Hello and welcome to the Get to Life podcast where we have conversations about organ tissue and eye donation and transplantation. You can always find us at thegiftedlife.org. I'm Laurie Steele. I'm Joey Boudreau.
I'm Nyla Schwab. Coming up on the Gifted Life today. Pig to human organ donation. We'll be talking to the people on the forefront of this groundbreaking research.
And we're also going to talk about resilience. When we face difficulties, resilience can be a roadmap where we can come out stronger and adapt to our difficulties. I love it. All that and more right here, the Get to Life.
Hang with us. Here on the Get to Life podcast, some amazing news. Our jaws are still dropped by this news. Just to fill you in on some background.
In 2021, a University of Alabama at Birmingham Medical Team transplanted two pig kidneys into a brain dead human recipient. So obviously a major step toward future pig kidney transplants to people with kidney failure. So just that is like, wow. But everything that went into it to make that happen is incredible story in itself.
So Alan Sprigs joins us now. He's the program manager of authorization development for Legacy of Hope. Alan, we appreciate you. You're joining us.
We've been anticipating getting to sit down and pick your brain about how all this played out. So thanks for joining us here on the Get to Life. Thanks for having me. Alan, this is Joey.
I was curious. This is something that we had no idea here. And I know you guys are in Alabama just a couple of states away. I communicate often with Christy, Kay, he there, kind of my counterpart.
And all of a sudden I hear about this, I read about this in the news. I'm like, oh my goodness. What? So can you tell us a little bit about the backstory, but how you guys kept that on the wraps and how it all sorted?
Sure. And for obvious reasons, you have to sort of be careful what's put out there early and things like that. And within the leadership team, it's something that we discussed a little bit after our executive team at works and collaborated with UAB and the surgeons there. Sort of trickle down to the rest of the leadership team as far as preparation and starting to look into what this would actually look like as a program.
And really, I think there's a lot of mental preparation aspects of what are these conversations going to look like? What families are you going to consider for the project? And those different things. So it was good to have a little bit of preparation knowing that it was coming.
You sort of wanted to keep it under wraps from the majority of the group, just for that little bit, that sort of opening time frame. And so it was just, it was communicating within our group and just making sure we were sort of holding each other accountable as far as that kind of thing. And so that was pretty smooth from that standpoint. So of course, we're talking about xenograph transplant.
We're talking about transplanting a pig's organs into a human. So you can't just go, these research projects take some time. You can't go from kind of preclinical small stuff to all of a sudden, we're jumping into transplanting someone who's on the wait list. So how did you guys decide to transplant into a brain dead patient who would generally consider donors?
Sure. And that's a great question because from the very beginning, and I'm sure working with OPOs, you're aware, there's a delicate balance and every single organ donor, potential organ donor is critical. It's lysating or could be lysating, of course. So we had to protect that process until we got to really the VCA portion of it because really we were looking for a potential donor who was really medically unsuitable to actually be an organ donor, a patient that had been ruled out for some type of pats medical history or what have you, maybe a cancer diagnosis or something like that.
So somebody who would be declared brain dead, of course, in a lot of cases, maybe registered already because that would at least help the intention part of the program. But you wouldn't be actually risking an organ donor case. And there's several reasons there why that would be so important, but it was really in our initial cases, that was the type of potential donor we were looking to identify. Now it did turn out that on this particular case, he was still a potential renal donor.
Other organs had been ruled out at that point, but he was still a potential renal donor, and yet he fits profile and we were a little unsure because of some other historical, class medical history things and some other clinical picture. We were a little unsure if there would be an organ place or transplant. So we went ahead and considered him for the Zino transplant program. So lots going on.
I mean, I can hear it and I can feel like all of these things are happening. And then you would have to get the consent of this family. So we've done a little bit of research. We've watched these news clips.
So we know it's the family of Jim Parsons. We know that he was a registered donor. We know that he was hurt and a dirt bike crash, that's something he loved to do, but he was declared brain dead. And then what are those conversations?
And when do you approach? And does that look the same as a normal approach when you're going into it? So take us down that road. Well, in this case, again, the reiterate, he was already an organ donor case that was sort of on our profile.
And so our family support coordinator had already worked with the family. They were in support of his registry to be an organ donor. He had been declared brain dead. But and then, you know, at that point is where because of medical suitability, other possibilities were being lost and we sort of identified him as this candidate.
And so I worked with the family support coordinator, explained the program to her and let her know that at that point it was a little bit under wraps. But I did want to, I wanted her opinion and we wanted her to share the family dynamics and first of all, did she think this would be a positive thing for the family moving forward? What was their sort of frame of mind? So again, we step back and they were still thinking organ donor mode at that point.
And so we were trying to keep both possibilities existing. And so initially our coordinator, our family support coordinator had said, you know, they were frankly a little bit frustrated a little bit with the process timing and things like that, which is very natural in the order of business that we do, of course. You know, that's probably 50% of potential organ donor families are working on our families are, you know, have some type of time, you know, just trying to make arrangements and set things up and very natural issues, of course, for anyone who's lost someone that they love. So, so we went back and forth and I explained this to her.
I said, well, you know, I'd like to have a conversation with this family about participating in the Xenoprint Transplant Program. If they're interested, I said, you think about it for a few minutes and then let me know because you know the family I don't. And what we want is we want a positive experience with this family. If you think it's anything that's going to add in any way, you know, a negative connotation to the participation that they already have in the program, we don't want to do that.
You know, our donor families are precious to us and precious to all of the POs. And so we want to make sure that this is going to be a positive for them. And she called me back just a couple of minutes later and she said, you know, I thought about this for a second. She said the wife or ex-wife actually, which I think is really great part of the story was the spokesperson for the family, even though they had been divorced.
She said, let me have a conversation, you know, with her. And then we talked about that. And she said, well, how about I have the first conversation with her and I let her know that you and I had talked. You sort of introduced her to me just through conversation.
So I did call the ex-wife of Mr. Parsons and had a conversation and explained that to her, explained the program to her. And it was difficult to be 100% honest with you. And you know, I've had conversations about donations with families many times over the years, but this was something a little bit different.
And so, you know, we had put together a little bit of a plan with the surgeons that what I would do is primarily talk to the family about participation and really what could be a groundbreaking research project without sharing both of the details. We felt that the clinical details related to where the kidneys were coming from and what all that would look like and everything would be probably better coming from the surgeon. And so my initial conversation with the donor family was just that. We looked like we may be running out of options as far as organ donation, you know, from what you shared with our family support coordinator.
This is a very generous person. You know, we of course know that he had registered himself and they were already working through the organ donation process. There may be something else out there. And I did.
I let her know that this would be or have the potential to be very revolutionary and groundbreaking. And they would be one of the first to participate. And, you know, she's a little bit of a quieter person. And so I could tell she was reflecting a little bit.
And then she said, you know, something along the lines of paraphrasing, of course, he would have liked to have done that. That's something he would have said yes to. She did say, let me talk to his kids. He has teenage, I believe teenage, well, young adult children, several of them.
She said, let me have a conversation with them. And I said, if you'd like, you know, we could come and talk to you or have you or explain things to the kids and things like that. And she said, well, let me just have a brief conversation with them. But I think we'd like to talk to the surgeon and get all the details.
And so that we sort of did it a step by step process like that. She called me back and she said, she'd like to talk to the surgeon that they're definitely interested. And so that's when we connected her with Dr. Lock on a three way telephone call between herself, myself and Dr.
Lock. And Dr. Lock explained the process. She was wonderful.
She said, I'll come up there and meet you, you know, drive to you or, you know, you can come down here, whatever works best for you, we could do it over the phone. And they were, they were energized by it. You can tell. It was something that a lot to them pretty quickly.
And so they were on board. Definitely. What were some of the questions that they had? Was it just curiosity like us?
What does this mean? Or were there any trouble spots for them? Like, what was that looking like? It was a lot of, and it was a lot of what you anticipate, you know, how's this going to work?
How long is this going to take? You know, where is he going to be? And those, all those things were just so different. You know, usually we're, it's the opposite.
We're talking about how we can minimize time and how we could get to the funeral portion, the postmortem care and all those kinds of things sort of as quickly as we can. And this was extending this process. And what originally was possibly up to a week and having the patient brought to our recovery center in Birmingham. And once we had all those conversations and doctor lock out all those conversations, Mrs.
O'Hare, her name, XY, she was the conduit. She was the spokesperson for the family. So almost every conversation we had, she turned around and had a conversation with his, his children as with Mexican. And we still went through the process that way.
That really speaks to Jim and of course the family's generosity to go to shift that thinking, because I, again, I've been in the industry for 20 years and I completely understand families, you know, as you mentioned earlier, they're ready to move on with the next steps, you know, they're ready to go and to the funeral home planning and have the friends, you know, arranging all that to take place, family coming in, things like that. So to then shift from, you know, that thought process to, okay, now we have to wait an additional possibly week. That's, it's pretty amazing of them to be thinking, you know, of all, first to be thinking of all, you know, saving other lives and then to shift that to be thinking, wow, this is, you know, we'll still stay in for this amount of time. Sure.
And I'll tell you the one thing to me, it had, as far as a human interest story, a little bit of extra, I don't know, maybe emotion, maybe emphasis on what donation does, you know, one thing that I've always tried to help teach our staff through the years is, you know, when you have a family that's maybe separated, maybe there's divorce or maybe they're angry at each other, you know, some families are just very, actually, you might have, as you all know, you know, you might have a bunch of people on this side, a bunch of people on that side. And sometimes you even sense that one person is saying no to donation, you know, really because the other person is saying yes. And you know, you're, you're sort of working through those things so that no one makes a decision based on, you know, that type of motion that's they're going to regret a little bit later. And so to me, you know, we're always trying to talk to families about, hey, you know, this is a one time, this is about the person that's laying in that bed right now.
And I understand, you know, that it's very difficult. And you know, we can see some divide here, but donation is the one thing that brings people together, at least for this little bit of time, you know, where we all need to sort of unite and get together and think about what's in the best interest of that person is laying in the bed there? What would they want? What would they say?
What would they do? And so this family was very unique in that we're actually not even talking to the legal next again, we're talking to the ex-wife. And but you know, legally we're, you know, recovering everything we're going through, the motions and having this recorded and being signed and all those things. But we were primarily speaking to the ex-wife of the donor, and yet she was so professional.
And so she just made it happen. You know, she just made it happen. She knew the type of person that he was. And even though, you know, their relationship didn't work out ultimately, she was also advocating for her adult children and what they would want.
And so, you know, she did it beautifully and later on, they became more a part of the process and then they became part of the news conferences and those types of things. And you can see the impact it made on them as well. What an amazing mom. And she was the first person to ever, her kids knowing what, you know, how broken they were and still taking charge in that situation.
And I'm glad you said it that way because you're exactly right. That's what she was doing. She was being a mom, you know, and a wife, even though she was the next wife. You know, she was putting herself in that position because somebody needed to be there.
And she stepped up and she was a hero that day too, in my mind. They all were. What were the emotions like when all of a sudden now you've got urine, you know, now the kidneys are working and you can actually, you know, that's the thing about kidneys as opposed to liver. Liver, you can't really tell stays inside, right?
Sure. You see when the kidneys are working. And all of a sudden now you've got gym and with functioning kidneys from a peak. So what was that?
What that looked like? Well, I tell you, it's fun to talk about this a little bit about such a serious subject, but you see how much impact it made on the people and that does make it, you know, a wonderful thing. It's hope for so many. Sure.
Absolutely. And so with the way we had set things up, Dr. Locke from UAB thought it was very important that we communicate with the family each day since their loved one was going to be under our care at our facility in Birmingham. And, you know, we wanted to make sure we all thought it was very important that it was the three of us that talked.
And so I would call Miss O'Hare every day at a certain time and then I would three-way add Dr. Locke in and we'd get an update from Dr. Locke about how things are looking. And so she took us through those steps each day, each morning.
And yeah, it was okay. We've can't relate it. We've gone through the process so far as it looks good. The next morning is just like you all, it's said, there's urine now, you know, and this is working and we're taking an ultrasound of his heartbeat, you know, from that process.
And you can hear each step, you can hear maybe a little bit of silence, like Miss O'Hare was sort of thinking and processing. And then you can just tell what it meaning it had to her and how much it meant to her and how much it was going to mean to her family when she shared those things. So I think that daily communication was amazing. I think it was great for the family and all the way through, really, through the entire process, any communication we kept between the three of us throughout the process, even down to having met at our facility and Dr.
Locke and some of the other staff there, UAB and myself and Miss O'Hare met at our facility there in the office to exchange some things and just to meet and that was at the end of the process and have some of those forms filled out and things like that for opportunities like this. And so it was a great process all the way through. And it really, I think, benefited everybody that was involved. I'm just in awe of the family.
I work out in the community. So just simply talking about death, people are just scared. But Jim had already made that decision. He was a registered donor, so they didn't have to worry about that.
But this was new, unchartered waters. Surely had lots of questions like what's going to happen. So when you see interviews with them now, the videos that I'm sure you guys were a part of and help push out, the children are so proud. And they're like, look at this legacy of hope that he's providing to help fight this organ shortage like our dad.
And so that kind of resonates with me because it was uncertain at the beginning and sounds like a good thing. But I think now they're kind of seeing those ripple effects, would you say? Sure. Absolutely.
And to take us that back real quick, I think it would be a mistake not to add. There were bumps along the way because it was the first of this particular program. We kept running in things I'd have to call her sometimes multiple times in a day and say, OK, well, no, this is actually the form that they want for the funeral home, more for death certificates. And this is where we're going to send the body up.
That form was the wrong one. Just those kinds of things going back and forth. There was some of that. I think that's involved in a lot of new processes in the field that we're in and really in the medical field in general.
But the big thing was all the major parts, the legalese and all those kinds of things were very meticulous and taken care of. So it was really just process of when do we do this or how we do that and who do we talk to on this one. And you think you have everything completely worked out before you walk into your first one. And you see later on, and it was not new to me.
I was glad that I participated. I was able to participate in a lot of hand transplant activity and things like that. And my past experience where some of the things were brand new. So I sort of anticipated some of those rough patches.
And so I think that was, I think it made it okay that I could call and talk to the family and say, you know, I think this is normal. I haven't seen this particular project with similar projects in the past where this is part of the benefit of being one of the first. It's going to be once we get you through it and you get us through it and you get the sort of the pride and the legacy part. That's what this really all about is the legacy part for Mr.
Parsons and for the family. Once you get to experience that, you know, then you'll see, you know, that all these other things were just things you had to work through. You talk about legacy, you know, and we talk about legacy often with organ donation and transplantation obviously. And this is such a different type of legacy, right?
So it's, you know, normally we'll, you know, we'll send them letters and let them know that their loved one was able to save three or fours, you know, five lives through donation. And in this situation, Jim, maybe leaving a legacy of hundreds of thousands, you know, or amazing, you know, amazing. Yeah. And they got that early on, which is, I think, I think Dr.
Locke did a great job sort of presenting that probably better than anyone else could have. And they got that it was important. They were, they were working for him, you know, which is really a cool thing to see that his family was working for him after he had already passed on. You know, they thought it was important because, you know, they did see it as a legacy thing.
And so, and it is, it will be like you said, for, for how many people, you know, will we ever even know how many people with this effect. Amazing. You know, sort of the same thing we would share with any potential donor family because they're all making an unbelievable impact is, you know, you're going to look back, whatever date it is, you know, you can look at today's date and say, you know, this is the day you lost your son or your mom. You know, we can't change that 10 years from now.
You're going to look back on this day and it's always going to be the day that you lost your loved one. But can we add something to try to help feel, feel that whole in your heart? You know, that maybe try to help you heal a little bit and things like that. And this was very much the same for the family.
So. And then as far as laying Jim to rest, was that all normal as the family wish? Like if they wanted an open casket, were they able to do that? All those steps the same?
Absolutely. Except for an extension, of course, of time. And it was not the full week. They had the information that they needed after a few days.
And then yeah, it was, you know, working with funeral home, making those arrangements for transportation. You know, organ donation is very important for the public themselves to realize it's not something that's going to preclude from having a open casket viewing. If that's what a family would like, it's not something that would, of course, be a financial burden to the family. You know, those things are taken care of outside of, you know, the actual treatment of the patient.
But anything related to the donation process or this process was not something that the family is going to have to worry about either. So very similar, it sort of reverted back to, you know, an organ donor case once the actual clinical part was over. So amazing. I think we could talk to you all day and pick your brain.
We are going to continue this conversation. Alan, we're going to have Dr. Locke and one of your counterparts drew on our next podcast to kind of go more into the science of how this all came to be. All thanks to Jim Parsons and saying yes in his family.
So thanks so much for your time today. Well, you're all very welcome. I appreciate it. All right.
On the Get to Life podcast, we take a moment for mental health. Yeah, now what do we have on top of the day? Oh, today is one of my favorite words, resilience. And if I try to say it too fast, many times, I will get on top of that.
So it's just, it's a great word. And I think that a lot of us do it and we don't even realize we're doing it. So unless you can really name it, then you can't call on it later when you need it. So resilience, if you want to, you know, dictionary term, what it is, it's the ability to recover from or adjust.
I think Webster's dictionary says from being crushed. And you know, at times like what we deal with, we see where people are crushed with tragedy when you lose a left one. And so resilience is a way that you can come back from that, maybe stronger. So what we're going to do is really talk about what it is, what it's not, and then what you can do with that word.
And so what it is, is if you want nihilist definition, let's say a GPS, because, you know, we all have this course in life where we can, where we want to go, but sometimes we're just hit with things that we didn't expect. Right. I was telling my kids that you got to be ready and you got to land on your feet because life happens. Life happens.
How do you react to that? And I want them to be ready for that. How do you teach that? Yeah, we're going to get to that.
You can teach it. So that's exactly it. So in our roadmap, like we can make a wrong turn and the GPS tells us it says, take a right, do a U-turn. And so sometimes in life, we need somebody kind of helping us to say, stand up, get out of bed, turn, push forward.
And so hopefully we may end up on a whole different route than what we expect it, but we're still eventually going forward. And that's resilience. What it's not, it's not about being happy or faking it till you can make it. It's more about emotions are hard.
It's difficult. It's not a person is still facing difficult times. It's not a personality trait. So it's not something that you're just born with that you can't learn it or increase that skill.
So when we talk about, is it something that anybody can do? Yes. It's talking about the ordinary, not the extraordinary. So even the army teaches what is called the master resilience training.
And that's where they teach the upper level in the army so that they can go back and continue to teach that downward so that that becomes a stronger unit. So it's teachable. So what are some things that you need? There's four components that they suggest, which is connections, wellness, healthy thinking and finding a purpose.
And so you can really go in depth and all of that. But we're going to keep it short. We're going to keep it simple. And when you think about just your connections, where is that?
Where is that? What is that? That's asking for help. That's building your support system.
It's really understanding that we need community in our life. Wellness, what is that? Well, wellness is really taking a routine and putting it in place. And for somebody who's lost somebody, when you ask, how are you doing?
And sometimes that family will tell me, well, I got out of bed. And you think that's routine and you did it. You got out of bed. Yeah.
Yeah. But the fact that you're moving forward is helpful. We have a friend who just lost a spouse and so I would check in every day and just say, did you eat today? Because you're in one of our previous conversations, oh, I forgot to eat today.
And I was like, oh, I can help remind you to do small. But he's, I really just didn't take the time to do it. Like I'm just trying to keep busy until I get to bed. Just to make it through the day.
Yes. Yes. And then there's the wellness part. And we forget sometimes when we are in a really difficult place that we still have to take care of our bodies.
Take care of you. And that's hard to do. So you can remind somebody drinking water. Just those little things.
And then she went to she had skin cancer in her family. So she was just very smart about it. War hat, Warr's on screen was covered from head to toe, went outside, never saw the sun. And then she started losing all her hair.
She eventually lost all her hair. And after many, many visits, they found out because she was so covered, never got vitamin D that it was actually, it caused her hair loss. So just those little things. So she had to get out in the sun 15 minutes a day without sunscreen.
Well, I mean, talk to your doctor before you do that. But that was her case. Another thing that we want to talk about is just healthy thinking. And we do have some control over our thoughts.
We have random thoughts that pop in our head. It doesn't mean they have to stay there. And sometimes just if you're having some hard thoughts in your head, sometimes just standing up can make a big difference. Walking into a different room can make a big difference.
Calling a friend. So just changing those thoughts. Yes, taking a shower. Yes.
Makes a difference. And then finding a purpose. And I would say that's, I don't know. Something as simple as going to help someone else.
So I talked to a gentleman who had lost his wife. And we were talking about how he was doing. And he said, I've just been having a hard time. And what I do is I go help someone else.
And I said, well, what did you do? Because every day I find a way to help someone else. And he shared that that day he'd gone to Walmart. And he was walking out.
He thought, I'm so sad. So he said he opened the door and stood in the door and greeted people that came through. And somebody grabbed his arm, a sweet woman, and just said, thank you, sir. And he said, it just made me think my wife is proud of me.
So you know, we, there are little ways to make a purpose. There's all sorts of little things that we can do to help each other be resilient. And I see that with LOPA. I see it where I work.
I see that our coworkers are helping each other. I see it with our families who say yes to donation. And they're taking something very tragic. And they're trying to make meaning out of that to help someone else and move forward.
And then I see it with our recipients. Our recipients who are so resilient to be so sick to get on the wait list and then receive that gift and then have to recover from it. And when they call to say, hey, how can I thank my donor family? And I don't know how.
That's a great conversation to have. And it's about becoming stronger and more adaptable in our life. I like that. I think a lot of people just want to help.
But how do you do that? So these are little simple things that we can all do for each other and for our families too. Yeah. I like that.
I want to think. I love it. Okay. So I have to end on Happy Note.
Yeah. And so there's a little story. It's a children's book. And so it's that little boy named Little Louie.
And Louie just wants to tell his little story. And everything gets in his way. He gets messed up. He stutters.
He just struggles with it. And so he's getting so upset. And somebody says, stop. Breathe.
Just relax. Anyway, he thinks about it. And they said, just tell your story. And so he told it.
And he ended up really liking his story with all the imperfections, all the hiccups, and all the people that were with him smiling. He thought, I like my story. So our life is a lot about imperfection. And it's about coming together and working toward this kaleidoscope.
I mean, our life is just little pieces that all come together to make something really beautiful. I like that. I'll take a note. Okay.
I like that. Nyla. All right. Maybe you have a topic you'd like us to cover here at the GiftedLife, just email us info at thegiftedlife.org.
And our question and answer segment. This came to me at a community event. We have a recipient who is out serving popcorn, greeting people, and just so happy and joys to be out there. And then during the middle of the event, said, hey, can I ask you a question?
And I'm like, yes, anything. And she said, so every year on my anniversary, I write a letter to my donor family. And I haven't heard back. Do I keep writing?
Do you have any suggestions for that? So I thought that may be good for us to kind of talk about here on the gift of life. I think that is a great question. And I'm going to start with, I think it's going to be up to the individual.
It's whether they want to continue to write. Some families may find that very therapeutic or helpful is a better word. So yes, I would say if that helps you continue to write that letter, if you find that it's difficult, then I think there are other ways to honor your hero. And we never know what's going on with the donor family.
What's going on in their life? You can always refer a family back to our family services. And we try to tell all the families that we come in touch with and recipients. Our family services department is set up to be that additional support, that resource for families.
So we also try to get very creative, innovative. And so if there is a situation with a family member, we may try to reach out specifically to that transplant center. Maybe we can get some more information. Some families are hesitant to write.
Some families, some recipients just don't know how to say thank you. Which is, because those two simple words don't seem to be enough sometimes when you're saying thank you for a life. So we can work with that family and we can work with the transplant center. And because we don't have direct contact always with the recipients.
So great question. We're always here to help. And I hope that kind of answers that question. Although it's a little general.
Yeah, and I can share a little bit more. She said, I just hope that they are reading it to know how thankful we are and how special that loved one was. And they don't have to write back. But I feel like if I keep writing, maybe they'll keep reading and that's okay for me.
And I just thought that was beautiful and we could all share and use here. So that worked out well. Thank you. Thank you.
Great question. We love hearing from you guys. If you have a question, give us a call 504648347. In every episode of the gifted life, we honor a hero.
Today, we honor Javan Wiley. And this comes to us from his mom. Javan chose to be an organ donor at 15 years old at our local DMV. The excitement of finally receiving his driver's license did not overshadow his desire to help others.
He was asked if he would like to become an organ donor and he turned to me and looked with a confused look. He asked what that meant. I explained that if anything happens to him, his organs would be used to save others lives. Having a family member that has already received the kidney transplant, he immediately answered yes.
Every time he showed someone his license, he pointed out that he had chosen to be an organ donor. That was one of the proudest moments. And as a mother, it was one of mine. And now we pause and say thank you to Javan for the gift of life.
And that is episode 187, ladies and gentlemen. Thanks for listening. Remember, you can register any time as an organ, I and tissue donor at register me. That'll work.
Thanks to Alan Spriggs for coming on and sharing such an amazing story. And if guys, if this interests you at all, please listen to our next episode, you're going to hear more about it. Part two, stay tuned. The best place to find us guys at our website, thegiftedlife.org.
Listen there and find links to listen on Apple Podcast, Google Podcast, Spotify, I Heart Radio, or wherever you listen to podcast. And if you listen on Apple Podcast, please leave us a five star rating. It really helps others find our podcast. On social, you can like our page on Facebook, it's the Gifted Life Podcast.
You can also follow us on both Twitter and Instagram at Gifted Life Pod. Thanks for hanging out with us today. We'll be back next time. Until then, go out and do something you would normally do to help us make life happen.
Have a good one. This is a production of the Louisiana Organ Procurement Agency or LOPA, the Gifted Life is hosted by Lori Steele and Joey Boudreau. Our executive producer is Kirsten Heins, producer, Isha Long Caraway. Intern is Rebecca Rannam, and we are recorded, engineered and mixed in our Covington, Louisiana, studio by Troy Perez.