"Pretend to be more optimistic"

“Every single objection to the experimental use of animals ... has been ignored and overridden by the scientific industry, and this is not going to change no matter how morally obnoxious, heartless and cruel to the members of other species," Karen Davis wrote after the transplant of a pig heart into a human. In response, Professor Stevan Harnad penned a response urging her to "pretend to be more optimistic." In this episode, we bring them both together for a compelling look at the role attitude and reality play in the Animal Rights movement.