Welcome back to the new thingery. I'm David Barr with me as always is my good friend Gregory MacDukele. How are you Greg? Oh, Glee Dokely David Barr.
I was singing the theme song to movie Zulu. Yeah. I'm going to talk about that today without a song. No, it's like, well, there's no words to it.
It's a time. And Alex was singing it to me the other day before I went to sleep and just stuck in my head. How are you Alex? I'm doing okay.
I'm looking forward for you to reciprocate and give me all the bye. I'll try. My voice isn't as nice as yours though. So today, really quick before we start, I neglected to do this in the last episode we recorded.
If you like the show and we're very grateful for each of our listeners sincerely, please do great in review and tell a friend, especially any young people, students you think might benefit these shows. And then for our, the after-profit rich people, you know, and then for after-hours crowd, we'll have new thingery plusters, something down the line. Thanks to our producer, Jake, the Canon, and Gannon. Today we're talking about the film Zulu.
This is our first discussion of a film. We'll have to talk about why. It's something appropriate for a podcast about the new thingery. That our first film choice should be Zulu.
This is really appropriate. It's hilarious. hilarious movie. No comedians, please.
Yeah, exactly. We, so we'll do Dumber and Dumber of course later. Zulu's filmed in 1964. I guess, you know what, purportedly, a favorite film of Leo Strauss.
Which is interesting. Is that why you chose this? No. No.
I saw the film the first place years ago. It was just awesome. So I saw the film, I don't remember having that big of an in the theater. I don't remember having that big of an impact on me.
Yeah, but yeah, that's true. When you were, but you were like 40 years old in the 60s, weren't you? Yeah, maybe the same to the younger crowd. Yeah.
So film. I mean, Greg heard it from Strauss himself back in the 50s in Chicago as a graduate. Well, yeah, the film depicts a younger producer. The war, the battle of works drifts.
So is the skirmish was the war between the British Army and the Zulu's in 1879. Greg, you were born 20 years prior to that battle. And so you should actually remember it quite well. We should also talk about it.
Really take the paper back then. It was long. We should talk about the founding of the Zulus because I think Greg was about 76 when the Zulus came into being as a people. Yeah.
Making them older. So amazing. We actually have managed to make this kind of funny. Oh, good Zulu.
Ah, come for the laughs. Stay for the mass murders. It's not a mass murder. Anyway, so really, really quick.
This film, as I said, it was filmed in direct. I mean, it was directed and written by a side and field. I don't really know too much about the production and background of the movie. There are a few articles out there that are good.
You can check it out. It's film on location in South Africa. It stars Stanley Baker and introduces to the world a very young, strikingly handsome Michael Kane, which is in a he plays a wonderful role. But it's again, it depicts about 150 British soldiers fighting a force of over 4,000 Zulu warriors.
And that kind of sets the stage for this film. So that's kind of where I'll stop. And Greg, you were the one that really convinced Alex and I to go along with film on this podcast. So why are we doing movies?
And then why this movie in particular? Why this movie in particular? I have no earthly idea. I think we should have done something funny.
But it was fun to watch I had never seen before. It was very entertaining. I watched it on a fairly big television. The panoramas are really impressive.
As you mentioned, it's shot on location. If you haven't seen this movie, I mean the background, what do you call that? The movie, the mountains in the background, the forest, all that stuff. But the animal life is just beautiful.
So for that reason alone, it's definitely what it's saying. Why are we doing it? Remember a lot of animal life, except for the hunting scene. There was a hunting scene.
Yeah. Well, the cinematography, the dancing, there are a lot of different aspects we'll talk about. But why movies, Greg, before this one? Sure.
Why movies? I mean, I think we wanted to do a podcast that... Because I thought movies are just kind of for dumb people, right? Like, you know, don't we read books?
Is it only we're doing? You know, watch movies all day and drinks. So done. You know, smoke cigarettes.
You know, what's going on, Greg? Well, some movies are serious, I think. I think Paul Cantor was talking about how Shakespeare was sort of television the day, right? It was sort of pop culture and it was what the masses went to see.
So I don't think that it's necessary that a movie is unserious. Now, a lot of movies are unserious. And by the way, we may do episodes on non-serious movies. We talked about doing an episode on adiocracy or office space or something like that.
But the idea here is we think, we like to think that maybe something about our book learning, as it were, gives us some insight into what's going on in movies, especially movies that are well done and seem to portray some aspect of human condition in a way that makes some sense. And this particular movie seems to capture what might be courage or bravery. There are all kinds of political and philosophic themes or questions raised in this. I think in a little bit of a publication, the episode right prior to this will be our episode on aerosol and courage, possibly.
And so here we figured why not do a movie that seems to sort of explore this question of what is courage for our very eyes. So it's going to discuss this question of courage or bravery. The zulu seem to be extremely brave people. I don't want to give away the ending, but the British also seem to be brave in their own way.
So it's a political question that gets raised. What is the proper role of religious authority within a political community, especially a martial political community? There's a beautifully moving scene about, there are two beautifully moving scenes about the role of music and civic life. What role does music play in sort of people together in love and war?
And hopefully we'll talk about those two really important musical scenes. That's why, I mean, aristocracy versus democracy versus technocracy or something like this. I mean, it's clear that there are some old British aristocrats. There's some other British men who seem to be clearly outside of the British aristocracy.
This criminal seems to come on. And then the engineer who did not seem to come from the cream of the top in British society, but who's really important in his films command. So there are all these political kinds of things. What's the nature of imperialism?
Excuse me. So there are all kinds of questions I think that this movie addresses. I think that that's an excellent summation, Greg. Thank you.
Thank you. Say something else? No, I think the connection to Shakespeare is really good. These are meant to present history in a way that explores these issues.
And for those of you who want to hear more about Shakespeare and political philosophy, we have an episode on Measure for Measure. And I think this might come out before or after our episode on Macbeth. We also did an episode on Shakespeare's Great Instoration, a new organ on it as well. That's right.
So on the theme of bravery, maybe, so both are brave. These are two courageous people. It ends with the zoos saluting the British as fellow Braves. Go back up.
Go back up. Before you get into it, do we have a review of the entire movie? I mean, you're already talking about it. That should probably come first, right?
Yeah, sure. Should I just jump into that? Yeah, give us an overview of the movie. I would like you to describe the way young Michael King looks.
Handsome. Golden curling locks that just kind of balances these on. Under the hot South African Sun. So the movie starts on the day after the zulu's have wiped out a huge column of British troops, right?
Leaving behind what's essentially 150 soldiers of various guys, but largely a medical religious kind of missionary colony. There's a lot of sick people in this colony. There's a priest, as we've talked about, or kind of preacher. And there's an engineer who's nearby and he's building a bridge.
And there's an aristocrat who's hanging out there and he's just kind of hunting and living with life, kind of exploring, basically. So we see them just kind of going about their business, likewise the zulu's or going about their business. The preacher has gone to visit them on a mission. And when news comes to the zulu's of the destruction and they're very happy and they decide they're going to mobilize to attack this medical colony.
There's a background, obviously, of imperialism and also of a kind of native people that's lived there with various sort of ancient ways that are very tied to the place and with a kind of physical and military excellence to them and commitment. We witness the first we see of the zulu's is twofold. One, they're picking up the guns from the British troops and two, they're having a communal marriage ceremony. So they're very integrated, communal society that's also coming in touch with technology.
And then let me also say, sorry, Alex, I don't mean. I mean, the rest is actually quite simple, right? Because the zulu's attack, there's a lot of interesting tactical moments, decisions, power politics being played that we can kind of spell out what's actually happening. And we should spoil the movie if you haven't seen it yet.
It was made in 1964, so get it together, guys. But it ends with a lot of death. The British really get their tactical minds in order, execute a stunningly powerful plan that barely works. It impresses the zulus who then just depart out of honoring them as fellow Braves.
We hear saluting them with the songs they leave, recognizing that they possess a virtue or they possess a similar virtue if not the same virtue to the zulus. What's really interesting is the sources of this courage, right? The interior relationships within the society, the zulus seem to have a very well-ordered society. The British are very chaotic and intentional with themselves.
Yet they both kind of achieve the same goals. And in a way, the British actually, you could even say they achieve their goal of defending themselves in this attack quite admirably, perhaps even better than the zulus might have. That's just a general overview of what happens. I think that's a great way.
What struck me is that in almost every single category of comparison between the British sold British arrangement and the zulus, the zulus are more impressive. Just in their like bearing, they're more noble. You see when Stanley Baker's character, I guess we can start using John Chard when we first... The engineer.
The engineer, right? With no battle experience is introduced to Michael Caine's character, Gondal Bromhead. He just calls him Bromhead. He discovers that Bromhead and his men have been doing nothing.
He's been lolligacking, essentially. And I guess Bromhead has ordered some of the Welchman in the contingent to deform a choir. So there's like people are lazy, they're people drinking, none of them have experienced battle. It's like this play-acting stuff.
And aside from the advantage that storehouse of guns provides the British, they're in every facet like outflanked, but they're totally unimpressive compared to the zulus. And at least it starts that way, but they somehow pull together, which I think is... Yes. So maybe one way to talk about this is the source of their courage and their bravery.
You mentioned both of the officers, the engineer Chard and the aristocrat Bromhead. Neither of them have battle experience. I didn't remember. I noticed this at the end.
I don't think Chard ever fires a shot. I think he has a kind of aversion to it. He does? Many times.
Okay. Maybe he's got the revolver. At the last scene, he just holds it. He doesn't...
Well, there's a scene when they're both on the roof when he's... I think isn't he cover Bromhead? Maybe. I think another person covers.
Maybe I got that one. To try and build up what you're saying, he's seen more running about and giving or leading. Yeah. He's certainly leading.
But he does say at the end, I came here to build a bridge. So there does seem to be something in his character that he's there on behalf of the Royal Engineers or what have you. But he's not there to fight. He's there to build, to extend the empire, you could say, but also just in a sort of technological way.
Whereas the aristocratic Michael Caine, he's out hunting. He's actually a huge shooter. His father was a very famous general in his family. But even there's a character in the film who kind of grows on you as a bit of a scam named Henry Hook, or as he's called Hooking the film.
And he's a kind of symbol for... Which actually I looked up the guy. The actual guy was not a drunk. Not a scapegoat.
He was a good guy. But now he's a famous guru and for all of us there in this film. He's played by James Booth. He's basically saying I've got a medical condition, these boils or whatever.
But he's perfectly physically capable. And he's the lowest sort of most selfish trying to stay out of battle. I think he reflects a side of modern society. At one point, I forget who it was.
Maybe it's one of the South African people says, oh, they'll run 50 miles and then they'll fight a full day. And then one of the troops says, why would you run to a battle? And that's in a way, they want to avoid fighting. They're trying to save their own hides.
But when they're really pressed, they pull together. Whether it's out of fear or what is it, they seem to somehow draw together. And so it's a reflection on the way in which modern society undermines this ordinary civic virtue or this necessary civic virtue, courage. It somehow comes out of nowhere.
I want to defend the British against the Zulu here for a moment. So at one point, the general of the Zulu sort of orders a really impressive tactical maneuver. He sends people in to figure out how many guns the British have. And so you're saying that the Zulu has had a better sense of civic duty and that may be right.
But can't that go too far? I mean, he orders an entire, I don't know what the regiments or the parts of the Zulu army are called it. I mean, there's 50 or 100 men whose job is to go walk into battle and get killed so that people on the ridge line can count how many guns are firing at them. I mean, that's, I don't know, behold the citizen Rousseau might say.
It's a really strange sort of phenomenon. I have a hard time seeing a British officer ordering people in the battle explicitly to die solely so we could count the guns on the other side. I don't know, Greg, did that happen a lot? Did that happen in World War II?
That's a very good point. I mean, I don't know if it was certain. I mean, maybe it was, I see, I'm just, I don't know. Greg, Greg, Greg, great is a good point.
Is that what we have? We have a competing moralities, right? We have a kind of civic unity, right? Which therefore de-emphasizes the individual and risks turning the individual into a means.
Right. And then we have, and that goes in line with the sort of a communal marriage ceremony that we saw. And then we have one that stresses individualism, which therefore seems more humane, but at least on the surface or initially seems less capable of achieving the objectives, that, you know, achieving this virtue. They ultimately do, which I, you know, there is a positive portrayal of the Zulu's there, way more organized.
You don't see them bickering the way that the British do. In fact, you don't even see them talking all that much because they all kind of know what it is they're supposed to do. And those who do deviate get punished very quickly. There's a scene with that.
So I think it's not really, we don't really see them present at all, really internally, right? We only see them as sort of, and we don't see any interns. There's zero dialogue. The only dialogue, the general, that's it, right?
He's at the very beginning he speaks to the priest. Yeah, that's right. And he laughs. Yeah.
And they talk about their going to go to something like this. Yeah. Yeah. And there is one moment of, of, of insubordination where one of them goes and grabs, when the zoos are getting ready for war and the priest is leaving, the movie, one of the zoos grabs, grabs the girl, trying to stop them from leaving, even though the order's been given or whatever.
And the chief orders have killed immediately with that question. So I think that backs up Greg's point quite well that, you know, something as small as that, which, you know, there's no violence has been done, but just that level of insubordination has enough to be expelled. And the commands are by and large, not audible. I mean, there's some musical sort of chance in these things, but there's a lot of hand motions, right?
The general will raise his shield or raise his spear and that does signal for one side to do X, Y, or Z. So yeah, we don't see any dialogue on their part. I was, I have silly questions. I'm sorry.
When the part of what's impressive about the zoos is when they attack, they seem to not regard their life as important. But and while they're attacking, they're chanting. And then at least one of the scenes, is this a silly question? What are they chanting?
Are they chanting Zulu? I mean, I guess like it's like it's terrifying when they're going out and they're just when they're beating the, they're beating the shields, right? Yeah. Yeah.
I thought they were chanting Zulu. I really don't know. I have a vibe. That's what I thought.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's there, they're at once admirable, but also kind of inscrutable. I think that's the way that they take away is you just, you can't understand the inner workings because it works so well.
It's almost invisible, right? It just, it just kind of happens. That actually lends to even though the film, even though it was, you know, filmed in the early 60s. There's the, it's done so well that there's this terrifying quality to the, to the power, but uniformity of the Zulus.
Just when you see a force and it could be anybody, but when you see them line up on the ridge line and then you see these heads and bodies just start to stand up and before you know, and the camera has to pan back to capture the many thousands of Zulus on the top of the ridge line and the music sets in and then you see the contingent of British soldiers. It's just like 30 or 40 of them against thousands used to terrifying. And I think it's made all the more terrifying because the film does not extend the same speaking roles. This has to be on purpose to the Zulus.
So they're just seen as this like a, this force that just doesn't stop and it's just the waves. I mean, this also for listeners is how a lot of the movie, it's like the first 20 minutes there's calm and there's some things we'll talk about the priest plays a role, but when the action starts, it's wave after successive wave of attack and you just think it'll never end. And it could never end. One thing on the unity of the Zulus, I was thinking is there seems to be an affinity the Zulus have for this preacher, right?
He's there visiting them and he's kind of honored, you know, being able to sit along and talk about the preacher who is. So there's an old man. We first see him he's with the king of the Zulus, chief of the Zulus, right? So it's kind of honored.
He's there to on a mission. He's then leaving and again, he's protected and allowed to leave. When he returns to the colony, we find out that he likes to drink a bit and he at one point and this is kind of the end of his role in the movie, he persuades the, are these Zulus or their natives who are working with the British, he persuades them to leave with some kind of a blue book, some kind of sermon ready, he's quoting from Proverbs and they all run off. So suggesting I think that the natives are somewhat more religious than the British are, he's then dismissed, wagging and made to leave because he's undermining their purpose, right?
They're trying to defend themselves them around. So, I mean, Greg, you've fallen prey to many a drunkard and preacher. Do you have anything to add on this? Well, your point about how the British seem not to be particularly pious.
I think that's right. There's at least one exception with the young man. But when the, is it the preacher that asked charter, you're a Christian and he just doesn't answer the question or maybe it's the preacher's dollar. But in any event, yeah, I mean, I think you're right.
These British, I mean, this sort of, this may be part of what it means to be an important decline to people who sort of don't believe in. You don't think they believe? I always got the sense of the one young man seems to me, the one, the one, the guy that's actually standing in guard of the priest. No, that guy said, yeah, I thought there was the, the tall Welshman with the handlebar mustache.
Oh, he knows the scriptures. He knows the scriptures. He knows the scriptures. He's the toughest guy in the entire.
Oh, no, I don't think he's, I don't think he's a believer actually. He said, he said, he basically quotes Eric, uh, Machiavelli that one time. What does he say? He's like, who we got our arms.
Or some of our guns and things. I just want to say it'll be a miracle if we win. He goes, yes, it'll be a miracle. And then he turns aside and says, uh, it'll be the guns and the bayonets.
That's the miracle. And also the, the preacher says, uh, do you want to say a prayer? And he says a bayonets is good. It's a prayer.
Right. Um, and I think the, I would go so far as to say, I think the preacher is lapsing a bit. I mean, he's, he's a drunk, right? He gets, he has to drink himself into a kind of religious fervor.
Otherwise he's just kind of scared and he's trying to just save them. Right. He seems a little too. This worldly.
Yeah. He also strikes me as being a little bit strangely enough. Uh, he also strikes me as being a relativist. So he seems to sit uneasy with his religiosity.
Right. Uh, his daughter doesn't understand that the opening scene, which took me a second fear. What's going on is this enormous dance ritual between, uh, marriage ritual, a marriage ritual between young Zulu girls, women, young women and older Zulu men. And it's a mass wedding and the daughter of the preacher asked the preacher, you know, this is horrific is disgusting that these young women are being asked to marry these old brave men.
Well, are we any better in Europe? I mean, young girls marry old men there, but it's for wealth instead of bravery. Aren't we sure maybe the Zulu's actually have a better and so that a couple of other things, uh, leave me believe that he's sort of on one of these very much committed to his Christian faith. I'm giving him a nice kind of, I mean, he's not British, isn't that right?
So he's not recognizing the superiority of the British empire. Uh, he seems to see these cultures as somehow even or equal. If anything, he actually may even find the Zulu is more impressive than the British. I think Greg liked the ceremony where these young women marry an old man.
That's very much to his mind. Um, yeah. So he's a, so I think he's a, but you know, listen, actually, I'm actually thinking, you know, I actually think that he's the most contemptible, uh, in a way, it's like, he's one of the more contemptible characters. Uh, the British, the whole, because of men like him, uh, what he's doing, uh, viewed over the course of generations is will essentially extinguish, uh, everything noble about those Zulu's.
So there's, if he's to preach them into, uh, his version of Christianity, uh, they lose what it means to be, to be a Zulu. Yeah, he's a pacifist. He doesn't think killing is, I mean, you guys correct me if you don't agree with it. I mean, he doesn't want anybody killed.
It's, it's not, it's not. He's just, he's just like scaredy. Oh, it's just that he's a pacifist. Well, I think, no, I've been fine.
Maybe his coward is, I mean, he's the principal coward. I mean, he's sort of using the, he's using his natural sentiments, maybe to back it up. But I mean, he's, d'Auchal got killed right? D'Auchal got killed.
And it's like, well, that's, I mean, you know, of course the illusions have argued about this for millennia, uh, whether or not the taking in the military battle is d'Auchal is that covered by the sanction. But I mean, it's not clear that he thinks, um, I mean, what's the alternative of that point? Do you think they could actually run and survive? I mean, there's, what would it entail if they, like they flee, it would mean leaving behind the sick and wounded.
And so you'd be leaving them behind for sure death. And that's certainly not noble. He seems, he seems to think they can throw them off quackens and get them all out of there. But the zoo we know can run for 50 miles.
It's not going to be, not going to be easy for sure to get rid of them. There's one, there's one plot thing that I don't know if you guys caught this, but one of the plot device at one point, Michael Caine's character, when the engineer, the two main British in charge, the engineer and the Michael Caine character, uh, Bronhead, Bronhead, Bronhead. So Bronhead's Michael Caine. So Bronhead says handsome handsome handsome.
He's very handsome, but charge handsome too, by the way, he kind of looks like a young Sean Connery to me. That's true. He's very handsome, fell too. Yeah.
I like different tastes. What you like blondes and I like for us. That's fair. That's fair.
Yeah. So, um, in Alex, like, you know, he likes, uh, you know, he likes a, you know, he likes a eight feet tall Welshman with a handle bar must start. Sorry. Yeah.
So, so Bronhead is, uh, he's doing his thing. What's he's he doing? So, so Bronhead is getting everybody together and bringing them together because they know that the zoo are coming and they know they're going to have to withstand this enormous attack from the zoo. And everybody, and he's making barricades, this, that, and the other.
And Michael Keynes character says, uh, why don't we just go cut them off in the past and I could at least sort of pin them down as they try to get through. And I just remember thinking of the time, why is that a bad plan? I mean, when you're outnumbered, I feel like that actually is a pretty good tactic to sort of catch them in the past. They've got to come through this past.
We know that. Why not go stop them there? I mean, I don't know. I have a, I have an answer to that.
Um, kind of like, yeah, he says this before we learn and before he admits the chart that he has no battle experience whatsoever. So Bromhead's, uh, like advice in, in, in war council on this point is all theoretical. It's bull, it's almost bullshitting is what I would say. Yes.
Yes. So that said, I mean, there is a scene or two where, um, uh, the engineer is unsure of where to place men. I think in Bromhead does point out like, well, he has the more, though a couple of times. And then there's, well, there's the Afrikaans.
Yeah. Guy that, um, that's they're fighting alongside the British. And that's just because of their hatred for the zoo, it was just a different kind of thing going on. Yeah.
And then it's not a good tactic. I don't know. I just remember thinking, well, that's a good idea. Yeah.
I mean, what they, maybe it could just be that, that the other guy's learning, the engineer's learning, right? Uh, that maybe it is a good idea. I mean, one of the, one of the way to contextualize this question is say there's kind of three authorities in this group, the engineer, the aristocrat, the holy man, the holy man is now a drunk, the holy man undermines the purpose of this, this new imperialism. The holy man's got to go.
So he's gone, right? So it's a sign that they're dismissing religion. And then there's the question of who should lead the old aristocracy, which is sort of a defeat and it's kind of lazy as you were pointing out, David, with the engineer, who knows how to build bridges, but that's a very different sort of constructive thing as opposed to a kind of destructive war tactic. And I think maybe the question is left open.
I don't know which way would it be? It's left or a marriage of the two, because we see that Brom heads that some of the virtues that Brom had instills in the men or some of the customs of the singing, for instance, the choir that I joked about earlier, but in key points in the film, Brom heads virtues shine forth as a kind of, what is it called, like a companion to the virtues of his engineer counterpart, like the men sing to boost their spirits. That's useful. So it's like you still need those aristocratic elements, I think, even if they're not leading from the loom charge.
Yeah. And the guy who sings, he ends up being good as a lookout because he can call from afar because he's a base baritone. And he also, when they ask them about the Zulu singing at one point, says, oh, they're fine, but they don't have any tenors or something like that. And then they start singing back and forth prior to the last battle.
There's a Zulu singing and then this base baritone starts singing, everybody joins in and they're singing back and forth. This is amazing. Back and forth prior to just all that slaughter, probably the most brutal scene in the whole movie where it just looks like hundreds of Zulu's are just killed and their bodies are in a pile. And there is, I think, a connection there between music as somehow being able to create this unity among the people, among both peoples, as well as a kind of technical and alternate music, and then leading to this all-out warfare at the end, where the British actually stink together perfectly at that point.
We expand on that first moment. I mean, because this was a, there were two musical scenes that I want to talk about and this is one of them. Wow. Greg's gonna sing some show tunes again.
No, no, no. I'm just singing Lion King. I don't know any Lion King songs. I would sing or...
Oh, what I was gonna ask was, what is it? What's the one you like, guys and dolls? Or is it, or is it the, what's the one with the gangs? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, cats is what you do on the weekend.
I was like, I'm like, that's a different interest to yours. You trust stuff. You trust stuff. I killed a cat, don't you remember?
Oh, yeah, yeah. A few episodes back. Unbelievable. I was actually gonna try and do something kind of serious about music.
Yeah, no, no, let's do it. You're right, Greg. Thank you. No, I just, you guys are both Johnny.
So maybe you guys have actually had some time to reflect on this more than I have, but I do wonder about the role of music and military. Like they did this in the Civil War, right? The Revolutionary War. Think about the cadences, even though it's sort of Marine Corps boot camp.
Music seems to be somehow essential. You mentioned that they start singing and it calms their spirits, but then they all get putchered. There's this big slaughter. I guess I'm struck by this.
You know, what's going on in the soul of these men, the souls of these men as the singing is happening and what's, why does music have this caught me? Like here in the middle of battle, you start singing with your men that somehow gives you spirit is the power in this sort of forgetting is the power in the impression that there's music in the impression that there's order that there's but I mean, I'm really don't know. I think all those, no, Greg, that's all. I mean, that's all good.
Yeah. All of those things, of course. I think there's that scene where the Zulu's again, I mentioned a few minutes ago appear on the ridge line by the thousands is terrifying. And so the camera scene cuts back and forth from the ridge line to the faces of the British soldiers and they're terrified.
They're like, everybody's stricken with fear. But when saying starts, there's the aspect of self forgetting and then the aspect of a community. And then I think with each successive Zulu force that's beaten back, they form even closer bond. So you start to see when the first when the first waves come down from the mountaintop, the first waves of Zulu, there's a contingent of sickly soldiers.
Alex mentioned his favorite character in the movie hook hook is one of these men. They're on his men. They're on the men and or they're trunks and they're not really like hook is probably not really that. He doesn't seem to be really that sick.
He's actually there forced to fight because gambling debts or something back in Mary old England. So he's been sent to South Africa. And so at first when the Zulu's attacked, those guys don't do anything. They don't shoot.
In fact, hook keeps playing like essentially card games. And but then I think when they start to see what's happening, it's not just mere self preservation. They see other people being their brothers and comrades in arms are carried into the back rooms and being tended. And they have this fellow feeling is animated in their souls.
I think it's because they're not simply selfish. They're committed to a selfish society, right? Oh, that's even better. You know, this is we're not here to be killed.
We're here to gamble and drink and sing songs. And so there's songs I think have an ennobling quality in that regard because it speaks to their peacetime endeavors. So yeah, I think music can have that that ennobling quality. I mean, even if you're not normally courageous, I think it can really have a transformative effect.
I mean, David, weren't you assaulted recently and you were happened to be listening to Cardi B's WAP and you gave me Christian. Yeah, you offended off. If you're a severe with, yeah, and you had a bucket in a mop and you just managed to beat them off away from you. Yeah, it was that if it was three, it was 69 men and all at once in that I prevailed.
I'm not going to stop Greg. Isn't that a slur for the WAP? WAP? Yeah.
Yeah. Wireless access point. That's what it stands for. It's one of a song about wireless access.
One. Very popular one. Huh. I do want to Cardigan.
Cardi B. Cardi B. Like the second choice cardigan. No, no, it's a descendant of Cardio.
Yeah. Yeah, cut this whole. Hold on. I'm going to look up some lyrics to the song while you guys are talking.
We already know the lyrics. Right. The one thing I would like to talk about is how the engineer comes to rule essentially. I don't think you guys know what WAP stands for.
I think you guys started me to, I do rail it. I'm sorry. Unlike you. Unlike you.
We know what this means. This is really something. So look, I got, I'm trying to be serious here. I am.
Who would write such a thing? Do they play this on the radio? Where do we go for the music? Let's get back on board.
Music, I want to go to rulership. Okay. So you asked about rulership. So yeah, you were about the ascendancy or the way in which he comes to power.
Isn't it a matter of chance? Right. It's a matter of. It is kind of a matter of chance.
He just happened to get his conscription or whatever. Yeah. A couple months earlier than Bromhead the aristocrat. But I think in Bromhead treats him disdainfully when he first comes upon the engineer who's in waist high water, essentially trying to get this bridge built.
And he says a few cutting things. Right. He shuts off on a horse with his cape. He's going to go listen to the choir.
And then I think the engineer does, I can't recall now, but the engineer says, indicates I think before even they discussed the commission when they were each commissioned, he impresses Bromhead. I think with just his natural bearing, that's the argument I'm trying to make. And the seriousness with which he treats kind of the situation. So Bromhead and Bromhead also knows something that hasn't been revealed, namely that the guy that his only education and military matters is probably at Sanders and it's all theoretical.
And so he's like, well, he at one point subtly tries to insinuate that he's superior by saying, oh, well, from the general, I mean, my grandfather or something like that. Right. He's like, you know, if anybody's seen battle experience, that kind of thing, just that's not going to fly. That's like something.
Yeah. That's like saying, oh, my daddy, you know, he has a military experience. It's like, well, what about you? Right.
So I think sometimes he's attempts to impress, like he's very well dressed with this like cape thing. He's actually very clean and he's hunting exotic animals and his speech patterns are very emphasized and aristocratic. And, you know, he seems like he's trying to put on a bit of a show. And by the end of it, after the fighting's over and before the last battle, he's shaken to the core, right?
To the core. And he feels he's like, what does he say? He says, I'm ashamed or I feel dirty or something like that. He's really horrified.
He feels ashamed. Yeah, because he's really committed to a kind of sort of noble leisure or a kind of aristocratic leisure and a life that that is dependent on, yeah, well, it's interesting that Bromhead's the Bromhead's whole existence, right? Or the Bromhead's in aristocratic England is in a way dependent on the savagery and the outskirts of the empire. And it's an empire that's coming to a close at that time.
Well, it's still a few decades off. You know, this actually brings me back to something you said earlier, where we were talking about, well, who ought to rule? And it's a matter of chance. We don't know whose tactic is better than you proposed, I think, Stuley David, that it's some kind of combination.
And if you look at the end of it, the engineer appreciates the music, I think Greg pointed that out. And the aristocrat, I think, appreciated the tactic. The last time basically involves a line out front. They shoot a bunch of them down and they retreat to the second set of bags of like meal bags.
And they have three layers of people shooting. And they shoot one after another, almost like a machine, like fire reload as they're reloading the people behind the fire as they reload, people behind the fire, then the front line is now ready to shoot. And they're going that and it's massive sort of it. It's a kind of work of engineering, right?
It's kind of technical power. And I don't think they lose a single person during that last, on the way they lose some people. But in that last set of three layers of shooting, I think they, so they kind of, I think we're to appreciate how both technical competence and sort of the arts or these leisurely activities are both important to a community. I think that if what you're saying, I agree with what you're saying that, to bring it back to Greg's correct defense on how, why movies are important and how they can be the proper source of political philosophy in their own right.
Maybe not to the depth of, you know, platonic dialogue, but still with enough depth, that worthy of study. If what you're saying a second ago, Alex is true, then this is a deeper movie than I think because it's a regime in microcosm and it's a mixed regime also at that. And so this is potentially like a deeper, a deeper, they're too much deeper aspects of this movie than simply, oh, it's like a war between two people, you know, during the high of the British Empire. Yeah.
I mean, we start off by saying this is a stress, this favorite movie. And I think you can see why it's got themes of, you know, agents versus moderns, right? Civic unity versus kind of selfishness. What's the place of religion in society, music and politics?
I mean, these are themes from the Republic, from Akhil Ali, right? Some of his, his favorite authors and his, you know, most, you know, beloved books. And you do really appreciate that. And I think that's why it's still relevant after, you know, what has it been?
Fifty some odd years that this movie has been out. Yeah. Do we have any, any concluding thoughts, any final questions for a mailbag? I'm, I'd rather than should be turns in the back, Greg, you got anything?
No, I mean, I think there was, there's another odds and ends, but I think we hit on so much of the big stuff. I mean, I had some little stuff on the technology, but you've hit on the big. I actually, I have a question. I have a question.
What's here? The, this is something I can't, I can't square. So we talked about this at the beginning of the film, one of the Zulu's tactical slides of hand involved sending in warriors merely to beat with the intention of seeing them gunned down so that the general on the Ridgeline can count the number of British guns, right? So that would indicate that there's a kind of like that lives are expendable up into a point, right?
But that at a minimum, they're willing to send in Zulu's to die. So why does the battle conclude? Like there's still, you know, hundreds of not a thousand Zulu's on the Ridgeline. I don't understand.
Like they had to have witnessed the impact that they were the negative impact in toll. They were taking on the British contingent. It's like a night had passed before the battle takes place during the day, during the night, during the morning, up to midday or something like this. By that last scene that Alex just described, they're totally spent.
I mean, they're spent bodily that there's death everywhere. They can't go on. They've barely had anything to drink. There's the scene where they're trying to lap up water, like, like dogs.
And it's these guys that they can't fight anymore. So I don't understand why the Zulu's then decide, OK, well, it's not, it's not we're fighting this battle anymore. And they salute the British soldiers through song and then kind of film ends. You guys have a theory on why it ends?
Like in the way, you've revealed how corrupted by modernity you are. I mean, so when they when they're seeing it, the end, they don't understand what they're saying, obviously, until the Afrikaans guy translates it, but he says, oh, they're they're talking us. They're egos are so big, you know, but that's not what they're after, right? They're not after they're not imperialists, the Zulu's right.
They're not after wealth. They're not after the, you know, mastery of a continent or something. They live there and that's their way of life. And this is sort of kind of acceptance of the traditional ways, you know, with, with sort of full endorsement, then the Afrikaans guys is no, no, they're saluting fellow Braves.
So I think they recognize that the people they've been fighting, maybe unlike the column that they should destroy the day before, I think at this point, two days before, I think they realized that they're something else. And they're different and they're noble or worthy of honor. And so they salute them. They fought, they defended themselves.
They've been, you know, decimated, but there's there's not much reason to fight them anymore. They might because it was never originally about just wiping them out. Yeah, so the society committed to selfishness, the sort of the British Empire, as it's presented, right? Even if that is a kind of noble striving in a way, right?
You want to perfect the selfishness, but the society committed to selfishness can't understand them, right? Why they wouldn't destroy them. But the society committed to something like civic unity when witnessing it, thinks it's beautiful, doesn't want to destroy it. Now, they don't understand.
I think the Zulu's don't understand why the British unified and how sort of messy it was behind the scenes. But what they see in the last scene is an amazingly executed tactic and they honor them and depart. They've done, you know, what they came to do more or less and they're happy with letting these people live. I think that's, it would be ugly to destroy them.
Yeah, no, that's good. Yeah, okay. Go. Mailbag, Greg.
Greg, to inform you that the mailbag doesn't have a lot of questions about Zulu, but it does have a question about David, actually. What? It's, they got some questions about David here. I didn't see that.
It's right here. In the mailbag. I didn't see that. You didn't see it?
It's, why are you never prepared with the runs of show? It's from a LXP lover of five. But the only ALXP lover I know is you, Greg. So do you want that question?
No, I, no. Okay. I don't know. I don't know.
We should tell people where they can watch Zulu. You can't get it through iTunes. You can't get it through Amazon Prime. You can't get it anywhere except for free on the Internet.
So you can't actually pay to watch it. I watched it on a platform called Plax and then where else did you guys watch it? Daily motion or something like that? Yeah, I watched it on the Roku channel.
Roku channel. Yeah. So Google it. You'll find a copy out there.
It's really good. Can our next, can our next movie be a comedy? Would that be given what we're trying to do here? I found that drunken preacher quite, quite titillating and delightful.
Yeah. Maybe brought back that members for you, Greg. That's it for this week. Thank you for joining us at the New Thinkery.
That's right. Like subscribe. Like, yeah. For you.
Right. I'm so tired of going through this. You should be all every time. We don't know.
No, it's very important. Yeah. Don't forget to donate. We're very hungry for your money.
Yeah. Greg will do anything. Ten dollars. Goodbye everybody.
It's been fun. Ten dollars will get you the f*** world.