I'm Brian Myers. I'm Mike Ritalik. I'm Becky Hidayad. And this is Alpellis, a podcast featuring tips for Adteachers.
We are your agricultural education resource across the web, sharing research-based tips and tackling the tough questions facing agriculture teachers every day. Welcome back, Adteachers here by The Alpellis. This is Brian Myers joined by the fantastic Becky Hidayad. And today we are sifting through some seriously fresh findings that you won't want to miss.
Our focus supervises agricultural experiences the famous SAE. And so how can we move from the maybe later to the major growth in your classroom? Remember what really makes for student success when that SAE logbook comes out? Or if there was a secret sauce to getting students to log hours without all the eye rolls?
Well, you're not alone in this bar and question. So to shell out the best kernels of wisdom, straight from the research, we've got the trail braising author of a brand new study with us. So let's hand the mic to our special guest. Please let everyone know who we have here by the Alpellis today.
Hello everyone. My name is Dr. Tiffany Marzellino, newly minted from Michigan State University. Still has a new PhD smell.
Oh, yeah. So this is false. You can tell she's a new PhD. She's still smiling.
She's still smiling. So this is joining the University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign as an assistant professor. And before getting my PhD, I taught for three years in Michigan. And this study was actually inspired by me wondering if I was doing a good enough job with SAEs in my own classroom.
So these are some nuggets of wisdom derived from other Michigan teachers outstanding. So tell us a little bit about what kind of inspired you to do this work. And where is this taking you at? What are some of the key points you want to share with us today?
Yeah, absolutely. So this definitely was spring-borne from this idea of like what is a successful SAE. and as an early career teacher, am I doing it right? Is there even a right that's happening when we're looking at implementing SAEs in our classrooms?
So one of the biggest things that I was wondering was where teachers were experiencing growth in their classrooms or were they seeing more growth in students in FFA or was it SAE? So really where was that growth happening? And some of the key takeaways that I wanted to share were some of the things that teachers who reported more growth in their students to SAEs were grading their SAE. So having that required as a grade, they provided class time for their students to log their hours and they had that more digital approach where their students had their phones with them in the field or during their SAE experiences and they were logging hours from their phones.
So the other cool thing that we saw was that our teachers who were strongly encouraging their students to have SAEs, we're seeing more student growth attributed to SAEs. So that to me kind of speaks to this idea that if we're passionate about something, then we want to see student growth there. We're going to make that happen as educators. So those are some big takeaways I wanted to share.
That's awesome. And I think as you're talking one of the things I want to just pause before we get into some of the nitty-gritty, when you talk about student growth, what are we getting at? Yeah, so we left that open for a teacher interpretation. So as teachers, we see growth in a variety of different ways.
We see students developing career skills. We see them developing friendships. We see them growing as people, maybe in character. So this interpretation of growth is really up to the teacher.
So how are you thinking about growth? And we kind of posit that a lot of our teachers were thinking about it in that kind of holistic sense of growth without that definition there. Well, I think that as a situation we're talking about SAE, I think helps us get out a little bit more of the power of what can happen. We talked a couple other episodes of the season about the opportunities to individualize things and the ways for students to just meet that component of the three circle model where they are.
And so when you have kind of, and I think that's, it's a really important thing is we head into this conversation to keep in mind this open idea of growth in terms of, where's that student at? What does that student need? How do all these different students come to my class regardless of where they're at? What is their individual opportunity to grow based on where they are?
You know, so it kind of built up on that as you look. You know, I was really intrigued by your idea about recording things on your phones and using that technology in there. You know, SAE is one of these really longstanding things, some would see SAE as being very, very traditional part of school-based ag ed, but you found a way that if you're using their phones to track these hours. So talk about why you think that added to the impact on the students and then maybe give us a few hints on how do we then do it?
So it's kind of a why we do it and then how do we do it? Yeah, absolutely. So our teachers, now I want to clarify one thing first too. We had a lot more teachers using laptops and Chromebooks and other electronic devices.
And in Michigan, we all have access to AET too. So we don't have a lot of folks doing paper and pencil. But what really happens, I think, with the phone and why there's a lot of power in it, is that students can pull it out in journal wherever they're at. So I think that that's really helpful for them because it isn't like, okay, we're taking this time in classroom, please get on there and log it, and students are on their Chromebooks, playing a snake game and you can't always get around and then you can just get in the moment, can just help students stay on top of that while they're doing it.
Maybe there's more of an instinctive and I've had a conversation with another Michigan teacher too, like he just struggles to get students to log their hours in AET. Like how do I get my students to do their AET journals? And I think that portability of the phone and like, okay, you have it saved on your phone and it looks like an app. I don't think there is an official app, but for the teachers who may be less tech savvy, there's a way that you can kind of bookmark a web page on your students phone and it looks like an app.
So they can click on it, go right in there, click on the button that says journal and then it's really quick. Boom, I'm in, I'm doing my journal and it's working. I think that it's simple, students can follow along and that's helpful and it's portable. So having that mobile phone with them and logging from that phone makes it more accessible no matter where you are.
So I think those are really like the secrets and the sauce there for teachers using phones. It's interesting too. And again, it just kind of goes beyond maybe a little bit what we talked about here, but that idea of yes, it's practical, that you're getting the logging done, never one just because it's there. But you can use all that growth happening and I'm wondering is it because of that recency, they're able to kind of connect and capture that stuff, write that in there so they don't lose it.
So not only is it a benefit practically by it actually is there for the book and the records and all the things there, but actually as you show, growth and age and their learning. And so maybe there's that timing factor that is a big piece of it as well. So maybe there's other ways that we can use that timing issue to think about how do we best get, you know, make it take advantage of all the things that we do in our school-based, I get classroom. Yeah, absolutely.
And I think that makes me think of like, SAE for all two in our school-based SAEs, where, you know, we're out having this experience with the sows or the chickens or the animals in the barn. And, you know, as a teacher, you're telling students something that resonates with them. And if they do their journal soon after, maybe they're able to document that and then they're forging the connections in the brain between what they're doing and that work and the practical experience. And I definitely think that timing and the recency and relevancy of it all kind of comes together when you're using that phone as a device too.
Well, it helps, I think kind of contextualize why you have alluded to this. How do I get students to do this? And I don't necessarily think that this motivates students in the moment, but thinking about how do we help students see their growth and what I actually did, right after I did it compared to what I think I did, even a couple hours later from when I did it, like that record of growth looks a lot different if I'm recording in the moment and can look back on what I was doing in that moment, rather than trying to think about, oh, shoot, it's the end of the, what did I do this week? And I think there's a tendency probably to kind of minimize what I did over the scope of the week because I just need to put something in this journal.
But if I'm doing this every day, and I think we sometimes miss the power of a journal of it just, it's what was happening right then, not like, not this figure, just like, put jot things down. Yeah, and you know, I kind of go back to it with another one you're finding, you're talking about that, you found that grading the SAE also enhanced growth in the students. So, you know, from your experience or insight, kind of share, how do they do this grading? And then I want to have some follow up conversations about both of this grading and recency thing, like, maybe those are symptoms rather than the actual cause.
Maybe it's the philosophy of the importance of SAE that led to the growth. And the fact that if I think SAEs are important, then I give them the tools to actually record things and do the stuff, and I also then hold them accountable by holding grading, and that's a driver, that sort of thing. So, I love your thoughts on that. Yeah, absolutely.
So, we have teachers doing grading in a variety of different ways. So, one of the ways that I've seen is requiring a certain number of hours for students in the supervisor of cultural experiences, and that like 15 a semester or something like that, and that's 15% of your grades. So, that's one way the teachers do it. And I think that attributing, well, telling students, hey, you're gonna get a grade for this, can sometimes motivate some of the ones who may be more reluctant to engage in supervisor of cultural experiences to have a little more push to achieve it because now it's tied to your grade.
And I know that some others are also grading like SAE for all, like are you doing your journals, things like that. So, the grading style looks different based on the teacher's preferences, but I think that a big reason why we're seeing more growth is just because students have that incentive in that way, like that letter grade incentive, more often than not, to continue to engage in these experiences. But if you have a teacher who's super passionate and students who find that they are growing and doing cool things through their SAE, I don't necessarily think you need the grade. We decide more teachers attributing growth to students when they were grading it.
So, we did have a pretty even split there, but I do think that grade often acts as kind of an incentive more than like that driving passion behind, you should have an SAE and this is why. Well, it's kind of one of those things we think about, do we entice or do we do it, use a club to kind of force people to do it? And again, the grade could be a club for those that are dragging their feet because they're gonna have to do it. But also, I also think that what's important gets measured and as a teacher, I think we need to be thinking about, we really do communicate to our students what we think is important by putting a grade on it.
That's kind of our currency that we're able to talk about. And I'm not saying grade everything, but I think it's about being thoughtful on, if you think SAE is important and you want students to do a good job with you. Yes, there's other incentives, but you're communicating and it doesn't, I don't think it has to be a huge portion of the grade either, but you're at least saying, this is important, it's not like something extra that you want them to do. I think also thinking about, and I'd be curious, Tiffany, if you saw what were some of the more unique grading models for SAE, because when we talk about what's important about SAE, is that I do the hours and that I do the logging, and Brian talked to about where the spits in as part of my class.
And so, what are some of the other ways we can think about in terms of how we integrated in our class, how we grade it, how we think about communicating and actually getting out of that SAE? Yeah, what are some of those other structural things in the classroom that we can be thinking about in terms of how we kind of maximize what we're doing with SAE? Yeah, so that's a wonderful question. And I think that I've encountered some different approaches in this, but the one that really stood out to me was a dedicated day of the week to SAEs and working on SAEs in classes.
Because I think a lot of times teachers are interfacing the most with their students in the classroom in the FFA portion, because it's a supervised agricultural experience, you're not always there for it. So bringing that component, which is often outside of the classroom into the classroom and being in that space with students, kind of hammers home, hey, this is important and uncommitted to this and I want you all to see the value. And also we have time to do this now. So I think that there's some really cool things happening with those dedicated days.
And that isn't necessarily a full-class period. If you have 15 minutes, 75, whatever your schedule looks like, it could be just the first 15 minutes of Friday, we're gonna sit in the space together, share the cool things that we're doing, communicate that we value this together and showcase these awesome things you're doing, and this is our time to do it. And then also get in your journal and do your AET things. So I think there's a really cool combination that happens there when teachers kind of dedicate that time in the classroom to SAEs and showcasing that with students.
A lot about the great things that happen and the great results that do there, but there are challenges. It's not all such a lot of pop-ups as we say. So what did you find of some of the challenges that were there and how did teachers address those? Yeah, so we had a lot of barriers that teachers were bringing up too as they're trying to get students to engage with SAEs.
And a big one was time constraints because our students are involved in like everything these days. So how do you make time for another important thing and have students see that as another important thing as well? And then a close runner up to that was also financials and that financial component, because when we are doing SAE for all in the classroom, maybe that financial component isn't as big, but some chapters also don't have the financials to be able to support SAE for all in the same way as some others might. So if you have a barn in a greenhouse and funding for that, it's gonna be a little different that maybe had a newer program or a program with more limited space.
So those financials on the student and the chapter side can really play into it too. And then the next one that was really big was also transportation. So for doing things that are offsite, if we're having students move around to different things and they aren't able to drive their own car yet, maybe they don't have their license, maybe their younger students, maybe their families are less socioeconomically well off. There's some other issues there too.
So there are a lot of barriers that teachers have to overcome when they're trying to have these super growth heavy SAE implementation. And I think some of that requires a little creativity to get around and other things are a little more concrete that are harder to get around like student motivation too, because if you can't get the students interested in it, then you have that other barrier there too. And that was our fourth largest barrier. So how is it that we get you interested?
And then if you're interested, how do we overcome these other barriers too? Because as you said, it isn't all sunshine and lollipops, like there's a lot of real world things that are getting in the way for teachers who want these and it's just harder to make it happen, then you would hope. And I think that maybe brings us back to the growth a little bit where we say, okay, we've got some of these barriers. We want the student growth to happen.
And what does SAE look like? Like what are those core things that we really need to be thinking about that? I can capitalize on this growth regardless of the time constraint, regardless of the financial situation, regardless of the student's transportation, maybe even regardless of student grade, like we've talked a couple of episodes about middle schoolers this season, how do we really think about what are those really core things that I can do regardless of the barriers in my program? Yeah, absolutely.
And our teachers really hammered home the idea that it's student driven. So that's a use or something that students want to do. They're directing it, they're planning it, they're involved. And I think that goes hand in hand to the students, because when they have that kind of oversight, they're able to feel like this is a real thing that I'm doing and I'm making a difference here.
And this is really important to me. And I think along with that, students can also tangibly see developing skills. And that's another way that our teacher said that students were growing was like those hands on practical things that students were learning along the way. And that isn't just like, you know, I know how to cast rate piglets now.
It could also be, I know how to be organized, I know how to keep records, I know how to show up on time. And all of those other really cool soft skills that we see developing through having that responsibility and programs. So those are some big ones that our teachers pointed out being student driven, developing skills and engaging students that made an SAE successful and contributed more to student growth. Well, I think that you're talking that just really reminds me that, you know, SAE is really special, Adgedge language.
That is our language that is so different. You go to your local school and you say that to other teachers or the administrators are looking at you like, they got no idea what they're talking about. But when you're mentioning tracking these skills, I mean, that is so much part of general CTE and being able to really help students capture what skills they have and be able to communicate that, which is so important right now in workforce development. And I think that's important for Ad teachers as we are communicating with our CTE directors, with other folks, employers in there, look at the language and making sure that we're using terms folks understand that, you know, yes, SAE has a special kind of framing to it, but it does translate into what we're really talking about from workforce development and helping students know that when it comes time to write this cover letter or to go interview for a job, talk about these are the skills I have and here's how I documented the skills that I have to show them that I'm not just like every other, you know, students who graduated.
I think that's important for us to be thinking about as well. Well, I mean, this has been a great conversation, really appreciate, you know, the idea that, you know, SAE has been around for a while, but we talk about this really important part. I think I think your work really builds upon this idea. Over the last several years, like you mentioned SAE for all and how do we really manage this in our classroom to make this work?
You've documented the growth that this has where students are not just because we think it's a thing to do because we've always been doing it. It really is benefiting our students. You've done, you've provided some great tips here for us all. You've talked about great strategies and philosophy about why we do this.
Ag teachers try some of these things, be thinking about being intentional about what you are communicating to your students about what's important in your program and how to really show that SAE does build those real world life skills that we want our students to be able to have. Well, that's all for today's Alpilot. Thank you so much for joining us today, learning all these tips and make sure you tune in next time to see what's happening here by the Alpilot. You hope you've enjoyed this episode of Alpilots.
Check out our website for more information on this topic and to learn more about our guests. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram to stay connected and be sure to subscribe to our podcast so you'll never miss an episode. For Mike and Becky, this is Brian here by the Alpilots. Saying thank you and we look forward to seeing you again on another episode of Alpilots, tips for Ag teachers.