Product Discovery, Outcome Based Delivery, And Hiring for Product Thinking with MAC of Wednesday.is

Is your team writing code before they've actually validated the problem? In this episode, Ashok sits down with Mohammed Ali Cherwala (MAC), co-founder of Wednesday Solutions, to dismantle the traditional "build first" mentality. Mac explains why "Product Engineering" is distinct from simple software development and how his firm uses "Sprint Zero" to validate ideas cheaply using methods like fake door tests and prototypes—ensuring you don't waste capital on features nobody wants. We also dive into a radical business model shift: moving from hourly billing to outcome-based pricing, where clients pay for moved metrics rather than hours worked. Mac shares how this aligns incentives and reduces founder burn. Plus, we explore how hiring has evolved in the age of AI, why "framework thinking" beats instinct for Product Managers, and real-world examples of using on-prem LLMs to automate compliance and QA at scale. In this episode: Sprint Zero: How to use discovery sprints to validate business gaps before building. Outcome-Based Pricing: Why charging for results is better than charging for time. Hiring with AI: A new interview simulation to spot engineers who think like product owners. Automating Quality: How defining "what good looks like" enables AI agents to take over manual QA. The "Ocean's 11" Team: A metaphor for building high-trust, specialist teams. Mentioned in this episode... Wednesday Solutions: Mac's product engineering firm. Books: The Mom Test, Continuous Discovery Habits. Tools: Gemini Bot, Code Rabbit, PostHog, Clarity, Testim, Keploy, Fathom, PRDkit.ai. Service: Urban Company (InstaHelp). Unlock the full potential of your product team with Integral's player coaches, experts in lean, human-centered design. Visit integral.io/convergence for a free Product Success Lab workshop to gain clarity and confidence in tackling any product design or engineering challenge. Subscribe to the Convergence podcast wherever you get podcasts including video episodes to get updated on the other crucial conversations that we'll post on YouTube at youtube.com/@convergencefmpodcast Learn something? Give us a 5 star review and like the podcast on YouTube. It's how we grow.   Follow the Pod Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/convergence-podcast/ X: https://twitter.com/podconvergence Instagram: @podconvergence