Every week JNI get dozens of phone calls and emails asking questions about materials and methods to make the home healthier today on non-toxic environments We're going to address a few of those questions and hopefully these are items. We haven't discussed yet on the show here on non-toxic environments Before we get to the show today, I'd like to just point out that we are entering the colder months of the year and With that also the holidays coming up. I just wanted to remind everybody that with the holidays coming up There might be a week or two that JNI just can't get to a recording a podcast I'd like to apologize for that right now if we can we're going to be recording in advance So we can still come to every week. There will be though a couple of weeks that we won't get out I just want to apologize in advance I know everybody that we hear from is always so excited for the new episodes And I feel a little bit guilty those weeks that I just cannot get an episode out.
So thank you very much for listening Thanks for your patience through these holiday weeks and all right now on to the show All right All right, Jay welcome back to non-toxic environments good to have you back again this week Yeah, I hear that it's snowing in Wisconsin snowing in Wisconsin. Welcome to winter wonderland. It's a little early isn't it? It's a little early, you know, every once in a while mother nature, you know speaks up and says don't forget about me.
Oh, yeah, yeah Yeah, it's nice. It's a it's a welcome change obviously the changes seasons Yeah, it actually has us thinking about indoor projects now, of course, you know And I think that's really the bulk of what we're gonna be talking about today I think we got a whole host of listener questions and you know folks we always get a ton of questions a ton of emails some speak pipe questions and You know this particular time of year a lot of that has to do with indoor projects And actually a few of the calls I took this week were from listeners of the show saying when are you guys gonna start answering some of those questions on the air? So here we go, right? Right.
This is it. All right time to get into the email bag. All right, Jay We got this question from Jodi this week and she said we're looking for a safe basement rec room floor option And we're considering something like a polished concrete floor I've read that a specific type of polished concrete floor finish sodium silicates is a safe way to go Do you sell the materials? Do you know anybody who can do this for us?
What do you think about this this application? Well, the first thing I think of is sodium silicate is what's known as water glass It's essentially a sodium silicates potassium silicates. These are mineral salts. They're called and mineral salts are designed to Penetrate into a cementitious material.
That would be concrete concrete block anything that's got lime in it and the silicates will react with the lime and Form like this crystalline structure sub surface It's fantastic for water, pellency and stain repellency and so forth But in an application where you're doing what's called a polished concrete floor. It's a little bit trickier matter of fact It's not only trickier, but it's a lot more expensive You actually have to apply the sodium silicate to the floor Let it penetrate a half hour later apply more essentially you're soaking it right and then you have to diamond grind the surface of the concrete and This is where it gets very expensive. You have to have the the contractor who knows what they're doing the equipment And you're looking at probably in the eight to fifteen dollar per square foot range just to accomplish this and once it's all done It's a beautiful polished concrete floor, but ultimately folks This is not what most people are really thinking about for a basement floor. No, no no basement floor I know that the modern the modern aesthetic now for homes where people want that look they can do it in their home But you're right.
I mean are you willing to spend the kind of money up front to do it right? Is it this is what they do it? I don't know whether they do this in the Nards or you are that's the big out-go home improvement story out here home Depot You know it's a big deal some years ago. They went to polishing all their concrete floors in their stores.
Yes Yeah, so that's a big machine. I saw them doing one I got there late one night and they were doing it with the machine looks like a Zamboni Exactly right exactly and they're essentially just grinding the floor To a very smooth it's similar to sanding and finishing a hardwood floor. Yeah, but instead of using sandpaper. They're using literal diamond grinding blades And what you do is you're soaking the concrete with the sodium silicate and then grinding you create this really beautiful polished floor It's great for new construction.
It's a little bit easier when you don't have a bunch of stuff in the way and you know years ago, there was a company called Ashford that really focused on this for commercial application, you know, it would stay beautiful for 40 or 50 years Oh, yeah, right That's the upside and if you're willing to drop the money in the front end You know that going down you know in the future if you're planning to spend your rest of your life in a home like that Or like that that makes some financial sense, but it's a big bite So what would you do Jay instead of that? Well, I area rugs would be a part of my plan just to soften it up I do like concrete floors I'm not opposed to using my topical coating on it As long as people understand the topical coating folks is a film forming coating There's many of them out there that go on concrete. Of course, they're safer ones AFM safe coat makes a safe one But you know the thing about the topical coatings as we mentioned in other podcast is what they're called sacrificial So what that means eventually they will they will sacrifice or wear themselves out to protect the surface underneath them And what that means then you have to go back and refinish them or some period of time that period of time varies depending on the product Depending on how you put it down everything being equal. That's done correctly And then it's just a matter of the time of wearing teretics.
What kind of traffic patterns you have How are you cleaning it? What's the UV exposure those kind of things will have an impact on all film forming sealer on any surface? Forget it's concrete could be wood or anything else. These are the things that will impact the longevity of that that service So yeah, I think the nice thing about putting a film former on there is you do have a choice You can have a choice between sheens you can get a gloss you can get a satin a matte There's all different sheen values So if you have you know desire for a lower sheen, you know because a polished concrete floor, you know, that's polished That's shiny.
There's some people who don't want that much shine They want something on a lower sheen level so the film forming products give you an opportunity to do that, right? I would agree with you pretty much 100% I think that's you know the the idea of putting a sealer and we hear this all the time I want to seal the concrete tonight. Yeah, what are we trying to seal in what are trying to seal out? ultimately people want to be able to have a floor that is easier to keep clean and a sealed floor is Properly sealed floor is easier to keep clean because dirt doesn't get worn in pushed in and trapped in those pores Maxa seal is a great great product for this application.
You know, this is the one we're shipping all over the country to the gap in banana Republic stores they see left their concrete floors are slate floors Very very durable material and I think in most applications in a residential project. It's perfectly acceptable very rarely Do you need anything that's you know more durable than the Mexico product? Yeah, I'd also suggest folks if you're gonna do a film former from any company try to get some samples and actually apply a little bit into An inconspicuous area in your floors and where because these coatings do have an effect on the appearance typically they'll darken the Service a little bit so you want to make sure that you like that most people think it's fine I say enhancing which I think sounds a little more palatable But it'll enhance the color and also you want to know what the sheen is gonna be when it's dry So you go out into the corner or if it's in a like a laundry space We're gonna have a door close or it's a closet some place if you aren't gonna see it all the time You can go in there and do your experiments make sure you like the look the other thing too is you want to make sure you're comfortable with the chemistry in the product? That's what you're gonna be living with so that's an important feature.
So no great idea All as always folks always test products and inconspicuous area to make sure that you like the look of it that it attaches or adheres properly And that it's from a health and safety standpoint. It's not gonna cause any adverse reactions Remember when you just put water on concrete. It's going to Reumulsify the the odors on the surface Yes, and as the water evaporates from a concrete surface it carries with it the smell of that concrete and we've talked about this in the past You know when somebody walks into a basement most often and they smell that musty smell That's actually the smell of partially the smell of lime in the concrete lime when it gets wet has a very distinct odor So when you're applying mexisile or any other water-based sealer onto raw concrete You're gonna smell that quite a bit for you know the first couple of hours as the material evaporates and starts to cure That's excellent point. That's actually a lot of people come into it thinking Oh boy, it's not gonna be any smell and then and then two things happen one the products aren't odorless There are very few folks that are listening there are odorless and we discuss this before there may be something going on there They're trying to hide the odor through using a masking engine of some kind So that's good You're gonna smell the product but you're also gonna smell the effect of the product is any just said you're gonna have that lime Smell coming up it's concrete You're gonna have that lime smell kind of coming up because the water has kind of activated that and now it's also part of that that odor event so but those things as Andy alluded to calm down as a water source and migrate out of there so I've got one here Andy This is we're talking about walls now switching from floors to walls.
This is someone in Virginia Christine is her name She says we've delayed our project in Virginia Meaning that we will likely be installing and priming so they're painting a product the dens armor plus dry wall got it for use in our Unconditioned basement in January February and March so okay, so they're in Virginia So they're gonna have winter Although we can manage the heat in the space with portable heaters We're not able to manage the humidity or the outside temperature Of course we can't manage that once April hits we will not be able to ventilate the space until June because they have pollen issues So they're trying to get this all done between now and March Question what happens if you indoor humidity levels dip below 30 is this a no-go when you're priming or painting? Well first off. Yeah The question no there's something else in here, but I want to address it before you do that this quickly Yeah, dens armor plus drywall so dens armor plus is It's a what's called an impact resistant drywall. It's actually a much more dense drywall or gypsum board And instead of using a paper coating it uses a fiberglass mat So this is what would be called a paperless drywall Abuse resistant Moisture and mold resistance just because of that fiberglass is no food source for mold It's actually our our go-to Drywall replacement on plenty of projects because you know without the paper that eliminates that as a food source for mold Right.
What is it? What about the decorating challenges of fiberglass versus paper? Are you getting a less smooth a rougher surface with a fiberglass? It creates challenges in the priming painting part of the project without a doubt It's it's you have to understand that when you're using something like a paperless drywall or Mgo board, you know magnesium oxide board These types of materials because they don't have the paper on the surface You can't just tape and mud the seams and then prime and paint you have to do what's called a skim coat of plaster over the entire surface Because there's such a difference in the porosity and the pH levels as well as the texture if you were to just prime and paint dens armor There's gonna be a vast difference in appearance between the bulk of the panel and where the drywall mud and tape is So you have to skim coat the whole thing.
Otherwise, it looks lousy. No way. I suppose it makes for cost So I guess there's a cost benefit on the other side of the equation, but there is what about that what about the humidity? I mean, I don't know that 30% is a problem.
Do you think that's a problem? You know 30% to me is not a problem. Yeah, you know, she did say well one of the dips below 30% Well, yeah, I didn't did I catch it right to she say that this project is in their basement? Yes, okay.
Unconditioned basement at the top of them. Okay, so when you're in a basement Generally speaking the temperature and humidity They don't won't really change too much After a certain point, it's very difficult for a basement to Go too much lower because you're in the earth you're gonna get some some moisture coming through the foundation into the the space The other thing is I actually am always more concerned about getting too high humidity You know if this project was in summertime, I'd be worried about you know needed to use dehumidifiers I think that I don't believe there's gonna be a problem with humidity specifically because if you You're doing denzammer and you're doing a skim coat of plaster over the entire surface You're gonna be adding hundreds of gallons of moisture into the air, right? So sure keep keep you know be diligent and and have a Hydrometer handy to check what the humidity levels are but I believe you'll probably have more of an issue trying to reduce the humidity From the process of installing and finishing the drywall They say here She's also wondering about it looks like that we're gonna be able to install the drywall and prime the drywall We won't be able to paint it for one to two months due to the ventilation during the spring So she's wondering about what storage or usage considerations should be be considering during this time So priming and they got it up. They primed it, but they can't paint it Well, do they prime it or is it do they just skim coat it?
That's the thing I see doesn't discuss the fact that they got a steamcoat it She I don't know if she knows that she's just saying we're using it So they haven't discussed that so that could be what that could be what they're gonna do They're gonna put install and skim coat and then they're gonna wait to prime paint But she just said priming a painting she probably doesn't realize I'm assuming assuming sorry her name's her name's her name's Oh Christine Christine if you're listening, I'm sorry I'm not sure that you maybe you may be doing something that you want to aware of you have to do Well, and that I'll be honest a lot of times this step is kind of forgotten about in the process because People just want to replace traditional drywall with a paperless drywall and don't realize that in order to get to finish nicely They have to skim coat it. Yeah, here's the way I would do it. I would skim coat it and prime it now Yeah, because it lays at least then the surface is sealed if you were to skim coat it and then let it sit For two months three months four months whatever it is I'm not sure you know We don't know what's going on in that space in that time That's gonna cause any dust and debris or anything that to get stuck up against the wall And we just don't want to be in a situation where we're having to do some repair work or some other type of preparation To get us to the point where we can even prime again, right? Yeah, but as far storage and so forth, you know, I think it's always just a good idea if you're not going to finish the project all together I would actually put up some Protection some zip walls or something to protect the surfaces, you know Primers and paints are designed to be used together.
They work as a team and you know a primer is only as good as the paint that goes on Top of it and vice versa, right? And I just a note folks with your storing codeings be sure that they put someplace where they're not gonna freeze It's important during the winter time to put them in a controlled environment where at least you know, they won't freeze That is correct. So I hope we answered the question. I think there's probably some holes in the story here where might give us a little more information, but generally speaking you should be okay with humidity You just want to make sure that you know not knowing exactly what human levels normally are this time of year and in throughout winter I don't think they'll go below 30 naturally Especially once you start putting up the the skimp code.
Yeah, okay. I've got one here Actually, this one comes all the way from down under Australia. All right Found out about a product made by a company called Zinser the product is bin and this apparently will seal out cigarette smoke and other odors from Penetrating things like chip rock we get odors entering through our ceiling from the joining property due to presumably A defective firewall. This means we get cigarette smoke and air freshener etc.
Throughout our home coming from above at the moment We're getting there wood burnish smell as a tenant is a carpenter and has been finishing a table so home boy Smoke air freshener varnish. Yeah, what going on problem with the Zinser is that is a very high-vock level and solve the base So I am not able to use it so this person's obviously sensitive wondering if there's a Product out there that might do the same thing as the Zinser but without the solvents and hopefully below VOC right I can order by mail Because I'm in Western Australia As I said off the air, I'll be happy to hand deliver it Well, you know my first go to is the transitional primer by a FM. Okay, but before we go there I want to talk about this problem which is coming up all the time and that's all these challenging odors right cigarette urine air freshener fragrances so those are very very challenging pollution problems Yes, and I and we may differ on this Andy But my opinion is that a water-based product is not going to contain the odors like it needs to Well, I don't know if we necessarily different you have a different opinion on this, but I think it comes down to the action and What I mean by that is what is the action for that? Let's just take cigarette smoke How is it get it into the space is it just permeating through the drywall and because of active smokers on the other side?
Is it cigarette smoke that is already soaked into the drywall from a previous tenant? It's just still kind of coming out or is it cigarette smoke that's coming through recessed can lights and outlets and so forth That's what to me. That's exactly what's going on here. Got it.
Okay, and so this is where it's tricky I wish I wish that somebody could invent a product that I could open it up apply to the surface and it literally solves all the problems Yes, the problem we have though is that I? don't believe That any type of coating is ever going to seal up if you had active smoke coming through a wall And it's because that's that's pressure. That's that's an air pressure pushing that through right right if you have a smoke Smell that has infused into your drywall. You are a hundred percent correct.
You cannot seal it with a water-based product Because it'll be emulsify the smoke correct correct, but I don't know and this listener probably doesn't know either How is it actually getting into the space and so once once he said I've got? air freshener right Yeah, so now this is telling me these are aromas that are actually coming through probably small Penetrations in the drywall all over this place right and no paint in the world's gonna take care of this no The only thing that takes care of this is actually plugging those holes right and you know for that we would have other recommendations Right now Let's let's address the idea that we they've moved into a house that had a smoker and so what we're dealing with the content And you said it exactly right the source of the contamination has to be removed right which means the smokers gone So there's no more smoking going on but all the smoking that went on all of that smoke went into the services and it penetrated them So here's where we have this challenge where now we may be able to do a decorative approach And I know that you and I've talked about using shellac right right as a kind of a as an intermediary because a lot of people here Shilak and they go my god is too IVOC. I don't want to use shellac Sometimes folks are as products in the conventional world that do the job really well and there's no substitute for that So what you have to understand is it's possible because there's other products now that can go over shelllax Shilax pretty pretty friendly in terms of other coatings So you can put coatings on the shellac that will actually help this if you're concerned about the shellac's off the thing that will seal the shellac So your shellac is taking care of the surface challenge which is cigarette and the routine problem and then the other coating that comes on top of The shellac can manage the shellac that's kind of how I think a bit and discuss it with clients when they're calling with a problem like this Yeah, I agree You know Jay a couple of years ago when you were in town we were making a bunch of samples up and we work with a product here It's called thermurony. It's a wonderful decking material.
It's North American ash It's heat-treated like you know the Vikings used to make their their ships. They would heat treat the wood and it gets really dark Beautiful beautiful downside is smell it has a smell like burnt with it's kind of it's got a smell It's a burnt wood is that what it smells like cooked wood cook wood. Yeah, yeah, and it's a very distinct aroma And so we did a bunch of tests and Jane I found that I think we did two coats of shellac and two coats of the AFM poly Yeah, smells gone. Yeah smell is completely gone Yeah, we did we did another test where we just did four coats of poly directly over the wood no smell still exists Yeah, and that's because the chemistry of natural aromas is so far advanced that you know that it's just physically impossible Right now to make a coating that is both water-based and can block those aromas water.
We emulsifies our odors solvents do not Right not especially these these aromas right you know, there's water soluble aromas right right right and they tend to be Water soluble and they also can tend to be acidic in some cases and the acidity and the in that creates a situation where it wants to bleed Through come through because the acidity is causing that so, you know, I think I think we did pretty good job at the letters today I thought maybe we just kind of round out the show today and folks I'm one of the one of the things Annie and I are really proud to be able to say is that we We really appreciate the opportunity to share what we know about healthy building And and everything that we want to share with you now and what we share with you in the past what we hope to share with you in the future Comes from that perspective our number one goal here is to share with you All the ideas that we've been able to to learn over the years from a variety of different clients who have helped us understand things better The physicians we work with other consultants who have been on the same pages us and that page is we want to make sure that you're living in the health Theest home you can and we don't we don't say there's anything wrong with that In fact, we think it's fairly sensible that that's what we all want to do and I know Andy and I both feel the same way and Andy Will iterate on this too is that thank you. Thank you for listening to us and thank you for giving us opportunity to give you a message We think it's really important and it's humbling It's it's amazingly humbling when customers call and they and I answer the phone or take the call And is this really Andy am I actually talking to you know, I it's yeah, this is what we do This is what we love J and I get up every morning looking forward to coming to work and he gets up two hours earlier than I do So he's really on top of it right. I don't know if I mentally wake up as early as you do, but I'm physically here I'm definitely not a morning person But you know, it's just it's so humbling when people are so excited to talk and and I wish I could speak with everybody that calls It's just impossible. And that's why we have to have a consulting service to help, you know facilitate all these appointments that we have But you know, this is what I love to do.
I've been doing this since 1992 and You know, we did we did an episode a few weeks ago. We talked about kind of a controversial topic about how the the the If you don't know what a certain chemical is it could actually cause a reaction because of adrenaline release and we got some feedback on both sides of the aisle there and But I would say a good 90% of the feedback we got were from customers saying thank you for finally talking about this most most people are sort of afraid to and It was mostly, you know, keep up the good work and and keep planting those seeds as it was put to me by one of my my dear customers So thank you all so much for allowing us to do this and for inviting us into your home into your your iPhone wherever you listen to us On a weekly basis. It means the world to both J and I and as you said J I look forward to doing this for many many years to come. Mm-hmm.
Well, I think on that note, it's time to say So long everyone I have to go out shovel the driveway. All right. I don't have to I don't have to you Shuffle the all the sun away from from the car But yeah folks again Please do not hesitate to reach out with questions and comments either via email or speak pipe And as always we invite you to leave us a review in a rating iTunes or wherever else you listen to the show We thank you so much for being loyal listeners and we look forward to coming back with you next week So long everyone happy Halloween