Welcome to Working History, a podcast produced for the Southern Labor Studies Association. Become a member online at www.southernlaborstudies.org. I'm series host Beth Englichen, today I'm speaking with Jody Allen, Assistant Professor of History and Director of the Lemon Project, a journey of reconciliation at the College of William and Mary. Today we're discussing her work with the Lemon Project and William and Mary's slave holding past.
Jody Allen, welcome to Working History. Thank you very much for having me. My pleasure. Could you start us off by introducing us to Lemon, who is the name sake of the Lemon Project?
Sure. Lemon was a man who was enslaved by William and Mary at the late 18th, early 19th century. He died 1817. So we don't know a whole lot about him, but when it was time to name the project, he chose him because we knew the most about him.
We know that he sometimes reproduced and sold it to the college. We know that at one point he and some others were actually granted an 1808, a Christmas bonus, they called it. In 1815, they gave him an allowance to purchase his own food. In 1816, they paid for his medicine, and in 1817, they paid for his coffin.
Okay. But he certainly represents all of the enslaved and the unnamed that we're trying to understand that William and Mary. Right. So we're going to be talking a bit about that for the remainder of our time.
Why don't we start off by thinking about, or maybe you could sort of fill us in on how is it that the project started? When we talk about the history of the College of William and Mary, we're talking about the entire expanse of the nation's history from the colonial period to the present, from 300 years. The college is often referred to as the alma mater of the nation because of the alumni and others with connections with the College of Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and so forth. But the history of the school in some ways has really only partially been told.
So could you, again, walk us through sort of what the initial genesis of an impetus was for the Lemon Project. And then as part of that, I'm curious to know, did you do you get any pushback against this work when you are talking about a really part and parcel of writing or creating a much more inclusive and honest history of the college? Sure. Okay.
Well, this started in 2007, the state of Virginia passed a resolution acknowledging its role in slavery. And that same year, the, and that was actually 400 years since the landing at Jamestown. And so that same year, a student, a William and Mary undergrad, who was also a student senator on the Student Assembly or the Student Government. And she had taken some classes that kind of perked up her interests in this question.
And so she, as she came to learn that William and Mary had owned slaves, she brought a, with some others, brought a resolution to the, the student assembly asking the college to study, fully study its history with slavery, make that history public, and then build a memorial to the enslaved. And so that, she was, they were able to get that pass at the end, or the beginning of 2008. And then the following year, the faculty passed a similar resolution saying basically it's time for us to look at this part of our history. And so it was kind of like, this, the timing was perfect.
The president at the time was very open to it, and the Provost was also, and so he brought in an outside faculty member, Bob Ings from, at that time, he was teaching at the University of Pennsylvania. He was here at the way of Mary going to semester. And he taught a class, but he also worked with graduate students to do research, to just find out what was in the, in the record. Was there anything that was already, they have already been written about slavery at William and Mary?
And at that time, Jennifer Oast, who was a doctor candidate, was working on her dissertation on institutional slavery. And William and Mary was one of the, one of the locations she was studying. And so she had come across the list, in the burser's office records, a list of the names of enslaved people. And Lemon's name was on that list, along with others.
And so, so Bob, at the end of that semester, and at the end of their research, wrote a, wrote a report to the Board of Visitors, and the Board of Visitors took that report and made a resolution that was passed in 2009 that caught, that acknowledged that William and Mary had been a slaveholder. But also acknowledging that William and Mary had done nothing to challenge the, the tenets of Jim Crow. And, and established the Lemon Project. And at that time, it was supposed to be mainly a long-term research project.
But one of the, one of the other things that the resolution acknowledged was that William and Mary needed to do more to build a bridge between the campus and the African-American community in the greater Williamsburg area. And so, one of the first decisions we made was that we could not go into the archives for eight years and come out with, hey, look what we found. And, you know, we needed, because we were told, literally told when the minute was in the, at the symposium where the project was announced, we had one community member stand up and say, okay, William and Mary, we're watching you. And so, we needed to do, we needed to begin our community engagement work at the same time we were doing the archival work.
And we needed to, you know, get, you know, talk about what we were doing, why we were doing it as we were doing it. So that's, that's kind of how we, you know, we got, we got started. You know, so it was a student, you know, I'd like to really, you know, put forth that it was students. And the, but the administration certainly was ready to join in, so to speak.
And just, the project. And in terms of pushback, there was some pushback definitely early on. And a lot of that, though, came, and you know, the wonders of the internet have allowed for, you know, this anonymous, you know, feedback to, to articles or what have you. So a lot of the pushback came in response to articles that were written at that time.
And almost every time, you know, if something comes out, we get a mix of responses. But honestly, I, I stopped reading those. Right. Smart idea.
And so it's, the feedback has been really pretty good. You know, I know some campuses have gotten, you know, when they're trying to do this work, have gotten very negative feedback from their alums and active, you know, negative feedback, that's right. And so so far, you know, we've been going for about 10 years now, and we haven't gotten a lot of major pushback. I actually thought we might get some when it was announced that the memorial would be located somewhere on the door at campus, because, you know, that's considered by some people almost holy ground.
Right. But we really haven't gotten that feedback. Most people, all along, have been saying, really, that's where it needs to be, you know, because that's where they lived and work. That's really great.
And it seems like William & Mary was one of the first colleges through universities to really begin grappling with this seriously. Is that right? It seems to me, and again, you know, that's a lot of my bias, but, you know, that really the, you know, the college has kind of been on the forefront, you know, leading a lot of these conversations. And especially the approach that conversation doesn't just end when slavery ends.
It's a much longer term, you know, through the Jim Crow period and into today, you know, long term ramifications of that. No, actually, we are among the first, you know, of course, Brown got the ball rolling, you know, and their report came out, I think, in 2005. But, yeah, we are, you know, other schools that we're doing, I think there were different, you know, faculty that were doing research and that type of thing. But in terms of having, you know, the resolution that was passed and the actual funding put behind it, you know, I'm always hesitant to say, but I think we would probably be second after Brown, but I think that there were other things, other schools that were, like I said, faculty are students doing research, but in terms of this level of commitment on the part of the institution, I think we're definitely among the first.
Right. So let's talk a little bit more in detail about the college's ties to slavery and slave holding. William and Mary was a direct participant in the slave holding system. And what did that mean compared to other colleges and universities like Brown, for instance, that had more indirect ties to slavery?
And, you know, what are we talking about when we think about the colleges that had these direct ties versus indirect ties? Well, you know, as you say, William and Mary's ties are quite intimate with slavery. I mean, the charter that was granted by King William and Queen Mary calls for the proceeds from a cell of tobacco to provide for the institution. And we know, you know, who was generally growing the tobacco on their plantations at the time.
And know that James Blair, who was the first and president for life, he was the minister who traveled to England to approach the king and the queen, he was a slave holder. So I mean, we know that enslaved people were working with the contractors to build the initial building. What was at that time called the college building is now known as the RIM building. The college in 1708 was given a man named Christ.
We know that in 1718, the college purchased, and we think that this may be the largest one time purchase 17 people along with land. And those people worked that land. It became not a way quarter. And it was a tobacco plantation.
And it was to provide again for the upkeep of the college, but also for scholarships, how they would refer to less wealthy white males. So from, you know, from day one, there were enslaved people there and their labor provided funding. Also, you know, they were the people who were growing the food. So, you know, their labor provided the food.
They provided the meals, the wood for the room, water for the students. They cleaned the rooms, a stable upkeep. They did. I mean, they were the people responsible for building and maintaining the college.
So they were very intricately involved. Now, of course, of course, after the revolution, the college speaking, of course, because England was cut off. So there weren't as many enslaved people, although we don't have an exact number of how many there were before the revolution. You know, that number was greatly reduced after the revolution.
And in the school started hiring out some of the enslaved people and also hired it hired in some people. The other thing in 1777, there's a record that indicates that by that point, there were about 30 enslaved people at Nautawake Quarter. And they sold most of those people in 1777 and five or six of them were brought to campus. But most of them were sold again on the eve of the revolution.
Okay. And did students bring personal slaves with them to campus as well as, you know, sort of how the college were saying enslaved individuals? Yes, there were some who did, they could pay, I believe it was eight pounds to, because they had to pay a fee. But there were some, and we, we don't, it's hard again to know exactly how many we found.
One place in the record, when we know two brought, but you know, the unfortunate thing is, as you say, as an alum, you know, the red building burned three times. So a lot. Go the records, right? So we are piecing together the story.
But so we know there were probably more that brought them, but we know that that, you know, that there was provision for that. Okay. To do that. Yes.
And do we have any estimates, or do you have any estimates, I should say, about how much financially speaking, during this pre pre Civil War period, the college benefited from this work of enslaved men and women? We don't have a number that is. Our report just came out about a month or so ago formally. And one of that's one of our next big projects is I'm going to try to work with someone in the School of Business, you know, someone who knows how to do that math, you know, and translate 18th and 19th century financial figures into 20th century, so we can get a better handle.
So that's one of the next big things we're looking at. But again, we know that they they provide, they were to provide financial aid. I'm hoping that we'll be able to at least figure out some of those people who received financial aid in that way. But we know, again, it's that they work there throughout, you know, so they know that the college benefit, we just have to figure out what that number might look like.
Do you have anything you could share with us in terms of how the debates about slavery that sees the country at various points in time, especially in the lead up to the Civil War played out or had any kind of particular residence at the college, or, you know, was it more that the college was sort of in its little bubble? And those kinds of larger national debates didn't have any particular residence. Right. No, actually, William and Mary was among the leaders of pro-slavery thought.
Okay. Now, there were periods where people who may have had some question about slavery. Generally, though, they did not sell their slaves. But we know Thomas, Thomas, who was a, he grew up part of a wealthy slave holding family in the Tidewater area.
He attended William and Mary as an undergrad and he got a master's degree at William and Mary. He left for a while and traveled to Europe, I guess, to round out his education and for health reasons. But he came back to William and Mary. He was hired in 1826.
As a history professor. And so he was there, he was back in Virginia at the time of Nat Turner's rebellion. Okay. And so Virginia, the Virginia General Assembly debated for 13 days in January 1832 following the insurrection that previous August.
And because people were afraid, you know, Nat Turner, it wasn't just, it wasn't a Florida rebellion. You know, he killed people, you know, and they, you know, so people all over the south, but in particular in Virginia were really afraid of what was going to happen. You know, they had this population of people living amongst them. And, you know, they, well, I think for a long time, they were able to convince themselves that they were happy, but they, you know, they knew I think all along, they weren't happy.
And certainly this rebellion, you know, was a great indication of their unhappiness. And so they debated for 13 days about what to do about slavery in Virginia. And what they came up with was that there was, they had this, you know, sick with a status quo, because if they freed them, they had to pay property owners. And so that was one, that was going to be one cost.
And then they felt that they could not live that blacks and whites could not live together. So then they would have to pay to relocate them somewhere. And so it just was not financially feasible for the state plus they were needed, you know, that that labor was needed. There were people in the western part of the state where slavery wasn't as great a stronghold.
They were much more interested in ending slavery than folks in the eastern region or whatever. And so anyway, Abid, do follow up the debates, which were very public in terms of the newspaper and all of that. And so he wrote a response to the debates and he outlined in his response why slavery was the greater good for all involved. And Slate people needed the structure of the institution that they were ever going to become civilized.
And he explained, he gave biblical support for slavery saying that one, slavery had existed in every civilist, throughout civilization, every great civilization had begun with slavery. Also that there was no reason for Christians to fear God's wrath because they were indeed doing what not wanted them to do by holding new slaves. And then he also blamed, he said, well, besides God won't hold it against you because the English brought slavery here and now we have to live with it. We have to make the best of a bad situation.
And so and because of that, we can't get rid of them. God understands that we're good. And so basically what he did was he gave more intellectual support for the decision they had already made. So he and William & Mary become the leaders among this pro-slavery ideology.
He became the president in 1836 and he died in 1846. But Daniel Beverly Tucker was another William & Mary professor who was a pro-slavery ideologue. And they were certainly throughout the South. Folks and so there were students, we've come across some student, one in particular student diary where he is also talking about, he's pro-slavery and he's talking about that.
So William & Mary was among the leaders in terms of this idea of slavery being a positive good. Right. Sort of rationalizing the system in a bigger conversation. So let's fast forward a little bit to post-Civil War.
And as you mentioned, the college was really in many ways complicit in the maintenance and perpetuation of Jim Crow in the South or at least in the Williams burg area. So could you talk just a little bit about the college in Jim Crow, what the relationship was between the college and African Americans in Williamsburg and the wider, tied water region in this era? Yeah. There's some interesting stories about blacks with shortly after the school opens back up.
But they were always in a service position. They were either the bell ringers or the janitors or they worked in the dining halls. There was no, there's what we have found, no indication that blacks at William & Mary after the Civil War were seen very differently than they were seen before the war, except that they were free, was certainly that was accepted. But in terms of, again, what their roles were, they really didn't change a whole lot at all.
One of the interesting things that we've come across as we've done some oral histories and talked to individuals, who worked at William & Mary at one point or who just our long time Williamsburg residents, they there's definitely a feeling of not being welcome on the campus. And there are efforts several people have said that they were not welcome on campus unless they were pushing a broom. And there is a, not having grown up in Williamsburg, I had never, it had never focused on me, that there was a literal wall around the old campus. And I guess I just thought of it as part of the decoration, but people who lived there and experienced Jim Crow there see that as a real boundary, that they were not welcome beyond that wall.
And so there's also, I still hear stories about God and some God and counselors today saying to black students, well, William & Mary is a good school, but I'm not sure you'll be comfortable there. And so I know when I was accepted in 1995, because I grew up in Hampton, so I was 30 minutes away. And of course, as parents do, my parents told everybody. And the constant, the consistent message that people sent me was tell Jodi, congratulations, or tell her to be careful.
And that was like 95. Right. And that sort of leads into my next question. Then what have the ripple effects of this been into the present?
I mean, 95 was not so long ago. And so how, what are the ripple effects and then, you know, how is the lemon project grappling with this piece of the college's past as well as its past history? Well, because we're dealing with basically a cultural memory, a strong cultural memory that has passed down, because nothing happened to me. And to my knowledge, anybody in my family directly related to William & Mary.
So these are stories that were passed down that people knew or heard or experienced themselves. And so that's one of the things we're trying to address. So right away, you know, we went into, we started going into the community for events. And there's the former African-American school there, the Bruton Heights School, which is now owned by Colon & Williamsburg, but you can still reserve, or at least a few years ago, you could still reserve space for meetings or events.
And so our first three, we decided that we needed to have a symposium every year. The talk of the share publicly, what we were finding, but also to set up panels, discussions, to get feedback in this type of thing. And so we started that first, the first three symposia were in the Bruton Heights School, because that was very key to the Black community. It was where the Rockefeller's helped to build the building.
And it was at the time, it was state of the art, it was where, not only were they educated, it was where during World War II, the USO was held there, they held the movies in the community, because they could not go to the movies on to the Gloucester Street, to the movie theater. That's where their parties were held. So it was very, and when they were, it was being considered that they would be torn down and a parking lot would be built, the Black community in Williamsburg came together and basically saved it. And so that's it's central to the community.
So we went there, and we kept going there until we outgrew it. And then we came on campus, but I'm really happy to say that the community followed us to campus. And so, but we working, we've had events in some of the churches, their community members on our advisory team, our advisory board rather. So that's a key part of what we do.
I think it's as important as whatever we find and whatever we're doing in the archive, is that we communicate to people by our actions that William & Mary is sincere about what it's doing. It understands, it has a lot to overcome, and in terms of the feeling of the community, but that's really a major part of our focus is our community engagement piece. And so that's how we're working with trying to overcome this 326 year history. And it's not going to happen overnight.
I mean, there's still, I think they're, like I said, we still have probably our largest constituency at our campus events. It's made up of people in the community. They come to campus, but we're still, but there's still people who feel we could do more. And then we are constantly working to do more.
I will say that for several years, I was the only full-time person and there were two graduate students. And now we have, there's a full-time administrative, this is our first year of a post, we have a postdoc and we have two graduate assistants. And so, which is, which is also will enable us to reach further and maybe do more. But when we're invited, we go to community organizations and we talk about the project and William & Mary's history and what we're trying to, we've had community folks who, you know, William & Mary has a great retirement community.
And so, we have one of our reports that's on our website was a woman who came, who was a retired professor from Columbia Teachers College. She came to a symposium, got very interested and asked how what she could do. At the around the same time, you know, I was doing these oral histories and coming across some really interesting stories that I wanted to look further into. So, she did that, you know.
So, you know, so in that, and so we, we're using, we're trying to use all of our resources because again, not only do we want to know as much as we can, we also want to, because you should not live, you know, in a college town and not feel like you can benefit from that proximity and all of the college has to offer. And so, that's something you're working constantly on. So, just before we wrapped up shifting gears just a tiny bit, are there any projects that you, Jodi Allen-Scholar are working on that we might want to keep our eye out for? I, well, I had an article that came out last summer about Thomas Doo and Pro Slavery Thought.
And one of the things that I came across in this diary he kept when he was in going through Europe was this interaction with this black woman who was in exile from Haiti. And I'm fascinated by that. And so, that's kind of one of the things I'm doing that's related to the Lemon Project. I'm also looking at, one of our holes is fully understanding the post-war period up until the turn of the 20th century.
And so, I'm dabbling in that too. But my actual, the manuscript I'm working on is actually coming out of my dissertation, which is not related to lemon, it's more related to the disenfranchising of blacks. In Virginia, the general assembly passed a Constitution in 1902, like other states in confederate, that disenfranchised most black men. And so, that's my big project right now.
So, it's not directly lemon related, but it's still part of the African. Part of that conversation. Right. Yeah.
Absolutely. Well, Jodi, congratulations on all the work that you and your team and volunteers in the community have done with the Lemon Project. And thank you for joining us on this episode of Working History. Thank you so much for having me.
It was great talking with you. And you're okay. Thanks again to Jodi Allen for joining us today to discuss the Lemon Project, a journey of reconciliation at the College of William & Mary. And thank you for listening to this episode of Working History, a podcast produced for the Southern Labor Studies Association.
Become a member online at www.southernlaborstudies.org and follow Working History on Twitter at Working History.