Remarkable World Commentary Episode #100: Interview with Frank Smith, National Coordinator of the National Educational Association of Disabled Students (NEADS)

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #100: Interview with Frank Smith, National Coordinator of the National Educational Association of Disabled Students (NEADS) https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-07-27-2026/ In this milestone 100th episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan speaks with Frank Smith, the founding National Coordinator of the National Educational Association of Disabled Students, as he approaches retirement after a 40-year career. Frank traces NEADS from its beginnings, a Carleton journalism student who befriended disabled peers in Glengarry House residence, wrote a federal grant application, and helped convene the founding national conference at Ottawa's Westin Hotel in July 1986, organized entirely by mail and telephone before the internet. He describes what post-secondary study was like for disabled students then: sprawling inaccessible campuses, books on tape that took far longer to get through, ASL interpreters instead of captioning, little recognition of learning disabilities or autism, and mental health supports he calls simply not good. He points to Jennison Asuncion, Anthony Tibbs and many others as proof that students with disabilities, given accessible education, go on to full careers. Turning to the present, Frank argues the need for NEADS has not gone away: a post-secondary funding crisis driven partly by falling international enrolment, Ontario's flip from 80% grants to 20%, growing debt loads, and an accommodation system still anchored in a medical model. He explains what makes NEADS distinct, an organization of students and graduates with disabilities rather than for them, with a disabled board, staff and consultants, and describes its recent employer toolkit and its job coaching work under the federal Workplace Opportunities: Removing Barriers to Equity program. He confirms he turned 65 on July 19 and retires at the end of September, with Katja Newman succeeding him. The conversation closes warmly and off-the-cuff, with Donna raising her Believing Is Achieving camp initiative and a possible collaboration at Camp Massawippi, and Frank recounting how singing lessons taken during a mental health crisis led to six albums. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, and MBA invites you to listen to her bi-weekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access, technology, and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate and accessibility consultant and author, lifelong barrier buster, who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010, I won the landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted Canadians. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal: to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench, where policy meets lived experience and lived experience meets fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. I am extremely pleased and privileged to have Frank Smith, the CEO of NEADS, and I will let Frank tell you all about NEADS. But Frank, welcome to our podcast, and here we go. Frank Smith: Thank you so much, Donna. It's really a pleasure and an honor to be part of your podcast. And of course, I've been aware for a long time of your significant contributions to the disability movement. So congratulations to you. Of course. I have been with the National Educational Association of Disabled Students for 40 years now, and it's been quite a career. And we're primarily a youth-serving organization. So these days, I'm sort of the oldest person in every room, whether virtual or in person. Some people would say that I have great wisdom and experience. Other people would say, maybe it's about time you retired or something, which I will be doing shortly. But no, after a 40-year career, but I'm so excited to talk to you about everything that the organization has accomplished to date. And I know that the organization will continue to have a bright future after I move on into retirement. Donna Jodhan: You have devoted essentially your whole career to a single mission. So I'd like to begin at the beginning. What first drew you as a young journalism student at Carleton University into the world of disability advocacy? Frank Smith: Yes. I was a young once upon a time. I was a young journalism student at Carleton University, all bright eyed and bushy tailed. I was a student from 1981 to 1985 when I received my Bachelor of Journalism degree. I lived in residence for the first three years of my honors program, and in residence I was living at Glengarry House. And there were quite a few other students with disabilities, men and women, young men and women, who were living in Glengarry House on campus, in residence when I was there, and I became friends with a number of them. A number of folks with disabilities who were peers and fellow students. Some of them were in the journalism program with me. And over the course of my studies, I started actually writing stories about disability issues. Frank Smith: Or assignments that we had in more than one of our journalism courses. I became really fascinated with the issues affecting disabled students at all levels in terms of access to university studies at Carleton. And after I graduated, I was invited to write a grant application to what was at the time the Secretary of State and the Disabled Persons Participation Program, to establish the first — to hold the first national conference, the first conference of a proposed organization of disabled students across Canada. And that initiative was at the time very much involved students with disabilities who were part of Awareness Carleton, which is the precursor to the current Carleton Disability Awareness Centre, which was a service centre supported by the Carleton University Students' Association. At the time, was more of a club than a service centre. So the majority of the people who were involved in that first grant application to hold a national conference were disabled students. And we held our first national conference at the Westin Hotel in July of 1986. And at the national conference, we were able to bring together students with disabilities from colleges and universities from across Canada for a number of workshops and discussion sessions. And at that conference, we established a constitution for the organization and the first board of directors of the organization. And those were very exciting times for the organization, because it was the foundation of NEADS. And we called it the conference, the foundation. Donna Jodhan: You were part of a small group that founded NEADS back in 1986, and you're still its national coordinator four decades later. What did that founding moment look like, and what convinced you that this organization simply had to exist? Frank Smith: Well, I think when we had that conference — and let me tell you, at the time it was not only costly, but we had a grant to support the costs of the event, which included travel and accommodation of subsidized students to attend. But it was also difficult to organize a conference like that, and particularly one that was founding an organization rather than an organization that had already existed for a period of time and had infrastructure and everything else, lots of staff, as many NGOs did at that time. Right. So we were organizing a conference before the internet. Oh, young people today cannot even imagine what that would look like. Right. So we were literally sending out mailings to schools and using the telephone and using all sorts of primitive methods of networking and communication. And somehow we managed. I think we had about 130 people or something. The majority of them were disabled students from across the country. We managed to organize the thing and get people into Ottawa and arrange their transportation. And we had at that time sign language interpretation. We had various accommodations for the participants. And really, most of us who were involved, including myself, didn't have a lot of experience with conference planning, but we learned along the way. And over the course of the weekend, that first conference, my passion for the organization, which was just starting in its earliest days — my passion for the issues and for the organization just increased over the course of that weekend. Frank Smith: And once we had a board of directors in place, and they seemed to be interested in having me continue on in the role of coordinator, that was very exciting. We didn't have — we had a couple of part-time people who were working with me. So we didn't have a huge staff. We had an office at Carleton. So those were very sort of heady days. And we basically started an organization from scratch, and clearly there was a need for it. There were organizations. There were other student organizations, of course. At the time there was — there wasn't an organization in Canada representing disabled students. And of course, there were service providers who worked in the disability services offices. And there were, at that time, other national organizations of persons with disabilities, including the precursor to the Council of Canadians with Disabilities, which was COPOH. They were called the Coalition of Provincial Organizations of the Handicapped. You can see why they later changed their name. Yeah. And there were other organizations too, many of them representing sort of single disability issues. And we formed ourselves — which are, of course, those organizations are important too, but we created an organization that was designed to be across disability and to support college and university students with disabilities as our constituency. Donna Jodhan: I think two very high profile names come to my mind, because I know that they have been associated with NEADS in the past, and that's how I got to know about NEADS. I was never a member of NEADS, but I referred to Jennison Asuncion and Anthony Tibbs have made wonderful contributions to the advocacy movement. And I know that they've spoken very highly of NEADS. So I think definite products of advocacy have come out of your organization. And for this, I personally, I'm very, very grateful. Frank Smith: Yeah. I think you mentioned Jennison and Anthony Tibbs. So Jennison was actually on the board of directors for our organization for a number of years, went on to be involved with Adaptech, Dawson College, and I believe he still works as a senior accessibility person with LinkedIn. He's in the United States now. And I've lost track of Anthony a little bit, although I saw him a few years ago. He spoke at more than one of our conferences. And I know that he's an expert on adaptive technologies. He also has been involved, I think, with AEBC, the Alliance for Equality of Blind Canadians, and other organizations in the movement. There's so many people. And that's the other thing that I will say, is that you mentioned just two people there. Yeah. Between board members of the organization over time who are volunteers, and staff that we've had, and consultants working with our organization, which have all been people with disabilities with one or two exceptions, there are so many outstanding people who were outstanding student leaders at the time that they were with the organization and have gone on to incredible careers. Some of them have continued working on the issues with other organizations or in the private sector, you name it. Right. But it actually just speaks to — and I could name many people, but it just speaks to the fact that people with disabilities, when afforded the opportunity of accessible education, can be successful in all fields of study, in all disciplines, and can move on into the competitive employment market and make a contribution, continue to make a contribution throughout their entire working lives in their communities, and addressing the issues that need to be addressed. Frank Smith: On behalf of disabled persons, by persons with disabilities, which was always the most important thing. And I should say that at the time when I first became involved with the organization, I wasn't a person with a disability myself. Although around 2006, I was hit with a really weird flu like virus, which for a period of time was identified as chronic fatigue syndrome and then Lyme disease. And with different diagnoses, I continue to have symptoms, physical symptoms. And also it's affected my mental health. So I started out as a person without a disability working in a disabled persons organization. And then, like a lot of people in society, I acquired a disability over time. And that actually made me, I think, much better at my job. Right. Having greater empathy and greater understanding with lived experience. And that's always the most important thing in our community, with our organizations, to have lived experience. You talked about that at the beginning, in your introduction. Donna Jodhan: Yeah. Now, when this began in 1986, campus life for students with disabilities was a very different world. No internet, no smartphones. Textbooks [arriving? 00:17:04] on tape or in Braille. Weeks behind everyone else. Can you take our listeners back to what post-secondary study was actually like for disabled students then? Frank Smith: Well, you've actually cited, Donna, a number of the factors and the circumstances that were in place during that time, way back when the organization started, in fact through the 80s and into the 90s. And the early part of the 2000. Well, we ended up having the internet and we ended up having online access. Used to be called the information superhighway. Remember when. Donna Jodhan: Oh, yes. Frank Smith: When the internet was first available to us. So what that meant for accessibility for students with disabilities, what really depended on was dependent upon the student's disability. Right. So their physical access issues, if somebody was a wheelchair user student, they had to navigate a campus that oftentimes was spread out all over the place. Many, many blocks, particularly bigger schools like the University of Toronto or Queen's or McGill University. Some of the Atlantic Canadian universities were fairly spread out, and they all had different kind of topography to them too, right? Some were hilly, some were flat, some had built like old heritage buildings with or without elevators. So there were the physical access issues which continue to this day, although with modern building codes and legislation governing the accessibility of new construction and even renovating older buildings, we have more physically accessible spaces, I would say. But physical challenges still existed then, to a greater extent still exists today, I think. For students, for example, who were with vision loss of any kind, it was particularly challenging, as you mentioned. I mean, some students who had some sight were able to use either regular books or books in large print. Certainly, as you mentioned, books on tape. That was very primitive kind of technology and it took a lot more time for the student, and you would be well aware of this. It took a lot more time for personal experience. It took a lot more time to reread a book and consume information than it does using electronic formats and speech recognition software and things like that with electronic documents. Frank Smith: So there was actually a student who was a peer of [mine in journalism? 00:20:15], Peter Field, who actually went on to quite a career in the federal public service. And he was a blind journalism student. He was in the same program as I was in. And I know it was particularly challenging for him, but he did very, very well. But he would have found it less challenging today. But he managed to work with what, the technology that was available to him. Right. And like a lot of students. Right. And they learned and they adapted. We had, for students with hearing loss, there wasn't captioning per se, but there was. And of course some students needed, preferred to have, would have — I guess there's some sort of primitive captioning at the time. There were ASL interpreters that were hired, I think through the Canadian Hearing Society at the time. And those kinds of services were available. But even just doing research in the library, for example, was challenging for students with different types of disabilities. There wasn't as much recognition of learning disabilities back then. There were assessments, but a lot of students were not assessed properly. There was no understanding of autism spectrum conditions like there is today. Frank Smith: And we now realize that there are a greater percentage of — a very high percentage of students are neurodivergent on our campuses, right? So there are very few services for those students. Back then, the mental health supports were not good. Many students were actually afraid to self-identify as having a disability and even register with their disability services offices. And I think that of course that required, and still requires to this day, medical documentation, which is one thing that has not changed over time. It's still very much a medical model when it comes to delivery of accommodations and supports for students with disabilities, whether it's with exams and assignments or with in the classroom accommodations. It's very much still medical model. So that sort of thing hasn't changed. I will say that, fast forward to 2026, more students have access to technologies that totally level the playing field, whether in school or work. The technologies are, in relative terms, the adaptive technologies are much more affordable and available, but there's still an issue with costs for many things. And many students struggle, of course, with even housing and food insecurity, for example. Right. So even things that are equipment that we might consider reasonably priced in relative terms is still out of reach for some students who don't receive sufficient financial aid to cover the costs. Donna Jodhan: Things have really improved since the beginnings of NEADS, right? I mean, I can vouch for that in many ways, in that I've seen so many stages of technical or technology progress. So, but there is still a lot more work to be done, right? Frank Smith: There is a lot more work to be done. And that's why there continues to be a need for organizations like ours in the post-secondary space. And also for — I should say for many other disability organizations that have different mandates. In some cases it's still like similar mandates in terms of, it's a voice of our own and consumer directed and supported. Clearly the advocacy organizations are very different from the service providers like CNIB, for example, the service provider. And there's still a need for organizations, because the fact of the matter is they're persons with disabilities continue to have their basic human rights denied in many contexts. And that includes in school, at work, in community, access to housing, transportation, you name it. Right. And all of those things, by the way, are critically important for students who have disabilities to fully participate in academic and campus life. Right. Many students need accessible transportation. They need attendant services. They need the supports in community. And many of those supports, of course, are on campus. But we're in a situation right now where we have colleges and universities are facing a funding crisis because. Donna Jodhan: Right. Frank Smith: Partly — to a large degree, actually — because of the reduction of international students coming into the country and the reduction of those fees that help to support academic programs and student services. So there's that pressure that's being felt on students who may be kind of marginalized in a university or college programs. And we have to remember too, as the organization moves forward after 40 years of work, that there's a lot more enabling human rights legislation that has a benefit, of course, but there's more work to be done. And you think about the AODA in Ontario and the progress that's been made, probably further along than other provinces that have provincial disability legislation, but not far enough. And then you've got now the Accessible Canada Act, which you cited in the first place, which deals with a number of really important pillars of accessibility within the federally regulated sector. But getting back to the funding crisis, we also have not enough funding going into public post-secondary through the Canada Social Transfer, the federal funding, and oftentimes many of the provincial and territorial governments, even if they receive, when they receive the transfer payments, are not spending that money where it should be spent. Frank Smith: Right? So those things are problematic. And then we have the issues of high tuition, issues relating to inadequacy of financial aid, a move in Ontario, for example, recently to change the alignment of grants to loans. It was 80-20, now it's 20-80 or something. In favor of — it was 80% grants and 20% loans. And now it's the other way around. Yeah. I believe the federal program, the Canada Student Financial Assistance Program — and most students receive a combination of federal and provincial grants and loans — continues to provide higher grants. And they haven't reduced that and significantly added to the loans, which of course creates debt load upon graduation, and particularly for students with high financial need who might take longer to complete their programs of study. So we continue to have lots of issues that need to be addressed in a modern context. Right. Donna Jodhan: Right, right. You hold a Bachelor of Journalism from Carleton, and you still curate so much of NEADS's storytelling. How has that training as a communicator shaped the way that you have led the organization and carried the voices of disabled students to the wider public? Frank Smith: I think that through the first 20 years or so of the organization, I did a lot more writing. I continued to write press releases and edit research reports and things like that. But over the years we've hired lots of consultants and staff who have significant expertise in communication. So I think that my — and, in more recent years, expertise in social media communication, which is not something that I — I mean, I'm on social media personally and through my musical interests and things like that. But, and I do a little bit of management of our social media accounts, particularly Facebook, but we've actually brought in people. So my journalism background has served me well in this role, because there's certainly a lot of writing and there's research that's being done by the organization. But typically, if there's a research project, we have a lead researcher, like most recently, we released what I think is a groundbreaking report on an employer toolkit, which is a guideline for accessibility and accommodations at all steps — at all stages of the employment process. And that project was led by Dr. [Charles Emmanuel? 00:30:50], who's at Nipissing University, and some researchers that we hired to work with him. Frank Smith: So while I read those drafts of those reports and provide input, it's not like I'm writing everything that the organization produces. I do also continue to add media releases to our website, but oftentimes those are written by other people. And I review our communications often before they go out. But thankfully we have — I think one of the most important things that we've done over the course of time, so the organization could meet student needs where they were at in the moment, in that moment in time, is that we have continued to hire young people with disabilities to work within the organization. And those people of course have — I think we have a problem in the movement, in that we have a lot of old people, right? Not that those people are not doing great advocacy work, including myself. So but I think the organization has continued to rejuvenate itself by bringing in new people, young people, some with not a great deal of work experience, but very outstanding communicators and writers and passionate about the issues, which is probably the most important thing, and also have been able to offer that youth perspective in everything that we do. Frank Smith: And that's always been critical, because we serve students and support students with disabilities of all ages who are in post-secondary studies, of course, but we're primarily a youth-serving organization. Right. And in order to be [a] youth-serving organization, we have young people on our board. We have young people on our staff primarily. And that really is important to make sure that we address the issues properly, according to what students, young students with disabilities are facing as they navigate post-secondary and they navigate employment and work integrated learning situations relating to their academic studies. Often that has been important, I think, for the organization and important for me, to make sure that we continue to rejuvenate the organization by having more young people involved. And many have stayed. Many people that we hire, and often we hire them on a Canada Summer Jobs grant or something, have stayed with the organization for many years after their summer job or whatever. That's another thing. We've done a good job of retaining people. Donna Jodhan: Right. Frank Smith: And then some people, when they're ready to move on to something else, they've had their experience with NEADS. We say goodbye and wish them well. And they do go on to do great things. Donna Jodhan: Is this the only type of organization in Canada, would you say? Frank Smith: Yeah. We're the only national organization with a specific focus on post-secondary education across disability perspective and intersectional lens and all that stuff, right? That we apply to the work that we do. There are on-campus disabled students groups that are supported by student unions that are part of our network. There's also an organization in Quebec, the Quebec Association for Equity and Inclusion in Post-Secondary Education, which has a very similar mission and mandate to our organization. And then, of course, as we're working with the on-campus disabled students groups and student leaders across the country in the work we do as an organization, it's also very important for us to work collectively with the broader national disability organizations community. Right? And there [are] about 19 or 20 pretty prominent disability groups across Canada that I would call advocacy groups. All right, let's see. I wouldn't want to call them that. No, no, that's mostly of what we do is, I would say most people is we provide information and support to enable people to be successful. One of the things that we do, if I talk about advocacy, it's more about individual advocacy and supporting people. In circumstances, for example, when we advocate to the federal government to make improvements to the Canada Student Financial Assistance Program, is not political advocacy. That is looking at a program that's provided by government and advising them as to how they can make it better from a student perspective. Frank Smith: Right. We do a lot of that. And we also will meet and support individual students with disabilities who have access issues, although we don't have enough people working with us currently to do a lot of that. And what we do is produce enabling resources and websites and hold forums that allow students to share their voices on different issues. So I think that's the other thing, is, well, our organization has a unique mission as a national group. We also situate ourselves within the community of a lot of national disability organizations. And there's strength in that, right? So we are working together to — as you mentioned in the beginning, we talked about the Accessible Canada Act and what many organizations did to advocate for that and advocate for improvements to it, the Canada Disability Benefit. While it's only up to $2,000 a year, there was a lot of work that went into [it] from the community. People, people like you, to ensure that that became available. And it's the kind of funding that can be available. Once it's established, it can be improved over time, right? It can become a more significant benefit over time. Donna Jodhan: You know, there's so many other questions that I'd like to ask you, but the clock is telling me I only have limited time. But I have this question for you. For listeners who may be meeting NEADS for the first time, how would you describe its vision today, and the community of post-secondary students and graduates with disabilities it represents right across Canada? Frank Smith: How would I describe its mission today? Donna Jodhan: Yeah. Frank Smith: Well, I think our mission is similar to what it was in the very beginning. But I think that the world has changed a lot. And the experience for students is different now than it was way back in 1986. Yeah. And I think that the organization is trying all the time to be a voice of college and university students with disabilities. And sometimes we do that as an organization, and sometimes we do that in support of other organizations and their issues. So like, even for example, on individual campuses where on campus, disabled students groups and student leaders are holding or proposing referenda or something to change something at their university or college, we often lend our support and sign petitions and write letters and do all of that good stuff. Right. So I think the one thing that has always been important, and is even more important today than it was 40 years ago, is that the organization is an organization of students and graduates with disabilities, not for students and graduates with disabilities. And we embed that in everything that we do. Right. Anybody on the board has a disability. They're either currently in school or they've graduated within the last five years from a college or university program. All the staff members have disability, various disabilities. All the consultants we bring in, we make a point of hiring people with disabilities. Frank Smith: We most recently did a very successful employment project with funding from the federal government's program called Workplace Opportunities: Removing Barriers to Equity Program. And as part of that project, we did job coaching. We offered a job coaching service, which was free up to 20 hours per participant. And it was for students and graduates with disabilities. And we made a point of hiring job coaches with disabilities who had some experience in the career counseling, career support area. And also those job coaches received training through the Sustainable Livelihoods Canada approach to deliver this particular program. So and we always hire students who have disabilities through the Canada Summer Jobs program and other programs where we get funding for work integrated learning opportunities. So that has been — we've not pivoted the organization to become a service organization like CNIB, for example. Right. There's a place for that. Yeah. The need for that. But that's not who we are and that's not what we do. And that doesn't mean that we won't on occasion collaborate with service providers, including on campus folks who work in accessible learning offices, of course. Right. But we have very much maintained that consumer perspective. And that means that embedded within the organization's principles and mission is that people with disabilities are directing the organization and running it. Donna Jodhan: I'd like to end this interview with one final question, but after that, I'd like for you to stick around after the recording is over. I wanted to ask you one or two questions. Can you share with us your retirement date, or are you just thinking about it? Frank Smith: I will be retiring at the end of September. Donna Jodhan: Oh. Oh, I got you in time. Frank Smith: I turned 65 on July 19th, and I'm retiring at the end of September. And we will have a new national coordinator. Katja Newman will be our national coordinator. And she's been with the organization now for about six years, has run the NEADS Student Financial Assistance Program, which is provided since 2007 $1.35 million in grants and awards to disabled students. She's also worked on our most recent Building Employment Pathways project, and has managed people and has done a lot of fund development work. And she's got lots of connections in the disability community. So we will be in very good hands. I may still be involved as a volunteer, if the organization wants me to advise them or offer any kind of support as a volunteer. But yeah, so it was about time for me to move on and give somebody else the opportunity to lead the organization. Probably — it's very unusual these days for anybody to work for any organization for 40 years. That's something. Donna Jodhan: Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure. Frank Smith: And particularly today, most people starting a career today [have? 00:44:24] no intention of working for one organization. But, and I think it's a good idea actually for people to switch careers over time and switch, find different opportunities. But I've been with this — in this job, and this job has changed over time quite a bit. So I'm rolling with the opportunity. Donna Jodhan: I'm very fortunate that I caught you before you retired. I mean, and to have started your career with NEADS at such a young age. You were just a kid. Frank Smith: I was, and not with much experience, unlike the person who will be assuming my role shortly. And I think — but I do think that lots of organizations are started by people who are young and are maybe not very experienced, but have a great — the most important thing is having a passion for — yeah, for whatever it is that you're doing. Right. And having that passion goes a long way. And sometimes, when you're young and you're inexperienced, you will make lots of mistakes. You'll learn from — Donna Jodhan: Yes. Frank Smith: You'll grow from them. You learn how to — the other thing working within an NGO, and you'd be familiar with this, is you have to deal with all sorts of different personalities and perspectives. Yeah, it'd be a really good listener. And sometimes you have to find a way to resolve conflicts. Donna Jodhan: Yeah. Frank Smith: You can't work with an organization for 40 years without having to deal with difficult things. Donna Jodhan: Yes. Frank Smith: And that's the other thing about it, right? So I feel like I've kind of adapted over time. I feel like I'm a person with great empathy. And my approach has always been in working with people, whether it's collaborating with our board or working with staff, is to be really supportive to people. It's always been important for me to empower people. I mean, I don't believe in giving people gratuitous accolades if they don't deserve it. But recognizing a job well done, giving credit where credit is due, and building people up. Because sometimes people start in a role with an organization, including ours, and they don't have a lot of self-confidence. And sometimes that lack of self-confidence is partly related to the disability. Right? Donna Jodhan: Yes. Frank Smith: And kind of beaten down over time and told that you can't do things that they very clearly can with support. So I've also always tried to empower people, try to make the job fun, like working within the organization fun. We have this phrase that we use quite regularly: NEADS team is the best team. And we say that fairly often to one another, right? To support one another. And that helps. That helps too. I think that's another reason why I've been around as long as I have, is because I really — I'm passionate about the issues and I'm passionate about working with people and building them up and empowering them. And that's always been critical for me in everything that I do. Donna Jodhan: These are wonderful motivating words from someone like yourself. And I do want to thank you for having been around, having really been a great foundation for so many people. Like I said, I mentioned Jennison and Anthony, but I know that there are other people as well, many others. I want to thank you for this interview. And if you ever wanted to come back at any time to talk about anything — I know we didn't touch on your music, but I'd like to touch on that at some point in time in the near future. I'm going to end this recording now, but I wanted to — so I'd like to ask you this question. You and I had discussed my camp retreat possibility. This thing has taken off in a way that I did not expect, in that my camp is now entitled Believing Is Achieving, and that's fantastic. Yeah. Thank you. It has turned into giving seminars and workshops and sessions [and? 00:48:59] day camps. And I'm still very much interested in having some sort of camp retreat. And we do have the facilities at Camp Massawippi. But we have to find ways to attract participants and to fundraise. Should it be you I should be talking to before you leave? Or should I be talking to the new person? Frank Smith: Well, it depends on when you have communications available you can share with us. Certainly, we're happy to share, using our various platforms, any kind of a good initiative that could have the participation of people that we represent. Right? Yeah. That includes, of course — I think very early on, we were more narrowly focused on the academic experience. Yeah. But we have increasingly focused on the importance as well of campus life and inclusion in all different things at university and college, but also in the community. And it includes recreational activities. I love swimming, for example. I'm at the Carleton — Donna Jodhan: Oh yeah. Frank Smith: — almost every day. And I feel like, we know that students with disabilities like participating in a broad range of things. I've got music that I'm passionate about. There are lots of other young people in our community who are passionate about music, or passionate about the sports that they're involved in, or any one of a number of things. And that includes going to different camps and having those experiences. I went to, when I was a kid, I went to a camp in Georgian Bay on Beausoleil Island, Camp Kitchikewana, which was a fabulous experience for me. I learned how to swim and canoe and learned all sorts of skills. I never learned to tie knots to save my life when I was learning sailing. But I was [unclear 00:51:26] a canoe, but terrible in a sailboat, and people would actually frequently throw me overboard. Donna Jodhan: Oh, no. Oh, no! Oh, God. Frank Smith: Knots. I learned to tie my shoes, but I couldn't learn all the complicated knots that are required. Donna Jodhan: Oh. Frank Smith: You're a sailor. Donna Jodhan: Okay, so if I could find some time in the next week, because I'm traveling from August the 10th. I will have Wi-Fi access while I'm gone. But I'd like to talk to you and your successor about this. Frank Smith: Sure. Donna Jodhan: When is a good time to talk to you? Like, when are your best times? Frank Smith: It really depends on the week, Donna. Donna Jodhan: Okay. Frank Smith: Give me a couple of dates and times that work for you, and then we'll go from there. Donna Jodhan: I will do that shortly. I'll send out some availability to you. And like I said, the dimensions of my original approach to you have changed drastically, but I still — yeah. Well, the thing is, Frank, because I grew up in Montreal, my heart belongs to Montreal. And I've always wanted to give something back to the guys in Montreal, especially the Montreal Association for the Blind. It's a passion of mine, a dream of mine. And I would like to see if we could work together to make this happen in some way, shape or form. Frank Smith: Well, let's have that conversation again. Yeah, let me know when you're available. Donna Jodhan: I will send out — I will send some availability to you in the next few minutes. But again, this was an enlightening conversation. Frank Smith: Thank you so much. You made it a great conversation with you. Donna Jodhan: And I would like to invite you to come back sometime in the next few months to talk about your music, because I am engaged in a podcast called The Mental Stretch with Donna, and I'm trying to revitalize this thing to include, how does one use music to help relax? So you might be the perfect guest. Frank Smith: Well, that would be great. And I came to music because I was going through a health and a mental health crisis. Frank Smith: I always loved — I've got a huge collection of music across genres. I've always been a keen listener. I've sung along to my favorite albums over the years, but it was when I was at my lowest point that I realized I needed to find another — used to be a long distance runner. I needed to find another activity, and I ended up taking singing lessons with the guy that I went on to do six albums with. That's the — Donna Jodhan: Wow. Are you definitely coming back? Frank Smith: It was — he was a meditation instructor as well as a music instructor. And he also plays crystal bowls and stuff. So he also did sonic healing. So you talk about. And so a lot of people with mental health struggles would go to Jeremy, his crystal bowls and sonic healing sessions. So there's certainly a lot of that connected to the music we ended up doing, although I would say it's more rock, progressive rock. Most of the music we did together was not exactly new age music or relaxing with crystal bowls, but it kind of grew out of that experience. Donna Jodhan: I think you would be a fine guest for maybe our December thing, but that's coming. Let me first set up some time for us to have a discussion sometime next week. Perfect. Thank you so much. And you keep well. Thanks, Frank. Frank Smith: I'm glad the storm didn't interrupt our interview this time. Donna Jodhan: Oh my gosh, that was frightening, though. When you told me and I heard your wife screaming at you. Frank Smith: I did that in the basement. Yeah, exactly. But it didn't turn out to be much of anything. But we had to wait out the warning. Frank Smith: And we've had tornadoes come through here in the last few years, so we don't — it used to be that I said, oh yeah, sure, that never happens here. Well, it does. So it's not like, you don't have to be in the American Midwest to have tornado, microburst like that. With climate change happening, it's happening everywhere. Donna Jodhan: It is. It is. And climate change is here to stay. Except that some people we will not mention names, doesn't believe in it. Frank Smith: That's the sad reality. And that's moving our planet ever closer to its demise, I think, sadly. But hopefully we'll be around for a while longer. Donna Jodhan: Let's keep our fingers crossed and look for a note from me in the next few minutes. Frank Smith: Great. Thank you, Donna. Donna Jodhan: Thank you, Frank. It was a pleasure. Take care now. Frank Smith: Thanks. Donna Jodhan: Bye. Bye bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.