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Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at TheWigger.com and joining me in the studio wearing a parka because winter is finally here. It's Andy Cruell.
Guys, I wish that our podcast was filmed because I watched Chris's face as he realized he had already done the top of the register and then he kicked it up. I was like, I was trying to hit my John Lennon twist and shout. It's good. But I couldn't get it.
You're excited. I am. We've been talking a lot. We have been.
That's kind of what we do. Guys, Game of Thrones is almost here. Andy and I are so excited. We did a show at Largo this week and we want to say thank you to Jason Mancukis and Andria Savage and everybody at Largo and Rebecca Fefferman and Colin Workett and everybody who put together the show.
In the audience. That was awesome. Thank you to everybody who came. Also, side shouts to Andrea Savage for coming in the midst of her promo blitz for her very funny show.
I'm sorry, on True TV. You guys, check that out. It's really, really funny. We will be doing another live show at Largo on August 23rd.
To get through on sale now. Yeah, it's in between the Penultimate episode. Penultimate episode. That was awesome.
And the finale. Today on The Watch, we will be joined by Binge Mode, Game of Thrones podcast hosts and our friends and talk to the Thrones co-hosts, Mallory Rubin and Jason, except Sam. They're going to be walking in here like the Army of the Dead. Yeah, they are.
They are. They are. They actually, you know, it goes to show you how hard they were working in that. Just getting more than two hours of sleep.
They both seem like different people. I got to say, on Tuesday night, when I went up to them, I was like, would you guys like to come on The Watch on Thursday because I feel like you might want an opportunity to podcast about Game of Thrones to their credit? They smiled and accepted. They did not even, uh, should mean the sun.
They're professionals, man. They're good. They're, uh, throwing stuff. Let's just do a quick Emmys nomination.
There's a lot to talk about this is a big morning here in, here in Tinseltown. Yeah, we wanted to talk about the Emmys. They came out, they were not actually on the, they were not actually on the West Coast friendly schedule of 830 PST. I noticed that.
Um, and, you know, Allison has a great piece up on the radar kind of looking at the winners and losers from the nominations today. Uh, a couple of Andy and Chris faves in the mix here. You're going positive first. Okay.
So I wanted, let's do positives first. Very, very, very happy to see so many night of nominations. Yeah, I was not prepared to be positive first. Which is right.
Steve Zalyan, Josh Turo, and his Ahmed. Bill Camp. So very excited by that Fred Elms for his direction, first direction of photography, sorry, the cinematography, which was, I thought, gorgeous throughout, and Robert Elms for the first two episodes, I think. So, some great cinematography in the night of, excited for the two writing nominations for Atlanta, as well as Donald Glover's nomination.
For directing, and acting. And acting. And acting. And Atlanta, for the best comedy, wonderful to see that.
And I know that it goes up and down in people's estimation, but I thought the Stranger Things was just absolutely awesome show, and I was happy to see it nominated as well. It is worth noting that, because the show came on so long ago, and we're already being set up for the second season, that it's hard to remember what an unlikely underdog the show is. If people are rolling their eyes, like, of course, it flooded the Emmys with nominations, but that's pretty nuts. Did you have any other things that you were pleasantly surprised about?
Because nobody wants to do it any nominations bit about what they. All the members of the Jeffrey Rush hive, the Rushettes, are so hype on genius getting it to do. History channel, what's up? But it wasn't even sexy Einstein, that's the thing.
No, that was sexy Einstein. That was the one where it's Einstein, but he fucks. Jeffrey Rush has sex in that show? Yeah, but he plays older Einstein.
Oh, OK, so he has flashbacks of his own virial self. How dare you? Older men can perform. That's true.
I have read the novels of Philip Roth. I don't better find out. I'm surprised that you did not mention the nomination for the best episode of Black Mirror season three, San Junipero, which, by the way, is terrific at a comedy. But also, incredible shout to Netflix and their marketing arm for realizing that they needed to promote that single episode as a made-for-television movie just to get a nomination.
That's smart. That's how the game is played. So bravo, Jeffrey Wright got a nomination for Westworld to show otherwise detest. But I'm always happy to see Jeffrey Wright get some.
Look, honestly, this is a transition from positive to less than positive. When I say that the real winners here are the marketing departments of the heavyweights. So is it the heavyweights? It's a different than any other year.
What makes you say this year not? Necessarily. Not necessarily. That's pretty much always the case.
I think one thing that the Emmys have in their favor is that they're not the Golden Globes. And what I mean is everyone winks and nods and knows the Golden Globes are a joke that can basically they can be bought because there's very few people who are voters and their qualifications are definitely suspect. The Emmys take itself much more seriously. The voting process is much more rigorous.
The people included in it are much more serious. Then the Golden Globes, I see you at the face you're making. But let's be real. Let's be really real.
The lobbying for this starts the day after the Emmys are. We're not talking about the people conclay. No, I appreciate what you're saying. We talked about how for your consideration season is a season in Los Angeles now to a degree that I didn't know it was before.
I don't think it actually was a few years ago, at least as public facing as it is. So it's worth framing this. And you could have done this years ago, too. But I think it's just much more weaponized now.
Because look, Hulu made the Handmaid's Tale because they were passionate about the subject matter. They couldn't wait to get in business with Elizabeth Moss and all the other people involved in the show. But they did it to get in on their hand. It was Handmaids for Emmys, don't you?
It was Handmaids for Emmys, exactly. That's why they did it really, really. Yeah. And it worked.
I wonder whether what you're reacting to here is that it was always like this. Yes. HBO and FX have been doing very well in awards nominations for the last few years. CBS was a good way for it.
But a lot of the reality shows, amazing race used to just dominate. The contenders are the contenders of the contenders. But not only a lot of sports where there are all of a sudden bean-oop spenders on the block for the market off Netflix and Amazon's marketing power is now something to be reckoned with among the old war horses. And that's why you're seeing what three Netflix shows nominated in drama?
The first time any one service has had three shows nominated in that category. Yeah. And I was curious if you could tell me, often in Oscars, if that happens, we're an ensemble movie. We get two people from the internet that there's this talk of canceling each other out.
Does that happen with networks in Emmys? That's a great question that I think we're going to see put to the test for this drama series, especially for drama. I think House of Cards doesn't have a shot towards the world. Yeah.
Let's just do a little bit of service journalism here and let you guys know outstanding drama series in Emmys are better called Saul FX or sorry, AMC. House of Cards, Netflix, Handmaids, Tale Hulu, Crown Netflix. Now, no Game of Thrones this year, because they missed the eligibility window by taking a little more time on it. That's correct.
Yeah. So there's a big opening this year. And Game of Thrones is off the board. Now, Naby ended.
So it wasn't eligible. Homeland, I guess, people finally paid attention, took other DVRs, didn't make it. So there's an opening. Now, the reason I was saying that stuff about lobbying was just to say it's a crime that the leftovers wasn't nominated for anything except guest actress for handout.
Everyone involved in the leftovers kind of expected that, both because, yes, the show is not highly rated. I mean, the ratings aren't very high. I mean, it's highly rated by critics and who love it. And so it goes into that category of shows like the wire that really just weren't understood or appreciated in their time.
And that's fine. But it's unquestionably the case that HBO, which has the biggest muscle, Netflix seems to be pushing them off their corner a little bit. But HBO, I mean, just look at the way they dominate comedy categories, look at the way they dominate the drama. They could have pushed the drama.
Well, I almost wonder also whether this is. But they push Westworld. Because look, they're people at HBO. I promise you, and I will not name names, who were like, we got the Hindenburg on our hands.
And then they put the show on, and they're like, oh, this is working. OK, so they need this to work. Now, I think the second season's going to be better. But this is an expensive show.
Game of Thrones is ending. They need Westworld to be the standard area. So they propped it. But I also wonder whether or not Netflix's strategy is the exact opposite of that.
Whereas HBO is very highly curated. And they put out what, 10 shows a year, 15, 20 shows a year. They're the most. One night of programming?
Yeah, one night of programming at any given time. So probably around 12 shows a year, I think, right? I think it's probably higher because we put in limited series. But your point is right.
So Netflix puts up 12 shows a week at this point. And it almost feels like sometimes I'll go on a Friday. 97 new pieces of content today. So the idea is basically, whereas HBO is like, we're going to go all in on these.
We're going to put all of our chips on a few horses. Netflix is like, we're buying the horse farm. And if the crown and stranger things happen to get some legs under them, then that's all the better for us. And if for some reason everybody had thought Narkos was like a moving portrait of the drug war and critically acclaimed, that would have been there instead of stranger things.
HBO is a boutique where you walk in, and they have eight things. And they're supposedly they're the best things. And they want, and that's their brand. Their brand is discernment and excellence, and consistent excellence.
Netflix's brand is we will literally water board you with entertainment. We will pour entertainment at you until you're choking for no more entertainment. And then we'll hit you with commies, especially. In the same way that Netflix is dominating the drama category, HBO has a good hold on.
Outstanding limited series, which big little lies, HBO Fargo, FX, Fargo being a limited series. I still don't. It's highly submitted. It's a different show.
A few Betty and Jones, those two FX shows and the night of HBO and Genius. Let's say two things here. We should go through some of these categories and just pick handy cat favorites for you that year. But I did, before we move on to Thrones.
But I did want to say, this last year, I mean, my feeling about Emmys in general, and if you want to see this opinion written, I wrote five of these pieces, I think, at Grandland Expressing my opinion, more else the same every year. Awards are incredibly silly and arbitrary, except when they're not. And you can say this matters only to the business side is inextricable from the creative side, especially, in all entertainment, honestly, but especially in television. These shows are being made.
Like I was saying, Handmaid's Tale is made to put Hulu on the map. You know what I mean? We're all thrilled that Aziz and Elnion get to make Master of None. FX wanted to make it.
It's not like it wouldn't have gotten made. But Netflix understands what it has with it. It puts money towards it, supports it, because it will end up here in this moment at prestige. Well, Fuller House and another Rancher, whatever, one day at a time might actually get more viewers.
They understand that they're being both HBO and ABC, which no one's ever attempted to do that before. But last year was kind of exciting, because it felt like the old order was shifting. There are many players in terms of new shows, new opinions, new voices in television, new services. And a lot of surprises seemed to bubble up more so than usual.
I mean, obviously, the Americans getting along over to a denomination drew a lot of headlines. Tracey Ellis Ross, when he yells Ross, Louis Anderson winning. I can't even pull more off the top of my head right now. But it felt exciting.
It felt like, well, this could go to one of those. Just the OJ thing in general felt like, what is TV now? Yeah. And it felt like, OK, so this peak TV or past peak TV, this tsunami TV could go one of two ways in terms of a war.
It could just turn it. It's flat images. TJ Miller has called it. Well, I would defer to him on all things related to TV and managing a TV career.
I'm just saying, it could go one of two ways, I feel like. And the way it seemed to go last year was, well, it's just going to continue to surprise us. There may not be one consensus show anymore. But what we're getting is a reflection of how we watch TV, which is, oh, here's this and here's this and here's that.
And it's kind of exciting. This year's nominations reflect what I think is more likely going to be the case going forward, which is it feels exhausted. Not just because Modern Family could literally broadcast a test pattern and get nominated for best comedy at this point. It's that people can't watch all the TV.
There's just no, they can't. And if you think people who work in the industry watch more TV, then you on your couch, you're probably wrong. Because they're sick of it. And they're making.
And the critics can watch all these TV. Tim Goodman's a piece a couple weeks ago, and it was in THR about just sort of like using his vacation to try and catch up on television and not even be able to do it. Yeah. So one thing to say, it's not that people didn't like the leftovers.
It's they literally didn't watch it to consider it. That's what you have to realize. And that's a bummer. And what that turns into is a lot of group think a lot of safe choices.
And I think it's kind of an indictment of the era of TV where, and honestly, this list of best Ramanamines. I think better call Saul, we're victims of it too. I've heard this season better call Saul is the best. We haven't even watched it yet, although I definitely is fine.
I'm sorry, Madadabans. It's well made. I have no interest in watching it. You know this.
This is not new. But that doesn't matter. I don't feel like Amanda's just doing a switchblade and putting it back in and flicking out after you said that. She is going to carve the crown into my horror- The crown is just deserving of being here as half of these.
Yes, but I'm saying, I think none of them are particularly exceptional. I think the Handmaid's Tale is something missing. Leftovers is missing. What else is missing?
That's the thing. I think drama is sort of a weird place. I think also the show that not everyone, but a majority of people can say, well, that's truly exceptional. That's moving the media forward.
Those nominees, that's Atlanta in comedy. That's the night of or Fargo in limited series. Drama is a weird place right now. Westworld is straight up a bad show.
This is us. I think it's going to win. But that's really just people saying, isn't it great that the networks can still do something? Stranger Things is a wonderful entertainment that isn't deserving of this.
House of cards, forget about it. Although you're. I'm ready to recap season five, whatever you want. That will not happen.
So I'm just like, do you want to know Tom Yates gets into some shit this year? Listen, listen. Listen, wake me when the when is the hackers guinea pig? Like is that still?
They got it's got got got got resolved. Now we're on to Tom Hammer Schmidt watching him post investigative reporter. You should recap this for me. You send me a letter.
I'm going to do this one day. Instead of doing Game of Thrones, I'm just going to run through cards. I just feel like we should move on. Handmaid's Tale.
And we can talk about this another time. I think Handmaid's Tale is a three star show with five star performances and a five star storyline, honestly, and that people are excited about that show. Three star show. I think the show is pretty good.
And three star and five star narrative behind it in that Hulu, Elizabeth Moss, Reed Murano, and Maggie. Yeah, it would. Maggie out with getting hers finally, shaking up. No, but you know what I mean?
Nothing here is exceptional. It's all fine. And that's I think sort of an indictment of TV in a way. There was a piece on the ringer this week saying something.
This is our segue, if you don't mind. Sure. There's a piece on the ringer this week and this is something that I feel very strongly about too, which is that Game of Thrones is the last consensus model. And by Alison Herman.
Yes. And in Shoutster, I completely agree with that. Yeah, it's a great piece. And we are in an era where these Emmy nominations are fine.
Last years were better than fine, because at least if it was going to be random and subjective, at least it could be surprising. Yeah. Was it a, if you got nominated ones, then you would be nominated forever. Yeah.
Because there was an assumption of consistency. There was an establishment of a name. There was the money going behind it, lobbying. But there was also the assumption that if you'd won or was nominated, people would watch that show.
There's a confirmation bias that, like, the part of the voters were this just like, I am familiar with Cranston. I don't know if you just assumed that he is good. And new members of the Academy would be like, well, it was nominated last year, better watch that show, because I assume it'll still be on that level. Look, the Americans was nominated last year, for what I thought was their best season.
And you know I long thought that's the best show on TV. Best drama show on TV. This season, this year was subpar and it got dinged for it. It was noticed.
It did not get a courtesy nomination. Carrie Russell and Matthew Reese did. But if you're not keeping it up, you're gone. Transparent didn't get a nomination on any series for a year that I agree was not as good, but it's still transparent.
So it's cutthroat, man. Well, Handy Cap, the actual category is a little bit later in the summer. Maybe we'll see if these, if maybe we can lap up some of the pork belly politics of all this, get wind and dine a little bit. I would appreciate that.
I'm not a voter, I'm willing to be a pawn soul. Let me be very clear. Oh, during the swamp, bro. We're going to take a quick break here from our sponsors.
And then we are going to be joined by Mal and Jason to talk about Game of Thrones and introduce our Game of Thrones after show, talk to Thrones after the series. Live on Twitter after the scenes from next week, every Sunday of season 7 of Game of Thrones. Quick break from our sponsors for our sponsors. And then Mal and Jason.
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Why don't you download the Hotel Tonight app now? Okay, we're back. Me and Andy are now joined by our talk to the thrones, co-hosts and the co-hosts of the chart burning sensation that is Binge Mode Colin Game of Thrones. It's Malia Rubin.
Don't say binge mode Colin. I think they're sponsoring us. Binge Mode Colin Game of Thrones. Malia Jason, you guys look great.
Thank you. You're back. You really do look a lot better than it. That's how you do it.
But it's even... What else do I just walked off of the set? One day. So you guys to understand that for the last few months?
Two. I honestly can't remember. I honestly can't remember. Was there a time before Binge Mode?
Malia Jason have been working day and night on Binge Mode. It was an incredible act of scholarship, an incredible act of podcast production by Zach Mack. Matt Axe. And it was just such an impressive undertaking.
And now you guys are back to playing second fiddles to a bunch of bullshit artists. That's epicial. No. I don't know where to start with this, because we could go in a bunch of different directions.
We could talk very specifically about Game of Thrones season seven predictions, which I know you guys are turned up. Turn up on. You're seeing deep into the looking glass here. So what's Game of Thrones?
What is it? Can you explain it to us? Can we set the scene with a couple things? Yeah.
First, I know it's not the traditional way to begin, but... Jourdara Martin, the author of the series. Oh yeah, what happened? Let me just say, he was last night was the premiere of season seven.
He got, he roiled the internet. He did not attend. Right. He was freaking everybody out.
Not about it. I attended. He could walk up. And he was there, by the way.
So Andy has already... Guys, have you heard the Andy was there? I know. I think we have heard it.
The text began. The text began. Andy was just like, what do you guys want to know? And me and Jason were both like, nothing.
That was pretty cool. And I said, I want to sleep on it. Yeah, back to you. I respect your wishes.
I want to spoil anything today, but I did want to say, he was noticeably absent last night. And then he just dropped an internet bomb. He did that before. He did that before.
So he has a red carpet was happening. Right. And he said this was before from the world of ice and fire book of Valeria. When at its peak.
With a kind of very cryptic title that I now forget. And the mood was set... So before globalization. Yes.
Valeria was still pumping out tires. Exactly. And the mood was set to enigmatic. And what did the text say now?
It says, oh Valeria. All right. Yeah. I can get it.
It said something like, oh, here it is. It says... You could sit your mood alive. It says, alas the great city of Valeria that might see city for in one hour is that judgment come.
So everybody thought in one hour we're going to find out when he's releasing this. Or we're getting the actual book. Right. It was like time stamp and the premiere was happening that moment.
That night. in the Thrones world and he didn't Zach Kram, one of our thrones heads, Lodis. I think that it wasn't tagged Game of Thrones or HBO, it was a song by S and Flyer. So the book series.
And nothing happened. It was kind of salty. Like it's moving on without him. No.
You think that's what it was? I think so. That's sad then. There's been no announcement since that he wasn't like, oh I saw that but you guys thought I might be dropping a book and it's like no action.
There was a time magazine interview that came out today where he's like, I've got to finish this. I've got to have a responsibility to my fans but also like by the way I'm gonna be at WonderCon and like wherever it is. So it's like that. I know I was reading so there was a really really amazing it's been a couple crazy weeks for Walking Dead stories like gossip stories.
Oh yeah. And there was a production today. Someone was seriously. Okay, so I got it.
Yeah, right. But there was a conversation about like how much money that they don't like some of the actors on Walking Dead don't necessarily get paid what you think they would but it's partially because they make it all up at conventions is our conventions like almost distracting him because they're so lucrative. Well, listen, you know what else would be lucrative finishing the book? Finishing the book would be a bit weird basically get paid for that.
But he is a co-ep almost possible in the world. He's fine. The thing about George is you have to realize he worked in Hollywood was a writer of Little Renown of sci-fi and fantasy stuff way before this and then became essentially famous like Later in Life. Don't you want to like Chris Ryan?
Don't you want to like enjoy the adulation of your fans? Like right? That would be that would be like emotionally satisfying. Just smashing.
That was like smash. No, I just think he legitimately likes to be around people who really appreciate this world that he's created. That's interesting. Look, you is the implication there.
So the time he's smashing and it's like he's buying out the bar in Santa Fe every day. The only question is that time I get to interview. The time I get to interview. There's some discussion about things that Dan and Dave changed.
My husband David Benioff has done differently than George maybe wanted. Namely, Lee Stoneheart. Yes. And just being like, you know, it was basically like they chose to do their thing and I disagreed but it's a fictional character and it can go lots of different ways.
How are you feeling as devotees of the book as much of the show about the idea that these guys are now kind of like running the show now? It was sad. It's bittersweet still, but I'm just glad that we're going to get it finished. Even if the guy who invented it is not finished.
It's his. Oh my God, I take the torch, man. Listen, George could have just written the books. I mean, I don't want to be that guy because he should live his life and he should live his life in the manner that satisfies him, but he also could have just finished the book if he wanted to.
But it's also interesting because barring something truly bizarre or catastrophic, he likely will finish another book. What shifted is that the definitive story for a majority of the people on planet Earth will be any other voices or shit. That's why I wonder if we'll ever finish. Because what must that feel like?
To devote two decades of your life? This is opus. And to have somebody else share the conclusion of that with the vast majority of the world must be absolutely insane. You're going to find out when Mandy Machado does a parade down Broad Street.
Yes. I hate yoga. Hey, you're welcome. Hey, you're welcome.
Wow. To your point, Jason, about him enjoying the time. Yes, Canyon of Heroes. Yes.
The Canyon of Hoggis. Give me a Marlon. Enjoying spending the time with people who love this world. Let me show you all I will say about the evening last night is nothing about the show.
It was even in a what had to be about is jaded a room as you can get because this is an industry room. It's the executives from networks. It's the cast. It's their publicists, basically.
They were overjoyed to be there before it started when it started clapping, you know, laughing, screaming, shouting, just thrill. Allos. People are so excited for the show. And I feel like we should start there.
We've been talking for a while. But we've been thinking about this because we're playing our show and you guys have been talking about it nonstop. But people are full of joy and excitement that the favorite show is back. Allos.
In her in her monocles or piece that's on the ringer where she sort of loosely almost compared it. It's like it's kind of move beyond television. It's more like it's like it's closest comparison point is almost Star Wars at this point. Yeah.
In terms of the weight that it carries. And also I think that you could describe that to the level of anticipation and excitement. We should be jaded. We've been talking about this professionally twice a week for years now.
We should all, you guys have spent so much time thinking about this. And now it's 48 hours away. What are you most excited about seeing on Sunday? I will say that the most frequent question about binge mode other than how are you guys alive and are you okay?
Is do you still like this? Yeah. That's 100%. I mean, we literally could not do it.
Yeah. I would have, I don't know how much I'll do. There's no way you could do it unless you really like love it. You would have Tom and you would have some kind of stuff to window.
Well, Sir Pounce is fine, right? Sir, sir, just take care of him. I didn't say he would have the window. I was trying to joke about Tom and Sir Pounce.
Sir Pounce is a survivor. Yeah. Yes. So what's the heart of blood or what am I most excited about?
Yeah, what are you excited about? What are you saying? What are you first seeing? Who are you just going to be like, it's not going to be back.
She's the easiest answer imaginable. Yes. I'm excited to be back in the world. You know, it's like when I was...
That is the... We're going to take it one game at a time. Game of Thrones answers. I remember when I was studying abroad and someone at the end was like, what was your favorite part?
And I was like waking up every day and knowing I was in London, right? Like that's a rare and very special thing in life to be surrounded by something and immersed in the world. I'm really excited. You know Game of Thrones is not set in London.
Wow. It's real. I can go there for four and a half months, right? It's just historical.
I know. I've heard Bill ask about the years on the time. Specifically, I'm most excited to be back with John. John.
I'm a John head. I'm sorry. I'm actually not sorry. I'm really apologizing.
I'm really apologizing for being a team John person. He is essentially the main character of the show. Yeah. So many Danny heads out there still though.
Let me say this about the new season. What excited me was the TV part of it. Just because we just said to him, let's get back to it. You're our friends again.
And no show has ever given us a map this big. I mean, in both senses, we're a pal at this large and there's still pairings and possibilities we haven't even considered. Yes. Great actors.
Great actors. Great characters. Great performances. They have not overlapped or shared the story.
Yeah. There's also still more to come and see people who are used to seeing snow and vice versa. Oh, yeah. I mean, Danny and John are the main characters of the show and they've never interacted.
Never ever. Think about that. It's a lot of characters. Never ever.
Never ever. bombs one I love it said he said Johnson always the best character on the show so he's the team Mallory to he turned around like he's driving real slow I want to get there but he wanted to tell me his theory and you want to be like remember him if this happened you did so it worked he believes that there's time travel to come that there's some he's a big time travel guy is he like Brandon is really brand the builder brand time loop causing the mad king to go mad or maybe not causing I thought you were gonna be like John Snow wakes up in the 1950s John Snow wakes up next to his own mom yeah I I've never been into that theory yeah I respect it all one of the things that's most exciting about the story is that everybody can have a pet theory and they can all be weird what's the worst one you've heard though all the ones you've shared the only reason I don't like the brand is secretly the cause of all of this theory is because one of the things that's really cool about the story is the idea of like agency and how characters make their own choices and if brand is the one who caused everything that is stripped out of the story in a way that I don't like I agree with that I have another question for you guys throw to Jason first one thing that I feel like is a carryover from book that I understand to be experienced reading these books I haven't but I'm blocking out some time yeah it's like a little bit resonant like a little bit reminds me of the sort of a certain way watch TV the way people watch world that kind of annoys me which is let's just only make the show about Lucents because Lucents have to be resolved with that in mind should we care if we ever see Gendry again like that's a big theory he's out there he was a Baratheon in my mind I don't see how that makes the show better to go backwards but does that bother you in my life you sense personally as a person it's interesting that you pick that character because and there more don't Google him don't Google I'm at the premier so picture of him it doesn't like Andrew will probably come back I would imagine there's like a crew that is going north it would make sense that he might be with them but I do like I mean I like Lucents I like you know it's like why the Pine Bear in episodes of the Sopranos lives on forever because you don't know where the Russian is why the end of the Sopranos lives on absolutely so I love stuff like that I would hope that they maintain that ambiguity and mystery about certain of the plot yeah I agree I think that's what makes the world feel really like rich and fast is that you can't actually get your arms around all of it you don't understand everything and you probably never can that's actually what's exciting that said this show up until these last two seasons basically had had something that no other show in history is ever able to do which is they could really leave hanging sheds with intention and authority because they knew how they could resolve it in two years so when they told the character just want you to a couple plays out take a year off the Hound brand they knew what they would be coming back to and they could you know it's so they did that with intention with authority and with obviously a plan to come back and I think we might see more of that going forward things that felt significant generally are because they're not that much real estate on the show speaking of significance one of the I think that one of the things especially for casual viewers is to find the show is the scope of the set pieces that has happened usually one to two per season they always find a way to top it and somehow battle the bastards it's top-to-home which top black water and I think I mean is there a degree which we could argue about that or is there yeah okay well that's a lot of horses and open battle the bastards I mean I think it's a fun it's emotionally satisfying episode but it's like it's for me it's like an highly imperfect BOB or it's a top 15 episode but I don't do you write hard home higher than that oh yeah that's it yeah but here's my point this season you guys talked about this we talked about this at Largo yeah looks like it's gonna be a lot of those right and what I'm really curious about and and this is what I'm most excited about is how the Benioff and Weiss and the guys who are making the show find the balance between the more intimate domestic moments that where people transfer literally transfer power in a lot of ways in these back rooms and in throne rooms and all these places and how that stuff manifests itself in these better term battles that I'm sure we're about to see battles that could be between more or less supernatural forces battles that could bring to a close major character storylines and so I'm just fascinated what do you do when the the the needle is either going quiet to deafening right I was actually masking you guys that because I'm really curious about your perspective as television critics like one of the things that so that's just reading like little you know interview tweets and snippets from last night on the at the premiere was almost all the actors to be a through line of them saying you won't believe how different the season feels just because the pace the speed which characters move the amount of sheer plot it's packed into fewer total episodes I think maybe Davos might have been the one who said yeah we filmed for as long right for seven episodes of ten is that a bad thing if the show feels different as an actual television experience there's a good thing I think you know the thing I really liked about last season was and I keep crediting it to them being off book but that might not be fair but it felt loose certain some ways obviously it's a tightly scripted show but there were those moments there were they just felt like there were more human moments it was a funnier show than in years past and in thinking about what's still to come and I say that not the way you guys thought about it I actually don't know but if you even as a casual fan you can connect a couple of dots that have to happen and the show's over right like King's landing has to be done nights king sits on the iron throne double birds over and then don't stop believe in place but but King's landing has to be dealt with in one way or another right questioners has to arrive and Westeros she will have to cross paths with don't know at some point yes there will be a giant fight for survival sure yes but these are the big major things that happen right all I'm saying is there we're saying there are a lot of battles coming clearly there are but there aren't that many turning points left we see the end game and so my thought is there might be more more room than we think for human moments because we have to have to set up each one and then come back down and set up and come back down in order to stretch it across what seven episodes this year and likely six next year we did this thing at Largo which we did a lot of after the thrones were we were sort of talking about things on this map characters where they were and where they were going and I realized very quickly when we were doing it Largo don't really need this anymore because they're basically nine characters left there used to be 20 you know and there used to be in nine different locations in various parts of this world now we are really really squatting up yeah they're really they're and it's compressing and I was wondering for you guys who started rewatching the show and podcasting about it from the very beginning when you know even as for people who were novices to it we were like well Ned's the star right and then not Ned Rob and if not Rob you know and we have now arrived at what should have been always obvious you know for a book reader but as the variables have shrunk you know is it do you find it easier or harder to think about the show do you find it that like how has that changed over the course of the series for you guys in terms of you used to be keeping 25 30 characters all these different locations all these different histories and storylines now you pretty much have everything in front of you it's a really good question not sure I've ever thought about it that way I guess maybe it makes it harder actually yeah because like one of the things that was cool about the community and the fan experience I'm discussing it was that basically like any opinion was valid right and you could just freely like throw an idea into the world and there was somebody there like ready to receive it and engage in a conversation with you and there were so many different plot lines and characters and regions and ideas that like each one right and now it's like basically if you don't have the answer for like xy and z definitively how they've shown the john as the prince I was promised like you don't know how to like talk about the show you know which is so this is basically Game of Thrones is how it's advanced analytics revolution then we're all really mean we're all really being but will our shit work in the playoffs that's a great way to do some seven and eight yeah that's where we're at yeah I don't know any what else you guys looking for to let's let's let's hear from you uh well I think piggybacking off this conversation and kind of the thing that bothers me about battle the bastards is that um George is creating this world that's like totally ruthless in which people who do dumb things get punished and the good things that people do don't always get rewarded and for his story to be emotionally satisfying for the people who spent so much time invested in it um he can't do that anymore like the battle the bastards had to be heroic right you had to do a heroic thing and john did 15 dumb things that Ned would have been punished for had he done them in season one yeah and those are the moves that he has left and punishment fell in rick on right and that tells you that just shows like how or how difficult it is it really is to finish this because he has to contradict himself on someone yeah I wonder whether how much of a difference there is I remember when red wedding happened and I specifically remember you in an email or on tour I can't remember you Jason because of people who need to be disappointed I knew I knew this was coming for so long I couldn't tell you and I was just like this is this this is not supposed to happen this is not you're friends value and his mother are not supposed to get gutted at a wedding dinner the film I didn't run that cartoon yeah and uh I remember that happening but now that the show I think is probably eclipsed the books in terms of popularity in some ways and we were like who do you ever wrote the books I'm just probably like a quarter of the crowd I was just really interesting actually yeah I just think most people didn't clap work at the ringer but still that's might be our problem but you know you guys were going into the show knowing that about stupidity is punished or you know certain things are punished certain things are rewarded now we're kind of like the balance is like the Benny Off and Weiss rules and the Harrington rules and maybe that there's like maybe there is a little bit of a change in sort of outworld here or and this is what I asked you guys the other night as well are we on the other side of the mountain where we were taught to watch the world punished for believing certain things but we've come out of it the other side and now you're going to reward you know which isn't what we imagine but it's it's going to be close like I don't think I'm gonna go I'm gonna go I'm gonna go on a limb guys I don't think the night king is gonna win I'm not saying all are heroes but I don't think that's how this story happens I think maybe the only thing that can prevent what Jason was describing earlier which is like George sort of like subverting his own intentions in some way is that like enough bad things still happen along the right along the way to like success whatever that was like John can be alive at the end and if what he learns about his parentage what that means for the people he cares about new new reunions think we know quote unquote family numbers in his life by him betraying him perhaps who knows I need to even say this put it out loud into the world like ghosts you know that goes but what if what if can't protect those plenty bad things terrible things can still happen yeah one last thing to to think about that I did not appreciate enough but rewatching it seeing scenes from it again last night and then also the the rare list of the best episodes ever confirming it the last episode came with thrones that we saw the season finale of season six is the best episode of the show there's not a wasted second consensus it was the best episode of the show which by definition means it's one of the best hours of TV hour plus ever ever that's incredible I think in the tumult of making our after show last year I didn't pause to appreciate that even though we were watching it last year right so that is and first of all that's unique that for your 60th episode to be your best but what does that do in terms of expectations in terms of because people always there's a this is a different season but for the previous six seasons there's always a part in like around the fifth episode where everyone's like let's get on with it what are we doing except last season the fifth episode was the door was over and like a mind-blower yeah I mean I think that's kind of what like sort of give me peace about all this is last season was the first time they went really not in every single storyline but in the bulk of the storylines really far ahead of the book and like you know get back to what you were asking us earlier like how does that make us us feel like those are just incredible and like to be able to pull off something like the liana john reveal and not only have it live up to expectations that for some readers were people who read oh game of thrones the first book when it first came out that is a mystery they had wondered about for literally 20 years I think crucially today they did it in some history yeah and that's exactly what I was gonna just say it didn't just answer a crucial question it created like 10 new ones that's amazing that's great so that's a great story unless I enjoy this now not just because of what else I'm saying about the monoculture but this is everyone at the peak of their powers and the last episode that people make the show made was the best truly was production direction writing performance that just doesn't happen 60 you don't get episodes in and not just that I'm gonna just shout out you guys and also people listening the fandom is at its peak people love this people are on board and when those two things are happening at the same time that's that's very special that's yeah that's what creates the the water cooler moments that we've been talking about since the beginning of podcasting where we're just like oh and we feel as being scraped away one by one by various like you know by the fact that we all watch television at the same time in the same way at the same pace anymore this is really is the last thing where we will be together we will be together times for me to talk about this because literally because they're because they're met the world but we forewill we because it demands it so speaking of which Sunday nights we will be doing Talk With Run's live on Twitter so the ringer presents Talk With Run's live explain again how people that app is still free by the way that website is still free you can watch us basically it will be on all of our feeds and the ringer's Twitter feed so if you subscribe unexplored right if you like press your support button we should be there to yeah I think the easiest thing to do is just go to twitter.com slash ringer after the show and it will be right let's also say that we will be live after the east coast airing that our episode will exist yeah you do not need love it if you would join us like it if you interact with us you can tweet it us start it whenever you want it'll be there but we will be there. People have been asking if there is going to be a podcast of that episode if the ringer show the talk show will be available afterwards to podcast it will not. Okay the watch will be going on Mondays I'm sure we will be frequently joined by Jason and or Mallory on the watch on Mondays Jason and Mallory are going to continue their deep dives is that going Wednesdays?
TbD TbD TbD TbD TbD TbD Binge mode will be will be coming at some point right now. During the middle of the week ish right doing a very deep dive for for the scholars and the heads. Greenwald and I will be on on Thursdays on the re-up talking exclusively about Jeremy Runner's real estate. Yeah!
How are his arms? Can I shout someone out here? Guest of the watch, Emi Snub, named Linda Woff. Nice.
I'm sorry it's a tragedy I'm just shouting not to Ted it's a hard day. Ultimate Hulk versus X-Men called us Wolverine fans. Called me on this. He said how could we be who we claim to be and not have gotten on the mics on Monday and said how did Jeremy Runner break both his arms?
Answer, Witting Houses. Like why did we not tell them? That's the kind of just over man. He said that he's right.
Shout to him. He deserved an Emmy on that joke. That's a full week of stuff right Sunday night talk the thrones on twitter.com It's still free. Monday the watch, Andy and Chris mid-week Mal and Jason binge mode for deeper dives into Game of Thrones.
More Thursday, Andy and I will short a shout about Game of Thrones. Maybe we'll grab one of you sometimes for a preview question. Yeah, I mean we're all we're all on the same team. Working together for one big goal and that is for the night's king to the Great War.
Finally meet his Luber back in the 1950s. He's a Luber or his Luber. I don't know what a Luber is because it's not so good. My missing name sounds actually useful.
Be honest with you Andy. It must get really chaffy out there. I don't know any like you could probably use a blue version. If you could use them.
I don't think there's anything else. Sunday night, join us Talk to Thrones after the scenes from next week. We will be on. We can't wait.
Well, I'm a special guest. Yes. I assume. Franny Greenwald, for Jason Kessetto from Alaruban.
Can't wait to talk to you guys more about game. Let's go! Brains, let's do it. Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by Hotel Tonight.
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