Welcome back to the new thinkery. I'm David Barr. How are you doing, Greg? Well, I gotta say this is our attempt attempt to get off on a good foot today.
So I'm doing good. I'm a little better now that loosen this up loosen this up. Take 10. Excellent.
How are you doing? How are you doing? Well, how are you doing Alex? I have a question for Greg.
All right. Yeah. Greg, can you guys are describe for listeners? What kinds of things do you do to loosen up?
You know, jumping jacks. I'm a big fan of winespritzers. You know, if I'm, you take those before class? No, no, no, no, usually not usually not.
Yeah. But sometimes, you know, if it's an afternoon class and a few sedatives. So we're all coming on more clearly now. Thanks to our yeti blue microphones.
Thanks to blue. Good people at Yeti for supplying these microphones. They were initially going to ship them to the people that partially examined life, but they thought better of it and ship. I thought they just made cooler turns out.
They make mics. Who know? Yeah. So thank you.
Is it the same? It's not the same company. I'm not sure. So, it wasn't an awesome.
Yeah. I'm serious in this. Thank you very much to our listeners who have donated. These are expensive microphones and we hope that our voices come in with greater clarity.
So thank you very much. Yeah. Let me just add. I just want to add that I'd like to think in particular, the former student of mine named Caleb, who's a grad student now in politics in Hillsdale.
He actually donated mine straight to me, which is why we liked it. So we went on to more for David and Alex. So thanks so much. Okay.
Moving on. Okay. So today we are talking, this is the first of two episodes on a Plutarch's parallel lives where we've pulled two lives, I think it's 52 and he has 18 comparisons. Today we are discussing Coriolanus and Alcibiades.
And why didn't we pick this anyway? Besides interesting. Well, actually, one thing we did that episode in Lake Kyrgyz and some of the feedback was that we needed to do the pairs going forward. And so we're actually going to have Wayne Ambler.
Someone I've worked with in the past and Alex is current colleague. We're going to have him on to do numerous that we have that pair there. And I just thought we thought after talking that it would make more sense to do these in Paris. So we're going to record a couple episodes.
We're releasing separately. We're going to Alcibiades and Coriolanus. Why are we doing Alcibiades and Coriolanus? I guess because we already did Shakespeare's Coriolanus with Jan Blitz, who's by the way going to come back and do another play.
And we're all sort of familiar with Alcibiades, the character from the actual real life person, but from the works of Zenith and Thucydides and Plato. So it just seemed like a natural place for us to make a foray into into Plutarch. That's at least more than I'm taking. Anything to add to that else?
It seems unnatural. There's some freaks in these two. Yeah, yeah. That's right.
I'm excited because we've read the play. We've obviously thought about Alcibiades with a figure in Plato and Thucydides. It's kind of interesting to have one brilliant mind bring them into proximity and see where they overlap and where they don't. The other thing we've talked about this in the like Kyrgyz episode on the question of why Plutarch, we went into his bio there.
So you can tune into that episode. I mean, it's to remind people he lived 46 AD to 119. But he was such a touchstone for many of our favorite philosophers that it's a I think like bad form to continue on. And here studies in political philosophy, if you're a student or even a full blown professor, without having spent time with Plutarch, either his Moralia, which is one of his philosophic works or his parallel lives.
You know, like we're so called him his constant companion for decades. And we could just add other names of philosophers who greatly admired Plutarch. David Barr. Yeah.
So what transverse? And one more thing. I think we could hear also have Greg discuss you have all these interesting comments about philosophers acting differently. I think it's just a good reminder.
I find it such a useful way to think about how you can explore. Yeah, you go into it. No, it's a small point. I mean, it's I've made it on a few of our episodes, but I wonder I've wondered aloud.
And it seems likely with Plutarch that some of these Roman writers, especially pursued philosophy under various names. So I mean, I, you know, this account of how Sibites is riddled with references to Plato and Zenith and Thucydides. And it seems to me clear that whatever you want to call this larger inquiry into human affairs, Plutarch is engaged in some serious level thinking. And I think very, very careful attention is paid to terms.
It seems to me, although the translation is at least the one that I'm using doesn't seem super sensitive to that. But even just very beginning, like the alsibites begins talking about the the Guinness or the family or the race of alsibites. Coriolanes, which we'll turn to next talks about the house of Coriolanes. So there's this contrast between the oikos or the house of Coriolanes, the race or the family of alsibites.
And then I think the next one's Lysander and it begins with Lysander. So it doesn't mention his family line or his house. It begins with talking about him. And so even just that that's the nuance already tells me that Plutarch is being very careful in these distinctions.
Yeah. I think this is what a safe way. You know, I don't I confess I don't know Plutarch well, but I wonder if what's going on is writing under the Romans, talking, talking about a contrasting Roman leaders with Greeks allows you to point out perhaps some ways in which Romans failed to live up in some regards to the Greeks, but in some ways in which maybe they're superior, but having that comparison allows you to make comparisons where the Romans might not always look the best in man. Yeah.
Excellent. So let's launch. So we're doing alsibites. Yeah.
I can give a little bit of a background who else was, which I'll draw from Plutarch. I'll also draw from before before we go. I always wondered why Shakespeare never wrote a play on alsibites. Alsibites is a character in Teemun of Athens, which is completely devoted right now.
That's a very good question. Why does he do it with Coriolanes in not alsibites? They have their similar their lives are in certain aspects, similarly structured. Yeah.
I think that's a great question. It's a broader question of why does Shakespeare focus on the Romans over the Greeks in general, right? But I do wonder if it's he thinks of the Romans have something better to teach the English about rule, or if he sees the English playing a role analogous to what the Romans played. That's just a guess.
Do you have anything to add to it? I mean, you're much more a bunch of people. I have nothing to add. But does he have a similar number of Greek plays?
No. No, no, there's, gosh, there's Teemun of Athens. Isn't there? Oh gosh, I don't even know.
Is there a paraclysian? Yeah. And then there's one more. There's one more.
I don't know. It's not the easiest. No, no. The easiest is in it.
That's right. Anyway, so but there are a lot more. There are a lot of Roman plays though, right? And they're on scene to figure there's a.
Oh, she would be a royalist, and Cressida? Yeah, that's it. Yeah. And also, Midsummer Night's Dream, aren't there?
That's right. It's being outside of Athens. Sorry, we're being this on the fly. I'm prepared.
Yeah. So Greek, I'm going to be able to actually examine life would never mess this up. I'm just putting it out there. No, no, no.
But they're always high off. Scag. That's right. They're being filtered here.
Anyway, OK, so also Heidi sees the most captivating of all the Greeks, probably. I think that's unquestionable. Besides Socrates, of course. No, I think even more than Socrates.
I have a painting. I'm actually looking at it right now in my office. Socrates finds Alcibiades at the House of Spasia. It's a beautiful painting.
You can Google it. Listeners at home. And it's of a middle aged Socrates trying to pull Alcibi's away from the arms of pleasure into a life of speculative flossing. Alcibiades was a Greek.
He was Athenian. He was alive during the Peloponnesian War. He was the first cousin once moved or nephew of Pericles, the Athenian George Washington or the Athenian maybe ever had Lincoln makes more sense. He was a man who had an amazing political career.
He also was the most notorious and probably most brilliant in the sense of shining out. Student of Socrates, perhaps even more so. And he was just this amazing figure. He was extraordinarily handsome.
He was a fairly talented. He was a public speaker. Men wanted to be him. Women wanted to be with him.
Men wanted to be with him. You know, which calls him the most eloquent of all the Greek public speakers. Yeah, that's right. And it was most powerful.
Yeah. And it also says that Socrates would pursue Alcibiades as if he had been a fugitive slave. That's pretty, that's pretty, that's pretty serious. Some higher.
No, I just need to add that to describe his magnetism. Because he attracts all types. That's rare. Usually you see people, you can understand the appeal of an aristocrat to an aristocrat.
But but somebody that appeals to the high and the low at once is. No, that's right. I mean, I was captivated by Alcibiades while I was still an undergraduate, right? And he's this enormously large figure in the platonic dialogues.
We'll talk about this later in the Russia too. But I mean, he's in the House of Bites one and two. He's in Protagoras. And he's in, oh, guess what?
We're going to do an episode on this soon. We're going to do Alcibiades is speech and supposing David. I know you're thrilled about that. So he's in four of the platonic dialogues.
He features an Zenefins memorabilia. Really? But then he's sort of the hero of the early books of Zenefins Hellenica, which is a story about the Pelopon's war. And he's a big figure in Thucydides as Pelopon's war.
I guess I should also add also a little more there. So that was exactly what I was going to say. He was in several various stuff in his place. Yeah.
So we know about all that. I mean, he's beautifully handsome, rich. He's rich. He's comes from the right family.
Then one of the Olympic Games, actually, Kootrack mentions this. He finishes first, second and fourth, maybe third, some other say in one event. Right. So he entered the horses in this cherry race and they took first, second and fourth.
He's a dare in general. He's more or less successful in everything that he does, it seems. And so it's this combination of political excellence, beauty, attraction. He's also, I would say, if I had to say, he's like one of the members of the new thinker, he's least like me and more like a David Barr or an Alps pre, right?
He lived a life of daring. He probably smoked unfiltered cigarettes. He drank profusely, right? Not like me, like little wines percucet.
He drank for real. He went out partying. He was sort of sacrilegious or at least a little ambition, his ways. But also in your youth used to bed with older Greek men.
So it's kind of six and one half dozen of the other. Yeah. And instead of kicking off the penai of the hermai, you would just tip over cows. They got on the ground.
Lauren knows what was coming to him. Right. The point you might just bring up Greg, just all the point or the point about the, yeah, go ahead. No, the serious point.
I think I think we can leave it to the listeners imaginations about your race and the pizzeria. But I've performed in my ways. I saw the light. But what makes him so interesting, at least to Socrates and the alsibis, Plato's alsibis, is that he does have everything going for him.
And yet he's pretty smart, right? And perceptive. And so the question is, how can you get, how can you combine someone who seems so full of themselves yet so perceptive of his own defects at times? It is quite remarkable as a sort of psychological study.
And then of course, this manifests itself in interesting ways politically. So in your sort of steering this direction, and I'll probably pull this back later, but at least for a little bit, I would say another fascinating thing about also about his style, which is kind of alluded to is this apparent openness to philosophy. So he's, he's a parent, like on the one hand, he seems to be the guy who's most capable of politics. And on the other hand, at least initially, he seems like a guy who might be capable of doing philosophy.
And so I mean, the prospects of a human being who could do both of these at the same time is just very, very attractive, even if ultimately he seems to have failed initially both. And he shows what's interesting about Plutarch's life of alsibites is we don't learn a lot of, unless I'm mistaken, we don't get a lot of his early education. Do we, Greg? No, unlike the education of Cyrus, it's contrast where there's so much devotion is paid by the part of Xenophon.
No, that's right. To helping us understand that Cyrus in Xenophon's education of Cyrus is a little bit like an alsibites figure. I loved by his classmates, just naturally charming. He talks back the same way that alsibites does to authorities, even as a young man.
Right. I do think that they're very similar types, although I think they're ultimately different. But yeah, when I teach the education of Cyrus, I will regularly pair it with Plato's alsibites to sort of show what it might look like for a Cyrus type to encounter a Socrates type. Yeah, for sure.
But you're right. We don't get a lot about his education. I mentioned before that the book opens by talking about his family line and it traces, it shows basically how he's connected familiarly to the biggest family in Athens, right? And Ajax and Ajax, of course.
But we don't get a month instead of his education. I actually was greatly amused by is it chapter two where Plutarck says, we'll tell you about his character, his ethos. And instead of an educational, we get three examples of alsibites at play, it seems actually. And this is apparently, but this is listeners, you know, if you're not steeped and flossy, like we are, like, I think we all know that you can see a lot about someone's character by how they, how their sportsmanship, how they engage in games and stuff like this, right?
And you see, we all know this world, Brad, or the wind or stuff like this. And at least initially Plutarck says of alsibites that he loved, Strife, or that he was Coralsome. There's a Greek word love in there though. So he loved Corals.
And he also loved being first. And then he gives us these three stories about him as a young man. One is that he, by the way, I can't help but laugh at these. One is he was an wrestling match for somebody and the guy was meeting him.
And so he bit the guy and the guy says, you buy like a woman and alsibite says, no, I buy it like a lion. So there's at least one, right? And then the second one is he's playing a game called Knuckles and really know that is some kind of a dice game, I think. And again, he cheats at the game.
And basically he throws himself in front of the car because he got a good throw, so he won't keep it going. The third in car, a car, but not a car, obviously right now, whatever they call a car in the ancient world, the wagon. The third example is how alsibites refused to play the flute as a young boy because he had to distort his face, which made him feel illiberal. But I can't help but think that we also learned that he had a list, by the way, in this chapter.
And it was cute. And I was very anterior and I loved his little list. But given the fact that we know that he lies and sort of cheats and these kinds of things, I couldn't help but wonder if the reason he didn't want to play the flute had nothing to do with it. Distorting his face in any way, but that his because of this list or whatever that he actually couldn't do it.
And so instead of just confessing that he wasn't capable of playing the flute, he concocted this. No, no, it's not manly. And so I'm going to play the guitar because that's what all the cool rock kids do. And so then all the other boys by the way, stop playing the flute points were.
So yeah, we don't get a lot about his education, although Plutarch does relate a lot about his relationship with Socrates, which is, I think, what we'll turn to next. Unless you guys have anything you want to jump in about? Well, I think what's the thing about those three examples you gave is that in all three, the game is a vehicle for his own sort of victory. And he's willing to secure a victory at the expense of the ordinary rules of the game.
Right. And win at all costs. Yeah. And so which I think plays out later where he's willing to completely forgo with ordinary rules of allegiance to your home city or, you know, how he thinks, basically, he's able to see above and beyond ordinary political machinations to a sort of larger sort of framework in which he can operate and secure victory for himself.
Yeah. That's right. Yeah. That's right.
The biggest, the my most favorite description of Alcibiades at the start of Plutarch's life here is he says that he had the highest capacity for inventing for discerning what was the right thing to be said for any purpose. That to me constituted one was. What translation are you using? The Dryden.
Dryden was a famous poet. This is an old translation. I actually look for that in the library and it's difficult, actually. I'm using the lobe.
Is that what you're using to else? Yeah. The same one. That's the virtue of having the Greek on the opposite page.
You have to have the virtue of looking at it. I just read it English. Yeah. I can't.
Yeah. I was trying to read quickly, but every time I saw something I thought was weird. I had to go once it's Greek like, by the way, I was really just kind of checking words. It's pretty easy.
It's quite easy. It's quite easy. So it's a difficult. Yeah.
Yeah. So if there's any talented linguists who can burn through a massive amount of text, literally, we could use a new translation out there. For sure. Half of me.
Yeah. Give it on. Dr. Toph.
There's a bunch of other silly stuff I'll mention before we turn into maybe asking about House of Bodies, his relationship with Socrates, at least as it's described here. But just a few other things like House of Bodies had a really beautiful dog with a really long, beautiful tail and cut it off just so people would talk about it. Right. So I was like, why'd you do that?
Everyone's talking about his mission accomplished. Right. Like, that's just weird. He married.
Plutar relates to accounts of how he married. One account is that he beats some guy up and the guy gave his daughter. And there's an alternative account, right? But both cases are kind of bad.
But in one of the cases, he's not married for love because he's an office person all the time and he's always having a different lover. But apparently his wife tried to divorce him. So she went to court and he like just walked into the courtroom and grabbed her by the hair and dragged her home. And like nobody tried to stop him.
Like this is just a Who talks to explanation? Yeah. Clutar's explanation is hilarious. It's like, well, that's why they have those hearings anyway.
So so that you can go and talk it over with your wife. I actually actually took that to be. I know it's there since I took that to be Clutar commenting on the cruel character of the law rather than rather than simply saying it's also bodies like that law allows you to do this. Yeah.
You know, it's interesting. We could talk about this again a little bit later, but throughout also by these life, I was struck by every time I wanted to criticize also by these first character flaws, I reflected that it was also the Greece of this period enabled those flaws. So they allowed him to exist in this manner. This is a lot of the people in there because they were, but he's always being contrasted.
Clutar always adds how there was a subset of the rulership and even the lower orders were critical of his outlandish ways, his ostentation in his flaunting of tradition. So there was some pushback, but all this was allowed. He was allowed as a kind of like a flower to bloom. And people were hospitable to it.
So so Greece is as much to to share in his triumph, but also blame, I think, for his accesses as also bodies and then. Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, that's not really incisive point because I guess I think it's really important that but for the empire that also by and it's in a way, like he couldn't exist in Sparta. Well, he did wait since that's part.
Well, yeah, but they were always trying to generate and sparkle. Well, I don't know. I mean, there are, oh, shoot, Lysander and brassidis. There are these weird occasional exceptions, even in Sparta, types that spring up contrary to the spirit of the regime.
It seems like that happens, especially when Sparta is desperate, especially with the Garden of Foreign Affairs. Like, oh, God, we're worried we're going to lose this war. So fine. We'll turn over the reins to this weirdo, who's completely not like everyone else.
But you know, no, no, you're right. I mean, he's very much a product of imperial Athens. I think that's right. I mean, in a way, look, in a way for me, I think this city presents also by it is as Athens and microcosm.
I mean, he's he's Athens, like he's brilliant. He's offensive. He's daring. He's he's he's not following any of the constraints of the law.
Neither of Athens, right? I mean, they had this empire contrary to the law. So no, I think that's really good. I like that.
Yeah. Yeah. So also by this is a kind of creature of Athens. Maybe this is a good place to pivot to talking about his relationship to Socrates.
Yeah, please do. Now, one thing I like about the way that Plutarch casted is as much as he gives also by his extraordinary credit for all his abilities and all the things we said, he ultimately sees his core as a deep defect. So this is just if you have the one with the chapters and chapter four of the Alspides, Plutarch says the following. These Socrates saw a radiantly manifest in his outward person talking about his looks and everything and fearful of the influence upon him of wealth and rank in the throng of citizens, foreigners and allies who sought to preempt his affections by flattery and favor, he was feigned to protect him and not suffer such a fair flowering plant to cast its native fruit to predition.
For there is no man whom fortune so envelops and compasses about with the so-called good things of life that he cannot be reached by the bold and caustic reasonings of philosophy and peers to the heart. And so it was that also by this, although he was pampered from the very first and was prevented by the companions who sought only to please him and giving ear to one who would instruct and train him nevertheless to the goodness of his parts. And last saw all that was in Socrates and cleaved him, putting away as rich and famous lovers. So I find this interesting because he's finally, he gives credit to philosophy here saying philosophy and its reasonings are what can pierce through everything.
And in a way, what's remarkable about al-Savites is that despite it all, he was receptive to this, but again, credit goes to Socrates. Ultimately, though, I think it's important to note that as successful as Socrates may have been for a moment, the ultimate result is that al-Savites gives it into the flattery of the people. So how old was Socrates and al-Savites have been when this, what do we want to call this relationship again? I mean, for Plato's account, we don't get dates in which Plutarch backs up by the way.
Sakhrit's been in his early 30s. And then within, I think, four years or something like that, they're in war, right, fighting alongside. Yeah, Plutarch mentions a couple of battles right now. Yeah.
And what's without having to go into all the details, I'll just say one of the most salient things is that Socrates shows himself to be great in battle and the generals decide to reward al-Savites instead since he's got higher rank. And then again, later, they're prepared to give Socrates for more valence in another battle. They're prepared to give him an award and he insists on giving al-s to al-Savites. And what we, I think is subtly related here, and I think Plutarch is ultimately getting this from Plato, because I think Plato confirms this, is that what Socrates is trying to avoid recognizing from others is this sort of praise from the city.
He doesn't want this to be the currency in which he trades, yet al-Savites is very susceptible to it, and he wants Socrates to be praised in this way. And ultimately, I think that ends up being the sticking point, is that al-Savites is too addicted to the praise of the people. So what do you think, Alex? I mean, Socrates, I think Plutarch just confirmed this.
You said that Socrates was deeply worried about al-Savites being corrupted by the many and these kinds of things and love. But when he insists that al-Savites get this award, doesn't that really feed that, fan that flame and also about his soul? I mean, maybe Socrates put a greater, Cretan son of waiting for himself than keeping it from al-Savites. So he did there about al-Savites, but not enough to, yeah, but with their relationship, but just pure speculation, with their relationship have occurred before Socrates turned to the political things.
No, I think it's after. Yeah, I think it's after. At least in Plato and Xenophonia. So you mentioned, by the way, David also about al-Savites's rhetorical skills.
This question actually rises where we've learned to speak well. Now it's possible that he was just sort of by nature a good speaker, but it's also possible that he picked up how to speak well from Socrates. That seems to be an implication in Xenophonia and Xenophonia for its worth. Were they lovers physically, knowing one another's meaning?
No, somebody decent Socrates. You probably, hey, pal, I'm not the one with the two of them without shirts on my wall. No, he didn't tell you, Greg, it's not a spasia. Well, I mean, that's an interesting question.
In Plato, the answer is no, because al-Savites get to look at us as in reality. Who knows? Yeah. In Plato, it's not on the train.
Yeah. So one interesting episode that seems to be a turning point, this is in chapter 10. Plutarch describes an episode where al-Savites is going to make a contribution of money to the state. And it says this was not intentional on his part.
He's just been haunting or something. And he has a bird in his shirt. And I think it was a rooster, right? And they start laughing when he makes the contribution.
He drops his cock. And then everybody, because they're so happy at what al-Savites has contributed that they start chasing this bird. And I think al-Savites have been- So he drops his cock and they just erupt with- They go to chase it for him because he's made a big contribution, a big deposit. And I think what he sees there is that you can get the money to do anything, even shameful things, right?
So long as you've sort of satisfied them. And I think that becomes his ambition, going forward, is trying to get the money. And he's quite effective in this, trying to get the money to fulfill his designs or his plans for Athens, right? It's great.
I mean, it's interesting. It is good to just that you prepare this with the education of Cyrus. It just reminds me so much to be young Cyrus. Oh, yeah.
Prater naturally disposed towards gratifying people, but just understanding human nature. Grasping somehow. His father and grandfather, they'll teach him little tricks, but the molding is there. Alex and I were talking about this as we were just kind of chatting before the show started.
This al-Savites paired with Coriolanus as we were talking about earlier. But I can't help it in my head when I'm imagining al-Savites or just thinking about them. He just seems perpetually young. He seems like, I don't know, late 20s.
Hasn't quite matured yet. Hasn't grown up. Goes out drinking too much. Hasn't parties.
Coriolanus, my kind of stress strikes me, is like mid 40s or 50. He seems perpetually old. And so there's this nice contrast. I mean, he just seems like a ball and vivant.
Like he just loves life. Yeah. Was there any copy of your cock in the marketplace? I don't know why you guys see that.
I'll see why you guys got it. It's in the text. You say it's so many titles. It's a couple of titles.
It's a couple of titles. Geez. We shouldn't pass over before moving off from Socrates. It's over this moment where he slides Anatus, one of Socrates.
Oh, yeah. It's you. That was funny. We didn't even go into details, but basically...
It's like Anatus is the partially examined life. Sorry, go on, Alex. Well, this is why I don't remember in that. This is why I think the symposium, why the anatus is the unnamed comrade.
Yeah. I mean, he certainly has some sort of... At least here, that's at least a plute dark spin. Who knows?
But it's very, very tempting. But even though it's plute dark spin, it's an emissary on basis for him to sort of bring this up or something. Anyway, go on. Yeah.
He's willing to endure all sorts of humiliation from Alsibites, though, as everybody seems to react in Athens. Not... I won't be so humiliated that you choose Socrates over me. Right?
That might be a vindictimist. But we can move on from that. So just the point I was saying is Alsibites, that plute dark is contrasting Alsibites' behavior towards Socrates with his behavior towards Anatus and in the same chapter. Even in Anatus was, of course, one of the three famous accusers of Socrates responsible for Socrates' execution in a manner of speaking.
So yeah, it was Alsibites during the trial. Dead. Is that... Is he dead?
At that point, okay. He died in 404, I think. That sounds right. Yeah, that sounds right.
That's five years before. Oh, it's five years before. Okay. And in fact, I think some of the heat around Socrates might have been connected to Alsibites in that way.
And his death even. And his final part of his career, which we'll talk about in just a moment. You're wondering why he didn't come to his aid? Yeah, but I'm clearly, you know.
No, I just think he was dead. That's all. Yeah. So one of the things...
Did you jump into his career? I was going to say, yeah, I was one of the things as we talk about his career, one of the things that... So I teach, I've always tried to express the students my strong love for Alsibites. And I've taught Thucydides for years and years and years Thucydides' account of the Peloponnesian War, the War Between Athens and Sparta.
And in that book, you really do get an account of his rise to fame as a general. But one of the things I think you really don't see, I mean, you see his amazing rhetorical ability in Thucydides, but you don't see his tactical genius in Thucydides. And so my students, it wasn't until I taught the Hellenica a couple of times by Xenophon, where you see Alsibites undertaking a lot of successful military tactics, which Plutarch, by the way, recounts. That's the book you're translating for Cornell University Press.
That's right. That's right. Yeah, maybe a crack. The Thomas Mangle has endorsed.
That's true-ish. And so you don't really see in Thucydides how impressive he is militarily. But you do get a small sense of it because he's elected general in Thucydides. The biggest thing that he becomes a part of is, while he's still a very young man, he gets elected as a general to go as part of a military expedition to try and conquer the island of Sicily.
Now, if you go and look on a map, you probably, most of our listeners are here in the United States of America. Sicily sounds kind of small, but if you go and look at a map and look at Athens and look at Sicily, you can get an idea for the scope of this undertaking. So alongside a couple of other generals, the most prominent of whom is a guy named Nysius, whom I'm sure we'll talk about here in just a moment. Alsibites and Nysius get elected general to go on a conference.
This is during the Pelpenisian War. Athens is already and has been and still is and continues to be at war with Sparta. During this war, they decide they're going to undertake this huge expedition against Sicily. Contrary to the advice, by the way, of Alsibites is guardian to now deceased paracles.
And so this is probably the turning point of Pelpenisian War. This enormous undertaking to conquer a large, foreign island that seems to have very little to do tactically with, or strategically with winning the Pelpenisian War. I can run through this kind of quickly, I suppose. So I don't know how to mix these stories in it as I go, but maybe this is just the best way.
So Nysius, Alsibites and Nysiusius with two main generals, Nysius is quite old. At this point in the war, he's cautious. And so he's trying to discourage Athens from going to war against Sicily. Alsibites, according to Plutarch, is responsible for fanning the flames of love among the Athenians for conquering this place.
So Alsibites is sort of riling the folks up. And he manages to talk Athens into making the exhibition enormous. He tricks Nysius into doing this for us. And so as he's about to go and undertake this military expedition, sort of on the evening of it, so to speak, there's this domestic incident, let's say, you've already alluded to it, David, but where some party of drunken revelers goes around and cuts off the falluses of the statues of the god Hermes.
I'm not going to ask them to tell me what I heard. Alsibites got Als' attention. When you talk about this with students, I'm going to try to imagine like McChrystal or Shortskoff, or who's a betrayess, right? Defining a betrayess is not a good example of whoever you want to.
You know, Eisenhower or something like this. One general is going to break off a piece of anything. It's betrayess. Can I interrupt this story really quick before you go on?
This reminds me of a nice word with Alex pre-U in Annapolis. The two of them. We were parting ways. He had just gotten into Tulane and he was leaving town the next day or the next few days.
We were saying goodbye. We had had too much to drink. If anybody's ever been to Annapolis, down to any of these small narrow winding streets, and these wonderful little homes, they're right up on the street. There was a street replete with these like gargoyles and plant pots.
Anyway, we had had too much to drink, and Alex just kicks over this gargoy. He smashes and we run down the street and we smash everything. Wait, wait, hold on. Wait, hold on.
You get that? With me. Forget it. Let's pick them all.
We just got really excited. Okay. Much like I was on the victim of spurious lies by my enemies, my political enemies. I believe this firmly just was worth.
I think Alex has just worried about statutes and limitations. Just to try to reel his back to the alzabaiadi. So alzabaiadi is accused of being a part of this drunken party that goes around and knocks off the fallacies of the gods, for me, is around town. Now, alzabai agrees to stand trial, but the assembly says, no, no, no.
You go ahead and go to Sicily, do your little war thing. We'll think about it. So alzabai leaves while he's leaving, some of his enemies decide that they'll try to bring up charges against him and try him in absentia. Can't speak.
That's the important thing. Yeah, right. Yeah. They do it in purpose so that he can't speak because they're, yeah, that's right.
Because they know he'll be able to sway the assembly, not to convict him. That's right. So alzabaiadi is sailing away to Sicily. He catches wind of this and decides, you know what, forget this.
I'm out of here. And then he's going through his rolodex at places to go. You know, where does he go? He goes to Athens chief enemy, Sparta.
Not only does he go to Sparta. He says, hey, guys, here are there military plans? How do I know I know I'm going to run them up? Here's where they're going to attack.
And this is where it all breaks down for me, Greg. Yeah. We'll talk about you. I just don't know how we can praise, especially how you can praise them, Greg.
You're an honorable, you're the most honorable, self-styled, most honorable, co-hosts of the new thing. Right. That's what you like to project forward. And here you are with alzabaiadi on your wall naked, whatever.
He's been a robot. And you're praising him. Yeah. And I just don't get it, but we'll talk about that.
We'll talk about that. That's the last major topic for tonight. So he defects to Athens chief enemy. This would be like defecting to the Soviet Union during the Cold War or something like this, right?
And he also gives him the plans about, here's what Athens is going to do. And here's how you stop it. And he successfully basically guides the Spartan military into a defeat of the Athenian attempts to conquer Sicily. But while he's in Sparta, being the kind of guy, people are sort of impressed with how he quickly adopts Spartan modes.
I guess we glossed it this quickly, but he's extremely extravagant. He wears foppish clothes. He spends money like it's going on a style. He's got the nicest food, the nicest drink.
He's in Athens. In Athens. And so when he goes to Sparta, people are impressed. First, I think there's no way to scilog or survive.
And they're impressed by how immediately he's able to change his ways and in Spartan ways. With one notable exception, he does bed the Queen of Sparta while he's there, ages his wife, which is a pretty big indiscretion, but not as big as then. Spartan is talking about it. When we lose.
Yeah, we know that's true. But then he also talks about it. He doesn't, what's remarkable about that story, Greg, is he doesn't care. He knows he's going to get caught because her husband wants to get caught.
Yeah. Yeah. He wants to get caught because he wants to be known that his sons are the kings of Sparta now. Yeah.
So to speak. Yeah. But now it won't happen. He's caught because the king's wife, he's just his wife.
Little ass about his. Is bragging. Yeah. She's like telling people, I was just like, yo, my kid, my kids.
Isn't so. He doesn't so he doesn't conform to Sparta's form of aggressive homosexuality, but he does sleep with the queen. Apparently. I don't know why it's got to be aggressive, but this point seems and then the same thing happens when he goes to Persia, right?
He adopts there as well. Yeah. Which yeah. So now because of this incident, he now has to flee and he goes to Persia, which is.
Alex is the only one. Yeah. He's probably related to us. Ooh.
Ooh. Well, are you brewing all the Persia? He's going to ruin some of our. It's not the people.
The people are lovely. Yeah. We like the people. It's the regime.
And not the regime. The ruling class. It was we're talking about a long, long time ago. Yeah.
The monarchy. Ooh. Ooh. Anyway, you had something to say about that.
So he defecs to Persia, by the way. So I don't even know how to say this. Like they're in the Cold War. Like Persia is even more of a geopolitical enemy than Sparta.
I mean, they're much more powerful in this way. My example is. So imagine. So imagine President Johnson, but not like ugly.
Like really handsome. Like JFK, but JFK defecs to Vietnam, sleeps with the head of the Vietcong. Wife. That's a joke.
Then he goes to the Soviet Union. Then yeah. Then he gets booted out of the Soviet Union. Oh, this is after he's kicked down the phallic Washington monument.
Right. And it finally was just like, no, come on back, JFK. You're handsome. No, that's the part.
Yeah. And so that's, but he doesn't just come on back. Right. Like he.
So we'll talk about this. I guess a little later. But one of the things that House of Idies is all along, he seems to be trying to make his way back Athens. But when his friends in Athens say, please come back, he says, OK, fine.
I'll take you back my jilted lover. Put on one condition, one little tiny little condition. I need you to have a political revolution and install a different form of government for me. And they do.
They put an oligarchy in charge and they bring him back. Just still recounting his career. This is in Plutarch. But here Plutarch is lifting pretty heavily just straight out of Zenefins, Hellenica.
And what happens is Zenefin recounts and Plutarch recounts as well. That also bodies just has a string of military successes. If you read the Hellenica, it's quite amazing. Zenefin lays it out like Athens is going to defeat.
Oh, yeah, he's the hero. I mean, my interpretation is that he's more or less the hero books wanted to. So what the very. We'll never find out because he won't finish this translate.
I was going to say how will I access it? There's a point I wanted to tell you guys are mocking my heritage. Yeah. You know, me a person of color victim of such white aggression.
Oh, God, that's not right. That's just because you're a fragile Greg. I can see your fragility. But this quality that Alsomodys has that he can adapt so well wherever he is reminds me a little bit of Socrates, right?
Who is somehow able to find his way inside the psychology of whoever it is he's talking to and adopt a motive proceeding that somehow gets to them with a positive layer negatively. Seems like Alsomodys has a kind of political version of that where wherever he is, he has the ability to adapt, be appealing and talented. And from there to won't be successful, right? Yet there's always this other side of him, right?
That's operative. I guess that's what brings him back to Athens ultimately. So what I was saying was at the beginning of the Hellenica, which is a, so through Cindy's wrote a book called The History of the Palpenish War, loosely, but that book ends before the war ends. It breaks off for reasons that we don't quite know.
Zenefan continues more or less where through cities left off in the history of the war. And when Zenefan picks up, it's Athens is on the ropes. Bad things are happening, bad things are happening, bad things are happening. They recall Alsomodys and all of a sudden it's victory after victory after victory.
They're winning, they're winning, they're winning, they're winning. It seems clear to me that one of the lessons there is that when Alsomodys is in charge of the military, you win because he knows what he's doing. He gets elected to a new role like Supreme Allied Commander. The Greek is like, gosh, what is it?
Autocross Stradigo or something like this? Like the single powerful general or something like this, allied commander, if you want. And they just start winning. And they just start blowing through the Spartans, right?
And just a victory after victory, he manages to get the oligarchy put in place, and he can actually eventually set back in Athens momentarily, briefly. But then it all falls apart and it all falls apart because there's one particular battle where Alsomodys was in charge and he had to go look after some other affairs. And so he instructs the support and he's like, listen to me, do not attack the enemy. The support and it attacks the enemy completely against Alsomodys by his supporters.
And one of Alsomodys by his enemies back in Athens brings charges against Alsomodys for that. So Alsomodys gets exiled yet again from Athens. Then he goes and he lives in his castle naturally as one does, near Aegis Potomoy, which is where the last decisive battle of the Peloponnesian War takes place. And here's where his political career ends.
So he's done, just to be clear, just recount. He fights for Athens, he defects to Sparta, he defects from Sparta to the enemy Persia, he gets brought back into Athens, he gets kicked back out of Athens. And when he's kicked back out of Athens, he's still sort of on the sidelines watching this last momentous battle. And he's noticed that Athens is strategically badly placed on the battle.
So he goes down to the shore and tells the Athenian generals, you have to move, you're going to get slaughtered. They don't follow his advice because they don't like Alsomodys. They lose the battle in the war. At that point Alsomodys goes to Persia, Frigia, and there are two accounts according to the Plutarch of Howie died.
One is that the Persian minor ruler for Nabosus has him killed, and he's provoked by the Spartan named Lysander. So there's this party commissioned by Franabosus. That's one version of his death. The other version of his death is that Alsomodys seduce some young girl and her brothers kill him.
So one or the other, the end. Oh, sorry. You want to talk about that? I'm sorry, Alex.