to be everything and everywhere. I mean, talk us through that point of view. Yeah, well, first of all, I tweet all kinds of random crap that's not really well thought about. We take it all as fact. Yeah. But I do think, like, ever since I set up all these apps, like Mercury, MCP, and all this kind of crap.
on my open call. Like, I don't actually open those apps much anymore. But I do agree with you. Like, I think the ones that are going to die first or, like, maybe get less usage first is, like, apps that you're just opening to try to complete a task. Like, you actually are trying to do something. Like, apps that you're opening to get entertainment can probably survive a little bit longer. But, like, apps that you're opening to complete a task, like, it's just a way you should text my agent to do it for me. Yeah. It's like you have a really good admin. Does it do stuff for you? Yeah. Yeah. And so how much are you finding? Has this reduced your smartphone usage outside of modular open call? Yeah. No, because I'm, like, a Twitter ad addict. I use my smartphone way too much. But, yeah, in terms of using those apps, it's definitely reduced it.
Yeah, because you're not going to ask Zoe, hey, read my X for me and tell me what's interesting. I mean, it sends me like a morning briefing with the top two tweets and stuff that like trends, but yeah, still open X and look through it. Yeah, it's interesting because I've always had this theory that people open apps on their phone because they want to feel a feeling. Yeah. And I think, of course, there's some like functional set of needs, which is why you open calendar or something, but also think that WhatsApp is you want to feel connected and Slack is you want to feel productive. And of course, TikTok is you want to feel entertained. So I do wonder with just one agent.
How do you sort of do the context switching of like, when are you flirting? When are you getting shit done? I mean, in a sense, it gives you a nice, it sort of gives you a nice division of the intents that you don't get with Zoe. That's the plan. But I do have multiple channels set up with Zoe and Telegram. Like one is just to write random voice replies. And the other one is we're actually working on a project together. And the other one has a public channel where I'm giving demos. I don't want to review private information. Yes. So I like multiple channels. And is that implemented as sub-agents or? No, it's just some stanky setup I found online. Like you can set up multiple Telegram channels and then.
I'm not sure if it actually remembers across the channels, but like you can have separate conversations at least. Got it. Yeah. And how transparent are you with your agent? Does it do your personal email? I'm like super transparent. I did buy the Mac Mania set up its own email. Okay. But I gave it like read access to my email and my calendar. And I also gave it like write access to some docs. Yeah. But it can't screw my entire drive or something. Yeah. So how do you imagine OpenClaw, which is sort of an architecture and primitive, how does it get productized, packaged for the world?
I mean, I think that's what Peter Steinberg is working on at OpenAI, right? He's probably going to build something to ChatGPT, which everybody uses, so that ChatGPT can actually get stuff done for you and, like, maybe it feels more human. Yeah. Dude, let me write about ChatGPT. Please, yeah, yeah. For some reason, they trained the model so that at the end of every conversation, it's always, if you want, I can also do X and Y. Yeah, yeah. And dude, I got so annoyed by it that I kind of churned from ChatGPT. Oh, really? Yeah, so it probably increases their metrics, but it's just, like, super annoying. It's like, why don't you just do it in the first place? It's like, are you a cloud guy now? Yeah, I'm a cloud guy now.
But I use Codex to code. Yeah. You like Codex? You prefer it to Cloud Code or use both? Codex when I want to try to do something real and Cloud Code is when I'm just like buying it. Well, it's interesting. I think they live at different points and there's a sort of space of trade-offs. Whereas I find Cloud Code and Opus 4.6, it's a little more chatty. It makes more assumptions, but it can be more pleasant for a synchronous experience. Whereas Codex, it really thinks hard and it's more often accurate. But sometimes it's sort of like being in a conversation where the other person pauses for three minutes to think. Yeah.
So you don't have the flow state, right? It's hard to get a flow. Like Clockwork, dude, I told you the other day, Clockwork almost like a slot machine. It has different things each time. Oh, 100%. I do think that if you think, remember we were talking about in the old social networking era, it was variable scheduled rewards, right? That was the whole magic of it. Like you open your Facebook feed and once in a while it's like boring, boring. Oh my God, this is so exciting. And the coding agents have the exact same property. Also, the time is variable. So sometimes you get something in a second, sometimes it takes five minutes. So up to a certain point, I actually think that both of those things give it that casino-like feeling. Yeah.
And the other thing that's very different about the process or maybe just the way it works is like coding is kind of like self-explanatory. In Cloud Code, you have all this crazy shit. You have like hooks and like skills and plugins. If you're not following X, you have no idea how to customize this thing. But once you customize it, you kind of feel like it's part of you. So it's kind of hard to turn. It's interesting. So I've customized mine because also I read the long thing that Boris put up. But I will say that I think that Cloud Code, a lot of the reasons that I enjoy it are just harness features. Like, for example, if you cut an image, you have to paste it into a file and then paste that file into Codex. You can't just take a subset of the screen, screenshot it, and then paste it directly into Codex the same way you can with Cloud Code.
So just like little things like that. CloudCode added voice. It's a little bit janky right now, but it's going in the right direction. So they've just got a bunch of quality of life things. Yeah. CloudCode speaks to Cloud and Chrome. Okay. And Codex doesn't speak to Atlas. Got it. So I think these are all things that OpenAI will fix. Yeah. I think Codex is actually a much better model, but they don't exist today. Yeah. Yeah. They need to fix it. I mean, they're going to go all on Codex, I'm sure. Yeah. Talk to me about coding agents. What's your general view? Do you think it's the end of SaaS? Do you think they're just a toy?
Well, first of all, I'm not an engineer, so I'm not a novice. But I do hear that, like I was telling some folks the other day, an AI native startup, and they're basically trying to have a bunch of Vibe coders. And all the Vibe coders are just trying to build internal tools that replace their SaaS that they're paying for. Really? So it's an actual company that's doing this? It's an actual company. It's an AI native company. It's like one of the Vibe coding companies, one of the more popular ones.
Interesting. Oh, I see. So they're actually an AppGen company. They're an AppGen company, and they're paying for a bunch of SaaS, and they want to get rid of the payment by using it. Okay, so in that case, they might be the most extreme form of adopter because their own product is AppGen, so they should use AppGen for everything. I guess, is your prediction, though, that the average company will churn off of Slack or Deal or... I don't think... I feel like Slack has a lot of legs, because Slack can also be the place where you talk to the agents themselves. But some of the other ones, they are pretty complicated, so it's kind of hard to buy or that kind of stuff. But I feel like if you have an app like maybe Calendly or something more simple...
Yeah. Then why should I pay for it? Why should I pay for it? Though the camera point is that it's not that expensive and you really want to maintain your own Calendly thing. Yeah. Versus pay 20 bucks a month. It always gets updated. It's always up. Yeah. Because there's just like a fixed amount of capacity that anyone in the organization is going to have for all this stuff. Yeah. That's true. Unless you hire like dedicated backwards like the startup does. But then it's the cost benefit versus just paying for Calendly. Yeah. Yeah. Isn't it interesting about, for example, like a lot of people are 20 bucks Sigma. Yeah. Yeah. The stock is down and like, you know, are you going to survive? Yeah. And, um...
I feel like the jury's out there. It's kind of hard to say. I feel like all designers are still on Figma, but as a designer, you kind of need to learn how to do Figma. If you want to know how to do Figma, you're probably going to be out of date in a couple years. My counterpoint to that is that I think that I've thought a lot about the sort of thinking tools versus making tools, right? The IDE was historically a making tool. It's a place for execution. I think it's migrating away from that. And now with execution going to zero, I think these sort of like multi-agent next-gen IDEs, a lot of them are about trying things.
and using the trial and error as a way to inform your thinking. Like a lot of times I'll just build a feature in a really naive way and I'll hammer the coding agent until it works. Then I'll say, hey, write all the things that you would have done differently. And I'll go back to the initial point and redo it. So I wonder if, and I think Figma actually does both. I think it's a place for design execution, but it's also an important place for design thinking. And I think that's their opportunity to be highly relevant in the new stack. Yeah, I totally agree. I totally agree. But I think A16Z has like, you guys invest in Pencil or something? Pencil.de? Speedrun did, yeah. Yeah, Speedrun. And yeah, Figma needs to like level up this AI tooling because like watching these agents collaborate with you and do stuff is like very interesting.
I know it's top of mind for them. Yeah. What do you think are the most under-discussed capabilities of coding agents? Oh, what's under-hyped and maybe what's over-hyped as well? This is probably not under-hyped, but, you know, I feel like entrances that software will eat the world. I feel like coding will eat all knowledge work, right? And we're kind of going that direction already. Like, I think Lovable recently launched, like, today. Yeah. They can support everything and can make decks. Yeah. So, yeah. And I feel like everyone's changing this. And Lovable's probably in the lead. Yeah. I don't want to use PowerPoint anymore. I don't want to write a Google. I hate writing Google Docs, dude. That's my entire life. So, like, the other day, I was writing my blog post, and instead of just, like, typing it out, I was like, hey, let me just use Cloud Code, and let me give
It did the first 80%. The last 20% I started with Mali going there to take big stuff. But that's the way I work now. I never start from zero. I always get the first 80% from AI, right? Yeah, it's interesting. If you look at it, there are also historical analogs of this. I think Satya said this, which is that Excel is the most powerful or most popular programming language in the world. And that it's sort of a programming language that millions and millions, I mean, 100 million plus people must know, maybe even more. And yet we don't think of it that way. It's a way to sort of...
describe and solve problems. And I think coding agents are going to be that, of course, times a thousand, where even things that feel subjective, like writing Google Docs, can be represented in the coding domain in such a way that it's more satisfying, more productive, more high leverage to use agents to do it. Yeah, because Excel was like, probably because it's super approachable, right? Yeah. And like coding agents, the code is basically gone. It's like, we're just talking to some agent, getting to do stuff. So yeah, yeah, exactly. It's going to be huge, yeah. What do you think the future company looks like? Is it just a bunch of agents with a CEO? Is the CEO an agent? I mean, what is the role for people in a company in the future? Okay, well, I have some hot techs. So we both worked at some companies together, and let me give you a hot tech, man. Maybe we'll cut this out. But I feel like as a company gets bigger, it tends to become like a shady, shady place to work, dude. Yeah. Because there's a lot of people, you have to align. I think that's axiomatic, yeah. Right? And I remember at, I wish I mentioned this company, but I remember in our company, you have to have always like OKR meetings, and I'm just like,
Where I'm going with this is I hope more companies will stay small. And I think the founders of this generation realize that. They want to stay as small as possible. And instead of having a 10-person product team, you have a two- or three-person product team and you have a bunch of agents that help you. I think it's way easier to cross-function a line with agents than with humans. Yeah, well, actually, in a sense, the agents, actually, because it takes the emotion out of it, too. Like, you can imagine if I sent my agent, you sent your agent to go negotiate something, and they came out with some conclusion. It's not emotional.
It's not for either of us. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's funny. One of the things that we've been talking a bunch about is what is the pro case for AI at work in terms of employee experience? And I think it's what you're describing, right? Like how do you increase the NPS of work? So if we like go all the way back or even broadly the NPS of the human experience, right? Think of the NPS of the day-to-day human in 10,000 BC when you just don't get eaten by the lion. And that's like a good day, right? Or maybe a hundred years ago, it's okay, don't get killed at the factory, crushed by the steam press or whatever else. And now a lot of it is like, just don't get sucked into some high emotion sort of negotiation with another VP.
subordinate. Yeah, like a 50-minute stack going back and forth. Yeah, exactly. And eventually everyone's like, I don't want to tell the CEO and eventually it goes there and it's just terrible. So maybe the future of this is that a lot of that emotional subjective work gets handled and we're sort of guiding the process but not in the middle of it in a way that just doesn't suit us as humans. Yeah, lead that to life as a PM creator and I feel like all the PMs actually just want to create products.
Well, that's why we all got into it. It's so interesting. I mean, Nickel talks about it all the time, but like every PM's sort of view of the ideal PM is the innovator. Like I came up with a new thing and I had the big insight and it unlocked the product. I think the black pill is I don't think most PMs know how to do that. In fact, many companies have zero people that know how to do that at all in any function. So nonetheless, I think PMs aspire to be able to do that and they should either do it and either be successful or maybe not successful and move to a different function. I also feel like my hot take is like basically all the PMs I know are trying to buy a quote at nice on weekends. And I feel like my hot take is that I feel like if you're actually unemployed, like you probably have more time to be a builder and like to be innovative.
You can actually like play all this stuff and learn all this stuff. Or maybe be an engineer on the team. I used to be an engineer and I got sort of, I don't know if I got forced to be a PM. Maybe I also perceived PM as like being a little more high status when I joined Google. But then eventually you come around the other side. You're like, this is terrible. Like you never really get the satisfaction of actually shipping other than once a quarter when you ship. I mean, the PM skills of talking to users and like trying to figure out what to do, like what's the problem to solve. Like those are very important still. But yeah, you've got to wear multiple hats too. You've got to go build a thing yourself, go prototype it and get some feedback and then maybe bring an engineer along. How much do you think that everyone has to go as fast as, I mean, like Gary was talking about stimmies and skipping sleep and Gary 10G stack. I mean, is it...
Hey, I mean, is that like the default way that we all need to work? Or do you think there's a trade-off for thoughtfulness? I think it's very easy now with all these AI tools just going like 10 different directions at once. Yeah. So sometimes you do have to slow down and try to figure out where you want to go. Yeah. But I also believe that the traditional process where you do annual planning, I just feel like fully realizing a local, a sort of local maxima, you should go very fast, right? So let's say you kind of hill climb, you get to the bottom of the new local maxima. I think with agents, you should be able to get to the top of that hill extremely fast, right? Give a new insight, build everything around the insight so it's fully expressed. But then I think to get to the next, the next sort of hill.
should have like fast and slow. That's probably the future way. Yeah, I think so. And like, you gotta go that random walk, which takes a while, right? So we were talking before we started recording about some of the business in a box platforms. Have you looked at them? Do you have a view? I've looked at posts that we talked about. I don't know if the guy like intentionally made it the opposite of AI slot. I think so. Yes, yes, yes. Well, I mean, I have a pretty big public presence, right? So I connect all my shit to it. And then, I mean, it definitely gives a good peek into what's possible. But like right now, it's probably still pretty like early stage. Like it's time to run like Facebook ads. Yeah. Why am I running Facebook ads?
Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm very excited about it because it does feel like it's a path for more people to build companies. Even if they're single one-person companies, if you think about how competitive it is to build a billion-dollar business, like the markets that support the number of people trying versus 100 million versus 10 million versus $100,000 TAM. Like maybe there are these pockets all over the country, all over the world, where there are opportunities for $100,000 TAM products. And that would change somebody's life. Now, that's not an enterprise venture-backed company, but that's okay. So I hope that whole thesis works because I do think it's a way to get more people to participate. Yeah, that's my plan for my kids, dude. Like I want them to just build like a pushback business in high school. Yeah. And they can skip the whole college and core corporate life. Yeah.
Well, dude, I think this is for 10 years, there's this moral panic about the kids want to be YouTubers. You're a YouTuber. And in the vein of Mr. Beast, I think the pro case for that actually is that the kids wanted to be entrepreneurs or have agency. And the only channel for people if they weren't programmers was creating YouTube videos, at least online. Yeah. So if you're like an online native generation, you want to create something, you're not a programmer, you make a YouTube show. Now you can make a lot more than that. Yeah, you can be wherever you want. Exactly. So exactly. It'd be very exciting. Yeah. Any other hot takes for us? I'm curious about your thoughts about this, actually. So I feel like a lot of people are saying like agents will interact with your product first. Right. And they see all these great companies like doing like APIs and MCPs. But like, how do you think about you being a customer for a while? So like.
We had to have indirect monetization. We're never charging consumers directly for these products, which is why you got ads and stuff. isn't just large-scale networks, and we're all obsessed with retention and engagement and whales, and all of these things really mattered because we didn't simply charge people for products. So I think one big thing that's actually really helped in the AI era with that is that consumers are now excited to try new things. They're willing to pay. They're willing to pay a really high price point. There's also consumption revenue in consumer for the first time. Like token and stuff. Yeah, for like token. You have your subscription plus your token. And then the actual blessing in disguise is that there are real costs as well. You have these inference costs. So you're like, wow, we have to charge.
our customer on day one. So I think one thing is that like the business model simplification, I think will really help with a lot of what you're describing. Two, I think that a lot of the products will have a sort of, it'll have an API interface for your agency to interact with or for transactional sort of rote things. And then it'll have a consumption-based interface as well. So you can also imagine like a mobile app where there's like the feed, but then you can kind of turn it over to where the wires are and you can just ask for things to get done or you can just see the log of the things that got done. Yeah, I mean, people will do both, right? I mean, you can imagine Credit Karma where we work. Like once in a while, you want to just take a look at your score history and a few other maybe credit card offers. I don't know. I mean, yeah, yeah. If I get my score with all kinds of credit card offers, I'll definitely do that. Yeah, 100%,
be like, yo, can you just fix all my stuff? Or what stuff did you fix this week? How much money did I save? Yeah, it's definitely interesting. Yeah. But look, I also just think the whole agent stack is emerging. Identity, payments, marketing. We don't even CLI versus MCP. And like, all of these are really new things. And I think a lot of the old playbook goes away. Yeah, it's a whole new world. And like, in 2025, I thought agents was overhyped. But now I think it's really kind of coming. Me too. It's just the word is frustrating because it gets so overloaded. Yeah, there's like workflows, like all this kind of shit. Totally. I've been trying to just say, can we just say like model in a loop?
Yeah, exactly. But nobody likes to hear that. It's like agents is much flashier. My hope is that all this stuff, like a lot of people think we're going to lose our jobs. It's probably what would happen at some point. But all this stuff just makes the human work more fun, like other jobs more fun. Dude, I don't think we're all going to lose our jobs. I really think, and we see this a lot of companies. So we look at a ton of companies and we've seen two different buckets. So one bucket is, hey, we dramatically increased productivity for a person or a team. We see this in like recruiting, but we couldn't do 100% of the job. So we could do the phone screen, but we couldn't obviously show the candidate around the office. Or we could do the phone screen and we could answer all the questions about the company and we could even do the like comp negotiation, but we couldn't do the onboarding.
The other style of company which we see, which is maybe a Decagon, right, or a happy robot is, hey, we did 100% of a job like customer support. The customer called in, they had a question, we hopefully resolve their query, and then that's it. And that is 100% automated. I'd say that second group where you have 100% automation of a job function is really rare. Almost every AI product, AI native X or Y we see, is able to provide dramatic lift, but it's not able to do 100%. Today, anyway, it's still humans that do that stuff. And it's interesting, too, because the buyer looks at that as software, as expensive software, whereas in the case of something like a happy robot ducking on Sierra, they look at it as cheap labor. So I do think there's a different buyer mindset, but because there's been this difficulty of getting to 100% automation, I think a lot of the efficiency gain shows up in just a different way, probably not less jobs. Maybe we get the European-style four-day work week. Maybe companies get twice as productive. I have no idea. But you don't think that? I feel like there's going to be a...
transition from like these like 10,000 plus people companies laying a lot of people off to hopefully like more smaller companies like solopreneurs and stuff like that? I think, yes, I think that the sort of shape of the economy is going to change, like the amount of concentration, but I just don't think there's going to be less jobs. I think human ambition has no ceiling. Human desire has no ceiling. And just read any mildly interesting science fiction book. There's no way this is the peak expression of all the stuff that we want and we need and we're going to convince ourselves and all the new things that you read about every day is these luxuries, peptides, and everybody's going to have all of that stuff and want even more.
You know, dude, I saw a really good tweet about this. Like someone tweeted that the job market is so bad that I can only pursue my dreams now. Yeah, so maybe you lost your job, but like now you have to do your own thing. Yeah, 100% and have a shot at actually achieving it. Cool. Well, awesome, man. Maybe that's a good positive note to end on. Yeah, let's go now. Cool. Thanks, Peter. Thanks for listening to the A16Z podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, let us know by leaving a review at ratethispodcast.com slash A16Z. We've got more great conversations coming your way. See you next time.
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