I can't believe that nobody got the Iron Maiden joke. Okay, so for one, it was a little bit more my time. I have been listening to Iron Maiden since. Just, I guess, be able to get the older jokes.
But there was that one loser in the audience that got it. They're sure brother. They're sure brother. We gotta be able to turn that off for Spotify, because it takes a feed down.
So if you can't find us on Spotify. That's the reason, because we are pirates. Does that make us pirates? No.
No. We'll just be like maybe? No. No.
Just cheap. Well, you're not gonna pay the rights to have it run to the hills. I'll down your cast. That's gonna cost us thousands of dollars.
We could write it really nice later. No, I'm not gonna have it. I'm not gonna have it. I'm not Iron Maiden work that way.
So welcome back. This is Chad. Here with Jack. And we're back to the revelation follow up.
Revelation with the Rive. Yeah. Chapter seven. So this is a fun chapter, Jack.
I enjoyed this chapter, but I was thinking the other day. I was like, I'm really curious as to what you're going to ask me. Well, so first off, when you, I'm very dyslexic and I'm somewhat technologically impaired. So I was one of the Bible, I'm my computer to write these notes.
Did you do it again? So I jumped right into chapter nine. I was not ready for chapter nine. And I'm like, what the heck is going on?
And how did he get what he got Sunday from this? So yeah, it is again. It is some Bible shenanigans. And I think God was probably laughing at me at that moment in time.
Well, did you get caught up though? I did. I did get caught up. And I think I've got some good stuff.
Some very good stuff. I did like the rock picture you showed. And so when I was listening to the podcast, it took me a second to remember, because I relistened to the sermon. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I'm like, what photo was he talking about? Okay, he's talking about that well-placed rock. Yeah, yeah, I saw it before. I was like, man, that's a perfect kind of entry point into that conversation that we're having about this passage because it's just it looks.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you got to shift your point of view. It does. It means that that's exactly what it means.
It's shifting your point of view. So I don't. Okay. So first off, I went ahead and I read the whole chapter because you know, you talked a little bit outside of the verses and you preached on.
So what made you choose the second half of the chapter? Well, I chose the second half of the chapter really because the front half is important. But I mean, in some ways, Jack, you also have to look at time and how much time do you have and I don't want to like, I hate reading. I mean, if you come to Foundry for any length of time, you know that I much prefer to preach a bigger passage of scripture.
The nerdy word for that is perrificopy. And I just had to get kind of just focused on the one we're actually going to talk about. I don't remember. That sounds horrible.
This verse would have just been context. It would have given more places for people to rabbit trail or get confused or wonder why you can talk about that sort of thing. So it's kind of an editing decision that you have to make in the process. Right, because the verses went through four are kind of sketchy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a different, because I mean, you're at the point to where you're deep enough into revelation now where you're getting to the good stuff. Yeah. And then the rest of the verses between five through eight are all just numbers.
Yeah, it's just counting that. That's the thing is it really does. It just gives you context. The slide into this vision where John is kind of in theory for up until we get to where we were last Sunday in verse seven nine.
In theory, John has been in the present this whole time or in fact, he might have been, I don't know, maybe maybe the past because it really the story that Revelation tells the actions of chapter five. It's not like God waited for John to show up, which we know it's probably 30, 40, 50 years after the death of Jesus and resurrection for him to do this. Like John's actually because he's seeing into God's plan and God's plan is timeless. But it's after nine, it's been getting very deliberate that no, we're allowing you to see into the future.
Now, what's so funny is his future insight is not destruction or prediction of destruction, but is worship and is the redeemed church and its entirety. Okay. So you did talk about the, was it 144,000? Like, is that the frozen chosen?
Is that where that comes from? No, well, no, you'll hear that joke made. You know, you maybe can say that kind of there's a little bit of that 144,000 is interesting because like one of the things that we've not gotten into and where we will not get into is a whole millennial, not millennials in your generation, Jack, like the millennial speculation of revelation and that 144,000 is a number that's thrown around a lot. Jehovah's Witnesses believe a lot of interesting things about that number.
In some ways, it kind of makes them what they are now. And any, there's a lot of different in what we talked about earlier, how like the whole like left behind theology, the fancy pre-millennial dispensationalism, how it came out in 1850s and for the Civil War, it would not have stuck in theory. There's a lot of like weird utopian religions that came out of the American religious landscape in the mid 18th century, like 1840, 1850 in there, which is where you find the rise of Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness, the Seventh-day Adventist movement, and in many ways, Darby's pre-millennial dispensationalism can almost be situated inside of that short span of religious and cultural history. And so because of that, there's a lot of people love to, like I call it Bible math, love to speculate that that or like the now-jose that Motel of Mysteries book, like this is a great place where people try to put a toll on our head.
Yeah. I mean, everyone wants to put a toll on our head. But it's a multiple of 12, which is a biblical number. I mean, the tribes of Israel, but even what's so fun is if you get into it, they don't list out all the tribes of Israel.
They leave out, I think the tribe of Dan. Yeah. They leave out the tribe of Dan and insert the half tribe of Manasseh. So it's- I'm sorry, the tribe of Dan?
Yeah, there's a guy's name, Dan. Dan. Yeah, Dan. Dan.
Dan, who sit on his backboard to make a bigger head of the tribe? Well, I mean, there's multiple reasons why I'm like, Benjamin's in here and Benjamin's a horrible tribe. I mean, all sorts of stuff. They inserted and said this the half tribe of Manasseh, which Joseph, so, you know, if there's Joseph and his brothers and color of man, color of man, color of that kind of stuff, he has two sons.
I think it's Ephraim and Manasseh or his son's names. Yeah. And his father, Joseph's father gave a birthright to his son. He said, Joseph's birthright and said, I'm going to give these to your two sons instead.
And so I don't see a tribe of Joseph. The 12 tribes, it's a tribe of half tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh. And so instead as they took Dan out, so we've rapped a child that far enough. But it's this number that represents the redeemed Jewish people.
But then when it comes to this next vision, like the circles come around again, it's just getting bigger and bigger. It's just being 144,000. And that's a figurative number that's just loaded in biblical importance. That's never, I don't think that was ever supposed to be like an actual account.
Okay. So kind of one of my other questions are going to be that, you know, when we zoom out, we see the people like, rode in white. Yeah. And so when you look at both of them, you know, that represents the entirety.
So kind of like you talked about a few Sundays ago that the 24 elders represented, uh, Old Testament New Testament, prophets or whatever, uh, this represents the Old Testament Christians, but Jewish people and the. It represents the entirety of God's people. Okay. Okay.
So I'm going to tie this all up. What other, I guess, denominations, theological ideas were kind of influenced by this by this 144,000. I mean, it's just, it's, it's to be honest, I don't want to go open that door. It's just, it's just crazy stuff.
Yeah. And it's things that it's, it's reading way too much into it. It's assuming way too far in, I think to be healthy. So, um, let's see here.
So when we look at the, the, the crowd, the great multitude, um, they have palm branches. Yeah. What's the deal with palm branches? It's, that's a, he's thinking like a trident for entry.
That way the palm branches. Um, I mean, that's a, that's a sign of the Jewish people of, uh, it's kind of their waving flag around maybe. Okay. That's the best way to say it.
Like that's a, that's a pretty, it's a political statement. Um, but yes, East way to strab is like they're waving the flag around. Okay. I was not thinking, you know, like palm branches heaven, like somewhere goes to.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's like, it's a subversive political symbol. Um, it's, it's, it's a, it's a kind of describing, it's like they're waving their flag. Okay. So for someone, you know, roughly 2000 years ago reading this, a Jewish person special, be like, Oh, okay.
Yeah. I know what's up there. Yeah. So for what I guess is just, okay, I'm actually learning some stuff.
Like I'm getting it a little bit. Oh, after all these weeks back, you're getting. Yeah. I know it's not.
One little thing is like kind of sunk in palm branches. So the crowd, uh, they say the salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne and from the lamb. And then you have like the angels in the beach and their worshipping and then they say amen. And so amen is, it is true, right?
Yeah. So you're going to be in your face like you want to save it. Yeah. I'm going to save it.
Yeah. Cause then we got a whole sermon coming back in that question right there in a couple of weeks. Okay. So I mean, okay.
So amen is a statement that means true. Mm hmm. Like, cause I mean, that's a, there's a whole interesting thing. Cause like growing up, written in the church, you know, like you, you enter prayers, they men, but now I hear people that, that they don't enter prayers.
They men that they just keep it going, you know, it's like it's almost, you know, like why stop it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
So I mean, well, think about, and that's all I'm going to say, cause I mean, like we literally do almost have an entire message with that kind of idea. Okay. You think about who is saying amen and where are they saying amen and why can they say amen or why is it appropriate for them to say amen? Man, that was like a really big part of my questions.
Mm hmm. And then the order of who is speaking. Exactly. Exactly.
Man, now I got it like, okay, let's see here. Um, okay, we can kind of scoot through here a little bit. All right. Right.
Okay. Check. Check. I'll talk about that a little bit because what this is a thing.
And I've said this off of the series. No, we, this isn't about bullet points. It's really drawing pictures. Yeah.
And when you read scripture, especially know what we pass over these poetic parts and that's one thing. When we're reading scripture, we need everything's in there for a reason and it's intentional communication. And there's things that are saying stuff that if all we ever do is kind of dip in and dip out to like single verses, we are going to miss so much. And we're going to miss so much about the truth of who God is and the truth of who we are.
And like just that alone is an amazing example of when we really understand our faith and we make decisions to move past an infantile idea or just a pop in a Sunday morning. I was like, I heard before chapter day to get to double away. Like we're missing so much of the richness that's there. And we began building up just as I was having a conversation with your brother yesterday and talking about the Bible read through doing a one year Bible and then he said, Jack, tell me, you used to do a bunch and stuff like that 90 day Bible.
I three years, I spent my friend Aaron Mansfield got me on and I always do all my iPad. It's kind of one of my work, joking about my sack of dead iPads in here. I kind of want one to work again because I miss doing that because it was, I would read the Bible every 90 days, but you have to read like the newspaper. Yeah.
It's like you weren't like slowly doing this. It's like you kind of pop through like 20 chapters a morning or an afternoon or an evening or whenever you did it. And it took you two or three times through before you're like, okay, this is why I'm doing this because you're building up just as a layer of biblical memory. And that's the sort of thing.
It's like that's why it's so we can understand and see things like this. Yeah. So I miss out on it. Well, like I have the Bible on audiobook and it's like 94 hours is by far the longest book I own.
You ready for this? Yeah. I've got Johnny Cash reading the New Testament on CD. What?
Yeah. Oh, wow. For Revelation, I think I left it in the old white truck. Okay.
Put a hundred scare people. Oh my God. That would be awesome. Okay.
Sorry. Quick rabbit trail in my life. You know, what's called the rings, right? Yeah.
Yeah. So you know, Sauron, the white haired. Yeah. So like him or Monde, Sauron, him in real life.
I don't know his name. I recently passed away like a year ago. There is on YouTube an entire catalog of him reading Edgar Allan Poe. How about this creepy?
Oh, it's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. No, my mom got me Johnny Cash reading the New Testament CD.
I was actually curious to go. That's great. Oh man. I'm just going to get the Revelation verse on song.
Oh, no. He doesn't though. I need to find that one. That one.
It's in a CD case somewhere. Hopefully. Okay. Since we've read a little bit.
Yeah, just a little. Okay. So the question, you know, you talked about having someone coming up and asking you a question. I was like, who are these people?
But he obviously knew his name was. Yeah, he is. Like in your life, like how many times that happened? Just like, I mean, as far as like seminary and all that kind of stuff.
People come up and just like ask you a question and kind of want to talk about something. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's kind of standard.
Yeah. But he's the kind of person that walks up and, you know, he's got those loaded questions that he has the answer to. The difference I see is that this guy is asking a question to get you to notice something. Well, that's the thing is like at first you think it's that it's just like, oh, is this just is this elder just like showing off?
Because that's what sometimes I mean. You think about when you get caught up and you stop them with this one. You stop people do that to Jesus in the gospels all the time. But what this is, I think this is like, hey, do you realize what's going on?
Do you realize we've shifted a little bit? Do you realize that we've like pulled back the veil even more? And you're saying into like future now? I really think that's like you said.
He's just he's gauging John's awareness to how this vision is even changing. Yeah, I'm getting him to look deeper. Yeah. Yeah.
Like some translations refer to this elder as all cross revelation as the seer. The seer. Yeah. S E R.
But like it's like it's like this and that's what make people realize there's one of these elders that's interacting with John all the time that you see kind of pop in and out of the story. But I think he's just trying to make to John's like, hey, are you really aware of what's going on just now? Yeah. And the redeemed are they between the beasts and yeah, draw a picture man draw a picture.
It's like, yeah, and members beasts are they're providing a boundary protecting holiness. But you kind of look at it and make your drawing out and you realize like, no, this is like inside of the holiness. Yeah. Is that next time we're kind of stuff?
No. No. Yeah. Right on.
So yeah, that's what's on that was really interesting to me. And again, that kind of takes us back to what we can't talk about anymore. It'll be coming. You'll have a great when you save them all for a couple of weeks.
Okay. Let's go talk about tribulation and then the temple. Like, how did you kind of tie those two things together? Well, so what we have is just word that we get the term tribulation from.
It's the lips and it's really what I just did was looking at it. And at first, like we read new about standard this time, not new living translation for a couple of reasons, but one of the things that said in there, I said, everyone who's come out of the great ordeal and you look at that term and I went into it. I'm not joking. I told John, wait from this.
I'm saying, ah, for the first time I went into this. Okay. Let me look at the biblical idea of tribulation. So a couple of things.
Number one, it's not a formal title. So great. It's just simply functioning as an adjective in that phrase. And it's the word ordeal, the lips.
So if you go in and you just take this kind of normal word that we see that's what's functioning at least. And I just, I ran a search just saying, okay, let's see where this word is being used in scripture and it how's it being used in scripture and other places. So like I searched the exact inflection and what that just means is like literally the exact word that's being used here. And you see in both Matthew and in Mark, this parable of the sower that were you, you mean he's got his scatters, he's in different places.
And Mark, check her for I really should have talked about this on Sunday. We didn't have the time trying to really stick in like 22 minutes and stuff there. And this is what says, and these are the ones that are selling rocky ground when they hear the word, they immediately receive it with joy, but they have no root and endure only for a while. Then when trouble and that's the lips is when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word they may be fall away.
So if you look at this use of the word all throughout scripture, what we end up finding is that with the most part is all just talking about personal trouble, like just the crack that we have in life. Sometimes it shows up in another way, the Little Apocalypse, which is Matthew, and it's also important to mark whatever's personal trouble. Just distinctly across the place and then this Little Apocalypse, it's in Matthew 17, maybe. Little Apocalypse in Big China.
Yeah, Little Apocalypse in Big China, yes. Glad you're never said. But if that's there and what you see is if you look at the headings of that and if you zoom out of those chapters you realize this is very specifically about the destruction of the temple. And that's what's going on and that's what's important about those passages, this whole zoom out thing is, you see the trend that's coming here?
We're dealing with a literature style that we're not used to and it's a 2,000 year old way of communicating certain things in certain ways. It's like us going back and watching like silent movies. Yes. And we don't get the story.
Why is there a person playing piano? I mean, it's just we wind up being sped up. We don't get the communication style. So we have to go down deep into it.
And then it comes into this temple thing, the destruction of the temple, what these Little Pocklips are actually about is carrying over into what John's seeing this vision for when his God said he will shelter them. This whole ideal shelter event, John 114, the word became flesh, might as well among them. I guess where shelter is inside of this temple family of words. And he says, no, the presence of God will unfold of them.
And Jesus, when so many times we have these really messed up ideas about revelation and about the end and about those sorts of things. And what we end up doing inside of that is we're denying the power, the resurrection, because we keep thinking something better needs to happen. Hmm. Yeah, that's very interesting.
I never thought about like that. Yeah. Yeah. So it's just that's why I guess assuming out is so important.
So it's a better in my mind. It's a better bigger picture. And in no way does it mean the other stuff can't happen. Because I'm not going to say that.
But if we look into scripture and allow scripture to speak for itself and allow revelation of functions, a normal book, I believe these are the conclusions that we come to by just looking what scripture says. So I mean, like has all this stuff is like kind of actually already happens in a sense. You kind of have that thing of, and exactly. It's like, yeah, I mean, like the most powerful event in human history ever is a resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Yeah. And what we're waiting for is the coming full presence of Jesus in this world in Latin, where the eschitology study of last things, but the eschiton is academic term for this final enthronement of Jesus in this world, what we call heaven. And we'll get to that like in Revelation 21. Okay.
I'd like the word eschiton. I know you do. That's a good word. Yes, it's a good word.
It makes you sound really smart when you use it. It's like, I mean, I'm still under like, I have a running, like I'm working on a theory right now, or kind of like a theological standpoint that like all the fancy words in the Bible are intentionally sounding like medical terms. They're all that. Yeah.
I mean, I think that was God because you know, he's healing the world. They're all that. Yeah. Yeah.
Oh, man. Oh, you're so funny. I know. I'm going to be amazing.
Oh, okay. Okay. Let's move on from that. Okay.
Let's move on from that. You sent me that number one rule of making make every plan no matter how bad they are. Yes. Yes.
Okay. So it's good to have the personal tribulations. Oh, so it talks about like God wiping away the tears and that's for what we have done, but not for what has happened to us. I thought that was pretty interesting.
Yeah. It's awareness. And that's the thing is, I mean, if you look into what tears, the same thing you what like the Old Testament provides us to vocabulary and revelation in the Old Testament tears are an awareness piece. It's an awareness.
I have sinned. I have been offered grace. It's an awareness thing. That's what tears are.
It's a different word for anguish for that action. Okay. So like you'd be anguishing over like, oh my God, things are so bad. I'm crying as a result of that.
There's a completely different word and concept inside of that and that's not what's being used in revelation. Well, yeah. No, but I knew that from what you talked about in the sermon, but I thought was just really interesting. Yeah.
Because you would think when you finally get to God and you've been through this relation, you're like, Oh, thank you. I am through all of this stuff. It was bad. I was boiled and oil, but no, it's not that.
It's like, I did all of these things to you. All these transgressions towards you and I'm sorry. Yeah. It's a very different kind of awareness.
Yeah. So I mean, does that say like arson against him is greater than anything that can happen to us? I think you're getting I think that's not that's not the point here. It's not that somebody says, I'm aware of why I should not be here.
Yeah. But because of you, I am here, salvation belongs to you and to the lamb. Yeah. So God is just so God that.
Yeah. Thanks to everything. Yeah. Cool.
Right. Dude. We're watching the tutorials. Okay.
Um, okay. So towards the end here, you talked about what have we been saved? What have we been saved from? Yeah.
Um, first off, where did you come up with this series of questions? Was it just? It's just thinking about it a bunch. I mean, just reading this and thinking about this awareness piece.
Yeah. It's like, what happens when we get to that line? What does it mean to truly contemplate each one of us owning that phrase salvation belongs to our God and to the lamb? What does it mean for us to engage that idea with us being aware of our sins?
So I mean, that's what this kind of line of questions came from right there. Just think about that for a few days. Okay. And you said that you really have a gun's rooster do?
You can't see anymore. Okay. I did. I did.
I gave myself a gun's rooster do not 13 year old. That's awesome. For a long time, you can still see a, uh, like the line over the G. Yeah.
But yeah. So I did have a gun's rooster's present tattoo for like maybe 15 years. Wow. Maybe 20.
So I mean, not to like brag on my preacher, but my preacher used to have a homemade gun's rooster's tattoo. Yeah. I straight up a prison tattoo. I gave myself in 7th grade.
That's fantastic. Yeah. So like when you ask that question and when you read it, um, like, if I look at my life, I want to be a pilot. Yeah.
But let's see how that works out. And then I did it. And then I was like, yeah, no, no, no. This ain't good because like, I mean, as you said, like I would have been dead.
Yeah. I mean, I would have been on some drugs. I like coffee way too much not to be on uppers. And, uh, we talk about the lifestyle stuff and we talked about that before.
Yeah. That's things like, there's this idea at Jamie Smith. I think we talked about it in a book a few weeks ago that you become a key worship, but it has this idea of the primary view of human flourishing. And you know, so many times we have to realize that like, I know for me, the primary view of human flourishing, I held for years, like we joked about the homie guns and rooster's tattoo.
Like that was being ruined. And I was like 22 or 23. It was like, okay, what is it going to take for this to be my life? And even there's even a point in time to where that to a point that had been made holy, but it was still driving me away.
It was just very, very unhealthy. And something to say that kind of what is Jesus, say this for me, I can identify what that life would have been like and where I would have gotten to on my own inside of that. And I was still at points in times trying to, like I'm in a joke, a long time, I was touring on the road with a worship band doing production. Like we made the joke that like we'd go to jobs and I'd pull out of the van and they're going to go to a clean church voice.
And I was a little skinnier back then. I'm like crazy long hair, like no shirt on with the denim vest. Like I mean, I got a big knife on my back. I mean, it's like this very much like this was the subculture identified with and where I was.
There's nothing matter with that. But it's like man, that was me trying to still continue to baptize this idea of myself. And so it runs the game. It's not just like, oh, I was a really bad horrible person.
I had a meth habit and this happens. No, where have you tried to be your own center and where has Jesus saved you and taken you from that when you're becoming aware of what you're doing and you're willing to follow him instead? Dad, go on. Yeah.
Yeah, no, I've listened to that sermon like three times and that's just now really sinking in. Yeah, yeah. We have to personalize this. If we don't personalize it, we're probably not going to get it.
So I just kind of wrote down like all those questions there towards the end. I figured we'd kind of go through them if you wanted. Yeah, we can. I mean, they're kind of it's.
Well, I mean, what was cool is what's it got to be that you could do for yourself? You got me through college, bro. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, we realize that we're even in charge of our lives. Yeah. That's how we think of that situation we can say, you know, salvation belongs to our God and to the land.
Just to be a team of awareness, where has sin falsely led us as a question you kind of brought up or kind of made a statement about? Yeah. So like how do we guard against that? And how do we recognize we're in those areas?
We have to be aware of ourselves. We have to be aware of what it looks like and sounds like when we're doing our thing. Like the whole, you do you thing? Mm hmm.
Could be pretty dangerous. Okay. Right on. Well, that is all of my questions.
Awesome. Well, this is a fun chapter. I was looking forward to this chapter. But the best is yet to come.
Yeah. I'm really mad that I had to skip over some stuff. It'll be coming, Jack. Well, it's Jack, Jack.
We'll see you on Sunday not this Sunday. I'm not gonna be here this Sunday. Sean, we'll be back. We'll be back in August.
I'm gonna say more chat with more chat with more chat. I'll be working at LSA. We'll be working at LSA. We'll be doing this.
We'll be doing this. Okay. Well, it's Chad and Jack right here and we will see you all later. All in.
Make sure you share with your friends. We enjoy the conversations. Thanks for being part of Foundry Casts. Adios.