Hello, and welcome to another Pivot Northwest Podcast. This is part one of a three-part live podcast series on young adults, the church, and how the church intersects with the queer community. In February of 2020, Pivot Northwest facilitated a panel discussion with members of our community whose lives and work touch this intersection. This is not an authoritative discussion, but instead is meant to help people have better conversations on sensitive topics closely tied to identity and belonging.
We hope you are blessed by this conversation. Hello and welcome to a Pivot Northwest Podcast. We are recording this live. Can we get some applause and some shout-outs?
Let's see if the microphone is picked up. We are recording live at Quest Church in the Ballard area of Seattle, and my name is Martine. My pronouns are he, him, and I want to do a little bit of housekeeping for everyone who's here. First of all, there's some bathrooms right out in the hallway through which you all came, and there's a private bathroom if you need one, which is a point of hospitality that will probably be bringing up later that is a gender-neutral or family bathroom.
There also is a text-to-question situation going on tonight for those of you who are here live. If you're listening this later in the podcast, in the app, or as a streaming service, don't text questions because they will not be answered. We also have some resources. Those will also be on the web where this podcast is going to be broadcast.
So the resources are put together by some folks on this panel, and they are questions and resources to learn more about this subject to educate yourselves to reflect about how your church, how your church is being hospitable or not to 20-something, especially those in the queer community. Now we're going to have our guests, our guest panel introduce themselves, okay? Hello, my name is Kay. I reside in Central Texas.
I come from a Roman Catholic tradition, and I'm very happy to be here in Seattle with all of you. Thank you, Kay. Tina? Hi.
I am Tina Shimmer-Sellers, and do you want more information? I don't know what people out in the world might want to know. Yeah, Tina, you have a long resume. Yeah, so I'm happy to just be Tina.
Why don't you give the folks to your website, and then they can look up a little bit of what you do there. Okay, sure. So I'm Tina Shimmer-Sellers, and I'll just spell it because that's the website. So it's T-I-N-A-S-C-H-E-R-M-E-R-S-E-L-L-E-R-S.com.com.com.
And I'm sure your experience will come out, but your most recent book, that might be helpful. Thanks, Scott, and the Conservative Church, Erasing Shame from Sexual Animacy. So that's a great bullet of what you're already focusing on recently. Yeah.
Okay, thanks, Gapes. My name is Gapes Torres. My pronouns are she, her, they, them, either both are fine. I think I will just say where I'm from, but I grew up in the Philippines, lived in Chicago for a little bit, lived in California for a little bit, and now based here in Seattle.
Thank you. Ellie? I'm Ellie Vergau. I grew up in the Seattle area, also lived in Chicago for a little while, but I'm happy to be back in the Pacific Northwest.
So I serve as a pastor for outreach and worship at a church in the Seattle area, and I'm an artist, and my pronouns are she and her. Thanks, Ellie. And then another voice we'll hear is Lauren. Lauren is watching our questions as they come in.
Say hi, Lauren. They're flowing in right now. Okay. My name is Lauren.
Work with Church Communications at Pivot Northwest. Yes, and we're really happy with her participation in our team to help us communicate with the churches that we work with. A bit about the podcast, if you, this is maybe your first event that you've been to or the first podcast you're listening to, Pivot Northwest. This main concern is why are 20-somethings not in church or why are they, if they are there?
So that's really the foundational concern of tonight. What that means is that we intersect with a lot of issues, and one of those issues is how the church intersects with the queer community. Now a few pieces of order for tonight's conversation, specifically the word queer. So we're using that right now as a shorthand, as an operative shorthand for the LGBTQIA plus communities.
It's a very diverse initialism that has grown and grown, and what we want to do is be able to talk about it, but also not belabor our conversation too much. So we will call out specific, important, when specific communities within that banner need to be treated as special, especially with their particular needs. So that's important, and we'll get more into that later. The other thing to know is that this is a conversation generator.
This is not meant to be authoritative. We'll be talking a lot, the panelists have already asked them to speak out of their experience as they are either ministers or therapists or friends or just people of life experience intersecting with the queer community. So this is supposed to help folks have better conversations. We're not trying to be experts, we're just a slice of life here today.
Let me read a quote, and this I think is a really good grounding quote for tonight's conversation. In this last June, during the Pride Month, New York Times said that more than one third of Americans who are in their teens and early 20s know someone who uses gender neutral pronouns according to a recent survey by Pew Research. This is double the number of those who are in their 40s and triple the number of those who are in their 50s and 60s. So folks in their teens and 20s are more exposed, they are more experienced in what it means to have questions about your gender identity or your sexual orientation, and the church needs to be aware of that.
We need to, as the church, I'm saying we, because I am in the church and working for the betterment of the church, we need to be able to respond to that pastorally. And I see a lot of knots. So I'm happy that we're all on the same page with that. The last thing is, of course, I already mentioned this, that 20-somethings is really where a heart is.
And that's because they are often the most marginalized in the church, they have the smallest voice, they have the least amount of representation on the boards outside of youth that are not yet adults. So that's another piece of this information, sorry, of this context. And the last part is that we have this resource list. So we hope that these resources in this list are used for good interrogation of what your churches are doing locally.
So we hope that that is a blessing. All right, I'm going to ask a question, and then I want to hand it over to the panelists to discuss. The first question is that 20-somethings, what are issues that are universally present for 20-somethings, but that are especially difficult for folks in the queer community? In other words, what are things that are especially hard for trans, non-binary, gay, and bisexual folks, and they could be things that were easier in the past and have gotten more difficult, or things that have always been hard, but those difficulties have been nuanced differently as our society has changed in its values.
Now this is going to intersect with intergenerational things, but let's try to start with 20-somethings and then talk about how those issues may or may not be intergenerational in our churches and outside of our churches. I'd like to start. Jump in. So what things are universal for 20-somethings in the United States?
Chances are they were very young when the Columbine High School shooting happened. So school shootings have been something they've only ever known. They don't recall a time before that. They have always had the internet.
They have always had cell phones. They've had smartphones for the majority of their lives. They have always known a time of climate change being part of the conversation. And after we get to these universal things of this world that they're inheriting, where some things are very painful and some things are much more accessible, after that the similarities begin to break down, 20-somethings still deal with racial injustices.
They still deal with misogyny. They still deal with homophobia and so on. So within the context of 20-somethings who are queer in the church community, a young 20-somethings year old who is white and cisgender will face something very different from someone who's a person of color, from someone who is transgender, from someone who is differently abled, from someone with autism. So I think it's a little difficult to talk about universality outside of climate, gun violence, and these little machines that have the whole world in them that everybody has in their pockets.
And when it comes to queerness, they've always known a world in which same-sex marriage rights are normal. It's not a debate anymore. So when they encounter churches, especially church leaders who are still talking about marriage equality, it sounds outdated. They're much more conscious of what does gender mean.
Is there gender anymore? Those of us who are a little familiar with third wave feminism of the 90s might recall they were saying there are different kinds of femininity and different kinds of masculinity. For people who are in their 20s, these concepts don't really mean anything anymore. And when you come up against complementarity, that's a totally different conversation.
I think a lot of 20-somethings, especially those who were not searched in complementarianism, either don't understand or don't want to be a part of that conversation anymore. Thank you, Kay. You could see why we flew her in from Texas. It came out swinging.
It came out swinging. Love it. What other thoughts do you all have? That even got me thinking of a whole lot of things.
Yeah. Thank you. The whole machine thing and the algorithm that we have today and just how we are very overly stimulated by the pixelated content that we have. I can't help but think about the comparison game that we internally have.
I know that as a 20-something, I'm 27 years old, I can't help but think about the many lives out there that are living more mature than I am, that are more stable than I am, and can't help but have the I am not enough voice in me. And as a psychotherapist in training, I can't help but hear that in my own clientele, whether that may be directly or implicitly in their language, and the reason why they're coming into therapy in the first place, because they already see like, they're comparing themselves with what they see on television and on social media especially. And with the growing presence, or the growing, I guess with social media, I feel like there's a lot of impoverished friendships that I see right now, just because we're texting and just because we're communicating with each other through Instagram is kind of like a check in the box that I've connected with someone. And I've always, I grew up in the Philippines and we didn't have what growing up, I didn't have a lot of technology.
Technology that's from the West is something that we revere a lot and wanted a lot. So I always thought that I grew up in a different era when I moved out here, because I, I mean, I do hold my phone a good amount, but not as obsessively so, and I have a lot of compassion over the folks, maybe particularly my clients who suffer a great deal of depression because of the lack of face-to-face interactions. And I am a firm believer that that is the culprit of the impoverished friendships are the culprit of a lot of people's despair and sadness, and it's sad because we're looking into symptoms more. And I know that we're entering into a time where we value narrative, where we value context, but I feel like we are suffering the consequences from a time that didn't.
I'm also thinking about, I come from a collectivist culture too, and we value a lot of the wisdom of our elders, and I've noticed this okay boomer culture that's happening in social media, and while I can understand the debate and the divide, I feel like there's an immediate polarization that takes place with generations, with the generations or generations before me. I think this is more specific to my own community and my own context here in Seattle where there's this label around being liberal, and I appreciate the energy and I appreciate the activism, but I can't help but wonder are we villainizing or overgeneralizing and polarizing certain folks and not really tending to the complexity of each person, each community. And so I feel like we're missing out on a lot of the wisdom that comes from generations before us. And I can't understand that there is a need to challenge the rigidity and the binary language of generations before us, but not to the extent where they're exiled and excluded from the conversation.
Can I ask you something? Yes. I think it was a Time Magazine article about how millennials are destroying industries and they're not spending money, and at the economy collapse, it's their fault, and they're so lazy blah blah. So that happened when millennials were recovering from the recession, and now Gen Z was labeled Gen Z when they were in high school.
Do you think that maybe this very new trend of labeling and stereotyping generations might have been a start to that polarization? The labeling? Yes. Oh, labeling.
Whenever I think about labeling, I can't help but think of an underlying attempt to categorize and therefore objectify and therefore dehumanize. Yes. It's likely because our attention spans are, we want a microwavable solution, and so our ability to categorize is like an easier route to making an assumption about the generation. And I feel like as a millennial, and I feel this defensive response that no, y'all are destroying it or y'all are ruining it, so it's like we're missing each other in that process.
Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. That was awesome.
One of the, I don't know if you were in Indianapolis at Lilly. It's okay, we're related to, is related to the work here in the Northwest because she's working with some folks in Texas doing the same work. At one point, there was, it might have been when you weren't there yet, I don't know, but there was a consultant that came in and this person had done a review of the Time Life magazine covers back decades and every 10 or so years, there's a issue that's almost the exact same formula that talks about the 20-something generation being what, you know, objectified and saying, oh, you're the lazy one. So the boomers got that treatment, Gen X got that treatment, Gen Y is getting that treatment, Gen Z is getting that treatment.
And so there's a cyclical nature to it and it points, I think the church looks at that and says, oh, this obviously points to a greater sin, you know, that's what we will call it, you know, that's a communal situation where we're not addressing our need to objectify or our need to relate ourselves differently to the new generation. And so that's really been interesting for our work because we're like, okay, there's something about the 20s that's threatening to the church and to the older generations. What is that? Yeah, 20-something must be really powerful for so many people to hate them.
Exactly, right? Really powerful, yes, in quotes. Right, right, right. Well, and it's that pushing, pushing the change, right?
They're asking people to wake up, wake up, pay attention. Just change that needs to happen and the older generations have always said, I don't like the rock and roll, right? They've always been saying in one way or another, I don't like your music, right? Right?
It's been always that way. You know, I think about, so I have kids in the late 20s and early 30s and I just so appreciate how they push the change, right? But I also feel deeply compassionate as I think about the queer community in particular and my daughter identifies as queer. It feels like there is so much around, you know, you're trying to find your identity, sort of who am I and all of that, and there's a pressure to get that all figured out while there is so many options on the table and then so much pressure in a time when everything is so full of inexpensive and it's like there's so much.
And then if you're queer on top of it, it's like trying to find where are my people, how do I identify? We're all kind of messy and not messy in a negative way, but like there's just a lot of variety, right? At least that's what we talk about. And that's all fine, but it's also kind of hard and confusing.
And that's the place where it's both the upside and the downside of not having a box, do you know? And it's that sometimes I just want a little place to land and then oftentimes I don't want a little place to land. It's that there's just so much vastness sometimes and it feels really uncomfortable. I think we're going to come back to this.
I want to move on to another question. But let's hold that thought. Oh, did you want to? At least it has to be.
Oh, Ellie, we're going to force you to speak. Well, I had some thoughts about all of this, but all of you said it so beautifully. There is nothing else that I could add to make that better. That was incredible.
We're going to call you to speak in the next one then. On the other side of the coin, and maybe this is one that you can speak to, queer 20-something things, sharing their coming out stories can be viewed as strong examples of leadership in the area of discernment, meditation, and transformation. This is a conversation that Kay and I were having earlier this week and we thought, oh, this would be a good thing to riff off of. What other ways beyond that, or maybe we can talk more about that, might the queer community and body leadership in and around the church?
One of the things that relates to what you're saying, Tina, is that 20-something's are often looking for Fuller actually did a really good job, Fuller seminary, their crew who's doing this, writing identity, belonging, and purpose, those are the three words that they use, that 20-something's are often looking to establish, and so in this notes that I have before you, the panelists, meaning mentorship and challenge is the way I kind of phrase those, but that could be in the church or not, and it can force 20-something's to adopt an intergenerational relationship if they're looking for a box and they're asking an older mentor, what box should I put my life in? And that could be a mentor who's queer or not. It could also be relating to one's peers and saying, which boxes should I avoid? Which boxes are you choosing?
What boxes are you avoiding? So let's just stop there. What do you all think are blessings that maybe the church is not recognizing? Or spaces that are in the community or within the church that the queer community is bringing?
There are so many that I think it's hard to even begin to know where to begin. I think queer Christians are exactly what the church needs right now in so many ways. I think one of those ways is that the church in general, and maybe I'll talk from my own perspective as a maybe the white evangelical church especially, cannot talk about bodies, about embodiment and sexuality, and I think that is hurting everyone, and I think that comes from a heresy way back in the day called Gnosticism, which we decided wasn't real but we still live by it. So which says that the body is bad and our spirit is good.
And that's not real. Like both are good. And so I think queer Christians by nature of their identity may be more necessarily, I think we all need to talk about it, but are talking about it more often and more in the open saying we have to talk about bodies, we have to talk about sexuality. It's necessary.
It's so necessary and it's necessary for all of us. And I think that blessing that, I mean that's been a blessing in my life. I feel like I grew up in purity culture and I know Tina can talk much more about that. But I grew up in that and I feel like breaking free of that, even as a straight woman, I feel like I go to my queer friends because they know what it looks like, like they know what it looks like to say no, what the church says is not right.
And so how do we, the church, I mean there's many who are saying it well, but what the church has said many times is not right. So how do you break free from that? How do you know that like the church is not always going to love everything that you do or say, how do you break free from that and be a more liberated and whole person? And I think by nature of that identity and being pushed to the edges, by so many churches I think that brings you to a place of being a prophet.
And so I think a lot of queer Christians in our communities are prophets that are showing us what isn't working and what needs to be better and are painting a picture of what it could be. And it's the most beautiful picture ever. So I hope that we jump on board and listen. If I were Steve Harvey, I would be like, give me bodies, you know, service says bodies.
It would be like my number one or two I think on this list. My whole heart is singing with everything that you said because I think that is so true. And along with that, they are telling us what it is to be othered when you separate spirituality and sexuality and what that does to the human heart and the human spirit and the human relationship and that God never intended that. And in fact, God wants to most show up at the center of our sexuality and spirituality.
And the fact that we have messed that up for over 2,000 years is a place where we have not known God and that our queer people have known that and that we have asked them, we have heard them in that place and they have felt that they've had to leave in order to be most authentic in that place. They have so much to tell us, so much to tell us and to tell us about the way that othering has hurt them. We have to listen about that because that is a trauma. So there is so much that's there and we need to shut up and we need to listen and we need to be shaped by that.
Please do. Ad away. I think too that when someone is oppressed and pushed to the edges, they even more uniquely show us Christ because Christ was also pushed to the edges and othered and I think that perspective, but understanding of Jesus is something that especially the white American church in, I think we have gotten so sick with power and with power used poorly because power can't be used well. We have gotten sick with these things that queer Christians can teach us how to come back to Jesus I think, how to be free, how to understand that that's where Jesus is on the edges is with those who are oppressed and I think churches aren't doing that right now.
All right. The question was what other ways might the queer community embody leadership? I have two answers for that. I'm going to start with the larger, more national example and then I'll move into something much more Seattle specific.
So I've been a professional queer for 15 years. Thank you. Yes, you're welcome. You're welcome.
Professional. I like that. So I read everything I could. I watched everything I could.
I got fully involved. This was in Milwaukee and Stonewall and Marshall P. Johnson were not really talked about that much. If they were mentioned, it was usually among a list of other people and other events that had happened.
It wasn't a big deal. You couldn't buy a t-shirt with Marshall P. Johnson's face on it. Now especially for queer people in their 20s, everybody knows about Stonewall and everybody knows about Marshall P.
Johnson. You go on Etsy and you put in Marshall P. Johnson, you can buy everything. Everybody knows who she is.
If you're listening to this and you don't know who she is, Google it, please. So Martin, you talked about identity belonging and purpose. I mean, that's Stonewall. That's Marshall P.
So 20-somethings have gathered these two cultural points in a way that no generation had before. And they're seeing it as an opportunity for leadership and community. Now from something more specific, if you want to talk about queer community leadership, drag. That's drag.
Lots of clapping. Yes. I do want to clarify, RuPaul's Drag Race is not representative of drag for everybody everywhere. Drag is very regional.
It's very community oriented. So I first learned about drag through the Milltown and Madtown Kings. These are drag kings. And just to clarify, when you're talking about someone as their drag persona, you use the pronoun of their drag persona.
So if I say he, I'm talking about the drag king persona. And these communities, they did incredible work. They would raise money to help people pay for medical bills, to pay for tuition. One of the Milltown Kings, he was studying how to be an ASL interpreter and then he became a professor who taught in ASL.
And that happened largely because of Milltown Kings. And they always connected with other organizations in Milwaukee. And then at my college, we started the annual drag show. And this is at a Catholic school.
And it's still going. I do want to clarify, I went to a transgender feminism's book talk this past summer. And the people in this community, we started talking about drag. And they were saying they were having a lot of very negative experiences that the drag performers they knew were very transphobic and they felt very excluded.
And this one other person spoke up and said, that's not my experience at all. I've always known drag to be very community oriented and we're always helping people who really need it. And I said, where are you from? And this person said, I was Mr.
Drag Wisconsin 2008. And I'm like, oh, yes, we all know the same people. This is great. I did some research about drag in Seattle.
And I saw that up until June of last year, Drag Queen's story hour had been happening at the King County Library System. And if you want to talk about involvement in community and leadership, Drag Queen's, the makeup, the hair, the shoes, that's dedication. And they go to public libraries, like major community hubs. And this past June, there was a large protest and then a large counter protest.
So if churches want to be involved with queer community leadership, Drag, and I do want to name state our heart, he was Mr. Neighbor Seattle, 2011 through 2013, the only drag persona to do that. So they are here. And I really hope that churches will reach out to whatever local drag community they have.
Thank you, Kay. Kay brings a fresh set of eyes to Seattle. And it was really nice for her to say, stop hitting your city so much. You guys are pretty great.
So that's a nice word. I was feeling really tender and soft earlier because as somebody who identifies as part of the queer community, I'm pansexual. The way that y'all talked about community, I was like, oh, it's hard for me to answer this question because it requires me to put words into the things that a lot of the people in my community are already doing. And it's like the very things that are, and I'm not saying that I'm still a growing leader, I'm hoping to be.
But it would require me actually inspecting and examining what we're already doing. Yeah, deconstructing it to look at it from foreign eyes. Yeah. Yeah.
And particularly with my clientele majority of which are part of the queer community of actually, I think, yeah, 90% of them are part of the queer community and who are also part of another marginalized group, majority of which are also BIPOC, Black, Indigenous people of color folk. One of the things that I really value in who we are is how much we know when somebody is pushed to the margins and who is getting bullied. And you talked a little bit about this earlier where we know what it's like to be othered and to be a stranger. And so the moment that we see somebody else experiencing that same experience, we know when to show up and we know when to content and intervene.
I was reading this, well, there's this book that I read years ago. It talks a lot about the, and I don't agree fully with this book because it's very Christian, but it talks about the spiritual question for each generation. It said that the boomers ask the question what is true because it's like the modern era. The experts ask what is real because a lot of the scientific sensibilities have failed them due to wars and a lot of disillusionment in that.
The millennials ask the question what is good. And Tina says this earlier where we have like a variety of options. And so we ask ourselves what is fitting to us or what is good for us based on the vastness of options that we have. And the next generation which I believe that the millennials have really informed this question for the next generation is that they're asking what is beautiful and what is just.
And I feel like the queer community is already asking that question because of our inclination to beauty, to transcendence, to exposing the bully and going after the bullied. And there are so many movements that focus just on the bully or just on the bullied, but I feel like the queer community knows how to pay attention to both. So what are the prophetic set of words, inclination to beauty and transcendence? That's the sort of thing I hear from my pastor friends.
They wish they had in their church. So we're talking about being prophetic earlier from the margins. And I think that what you just said is perfectly embodies how the church could be jealous. I mind an example of one of my theological playthings that I like to bat around.
Like a cat is a new definition of family. And for me, like I think about what sort of pastoral practice, every pastor has their sermon that they preach over and over again. And I think about what my sort of sermon would be if I preached it over and over again or what my pastor practice would be based around it. I really like the idea of the renewed or redefined family.
I feel like it creates a lot of good energy in a church for people to care for one another. And the other things that one family has done right is really beautiful. And I was thinking about the free mom hugs and the free pastor hugs which is Jen Hatmaker's version of the free mom hugs which is Sarah Cunningham's thing and how it redefines family. I was mentioning it to Elle because I got this shirt for dad hugs that I'm planning on wearing for pride this year.
And she was, can you tell a little bit about your experience doing that? Because I feel like I was like, oh, it's great that we have a local example of that. We don't have to look to Austin or other places, but give us a taste of what that was like. So this last year, our church denomination that our church is a part of made some decisions that were very specifically against queer people.
And it was our annual meeting which was over pride weekend. And this meeting was in a different city and I had chosen not to go because I didn't want to. So instead of going, a whole bunch of us in the Seattle area, some people from my church, a few others, people who are part of our denomination and a couple others who are not came together and we decided, okay, well, let's go to pride. And then someone I knew said, what if we, like, I think actually this came from a friend of mine in Longview, Washington.
And I don't exactly know where she got it from, but her and her husband, their pastors in Longview. And they went to pride and they decided to give blessings to everyone. And so they wore their stoles and a shirt that said, this pastor loves you and took oil and put glitter inside of it as well. Because it's just a beautiful day, pride as well.
That's a great detail. Yes. And so then they would, you know, put their, they'd be like, have a sign that says, does anyone want a blessing? And then people would come up and be like, you know, I don't know if I want a blessing, but I'll take a hug or really you'd give me a blessing, like churches are not exactly known for being great queer people.
So this was really beautiful in Longview. So a bunch of us here, we were like, let's do that. So we wore our stoles and we wore our, this pastor loves you shirt and we had our little, like, our sign and being able to bless people. It was one of the most moving experiences of my life, like being able to, and then having people come and want to pray with us or talk through things or just be like, I don't know, it felt like, I don't know, I couldn't believe that we were able to be there.
Like it felt like grace that this group of people who had been oppressed by people like me would allow us to come into their space and show care and yeah, and then all of my stuff still has glitter all over it and probably will forever, but blessings all over it. It has blessings all over it. Yeah. Yeah, it was a delight.
Thank you for sharing that. She shared that with me at the beginning before we started recording. And I was just like, oh, that captures exactly what my, what my picture of what that could look like. It actually exceeds.
You should come next year. Let's do it again. Great. We're doing it at Seattle Center at the end of the parade.
We were like in the middle, kind of like right, right up by the barricades, so that when people were going by in the parade, like come and get a lot of people on it. We're walking it. Yeah. Awesome.
Yeah. That's so cool. Our denomination, yeah, I'm working on getting our church to walk in at one of these years. So we have a thing called thank god for sex.org.
Yeah. And so we will come by. When I think of other parades that happen in Seattle and I think about what they're celebrating and I think about how the church would show up in those, I just can't, I can't even conjure with them that they would be powerful at all. But then I think about what if every block or two, there was another group of pastors just there giving, you know, like you could end the parade with like 20 or 30 crosses on your head at a glitter.
I mean, I think of the Ash Wednesday and how people to show up with these Ash crosses. And it's like, that's like taking that to a whole new level of like the church being out in the world. I mean, my mind's blown right now. I'm kind of just verbally processing it in front of you all.
But yeah, what an amazing idea. Thank you. It is. It is awesome.
Yeah. Thank you for listening to this pivot Northwest podcast. We hope it was encouraging, inspiring and helpful. Please do all the things that help others to know about our work, such as liking, subscribing, reviewing, rating.
But mostly, we hope that you will share this with other young adults and young adult leaders so that they can feel encouraged and inspired in their faith and participation in the church. God bless.