Good afternoon, and thank you for tuning in to the daily standard podcast today is June 25th, 2018 Charlie Sykes is on assignment today in lovely Aspen, Colorado And I'm your host Jim Swift stepping in joined today by Bill Crystal and Fred Barnes Co-founders of the weekly standard here to talk about their dear friend the late Charles Scott hammer gentlemen. Thanks for joining me Good to be with you, Jim. Mm-hmm. Certainly.
So you guys have known Charles Charles for decades and he's been contributing out of the magazine for a long time What what are some of your favorite stories and getting to know the man over all those years? I mean Fred you actually worked with him at the New Republic before I got to Washington and you have for 10 years And you actually really you know sure were in the office with him every day I was before he had to get set up his own office on 93 with where he sort of held court and didn't get out quite as much That was a lot, but it wasn't the same so you had the most sort of office experience with him Well, I did and Charles was you know Unique He was very popular in those days. He was becoming the conservative and of course his famous article on the Reagan doctrine which Actually President Reagan didn't know it was a doctorate until Charles wrote a piece and described what it was and it was American support for anti-communist guerrillas You know revolutionaries in communist countries in Nicaragua and Afghanistan and and a few others and as I recall one of the people who like that article The most it was in Time magazine that was President Reagan I liked it and I believe Charles was invited to the White House at some point the one thing we know we know about Charles is that Things like that didn't go to his head and But I think that was a an important moment though Reagan doctrine piece because it was I think it was the first really Conservative piece at least that I'd read by him that didn't he was a very strong supporter of Israel before but that that is not an Exclusively conservative position, but the Reagan doctrine it was you know that reminds me that the pieces he went for us to after leaving That you know after you left the New Republican I guess he would make a trip to get it there a little longer I think eventually both ties with the New Republic which and he certainly started with the standard I remember how happy we were having was contributing editor indeed He came actually to some of our editorial meetings This is a little bit pre-internet or free email about so that you know It was actually people came to meetings in those days and just shoot email ideas and contributed to thoughts But he was in the first issue and really a terrific piece and I was looking at his pieces and they're on our website I mean they're back more than 40 for the weekly standard which maybe a half of them were quite long You know two three four thousand were pieces I mean that was the difference you was a weekly column that was eight hundred words and pieces on space on chess on Computers foreign policy obviously very famous piece among certainly like the pro-Israel world in the Jewish world on really I'm more than just Israel But I'm sort of the fate of the Jewish people something would happen Israel after Zion I think it was called in 1998, so he really wasn't fantastic pieces for both in the Republic and And the weekly standard it wasn't I don't mean to say this any it wasn't just a columnist I was columned 1600 of them were fantastic Yeah, and that's of course where he made his name and we capitalized on that and and got him to write longer pieces that were That no longer went I think almost all of them were on the cover and and they and they were tremendous when I left in particular was about the United Nations which used to be Opposing the United Nations and It is a based Generally a conservative position now, but back in the 50s when my parents were very conservative opposed the United Nations and remember the saying you know get the US out of the UN and the UN out of the US and My parents were a little larry of the New Republic when I went to work there and and then the Charles Wrote for us later that Something that was close to being get the US out of the UN and the UN out of the US a wonderful piece But it shows you how Charles had changed and and how politics and conservatism had changed But Charles really was a kind of neo-conservative in a way that I Probably wasn't and I was always more always more conservative My father really did move from the liberal anti-computers level to a much more thorough conservative and Charles had the same progress and that Respectingly generation was a little more like I was my parents generation is actually then mine And I think that gave him a real appreciation of you know He was less dogmatic maybe than some of us and an appreciation of the complexity of things didn't move on every issue And I think the critique of the UN was probably less I would put it you know kind of theological or the fields to sovereignty and so forth and more of a practical look Is it actually increasing the chances of peace in the world is it increasing people's well-being or is it actually Running excuses to deck tiktaters to do worse things and and he was a very empirical hard-headed Realistic in a way that the early neo-conservative particularly were in respect to I mean he and he really kept to that to the end obviously Yeah, I don't think you ever called himself in the audience maybe not the buddy but he compared himself to the found you know I in that conversation I did with him we talked a little more about himself and you know he doesn't he talks about going up in Canada I go to school in Canada and not having the same education or you know Automatics reference not that people in America really do but anyway Then people in America might have you might say for the American fathers and you know He didn't go to the Lincoln Memorial like class trips He was in Montreal he went to whatever to go to a Montreal, you know I can fight that battle near there and with the general wolf and all that and of course It was the French were fighting the British at the time in the 60s in Montreal And so he said he came and then he went to the went to McGill and then he went to Oxford for a year And I came to Harvard Medical School, so really he doesn't encounter he studies the stuff of course He's super smart so he picks it up very quickly, but he didn't really encounter the American founders the way a lot of us did Maybe the good college course we realized well, that's really impressive And I think it made almost more of an impact on him. He says that and he was so attracted to their hard-headed realism People are this is not government of angels ambition has to counteract ambition We need to build a lot of institutions and a constitution and safeguards against things going off the rails I mean that was very much his political view very non-utopian non-utopian his last column for the post I looked it up What he died it was in August of 2017 so ten months ago It was about guardrails and he had some businesses of what friends in trouble done that week and it was sort of the guardrails are holding And that's a very Charles like Yeah attitude I think hard-headed attitude towards how democracy could work You know he didn't talk about his family much or about himself much But when you got to know him well and sometimes you would and I remember spending about an hour after lunch at his office And and somehow I got him to talk about his father who was a remarkable figure and was in France and then in Brazil and Cuba and Canada the US I guess at the end the and his father was a An important political figure in France, but he knew when to get out and Charles one of the things that he loved about the US the founding fathers were certainly One of them and some of the other things when I remember him him telling me this with real emphasis and that is that America Was the one place in the world where Jews were safe and they were not persecuted the way they had been everywhere else in the world for Thousands of years They weren't always safe in America, but they are now and and Charles recognize that is as one of the great things about America I agree So you guys you know knew him outside of the editorial meetings in the green rooms and those sorts of things you know I know you like to go to Wizards basketball games.
Yeah, he was a big fan of sports, especially baseball Did you ever get to go to a baseball game with? Oh, yeah, I think most of us went a few times And he had you know, they had a place in the stadium where he could sit in his wheelchair with somebody sitting beside him as I recall Yes, I mean you get that extra seat for I mean maybe that they that's the way they I don't know I said you knew the owners you knew the owners But they also be that if you're in a wheelchair they to make room for sort of someone who might have to be with you You know, but in any case it was great to go to games with Charles You got this extremely good seat in those in that section behind and a lot of people would drop by yeah To say hello or didn't you know people like to not touch Charles with that But they did like to go up in the and not make a long conversation But but say something to him kind of reminds me of the very first time we did the Broadmoor I tweeted about this because I didn't know him at all But I remember we hadn't really planned for the you know value to tendies to go get spend time with him And people were trying to bother him during dinner And I kind of reprised my role as a college bouncer to kind of you know Let the man eat his dinner Catherine Lowe had asked him you know ran our events at the time Hey, is it okay if people get pictures with you afterwards and he took pictures with every darn person in there And I was trying to rush people through to be respectful of his time and you know he kind of said, you know Hey, you know leave that be you know, I these people you know are here and they want to see me and I You know, I was really struck by that. Yeah, I was I think the first time he came to the Broadmoor for the weekly standard event He was on the in a on stage where he spoke. I introduced him and I don't remember anything I said but I remember what happened afterwards and Charles started to come down and did come down and it was coming down in his wheelchair and I forget what the path was but anyway, somebody said said well, look Charles doesn't want to He'll be mobbed by people so once you go in and rescue him and I said, okay I will and I said and I give up to Charles and said look I'll help you get out of here and he said I don't Don't want to get out of here.
These people have paid a lot of money to come and hear me speak and I'm gonna I'd be happy to talk to them and of course they all came up to it had a long line and the trials were very gracious about it Yeah, we've got emails this last few days from people who had photos taken with them and comments sort of how you know You can tell if you're someone regret you leave a very quick photo And it's eager to have you move on to someone who actually says where you're from and is interested in the story or two And there's a wonderful story that circulated widely online This was not at the Broadmoor from the gentleman who had a photo taken with Charles at some speech rather And then he had this terrible accent very much like Charles's and Charles found out about it somehow It's a little unclear how his son was what who tweeted about this I saw it on Twitter But I think it was all over the place and Charles just went out of his way to write this general letter saying you've had the same Ex and I have and it's bad, you know, and he was not sure coding it He said it's gonna be tough and if things you won't be able to do that you'd like to do But you've got to hear at least is what I did and he sort of said you got to be tough and go out You can live a very worthwhile life and but it's you know, you've the Charles was very very he didn't talk much about his disability at all But I don't agree that he gave people advice or degree that he should model to kind of certain way of behavior It was really hard-headed and you know, unsentimental in a way I would say and what he did was amazing if you knew where you knew him and when you know He let that was gone a little if he knew you better They let you do a little favor in some respects something he couldn't handle, but he was extremely Proud he didn't want to be patronized. He didn't want to be sort of helped You know where they had to be he was grateful by people who quietly might have made an arrangement to make his life easier But he really wanted to be you know Not pitted in any way that was part of his real sense of dignity that he conveyed I think and one reason people were so impressed with him there people didn't know he was in a wheelchair. Yeah, didn't have it all the time. Yeah, yeah A lot of Rodmore attendees would say that I had no idea a guy who lives in my building works in all the states And he was telling me that he would see dr.
Crowdhammer with his customized van and noted noted that you know cuz dr. Crowdhammer drove himself many places saying that he almost ran him down a couple times in the garage because he thought he was You know hurrying to get to Nat's part he had to drive himself because of the vans I think I was gonna get out of the wheelchair into your passenger seat So people you know a lot of big shots get driven around watching or even not so big shots if you're going to TV They said a car for you, you know draws had to drive himself and I driving with Charles You did it I'm sure it was quite experience. I mean had this band He was one of the first I think I heard that remember one of the first of these kind of customized vans And allowed to go after collegiate to use his hands to pull some levers and that was it He couldn't use his legs at all hands weren't fully you know mobile or the way he had limited to use in those nonetheless He drove this van everywhere He did longest since his to New York and further to the next park I was dying after special report But from the office to Fox is downtown Washington This is not like you know easy drive and some suburban you know from one office park in the suburbs to another You're talking about the congested streets of Washington and crazy cab drivers and Charles just barreled along in this van That's not even a pretty good driver I mean I rode with him a number of times see all games and different things and He was much better drivers than I am is that right jeez our daughter went with him I can't really remember the circumstance. I wasn't there, but I don't know He gave her a ride somehow they were down town together family kind of thing and he said I want to ride I guess people are riding up to dividing off the way you do after to get somewhere else I think cuz I recall it was like a two-part occasion Maybe and Rebecca who was I think probably junior high at the time went with him and I still remember his head right as being Why did yeah, Charles was not against taking shortcuts occasionally?
Yeah, this one place on one street next to his building his office was above the palm on 19th Street And it's one of those little streets not like L or M one of the streets in Washington But a little kind of street and it was one way but it was much faster for him If he's going to Fox to go cut through that street the wrong way and it wasn't a busy that busy street So, you know 80% of the time there's no one coming the other way, but I can't say they were and Charles would just face them Yeah, this car was big and this truck was fan was big and so people would maybe back away and let him go Wrong way for at least a block We'll be back here in a minute on the daily standard podcast after a word from our sponsor If you ever shower or brush your teeth or try to make your hair look presentable I've got good news for you The Dollar Shave Club has a lot of stuff to help you out Dollar Shave Club Yes that Dollar Shave Club delivers everything you need to look feel and smell your best you name it shampoo conditioner body wash Toothpaste hair gel and even a wipe that'll leave your touch feeling tingly clean. I've been a Dollar Shave Club member myself actually for a Number of years. I'm a cheatscade I go with the the humble twin razor But and here's a great way to try a bunch of Dollar Shave Club's products for just five bucks You can get their daily essential starter kit it comes with body cleanser when wipe Charlie's their world famous shave butters They're best razor the six blade executive keep the blades coming for a few bucks more a month and add in shampoo Toothpaste, which is really good. I might add or anything else you might need for the bathroom check it all out at dollar Shave Club comm slash a weekly standard.
That's dollar shave club comm slash a weekly standard Well before we conclude this I think it may be his most recent and last contribution to the standard was decline is a choice Do you what do you guys think over his you know forty-some odd contributions? And obviously there's so many but what do you think might be the kind of standout thing that you'd encourage readers to read aside from all of it? No, that one that one is very strong that was a talk he gave in 2009 I think earlier in the above a year is trying to say you don't have to decline and it's not a matter of accommodating to decline The moment once America to be weaker That's a vision of how America how the world can be better and that's a huge mistake Charles was a strong advocate of American leadership and American power And and did not think and partly because of the reason straw I've read mentioned earlier that you know the world would be we'd seen what happens when America withdraws the world But it's not a pretty picture so that piece is very much worth reading I do think the piece from 1998 after Zion is really a very important Oh, it's philosophic piece about Judaism and Israel and and so forth You want a piece after cuz Barov lost in 1996 I think it was to deep blue which is sort of about what the future might look like with automated, you know Automation artificial intelligence how much we called it that back then which was stands up very well And that's he was he had been a science He wanted to be a scientist when he was young decided that there he wasn't gonna be a genius in physics So what was the point and so that he went into sort of politics and medicine in the back into psychiatry and then ended up back It's what was answered in back and in actual in journalism But there are lots of good pieces in the standard and the post and time magazine and then you were looking obviously a lot of them are collected in his Collection what was I called things that matter now? Yeah, we joked about having a second collection things that don't matter You know what he liked about the about the standard once he got a lot of feedback from his pieces I remember once telling me that when he would do these time essays and of course the Reagan doctrine that famous essay was in Time magazine.
He said get no feedback time magazine And of course he liked the feedback. You know the article said Charles would take on very tough subjects ones that Most people didn't remember a piece he did on torture and he had a very it wasn't just a condemnation or a flat support of torture It was an extremely I would never say nuanced about a Charles piece because he was his The points he made Roy is very sharp the but that But that piece was brave, you know one thing about about people coming to the becoming conservatives or no I guess people who have have become conservatives for a long time when they were in Washington, which is a liberal town they will sort of you know sort of soften their views and and so on and not be as conservative as They might really be Charles didn't do that and that's why I thought that United Nations piece was so interesting because he was not taking on strongly a position that many of the people he would meet in Washington would Congratulating for you know just another one point you mentioned quickly and passing you would never say nuances I mean Charles have incredibly crisp and direct and sharp edge You might say yeah gripping really writing style, but he's really proof and this is true of all the great writers of Orwell And I think others like him that you can be both very crisp and sharp as a writer, but also complex Yeah, it's just he didn't let it get all muddy and wandering around and with excessive qualifications in each sentence But I think that's very important as a writer Matters opposed to the substance one lesson that younger writers could really take from reading Charles Scott Well, Bill Fred. Thanks for joining me today on the daily standard podcast. Charlie Sykes will be recording live from beautiful Aspen Colorado tomorrow We hope you have liberals and yeah Well, yeah, Paul saw types.
We'll see if Charlie sounds like a like a very earnest concern level tomorrow, right? Yes, exactly