EPISODE · Jun 30, 2026 · 1H 28M
Rethinking Behaviour Support for PDA
from Behaviour Speak with Ben Reiman · host Ben Reiman
What happens when the very strategies behaviour analysts are taught to rely on become part of the problem? In this episode of Behaviour Speak, Ben Reiman welcomes BCBA Michelle Karren for a thoughtful discussion about PDA (commonly known as Pathological Demand Avoidance), autonomy-focused learners, and the challenges families face when traditional intervention approaches aren't working. Drawing on both professional expertise and lived experience as a parent of autistic children, Michelle shares how she became increasingly focused on supporting learners whose intense drive for autonomy, anxiety, and demand sensitivity require a fundamentally different approach. Together, Ben and Michelle explore: • What PDA is and how it differs from typical demand avoidance • The shift from "Pathological Demand Avoidance" toward more respectful language such as "Persistent Drive for Autonomy" and "autonomy-focused learners" • Why traditional behaviour support strategies can unintentionally increase stress and resistance • The role anxiety and nervous system regulation play in PDA profiles • Burnout experienced by learners, caregivers, and support teams • School challenges, masking, and the high rates of school-related stress among PDA learners • The importance of rapport, trust, assent, and shared control • Why role play and learner-led activities can be powerful tools for skill development • Supporting emotional regulation instead of focusing solely on compliance • Caregiver collaboration and helping families identify meaningful quality-of-life goals • The value of interdisciplinary collaboration and learning from professionals outside behaviour analysis • How behaviour analysts can remain evidence-informed while adapting their practice to meet individual learner needs Michelle challenges practitioners to remember that behaviour analysis is not defined by rigid procedures, but by careful observation, responsiveness, and a commitment to understanding what learners are communicating through their behaviour. Whether you're new to PDA or looking to deepen your understanding of autonomy-focused approaches, this episode offers practical insights and important reflections for anyone supporting neurodivergent learners. Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/Ble7W3G104w Continuing Education Credits (https://www.cbiconsultants.com/shop) BACB: 1.5 Learning IBAO: 1.5 ABA Topics QABA: 1.5 General CBA/CPD: 1.5 Learning Follow us! Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/behaviourspeak/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/behaviourspeak/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@behaviorspeak Contact Michelle Karren LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelle-karren-m-sc-bcba-433716273/ Related Behaviour Speak Episodes Episode 262, Motivational Interviewing for Behaviour Analysts with Dr. Monica Gilbert https://www.behaviourspeak.com/e/episode-261-motivational-interviewing-for-behaviour-analysts-with-dr-monica-gilbert/ Episode 179, Reforming ABA: A Framework for Behavior Analysts with Oswin Latimer and Hilary McClinton. https://www.behaviourspeak.com/e/episode-179-reforming-aba-a-framework-for-behavior-analysts/ Episode 34, Neurodiversity, ADHD, and ODD with Amelia Bowler https://www.behaviourspeak.com/e/episode-34-neurodiversity-adhd-and-odd-with-amelia-bowler-mads-bcba/
What this episode covers
What happens when the very strategies behaviour analysts are taught to rely on become part of the problem? In this episode of Behaviour Speak, Ben Reiman welcomes BCBA Michelle Karren for a thoughtful discussion about PDA (commonly known as Pathological Demand Avoidance), autonomy-focused learners, and the challenges families face when traditional intervention approaches aren't working. Drawing on both professional expertise and lived experience as a parent of autistic children, Michelle shares how she became increasingly focused on supporting learners whose intense drive for autonomy, anxiety, and demand sensitivity require a fundamentally different approach. Together, Ben and Michelle explore: • What PDA is and how it differs from typical demand avoidance• The shift from "Pathological Demand Avoidance" toward more respectful language such as "Persistent Drive for Autonomy" and "autonomy-focused learners"• Why traditional behaviour support strategies can unintentionally increase stress and resistance• The role anxiety and nervous system regulation play in PDA profiles• Burnout experienced by learners, caregivers, and support teams• School challenges, masking, and the high rates of school-related stress among PDA learners• The importance of rapport, trust, assent, and shared control• Why role play and learner-led activities can be powerful tools for skill development• Supporting emotional regulation instead of focusing solely on compliance• Caregiver collaboration and helping families identify meaningful quality-of-life goals• The value of interdisciplinary collaboration and learning from professionals outside behaviour analysis• How behaviour analysts can remain evidence-informed while adapting their practice to meet individual learner needs Michelle challenges practitioners to remember that behaviour analysis is not defined by rigid procedures, but by careful observation, responsiveness, and a commitment to understanding what learners are communicating through their behaviour. Whether you're new to PDA or looking to deepen your understanding of autonomy-focused approaches, this episode offers practical insights and important reflections for anyone supporting neurodivergent learners. Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/Ble7W3G104w Continuing Education Credits (https://www.cbiconsultants.com/shop) BACB: 1.5 LearningIBAO: 1.5 ABA TopicsQABA: 1.5 GeneralCBA/CPD: 1.5 Learning Follow us! Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/behaviourspeak/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/behaviourspeak/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@behaviorspeak Contact Michelle Karren LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelle-karren-m-sc-bcba-433716273/ Related Behaviour Speak Episodes Episode 262, Motivational Interviewing for Behaviour Analysts with Dr. Monica Gilbert https://www.behaviourspeak.com/e/episode-261-motivational-interviewing-for-behaviour-analysts-with-dr-monica-gilbert/ Episode 179, Reforming ABA: A Framework for Behavior Analysts with Oswin Latimer and Hilary McClinton. https://www.behaviourspeak.com/e/episode-179-reforming-aba-a-framework-for-behavior-analysts/ Episode 34, Neurodiversity, ADHD, and ODD with Amelia Bowler https://www.behaviourspeak.com/e/episode-34-neurodiversity-adhd-and-odd-with-amelia-bowler-mads-bcba/
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Rethinking Behaviour Support for PDA
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