Welcome to the PUBCAST. Welcome to the much anticipated heat episode of the PUBCAST. Allison and Rob joined me to break down this great 1995 classic from director Michael Mann, the Chicago guy. This is the first time De Niro and Pacino appeared in the same scene together, both were in Godfather 2, but never in the same scene.
Heat might be the pinnacle of Michael Mann's gritty 80s aesthetic, and as a story he loved so much he made it twice. Before heat, he had basically the same script and characters in a TV pilot called L.A. Take-Down. This is the movie that 18 years ago, Rob proclaimed, was in his top five of all time.
We laughed him out of the room. You have to listen to the first 15 minutes to see if he makes his case or changes his tune. So strap on your body armor, grab your AR-15 and join us for a downtown shootout. As we break down, heat.
You want to be making moves on the street, have no attachments, allow nothing to be in your life that you cannot walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you spot the heat around the corner. In the city of Los Angeles. Recognize the ammo? Is that they're good?
If you think these guys are scoring once they pass it through, I doubt it. A relentless police detective is on the trailer of a master thief, your fugitive number one with a bullet, disnoble the risk here. You're wrong, it's four times the risk, and I'm double the worst trouble you ever had. And his reckless partner.
Bank is where's the risk? You should take it down. You might want full surveillance, 24 hours, round the clock, we never close open seven days a week. We assume they got our phones, assume they got our houses, assume they got us.
Bam, bye-bye. They get more daring with every score. What's the estimate? 12.2 million.
You're on. But one cop is here. Make a few. It is closing in.
Whatever score they're going to take next. They're going to have the surprise of a lifetime. Now, for the first time, Academy Award winner Al Pacino and Academy Award winner Robert De Niro collide. If I'm the man, I've got to put you away.
I'll tell you. You're not going down. What if you do got me boxed in? And I've got to put you down.
Because no matter what, you will not get in my way. I will not hesitate. For a second. Al Pacino, Robert De Niro, Val Kilmer, in a Michael Mann film.
Heat. Okay, Heat, 1995. No nonsense plot. A group of high-end professional thieves start to feel the heat from the L.A.P.D.
Is there a quote or no? No. I just air quoted it in my mind. When the LAPD, no, they unwillingly leave a clue at their last heist.
I feel like someone slick. That wasn't the last time. Yeah. I mean, whoever this writer was really took a step over the line.
I feel like... Inactorate. Yes. It's the worst ever.
Quick intro is ever. It's officially the worst, no nonsense plot ever. First half? Fine.
Second half? What? Yeah. All of a sudden it turns into an editorial.
It completely fell down after the word heat. Okay. Okay. This was 95.
I definitely saw it in the theatre. I have no recollection of seeing it moving in the theatre. It would have been with you or you or... I'm sorry, did the release date exact?
It was December. Oh. Of 95. Could have been during Christmas time?
December 15th, probably. Yeah, then that means yes. I mean, we could have been home. I don't believe...
I don't remember seeing this in the theatre. I very likely did. I wouldn't have waited 95 this time. I liked that none of us remember.
No, it's really entertaining. It's an entertaining podcast. I don't. Old people who can't remember.
I don't remember one of the first time I saw this. We talked about these movies in 82. I remember distinctly seeing the theatre. I know.
Well, the fact that it's been coined one of the greatest movies. Yeah, we'll get to that. But none of us remember... It made no impression on the first time we saw this.
Well, we should start creating a scale of shashank intensity. Because if it's on... I'm watching it. I'm stopping for a second, at least.
That's a rewatchable scale. I already watch it with that. But it's up there with shashank for me. To be honest, I kind of just skipped out.
What? Well, because he's seen it 67,000 times. But it's on every day always. Sitting down and watching this, I said this today.
I think it's the first time, since seeing it in the theatre, which I'm assuming I did at this point, I'm guessing, that I've watched it start to finish uninterrupted. Oh, yeah, I couldn't even do it. It's long. It's long.
But in the past, I'd watch 15 minutes on TV, or half hour, or the last 45 minutes. But I've never watched it start to finish since 95. I mean, the first time I, in a long time, had it in decades that I'd watch it, I had to be on a flight to San Francisco to have full runtime to be able to watch it and interrupt it. In doing that, I really finally figured out the characters, and I wasn't confused at all.
Like, oh, Van Zant and the guy who is Charlene's side piece. Are they different people? Do you spoiler alert here? No.
It's a 30-year-old movie I think. All right. Yeah, so there's that. I do, I want to dive into the heart of this podcast already.
You can't resist. You cannot resist. This is the whole reason why we're doing this. 15 years ago?
No, no longer than that. 20 years ago. We have almost 20-year-old. We have kids before that.
No, we did not have children. We're at your Allison's birthday party on the top of rock bottom brewery in Chicago. Oh, yeah. I didn't recall that location.
I recall being elevated though. We're on a roof. Right. And it's getting late and we're drinking.
Side note, I have a 5K the next morning. I'm supposed to be running at 8 a.m. I remember like, oh, it's the same though. I'll be fine.
And then definitely didn't go with the fights. Oh, you didn't even go? No. And we had this conversation of top five movies.
Yes. Our favorite movies of all time. And this is the conversation I always have. Not the best ones.
Your favorite five. Those are two different things. Right. So in my five is essentially the same five for the past 25 years.
Your top five is the same six every time. And I go, order doesn't matter. But the top of other one and two, good fellas, big Lebowski. And my fifth spot is a constant rotation of snatch and casino rail.
Do you feel me? Yeah. I love it more than most. Yeah.
Everyone. I always go to that. And so we're doing this round robin thing. What's your five?
What's your five? We come to Rob. And Rob says his top five. I don't feel you have this level of detail recall on this.
I don't know your top five. I remember your top five better than mine. Okay. So you might know it.
Rob's top five goes, he throws out a godfather. He throws out a good fellas. He throws out a jaws. And then the natural.
The natural is on your back. That was very, yeah, sure. That was very peculiar. That's just me, I think.
I'm not a post-network. I don't think one of the thousand people would say snatch is at the top five. No, sure. I fully accept that.
I'm good with that. Natural five. I don't think anyone bought it for natural. The number five, Rob throws down heat.
I almost turned inside out. I laughed so hard. I don't know why it struck me so immediately. Yeah.
The story really isn't my stupidity. It's Al's reaction to whatever I said. Because it was, you know, it's just a little bit of a right side of my head. I couldn't make a heat top five.
Oh my god. Well, first of all, I really- You know, you're not a top five, a high school movie. That I would challenge you on. But I- It's a discussion.
I believe that my prediction moves closer and closer to accuracy every day. Wow. It's just not there yet. That's unfortunately the story.
Have you broken a hundred yet? Because it's moving up? I mean, especially in reading the glowing press for heat two. Heat's awesome.
And the commentary on some of the research work for the 25th anniversary. Sure. It's a great movie. Is that probably a great movie?
It's not a fine movie. It's a fine movie. Listen, it is a great movie in the sense that there's a lot of thought went into it. It's obviously so amazing.
Performance says, I think I love Michael Mann in this story and these characters were clearly an obsession for him because he kept revisiting them throughout his career and continues obviously with the book and everything else. So he loves these people. So I love- there was a depth to it that was awesome. And I don't know, maybe I was lonely in time or something.
I don't know. But- It was one of the- I am convinced it was the hardest I've laughed in my entire life. Well, I do. I don't know why.
I really- honestly, I don't know why it caught me. No, it's a movie that people talk about. We all know about it. But no one would think it- Everyone who like everybody who loves it ranks it number 16 or whatever it is.
No one, no point is it. It's like a fish shop. I would be that guy at the American Film Institute. I'd like to make some nominations.
We seem to be steam rolling through things here. I mean, if I hear gone with the win one more fucking time. Right. Right.
Right. So citizen came. Yeah. That one's fine.
I have a suggestion though. We are watching this. Both of us- that aside. Both of us snickered at a lot of the writing.
A lot of the- certain lines were delivered. You're like, what? What was that? That's just Michael Mann wrote that and I sat back and I did it.
I did it. That line? Well, give me an example. When Pacino says, what are you an owl?
Who? There's a lot of Pacino's- When time signs are- When time signs are- for me, the action is the juice. Michael Mann threw down his typewriter and was like, fuck it, hell. I'm having a terrible time reading you.
You're mocking that? I'm mocking it. I love this movie. Because- Those lines are ludicrous.
Well, I don't want to jump to the apex of the movie, but there were times of- It's very cartoony. Dialogue in the movie that I actually called being worse than they were. Which ones? Well, I'm thinking especially with Pacino and De Niro.
Oh, yeah. They were far better than I remembered them is what I'm trying to say. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
I just- I thought those were well written. Yeah. I mean, and I think I'm also accepting the fact that I'm watching it now with 2022 eyes versus in 35. Of course.
That always affected. Like, some of the writing actually took me out of the movie. Like, so you're watching and watching and watching it, like a certain ability of tension. And then there's a super corny line.
And I'm like, fuck. Well, I feel like it is a little- Actually, John, I didn't like giggling. I'm serious. I'm serious.
I'm serious. I'm serious. There's four of them. That was more her choice.
That was more her choice. I kind of felt like, but so, yeah. But I do- I will say that he- the man is typically such a great vibe creator, right? Like, his whole thing is like, let me just present- Like, I was watching Clateral actually, almost as much as I watched- I watched it for the first time a couple months ago.
And there's just- he has an ominous lens on LA that is like, man, that place. And he like makes it almost like a backdrop to every scene. And I thought he did that well in heat, but then he would interrupt it a little bit by- Right. So like, that's a little hoke- like, there's some hoke- But like the conversation between De Niro and Vel Kilmer when Kilmer crashed at his place.
Right. That's good. Right. Couple conversations with Amy Burniman.
I think are pretty good. And then there's some of the clunkers that are you like- I agree. Like, even the Tolo club scene, some clunkers in there. Oh my god.
Not even on his part, but on their part. Yeah, yeah. So I guess there's- Why does Michael Man set these movies in LA? He's got a thing, right?
He's like, obviously he's either in love or hate with the city. Clearly a Chicago guy and likes Chicago. He also probably defined Miami more than anyone else, right? Yeah, but it's also- But that's the fantasy part of it is LA versus Chicago.
Yeah. I don't want to jump ahead. I'm jumping ahead anyway. What are we doing?
Yeah. But the trivia part. But these are all based on real- Right. But that's what I'm saying.
That's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm saying Chicago.
That's a little bit more real, but LA's in fantasy. Look, there's a lot of Chicago stuff. You mean the New York Times number one bestseller? I think the people are spoken.
I was telling you- You don't go down in history. Oh. Oh. I did not finish the book.
Have you purchased it? I've been reading it. I'm reading it. I'm recording the way through it.
Oh, I was joking. I was like, should we all read it before then? Is it good? The first chapter I read, I turn it out.
I'm like, this is not written very well. Yeah. This is not a well written book whatsoever. Like, it's written by a 12 year old.
It got better, but at the beginning, it's very stilted and tiny little sentences and it's very unusual. It's set in the five. It's fine. I think it'll be good.
So far it's good. But the same problem I had with some of those lines in the movie, in the book, I thought this was kind of weird. Anyway, this movie has a cast of thousands. Really?
Everywhere you turn is a guy you recognize or have heard of or I don't know where Henry Rollins shows up. So let me just run down the names of- What are you doing as crazy poetry? So these are the names of guys that if you see them, see them, you know them if you don't know the name already. On a podcast not so great with the visuals but also the names out.
I would think all these people are known to some degree. Robert De Niro, Al Pacino, Val Kilmer, Tom Sizemore, John Voigt, Amy Breneman, Ashley Judd, Michael T. Williamson, Bubba, Ted Levine, Jamie Gum, Dennis Haysbert, the Allstate guy, Joe Boo, Wes, Study, Study. I don't know him by his name but he is the 60 year old Native American actor that's been in everything over the past 30 years.
Oh yeah, Wes world. Yeah. Is he a Wes world? Oh, okay.
Natalie Portman, William Fickner, Hank Azaria, Danny Trejo, Es Trejo. Yes. He plays himself. Should he be anybody else?
Henry Rollins. I think that's kind of his name, right? I played me. And a nice little out of left field Henry Piven for the win.
Jeremy Piven? Jeremy Piven. You did? Jeremy Piven.
Jeremy Piven. I was telling him about Kanye. They probably listed him by his real name. I didn't see it.
Yeah. So that is a... There's a who's who there? That is insane.
That's a huge number of actors in one of the week. And I mean, I can't, I'm trying to think back. Man also not known for like huge cast like that. No.
Like, collateral is 75% of the movies. Two guys talking. And then even the lecture stuff was always just the one on one interplay between... And even public enemies, there's largely like three people.
Those type of things. He likes conversations, not like. Yeah. That's it.
I want to get... Okay, we talked about that is... Oh, I did. This was actually in this section.
It wasn't in the trivia section. So that's based on actual real events in the 1960s between Neil McCauley and Detective Chuck Adamson, right down to the final shootout in Chicago. Yeah, right? Yeah.
Yeah. Born in Chicago, grew up roughly at Kedsie in North Avenue. Oh, Michael. Michael Mann.
Okay. I was helping her listen. No, you're right. Yeah.
You're right. Moved to Humble Park and went to a Muddson, Amundson. Adamson, right? Adamson.
Yeah, high school in the city and then went to UW Madison. Okay, here's the first question for the distinguished panel. I was thinking was that not? Can Michael Mann, is he capable of writing female characters?
No, I'm not. Apparently not. 100% now. No.
No. So I wrote down a string of movies, and I'm like, we can't really do this. No. He's got a bunch of other movies, but Manhunter?
No. No. No. Is there a woman in that movie?
No. No. Manhunter, Keet, the insider, Ali, collateral. My advice, I didn't see, but we know what my advice is.
There's a J&T in the beginning and a collateral too. There are women in there, but it doesn't mean they're good parts. And man, public enemies. Was he also transformers?
Michael Mann? No. I want to see him. Michael Mann, transformers.
Yes. I mean, cool. I'm thinking of. Michael Baker.
Michael Baker. That's what I'm thinking of. Yeah. So poorly or non-existent character development for the female characters, but also like zero connection between the two male leads and their girlfriends whatsoever.
Well, I know I take issue with that. I was going to say, I think Amy Burnham and I think it has more to do with performance, actually, but she and Ashley Judd, I thought, did really well with those characters. Like I thought they were real. And like the scene between Chris and Charlene, obviously, you know, with the hand signal is kind of iconic from the movie.
Yeah, iconic. That's a pretty iconic, for an iconic film. Right. Right.
And then even the attention, I think, with Edie. So anyway, he doesn't have a good track record. How would they connect it? They're kind of...
They just met it. You're a diner. That's it. I know.
What was so special about their mom? Yeah. It was a vibe. Was it?
Yeah. You just felt it. I understood it magically. Yeah.
So you don't think that he has this... If you guys should call him out, are you only? That's right. She did.
She challenged him. I think that was part of it. It's a book about medals. But I mean, it is hard to have a character.
Why are you asking? Why are you so interested in what I do? It's a good vibe though. It's a nonsense.
I like his character. I like his character. She is a... I feel like the women are an afterthought.
Well, I think the best of the can. They do the best they can with the parts that are written for them. Two good afterthought. They are so powerful as to the story.
They add almost nothing. There isn't any female character in the movie that adds something to the movie. You want to cut them out. No, that's true.
If this maybe would have been three hours and ten minutes, then we would have to. I mean, it would take away from the... The... You can't...
What is that? I'd have to write it. Look at it. He can attach anything you can't walk over.
That's why he's pretty sorry. So there's a challenge there. That's the ethos of the film right there in these relationships. But I do think it's...
I don't think it was a genuine character that was too dimensional, but it gave him the motivation to try and go legit, so to speak. But not because necessarily I felt like, oh yeah, he really loves her. He was like, she's just a part of that package. It's a catalyst to like, he's looking to get out of it.
It's weird because there was no evidence he was looking to get out until he met her. And then there was zero connections. Well, I did team it. It's motivating enough, I guess.
Right. He did a good job trying. I will say it. He did a good job trying.
I would like to applaud him for his effort. He gets a small drink. Yeah. Okay, body count in this movie.
Oh. Well, after watching, it's higher than I remember. It's like brutally high. I can only go by what I found.
Okay. I didn't count all this. Okay. So I'm going by what I...
I mean, it would have been one of the... No, but just for context, before you even say numbers. I mean, just in the... It's actually the last thing I watched in depth.
Yep. It would have been one of America's greatest crime stories of all time. Well, it was. We saw it in LA a year later.
Well, but I mean, yes. Yes, it was a bit. It was actually... Well, it wasn't that intense.
I mean, this was over blocks and multiple vehicles and hundreds of shots fired. I mean, unprecedented. It was a 10 minute scene, right? I mean, it's not...
I saw somewhere that... Take this with the greatest salt, but for each scene, like each take, they would expel up to a thousand rounds per take. Yeah, it's not that. Yeah.
I mean, blanks or whatever, but still. Right. Okay, body count. So I got the body count for the entire film.
Okay. Oh, you've assigned the kill. That's what I found. Oh, wow.
Oh, wow. Impressive. So what's your number for the entire film? Well, more than 250 people I have died in this movie, right?
That's 87. Maybe 256. Okay. Rob.
I go to the side and go down to the 75. That's my favorite. What are you talking about? There's a lot of death.
Alice says what? I said 87. I do like when Vincent's trying to kick out. There's a lot of death.
That's my pox. I would be okay. In the grocery store parking lot. Get down.
And he's just throwing women around. I feel like as he says get down he picks a woman up. Get down, shield. Oh, okay.
What I found, again, I don't know how bad this is. I assume it's on screen kills. Off screen, I don't know. I kind of built you there.
Entire film, 18. What? That's not true. That can't be true.
I found it low too, but. I mean, you got three points. I don't know how we put it first. It's about Shremo, you got probably 20.
Oh no, I mean, I can almost name 18. But how much of it is movie magic, trickery? Well, there's just three or four. How many were killed in the opening scene?
So they've got, right, there's a couple of other things. There are a lot of secondary characters that have a couple kills, one, or whatever, here and there, but let me give you the main characters. Hannah, Pichino, kills two. McCauley kills nine.
Shirley, no, kill him, kills one. Tom Sizemore, Shorito, Shorito, kills four. They've got a total of 18. I know.
They're missing the- Well, Ringgro killed the prostitute first of all. He's on the list. I should say that young, sucks traffic lady that was forced into a terrible situation. That prostitute.
That feels low. That feels low. That feels low. I mean, let's watch the lecenia.
I feel like it's just watching the shootout. It feels like there's a lot more cops that got taken out. So, whatever. There was a parking lot of the- I wasn't going to investigate this.
I'm going to go back to the Meagotchot. Yeah. Did you hear him? Yeah.
You went hm, wwe. I thought I heard it like 17. I heard a shot. Mm, wwe, wwe.
Then he went around the corner like, you know, we went away. To run the car. Well, one of the things I've done as a memorable scene, and I giggled when I saw it, was at the beginning of the street shootout scene, a police officer, one of the main guys I can't remember where I've seen it before, but you'd recognize the actor. Get shot, dies, and he looks, he's posed just like Jamie Gom, after he dies.
And then they got shot by Clarice. Like dude, we will pull it up after this pod, and you will see what I thought about him. Yes, 100%. That's awesome.
10, we're probably just happy to be working again in a normal job. Did he go into a basement? That was 72-high-twir feet. There were a lot of moths.
All right. Box office performance for this. So I got the real figures, not just the year figures, because it came out December, and you only have two weeks worth of whatever. We've done 95 before, so let's just go through it.
Toy Story, number one, 191 million. Batman forever, 184. Apollo 13, and third, Pocahontas, number four. It sounded a dead comment from Batman for Nick.
Well, always record it. Well, you gotta say it now. I just do. It's not someone with Alicia Silverstone in it, right?
Sure, at least so, yeah. She turned, it's a turn of her bottom in. They're gearing up, and they're fucking back. And his comment in the movie theater was Bat Boner.
Bat? Boner? Holy Bat Boner, Bat Man. Ed Cosgrove, ladies and gentlemen.
Me, hep. But every time I hear that movie, I think of that. Look at this. Number five, Ace Ventura, when nature calls.
Oh, geez. Number six, Gold Knight, number seven, Jumanji, number eight, Casper, number nine, seven, with 100 million. Number 10, Die Hard with a Vengeance, 100 million. Heat was number 25, with 67 million.
That's still pretty expensive, I mean. The budget was 60. Yeah. Yeah.
Not a blockbusters. Well, one of the things that I did well, but for 60 million in production, that's crazy. It's throwing the marketing stuff, it lost money, I'm sure. The all of those people?
Well, that's right. That's a cast that probably, oh. At the funeral? Of like character actors.
And you know it, I didn't notice it, I guess, perfectly until someone pointed it out. But no sound stages and no sets in the entire movie. I saw that. It's filmed only in real locations.
So if they were in a restaurant, they actually filmed in that restaurant. And then obviously on the street and out and about LA for a lot of it. So I don't know if that's more expensive or something. I don't know either.
No, because if you're on a sound stage, you're obviously in control of everything. No, it's not. It's not nearly. You've got to pay to shut down the street and do all that stuff.
I mean, they basically took over downtown LA probably two weeks, to film all that. I'll say there's someone way on the outside. You can kind of feel that in this movie. That's not saying it is one of the best characters is his whole vibe, like this whole LA underbelly type thing.
But it couldn't have been cheap. But yeah, that was, I feel like it's, it is strange that Michael Mann kind of had a little bit of success. Like he's never had a massive blockbuster, right? But he clearly, when he was given a little run way.
It's super when he hit Transformers. When he was given a chance, this is the story that he chose. I'm going all in. I want these actors and this much budget.
And I'm going to do everything live action outside. It's insane. Yeah, it's pretty. I don't think that's why the kind we get to later.
But they don't make a lot of movies like this movie at all, ever. No special effects, no stages. Yeah, think about that. No special effects.
Yeah, and all the firing, real craziness. Even the fucking sounds of the guns. Yeah, they had all microphones everywhere to pick up the real sound. This movie sounds, at least that section for sure, doesn't sound like any other movie.
Right. Yeah, right. It's kind of cool. Ron Tamego score, audience or critics, which one of the first?
I think audience will have to be higher, right? I don't know. If you have smart critics like me. Right.
Let's do the critics first then. Is Rob a critic? OK, critics. If top five was a critic.
All right. I'm going to go with 88. Critics are doing it. I'm going 83.
I think I'm going to go lower. Someone nailed it on the head. Oh, oh, indubitably. I think that's never happened in the rotten tomatoes game as it is.
Can you tell? Critics gave it 88. Woo! Impressive.
Let's give snaps. That's it. That's impressive number. I'm never giving a snap.
All right. What was the audience score for Heat? This is thumbs up, thumbs down, audience. Yeah.
Yeah. I'm going to say 88. I was going to say I would be more comfortable going higher for the audience. But 88 seems high again.
For your top five? I know. I know. I know.
87. Oh. So you have the critics or the audience going one step down. I've been shaped by my original burn here.
Audience score of 94. Oh. See? I don't even think we're going to have a round match in that audience.
A lot of white mid-westerners were really still doing this movie. He played to his base. That's all right. All right.
It should be a time. Yes. As we know, this is the first time to rub in that paper against that much. This is the first time De Niro and Pichino win the same scene together.
Yes. That's all. That's it. And apparently that scene sold both of them and Michael Mann for that choosing the movie and choosing to work on it was because of that.
And they were all very excited to film that scene. Are we watching that scene? It's fine. It was better than I.
It was good. I would agree. It does not live up to the hype. I don't think it could.
I don't know how it could be. Right. But I think you could tell both of them were in that scene. But again, going back to the criticism a little bit.
Now that I think about it, it was a little on the nose. Because you could almost... Sure. I think they obviously could have been talking about acting.