Roy Swan of Ford Foundation on His New Book Positive Sum and Fixing Zero-Sum Capitalism

Roy Swan, Head of Mission Investing at the Ford Foundation, joins Georges Dyer to talk about his new book, Positive Sum: How Zero Sum Thinking Broke Capitalism and How We Can Fix It. Drawing on his experience running Ford Foundation's mission-related investing program, Roy makes the case for positive-sum capital allocation, not as a values position, but as a measurable efficiency argument. For endowment leaders, CIOs, and trustees weighing how fiduciary duty applies in a more complex world, this conversation grounds the debate in economic theory, historical precedent, and portfolio-level evidence rather than advocacy. In this episode, Roy and Georges discuss: The research behind the $50 trillion figure — economic research Roy cites on lost economic output from exclusionary, zero-sum systems, plus supporting data from Citigroup and MIT Sloan on worker disengagement The mathematical origins of zero-sum and positive-sum thinking (von Neumann and Nash) and why the distinction matters for capital allocation How Ford Foundation's mission-related investing program is structured across themes like affordable housing, financial inclusion, and responsible technology Why fiduciary duty and positive externalities are increasingly inseparable for foundations, pensions, and sovereign wealth funds This conversation is intended to inform institutional decision-making and does not constitute investment advice. Listeners should consult a qualified professional before making investment decisions. --   Resources mentioned in this episode: IEN 2026 Annual Forum 📅 November 18–20, 2026 📍 University of Toronto, ON 🔗 https://www.zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2026-annual-forum Roy Swan’s Book Positive Sum: How Zero Sum Thinking Broke Capitalism and How We Can Fix It: https://a.co/d/046uE19t RAND Corporation, Trends in Income From 1975 to 2018 (Carter C. Price & Kathryn A. Edwards) → https://www.rand.org/pubs/working_papers/WRA516-1.html  Citigroup research on the cost of racial and economic inequality (est. $16 trillion, ~2000–2020) https://www.citigroup.com/global/insights/closing-the-racial-inequality-gaps-20200922 MIT Sloan / Good Jobs Institute research on worker engagement and its cost to the economy (Prof. Zeynep Ton) https://goodjobsinstitute.org/ --   General Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction 02:17 Why Foundations Separate Endowment from Mission 08:39 Sponsor: IEN 2026 Annual Forum 09:11 The Mathematical Roots of Zero-Sum vs. Positive-Sum Thinking 13:36 Milton Friedman and Why Nations Fail: Rethinking Economic Orthodoxy 23:07 The $50 Trillion Cost of Zero-Sum Thinking, Explained 26:32 Worker Engagement, Culture, and the KKR Proof Point 28:47 Inside Ford Foundation's Mission-Related Investing Portfolio 41:37 Who Needs to Lead the Shift to Positive-Sum Capital 52:27 Roy's Vision for the Future of Finance