I'm Brian Myers. I'm Mike Ratowick. I'm Becky Hiddad. And this is Alpellis, a podcast featuring tips for ag teachers.
We are your agricultural education resource across the web, sharing research based tips and tackling the tough questions facing agriculture teachers every day. Hey everyone and welcome back to Alpellis Tips for Ag Teachers Podcast. This is Brian, Becky, and Mike. We are here by the Alpellis and we are once again with some experts here in agricultural education.
We've got Matt Wood and Michelle Burrows. Matt and Michelle, welcome to Alpellis. Thank you. Thank you guys.
Well, we are looking forward to another great conversation we have here. A little bit of behind the scenes we were talking about the weather. We are recording this during the great snowmageddon of 2024 here in January. And there is snow precipitation in the rest of the country and there's pollen precipitation here in Florida.
And my good friends were making fun of me with my sinuses. But I need to hang out with better people. We're making fun of you. I don't think Mike, you didn't set a thing.
He set it with his eyes. He set it with his eyes. He can leave my mind. Yeah.
To get us started here, Matt, tell us a little bit about yourself. Yeah, sure. So my name is Matt Wood. I'm a PhD candidate at Utah State University in the Career Technical Education Program.
I completed my undergraduate work at West Virginia University and my master's at the University of Arkansas, both in agricultural education. And currently I am in my seventh year of teaching as an agro science teacher in Southern Delaware, where I've been teaching courses in plant and soil sciences, animal science, and then AP environmental science. Matt, that's exciting. I feel like you are single-handedly trying to cover agriculture education across this country.
Yes. Every corner of the country. It's that motto. Move west, my friend.
Move west. I know. It's the way to do it. Yeah.
Sure. I'm Michelle Perros and I am currently an assistant professor here at Utah State University in the Ag Education Program, primarily. I'm also the team leader for the National Center for Agricultural Literacy, which is housed at Utah State, formerly a high school agriculture teacher from Nevada. So I taught in Reno and for an area.
Excellent. Well, thanks so much for joining us. We're glad to have you here with us. So Matt, give us kind of an overview of what we're going to be talking about today.
Yeah, sure. So paper that Michelle and I and Dr. Tyson Sorensen and another faculty member at Utah State University, we had written a paper on essentially the whole theme is around inclusion diversity and equity and the paper was attitudes and professional development needs of school-based ag teachers on inclusion diversity and equity. And really what prompted this study was, we've seen over the years this decline in a bunch of different factors.
So the number of teachers in the profession, a lack of diversity in the profession, the number of Caucasian agriculture teachers and agriculture students is still hovering around 82% for ag teachers and then Caucasian students in FFA is well over 60%. So with this decline in diversity amongst ag teachers and amongst the profession as a whole, how has ag programs, how have they been affected? We know the previous research has found that minority students have a harder time connecting with ag teachers and with the profession. So we wanted to dive into that and see what are ag teachers attitudes towards inclusion, diversity, equity, what professional development do they need so that they can better support their students so that we can welcome really all students to the ag classroom.
Yeah, so maybe a good place to start Matt would be for ag teachers and pre-service teachers that may be listening to this help define and kind of unpack what you mean around DEI, what those principles mean and kind of what the focus is here. So a lot of times Michelle and I were kind of talking about this before the podcast, so inclusion, diversity and equity and a lot of times when we use those terms, we kind of throw those terms around. I feel like ever since 2018, 2020, online, it's been kind of those buzz words, right? We say those words a lot in education and a lot of times we gravitate towards those areas that we think that means.
So we think about race a lot of times but when we talk about inclusion, diversity and equity, it's not just that, it's looking at students from different socioeconomic statuses, their backgrounds, their ethnicities, their cultures, their sexual identity, all these different facets make up this umbrella of inclusion. So really the focus was for us to tap into how can we get students from a variety of different backgrounds into the I class room. I really appreciate you talking about that variety of backgrounds. I think often we see that diversity term we tend to think and we even mentioned at the beginning we think about the white not white dichotomy but I think I was having this conversation with somebody recently and thinking about my own time as an ag teacher, especially thinking about the attitudes piece.
I certainly hoped that I wanted inclusion but I had no idea how to talk about it. So when it comes to this attitude around what counts in inclusion, what counts in diversity, how do I even talk about this, how do I approach it? I think when we think about just where the attitude comes in, what does that look like, what do you find in terms of how people are approaching this? Yeah, so I'll speak to more of what we found and then if Michelle wants to maybe talk about how it can be applicable to ag teachers.
So when we did our study, it was interesting. So we specifically looked at two different states. So we looked at Delaware because that's where I currently am teaching and then we also survey teachers in Utah because the other two faculty members on this paper are based in Utah and I'm doing my coursework through there. We found overall that teachers had kind of like a mixed set of things were mixed.
So for instance, one of the statements that teachers rated favorably was every student at my school regardless of their background could benefit from my ag education program. But at the same time, they rated the statement, I want my agriculture program to reflect the demographics of the school the lowest. So they have like these like mixed feelings about it. Additionally, when we look at one of the questions we asked them were about their thoughts about how inclusive the profession was.
33% of teachers said that they were aware of individuals who thought there was an issue with inclusion, diversity and equity in the profession but they themselves did not think it was a problem. And then there was 37% of teachers who believed it was a problem and that they would support kind of some sort of small scale change. So there was a clear divide or subgroup within the teachers that we surveyed. So Michelle, I don't know if you want to maybe kind of add on to that or talk about how that might be applicable to teachers.
I was thinking about this research. I kind of, I know we did, we surveyed teachers in Utah and teachers in Delaware. But really I think some of their responses may actually connect back to where they are located. I think about my experience as an act teacher teaching in an urban area is very different than possibly somebody else's experience teaching in a rural area or teaching in a different state in an urban area.
And so I think that's really important for our teachers to think about when they're thinking about IDE. What does that look like at their school? What does diversity look like at their school or in their program? Again, I go back to my experience as a teacher where I, back when I was teaching high school, this wasn't as much of a hot topic I would say as it is now.
But so I feel like a lot of us are doing these things. We just don't realize that we're doing them. They don't maybe have a name or didn't have a name. And so one of the, one of the recommendations that we make in this paper that Matt makes is the fact that if we're thinking about ag education for all, this is really important.
I think when we're starting, when we're really thinking about what does this look like in our classes, what is IDE? Maybe many of the teachers don't think there's a problem because they're already addressing it. They don't see it as a problem where they're at. But if we're teaching, and I'm thinking also from the teacher prep side, when we're working with our pre-service teachers, our goal ultimately is for our ag programs to be accessible to all of our students, no matter what their background, what their ag experience is, and what their previous knowledge is, and you know, their socioeconomic status and all of the other categories that we can talk about in terms of students.
And so thinking about how we apply this in our classrooms, like how do we do that? How do we make this content that we're teaching accessible to all of our students? That's really where we need to start thinking about that. That's an important question and one that we've been having a lot.
Again, you know, we should talk about your experience. My same experience, I think about this as well, about the geography and where you are. We have a lot of small, rural schools, especially where I was teaching that there was no diversity in the school alone in the FFA or the agate classrooms. So what's that common way to look with that ag teacher?
How do you have those conversations with them to do that? And then I think about you're in Florida, when we were having a lot of these conversations about this, I had a couple of ag teachers come up to me and we were talking about it, and it was like, I don't understand this conversation because they taught in schools where it was a majority minority school, and their ag program and FFA chapter was a majority minority, and they were like, what do you mean people are doing? This is, they don't understand because you focus on your own experience. Like, this is what, isn't it, am I like this?
Well, no, no, it's not. And I don't know, how do you, from your findings and from your own experience, how do you frame those conversations based off of the ag teachers experience? I think you're right, that does differ greatly across the country, even within the state sometimes. In our paper, we talked a little bit about kind of the, you know, when we surveyed our teachers, we also looked at professional development and what teachers needed in order to ensure that they have inclusive environment for their students.
And some of the professional development topics, this might kind of lend itself to that question. So, first of the day, one in professional development, where they were able to tap into students lived experiences when teaching to their cultural capital, identifying curriculum resources to enhance inclusivity, and then advocating for minority students. So, really, at the end of the day, you know, when we talk about how restate is going to be different and how we have those rural programs and those urban programs, I think it's going to be more of a tailored experience where we have those conversations with teachers in an urban setting might look very, very different than a teacher in the same state, but in a more rural setting. But those were kind of the three main professional development topics that teachers felt like really gravitated towards, but it really would just have to be more of a tailored experience kind of talking individually with teachers to see how they can implement those practices in the classroom.
One thing also that I just want to mention that also did come up, it was kind of a lower on the scale, but I think this harkens back to Brian's comment about like where you were from and where you were teaching, and even my comments, teachers mentioned recruiting students from diverse backgrounds into their ag programs. And that can be challenging if you don't have a diverse background, a diverse group of students to pull from. And so just ensuring that when you do have that opportunity available to you that you are doing it, if that makes sense. Obviously, if you live in an area where there isn't a lot of diversity even within the school, you're going to do the best that you can to help your program mirror the demographics of your school.
And again, to kind of, you know, Michelle is saying, you know, when we say diversity, you know, don't kind of put yourself in a box and think, just race, you know, there's a lot of other factors to consider when we talk about diversity. You know, I think that's an important point, Matt, because when a lot of times when we hear diversity, we hear inclusion, we have a pretty close mental model of what that looks like. And so I think one of the kind that you made earlier that resonated with me is, again, for all. And so what's that mean for a local program?
How do we define all and what's that look like so that it is inclusive and whatever diversity is and how you want all of the different ways in which you want to define that locally, you have a diverse student body participating in education. So how do you define all locally, I think, is an important thing for me to think about. I also have been thinking about how you tapped into those experiences. Like, I think thinking about my own students.
Even my own students now, like, I think the diversity we can't see, you don't often know who your students are who are on a free or reduced lunch or who are like, they're with all these different things that come into diversity. I think that tapping into students' lived experience really resonates because there are so many things that you can't see about what your student needs. And so kind of then priming those second two of being able to identify those regular resources or advocating for your students. If we can't tap into that lived experience, we get a little stuck, I feel like.
So what are you saying, all of those music and movie quotes from the 70s and 80s that are getting more? I mean, I'm not going to take this. There are a bunch of movies I haven't seen, but... Mike, yeah.
Mike, those quotes didn't work before. So there's no way they're going to work later. Another conversation I've been having with some folks around this area is, as a lot of states, well, we're talking about the conversation around school-based agate programs and the conversation around FFA programs, everything chapters. And a lot of states are moving to affiliate membership to where basically you enroll in the class and you are an FFA member, which I think, you know, I'm a big proponent of the every student, every day, every class, and kind of a thing that potentially this could...
mask some of our assessments or metrics we use in measuring inclusion and diversity and access, because at least in our state, we have a lot of pro... One thing we're seeing, and we're trying to address this, we have most of our school-based agate programs represent the school and the community by numbers. Look at that very well. Pretty darn close in a lot of places.
Where we see a disparity happening is in FFA membership, or in FFA participation. We're not seeing that transitioning into FFA. And one of the things that we were kind of using as a yardstick was FFA membership to look at how progress we're making. And now when we move to affiliate membership, we no longer have that.
What's some advice we have for teachers and state leaders that we're trying to assess where we're going to help provide these opportunities? What kind of things would we be paying attention to to be able to track our progress in here and how we make continued efforts on this rather than just say, hey, look, our other thing, membership matches all of our school population. It just doesn't matter that nobody in these categories ever shows up to a FFA event. Brian, I think you make a really good point.
You know, just kind of talking about my experience. I teach in Southern Delaware and I am in a highly populated location with a lot of EL learners. So I have a lot of Hispanic and Haitian Creole students that actually, if you look at my program, I probably, you know, Caucasian students are probably the minority. But when we look at my FFA chapter, it's predominantly white.
So I think when we talk about some of the initiatives that, you know, I don't want to specifically talk about national FFA, but like for instance, some of the FFA events could be more so tailored to students who don't fit the traditional mold. And I think so far they've done a really good job of, you know, kind of branching out and doing that, but you know, just talking about my own state and other states in the United States have done it as well. But doing like, for instance, like a Spanish creed or different events to make it more enticing for students who maybe don't fit the traditional ag student mold to want to buy into participating FFA, participating in the ag program. And again, not being up on FFA, but I think something could happen from covering around SAE, it could be around, you know, the different types of courses that they're going to take and the different activities that they're going to be happening.
I think there's a lot of things that happen in there and FFA is an easy target to the so prominent. Also, just a quick mention to you about, and I know as I teachers, we're really good at this to get to know our students. I know that there are times when we're working with parents too, and parents don't understand the importance of certain aspects of the ag education program. It's kind of a learning curve for them.
And so making that effort to reach out to parents who may not understand the importance or the opportunities that say an SAE or being involved in FFA can provide for their student, for their child. So that may just may be requiring an additional step. That's one other area where we can really encourage students that participate in those. Excellent.
Matt, Michelle, any final thoughts for us as we wrap up? This is a great conversation? No, not that I can think of, I do, I think we have a really good productive conversation and do encourage ag teachers out there to take a look at the paper. I think that they will find that there's some interesting insights that maybe they could take with them and apply it to the classroom.
Yeah, I would just also encourage teachers to think about what a diversity equity inclusion really means to their classroom and their program and how they can support all students to be a part of their programs, which I think we do a pretty good job of. But we're always looking to improve. Well, that's a great wrap up there because all the important things very rarely have a check on the to-do list as well. It's an ongoing conversation, ongoing focus that we need to be doing.
And so many of the important things in life tend to have that kind of a mindset to do that. I really appreciate the conversation. Matt and Michelle, thank you so much for being with us today here on Out pellets. For all of our listeners out there, I hope you interact with us on social media.
Take a look at all the resources that we're going to have available there and really appreciate you joining us again here on Out pellets tips for ag teachers. We hope you've enjoyed this episode of Out pellets. Check out our website for more information on this topic and to learn more about our guests. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram to stay connected and be sure to subscribe to our podcast so you'll never miss an episode.
For Mike and Becky, this is Brian here by the Out pellets saying thank you and we look forward to seeing you again on another episode of Out pellets tips for ag teachers.