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Welcome to the new books network. Hello. Welcome to the new books in Jewish Studies podcast. I am your host today, Ari Barbellat, and it is my humbled blessing to be in dialogue with Dr.
Sarah Kopplic. She is the director of the Erin David Bram Ilel House at the University of New Mexico. We are here to discuss her book, A Political and Economic History of the Jews of Afghanistan, published by Brill Publishers 2015. Sarah, I'm amazingly lucky and astoundedly grateful to have you as my guest today.
Oh, Ari, thank you so much. It's really kind of you. Isn't it like that? I know what about your unwell-minded intro.
Thank you. So, again, can you kindly tell us about yourself? Where did you grow up? What formative events in your life inspired your interest in this topic?
Where does the history of the Jews of Afghanistan fit in your life story? Well, it's very kind of you. I'm water-raised in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Really, it became interesting in the history.
And a child actually attending religious wealth in the fifth grade, we learned about being positioned from a woman who had returned to Judaism, who had made her family, who had maintained secret Jewish practices in New Mexico for generations. And so she shared a lot of her customs with us. And then in the ninth grade, we learned a lot about the Holocaust. And we had survivors who would speak to our class.
And from that, starting at the Cami Tristan District. And then I studied Middle East-Trickets Street in college. And I learned Hebrew and Arabic. And then I wanted to continue education.
And I eventually ended up at the school where we were in the African Studies at the University of London, where I completed a master's degree in Central Asian Studies. And I studied the Bocorn Jew. And I studied women's religiosity as they were returning, as they were leaving, you know, as the W.U. in Crumbold.
And there was delayed deliberation in Israel. Women started to become interested in reviving their religious experience. So I studied that first. And then I wanted to continue that.
But there were no sources that meant it. But there was a lot of information about the Afghan Jewish history. So I kind of fell into the archives. And I started to read about what happened to this young woman in 1915 to be.
Who was abducted from her family. And it was really a compelling story. And I just put my head down on the table and I cried. And I knew that this really story that had never been told in Western sources before, the history of the Afghan Jewish people.
And so from the story told what it really, really needed this much larger history of very small people, but a political experience, pretty dramatic events in the 20th century and before. But nobody really knew about it. And so that's what I decided to study. There you go.
What are the primary themes in this book? What message does this book convey? What story does your book tell? Nice question.
Thank you. So this is the story. It's kind of micro-less streams then because the Afghan Jewish community in the 20th century met with never more than 20,000 people. I mean, excuse me, 5,000 people.
And so because it was so small and yet they experienced so many different aspects of history between Stalinism and communism and collective invasion and influences of that on Afghanistan and World War II and Nazi influence and nationalist influence and anti-Semitism and finalism. It's an extraordinary sort of collitus micro-cotton of what happened to Jewish people in the 20th century, particularly when the United States was living. And so here that's kind of what I talk about. I also provide in telling the story of Jewish people.
We also have kind of an illumination on the economic history of Afghanistan in the middle of the 20th century. And that's interesting. It's kind of like the Cairo-Ganesan, you know, because the Cairo-Ganesan, it tells a Jewish story, right? And it also tells about a thousand-year history, economic history of the Eastern Mediterranean.
And the same way here, because of Jews were minorities with specific economic role. They were in Afghanistan, a larger story of what happened to many different minorities. And the larger winds of economic change in the whole society and both countries were also in the region. I hope so for people who are interested in Jewish history, or others who are interested in economic history in the 20th century, I hope we can help you know immediately.
What would you like listeners to get out of her dialogue today? Well, I think sometimes something that might seem really esoteric actually in the... And that's also... That might be something that your listeners might find in interest.
That the themes of these small people, the small ancient people, and what happened to them, also are experiences that so many others share the possible with nothing. You might be of interest. But Afghanistan has a very painful, well, recent tragic history. And yet part of the story may offer some sort of hope.
Or what is possible. And I hope that things may get better while the country and the future are facing so many terrible difficulties. Why has Afghan Jewry been understudied? It's silly because it's very small people.
You know, at its height there were about 5,000 individuals in Afghanistan. And that includes the Buhar and refugees, refugees from Central Central Asia. And so I think it was overlooked of course, because that such a small number can't really generate a larger history. Right.
But it was preserved. And I slowed back the... That's the one, the other thing. That we do have the correct links that help us.
Okay. And we have enough right crumbs that the story is able to be the conscriptive. And that's right. How did the belief in Pashtun tribes' descent from ancient Israelites' tribes impact Afghan and Pashtun policies toward Jews?
That's really interesting. So Pashtun people' tribes in what is now Afghanistan, I believe that they are descended from the lost tribe of Israel. And there may be some customs that may have been Jewish like, they wear something like a Tali. There's a very elaborate code of trial of the behavior.
But we really don't know. You know, did the Pashtun originate from Jewish tribes? I'm not a genetic genealogist. I'm not a researcher in that field.
So what I've been as a historian, what I do know is that these beliefs could be very protective. So whenever we found a ruler who treated the Jewish community well, whether it was a people-log from 1919, or actually from 1909 to 1919, or among a lot, or later on, in the Bauchishal, all of them referenced their ancient Jews. And so, and used that, the ideas were used as the premise of why modern Jews should be protective. And similarly, with individuals, there were some individual police officers who stopped riots in the mid 1930s and 40s, and they also knew upon those beliefs.
And so, again, that was a way that was protected for the Jewish community. And a way of showing those ties between ethnicities and religions, of winding kind of this larger humanity, a larger world of humanity, and in that way it was protecting. Now, that has been kind of interesting. You alluded to three figures that I'd like to perhaps ask you more about each one of them.
Maybe I'll start with Habibullah, who was Habibullah Al-Rahman. For listeners who might not be familiar with Afghan history, can you tell us about him, what reforms did he implement in Afghanistan, what relations did he have with Afghan Jews? So, Habibullah was actually Israeli in 1901 and 1919. And he was a son of Abir Rahman Khan, who was an extraordinary ruler.
We were from 1880s to 1981. We were destroyed a lot of previous inter-ethnic harmony, more Afghanistan, and I think that's what happened to Afghanistan, I enjoyed it up to that point. So, for people that really was a time of healing, there had to be a time of healing and reconstruction with a country and reconciliation after all of the time, not just by the school. And he started to implement what he had watched.
For children, he established schools, he established a printing field, and began to have a little bit of modern economic practices, trying to have transportation, trucks for trade, and also kind of opening up the society welcoming the exiles, highly educated, the exiles came back after Abir Rahman. And he also allowed the Jewish community to start again their commerce where trade, when they had been prevented from a lot of that under his father. So, the carer cool trade started up again, and he wanted to, he respected the Jewish community, and about to invite the leader of the Harajic community to live with them in the palace in Kabul. But unfortunately, after eight months of our contact, we were able to go to the university, and then after seven, he went to visit Harajic, and he bestowed robes, to the Jewish community, and it was kind of a procession with honor cards.
And the whole point about what it was to show his esteem in the Jewish community, and that respect should be, in my son's living in the car, to show that the ruler value the Jewish community and they should see them. And then, it's done, a lot of work done, was really the big reformer in the middle of the 20th century, and his rule was from 1999 to 1929, and he started school system, and he stands around young people to get Western education, and he tried to implement many reforms, and ultimately, it was too much. And he went out of Grand Court Europe, and he was really gone for too long, and then after that, unfortunately, he was overthrown. But for the decade of 1920s, it was another very positive time for the Jewish community, and some of their sons received a stronger education, and there was some discomfort, without as well.
And also the beginning of these ideas about nationalizing, and exporting input to, and also the very beginning. But the Jewish community really felt safe under him, and they stopped walking their, where they lived, the areas where the Jews lived, they weren't obligated, so they used to because their ones were real, and security, and in fact, one writer in 1929, he said, at the back, the one who was kindled under heavy willow, yet a monologue exceeds his bothering, the Jews feel safe under his protection, and indeed they did. In regards to how and why was he overthrown. He wanted, especially it was around women, he wanted to encourage women's education, and for child marriages, and the script, including the job in Kirda, and the Clerger, Clerger, really upset about them, and that started a revolt against you.
So it's interesting, we have some of the same themes that are found even today in Afghanistan, at work-bound, and to use them. So again, the pivotal role of women in society, and the way that women were to be treated, I don't know, a Clerger spoke, the strong efforts were reform, and then reactionary, reaction to them, negative reaction. So that's been going on for quite some time. Also, I think it's important to note that I found a horse in the 1920s and 30s, while stalling, while there were the purges, black divisations, and the starvation of millions of people in the Soviet Union, but at the state in front, in Central Asia, what we saw with this is incredible amount of wealth, with huge effort for literacy, and literacy for women.
And so that was also, that also impacted Afghanistan as well, I believe, at least I do. And in this bottom, I also did the worst, and he's done, and Turkey, and Persia, and in style, he was not to influence all of them. Who is Mohammed Sahir Shah? You alluded to him three questions ago.
Why is he notable? What were his policies towards Jews? What is his legacy in the history of modern Afghanistan? Okay, I'm sorry, I forgot about the relationship.
So, when was Zacchia Shah? Where is Raqingh in Afghanistan? And he ruled around, well, middle, well, he had a regent when he was a child. His uncle ruled for him until the early 1950s, on the 30s until the 23th, the mother of the two, but then, or late boys, and then he started to rule in his own right, and he felt a very strong connection towards the Jews, it's like his ancient brethren, and he had these garden around the royal palace, and he allowed Jews to enjoy the garden, and he would sometimes go on walks, and then go on walks, and then talk to the families who were seated who were in the picnics in the garden, and ask them how they were doing, if the children were being well treated, and he was absolutely well treated.
And when he was the post, the community really felt that it wasn't safe anymore, and it was time to increase that, most sometimes when he was the one who was the one who was the one who was the one who. Well, some at Gen-J, they couldn't take many possessions with them, but sometimes they would take photographs of the machine, when they went predominantly to Israel, and he helped, he was very protected. And that helped to make things better for the Jewish community and the ancient traditions of the Christian. But the one who remained was who didn't want to be Israel, and he also allowed the community to be.
What? And you tell us about the Karakwul Land Trade, what role did Jews play in it, what does this teach us about Afghan economic history, and the Jewish relationship to Afghan economic history? So, I don't know if you are listeners, are familiar with the Hurley Black Wolf, and it was a very popular in the 1940s, and 15th and perhaps your grandparents are great-grandparents, great-grandparents would wear on a jacket that was this really black wool. And also among Turkmen, the traditional kinds that they wear, also are of this small.
So, Turkmen and Turkmenistan, the area, now Turkmenistan, this is the other issues, the sheets that come from this area that they look at. And Jews of Turkmen historically have very positive water connections because in the 18th and 19th century, Turkmen sometimes would enslave Persians, but could wouldn't enslave Jews because of the inter-media between the Turkmen and the settled population. And so what would happen is the Turkmen were chaperones, and then they would sell the skinned sheets to the Jews who traded on painted by the skin, first in the translation of the Clara in the Raffinites, and then later after the rise of Stalin, Turkmen, and their flux with them, as they were escaping the W Central Asian, and then in finding refuge in Afghan. And so there was a strong connection between Attic, first of all, the Central Asian Jews and their Jewish, they had a shoveling right after it, a certain amount of time after it here or two, you know, you can eat them any more.
The skins were all the holly Afghans and to have one purchase for it, currency, they were very valued in the West, and so that began the beginning of the National Liberation of Afghans and the compundramies started with Catholic students. And so at the beginning Jews played a really important role in that trade because they were really trusted at the Chartmen. But the greater when the ruin released how valuable the Caracal Trade was, then it started the beginning of the Great Deal, a difficult example. But studying what happened precisely in the Caracal Trade really shines right on the larger theme and back again economic history, as there was these multiple times where the government tried to nationalize the Caracal Trade, which caused a great deal of value, pain and difficulty for the Turkmen traders and for the Jewish community.
And ultimately, we're going to the Jewish community's expulsion from all of the small towns in the northern and northern region of the country, and there are forcible settlements in the Middle East, into both parrots and olive and apple, and that in about as on the government in 1930s, the nationalize of the Caracal Trade. So what happened to the White House? Thank you. Can you tell us about Jacob Chai, Pinchas, the Jewish Caracal trader?
Why is he in boardrooms? It's the worst, so there was this man in the event. So he was, we think of him as a behind you, and we think he got Afghan citizenship. Well, he appeared to get a got enough citizenship, but he lived in London, and so that's the reason we know some of his stories from the guys living under.
And then he started to have problems. And he traveled from London, then to Bombay, the Shahwar Kabul, and then he went up into my daughter's sugar. So we're all the Caracal sellers were congregated in 1933, 1932, and he tried to buy some terrible skins. But then he was considered under suspicion by one of the higher government representatives anywhere.
And he eventually, there was suspicion about him that he was going to the sun out, steal the trade, and he wasn't going to allow the early nationalization process he had at the beginning. And so there was suspicion about him, but he still tried to purchase skins for boardhears in this amount, but eventually he got friends to present. And then he released because he got it, isn't he? And in 1936 he applied to the Bible clearly on London, but that was turned down.
And so he appears to have read for some time in the Shahwar, and he does exactly what happened then. But his story here, he had a lot of problems, and his story really shows that how the Caracal trade, how the families lived in different cities, they started, you know, one brother in London, another one in Shahwar, Kabul, and then he was in the middle of the world. And they were traded amongst each other, then skins or other goods between them. And he had, unfortunately, he carried a letter from the deposed a miracle farm, and so that was considered suspicious.
But it also shows that when the Jewish traders were trying to work within the new system, a new monopoly system that had been established, you can't understand, it could be very difficult, but I'm very dangerous. And so his story is right at the beginning of the end of the traditional pattern of trade between the Turkmen and Jews. Thank you. You alluded to two high-profile Jewish prisoners in Afghanistan, Shmul Shabtai Da Dash, and Shmul Benfanyayakutiel, who were charged with espionage in 1933.
Who were they? What befell them? Can you elaborate? And Shmul Benfanyayakutiel was actually sent to Soviet Central Asia in the 19th of 2020, in the month of the month of the teenager.
He studied Russian Arabic Turkish and English. In fact, he wrote a really important handwritten dictionary, while translating words from todayo, the Persian dialect of Afghanistan into English. And this was a really important record. But in this, our researcher in Israel had this little type of dictionary this day.
And so he had a wonderful education, and then he came back to Afghanistan, and he got married. And then he was in prison under the agency under the Russian plant before the other side. And so he really suffered a lot from anyone's channel. And he kind of experienced both extremes very good and very bad, and it was eventually here.
He was freed and he looked at the end of the pregnancy. So that's kind of a tragic story. But one word for a Caesar caught in between these very different trends in Afghanistan between one in your progressive and another one very fearful. That's the implement.
Can you tell us about the history of Mesh hadi Jews in Afghanistan? How did they come to migrate there? How did they socially and culturally adapt and evolve within the Afghan context? Can you contextualize their history under prisons in Afghanistan?
So, my tribe is in Sydney, in northeastern Europe. And it's a holy city for shamism. And in the Sanitifoies, there was a Sunni ruler. The pregnant of the pyre named Nadir Shald.
And we believe he had like a cash or treasures, and he also wanted to stimulate trade. So he decided that he would put 60 Jewish families in Mesh hadi, or near Mesh hadi, before his tradition. But then he died, and the families were still in reach. And eventually they were in different cities, and eventually they all ended up in Mesh hadi for about another 100 years.
And so you had these families in a holy shiab city, which is very precarious, especially within the speech. And then in the 1830s, there was wars between the Persian Empire and the British and Babylon. And it was a very difficult time in Mesh hadi in 1839. And then there's a blood libel against the Jewish community.
And the whole community was forcefully converted to Islam in March 1839, an event called Allah Dadd, where God did. And this, and actually the community never returned to an open practice of Judaism in Mesh hadi. But they were able to maintain the secret of practice of Judaism in their form. And the reason why is because of the way that women's space in Muslim form was not for outsiders.
No outsider could enter in a no outside man, enter in a space for women. And so the community continued to practice Judaism secretly. What they would do is they would put a woman in front of a doorway, where inside the men were praying. Well, again, it was considered woman's space.
And also this community was very successful in that they all returned to Judaism. They named they practiced Islam externally for a lot of other than over three years, but then they all returned to Judaism as they were able to run. When they went into hand or when they in the bridge is cool. But anyway, because they were hit, they were externally Muslim and hit engines.
They were writing in Barsti. Some of them had maintained close relations with the imams and other Muslim. And that was one week. We thought about it, the students of Islam, they showed much more external interest.
And Islam, and so they became wealthy and able to be able to trade in a way that Jews didn't want to be able to be full. But then there was another group who were very angry. And they were very emotional, just to suit their thoughts on the country. And they went into the desert.
And sometimes joined forces, sometimes joined up with Turkmen tribes. And sometimes fight against the Persian as a member of a Turkmen tribe. And so they were angry. They also augmented the population.
They also became a really important part of the Afghan Jewish community. Because of this weighing of Jewish, put the Jewish refugees on where fleeing the tribe. And entering Afghanistan, they were able to return to Judaism. Because the Sunni Muslim of Afghanistan didn't recognize that Shia Islam was really Islam.
So the Jews could return to Judaism without coming to worry about the consequence of the Arab language. But the majority of the people who were already in the same state of the country were able to return to the tribe. And so they, so much of the Jews, Islam really helped to revitalize the African Jewish population. And that's where we see the beginning of a larger modern Jewish community in Afghanistan is after 18 years.
What that notation? And you comment on the similarities and differences between Jewish refugees, Uzbek refugees, Turkmen refugees, and Christian refugees, situations in Afghanistan before and during World War II. Well sure. So let me fast forward a little bit.
So what we just had right, what I just described as a degree is in, you know, 18, very 18 forays. So Jews entered into Afghanistan. And they stayed there in about 100 years. And sometimes it was very different.
So on 1856, you could choose the Persian army by entering the Arab God. And decided that all the Jews that were living there in here were actually belongs to the empire, to Persian. And so they took them all, they took them back to Masha, and they put them in an old, trial and surise, or like out, where they can open their print. And the Jews who were, the Christian Jews, the leaders of the new Congress to Islam, really helped, gave them true and supplies, enabled them to survive, because in that time, and eventually they returned to here.
And then we can see what happened to the community, went to various rulers and... Sometimes it's okay, essentially. And there were maybe thousands of Jews that were in, lived in Afghanistan. And so it's a very small community, and kept very quiet.
Another important thing about this community is that the really new city in Kabul and here, and men would travel the northern region, the country to trade, and the North Carolina, and other kinds of trade. And then they would also go into the Russian Empire and into Western Europe or to India, and so they were gone for long periods of time. And so the women really maintained their households in the cities. And then so it was very small community, until our collectivization and purge their sound.
And then there started to be these waves of refugees coming from the more into Afghanistan, into the more ancient tier of Afghanistan. And the Afghan government treated them all very differently. It was back in Turkmen and the Muslim population, Muslim refugees from Central Asia were well treated by the Afghan government. They were allowed to decide all their work.
Jewish refugees, Muahran, Muahran predominantly, and in my court, did you both try? They were not allowed to work. They were also rounded up into old tribal and survive, and eventually they were deported from the more into the cities. They were very stubborn.
And then the course experiences were probably for Christian refugees, who were deported to China across the Wakan core in Afghanistan. And that meant really much certainly not. So most Christian refugees were not survived. But that you could see the three different ways that refugees were treated dependent upon their religion.
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You two. Yes. So in November of 1955, actually there was a letter that was sent to Vangdit. The Jewish committee in Muntin that describes how this father of 13 year old girl named Tova, said that daughter didn't return from home from school in the first day of Rondon.
And he went to the police and they searched for her. But then the police chief came back to the police commissioner came back and said, well, they've certainly found the girl when she wished to convert to Islam. And then in the letter that was written to London, Mayor Shammawalwala, he said, he learned that Tova was locked out and she was being denied food and she was being beaten with canes and treated to Islam. And she was told that she already didn't declare it to have accepted Islam.
And now if she wanted to become a Jew, she would be tortured, treated and killed. And so the father was, of course, the family was absolutely decided itself. And they went to the deputy prime minister with Kabul, who promised to help, but then unfortunately didn't do anything. And then the next day, the father visited the palace around the pop nun, and he presented his petition, became to Zawgirshal, as Zawgirshal passed in a procession.
And the next day, the father was invited into the king's palace. And the king agreed that Tova would be returned to a referendum. But for some reason, she was still not returned. And then one day on after an independent state, that was under went to the ladies' garden.
And she saw her daughter there. And then in the letter, right, step on, she beseeched Tova to get her freed, and down. But she couldn't. And then Wanda, right, that he is a middle-class man who spent all of his resources to get back my beloved child.
We are boldly upset with her separation and her torture and distress. And I have them threatened that if I took any further steps to get back my daughter, Muslims in Kabul were tapped all Jews and killed them all. My neighbor was stranked more than the voice and influences. There is no democratic or lawful rule in Kabul, or I could break my burdens and be heard.
Therefore, I openly approached him with my Jewish brethren outside. He is all that means to their command and to restore my beloved child to me. So what the father did is he was writing to Wanda to ask for help from the Jewish community there. And later on, the board deputy that British Jews asked to speak to the Afghan ambassador, who said, well, you're a lot of people who can do what she wants.
And so we really, so first, sometime I really didn't know what happened to Tova. But later on, I interviewed a woman in Israel and she said that during that day, she got to know, she liked her young boy and went home again. They're not sure if she really wanted to marry him or not or what happened. But somehow, the Jewish community was able to secure her beliefs.
And she eventually returned to the Jewish community and immigrated to Israel and tried to write a life that was back in the Jewish community. Whereas not had in previous direction that would have been impossible because children were abducted for centuries from the Jewish community. And they'd never returned. And so at the moment, the community was able to use its contacts both domestically and internationally.
But they helped with Dr. Shavr to help the Afghan ambassador and with their own influence, that he was able to tell him a little better personally. Can you tell us about Afghan economic history in the 1930s? Absolutely.
So the history of the Jewish community of Afghanistan is really tied to what happened in the 1930s and very, very, very own policy. So as well, parrot called, again, began to go into Afghanistan, the Afghan government, this was a very weak way of trade. And the bird really helped to generate revenue for individual government officials, but also for the country of the whole. And yet, it was the same time where Afghanistan was stepping very carefully in between the Soviet Union on one side and the British Empire.
And so we had to figure out what it would be to navigate a very difficult situation. And so one of the things I came up with was kind of a Soviet model of nationalizing the most lucrative parts of the trade. And that was considered a way to protect against Soviet universities in the 20th century. And so the system of monopolization started.
And it was called shirka kakashami, shirka ri's law, and it eventually became the national bank. And so what happened was, as I moved to the story of Jacob by P. the Faz, that Jewish traders were no longer allowed for free access to the herders that women heard on sheep's peppers and to the caracal skin. And now they had to build a new government in the novelistic system.
The system was implemented by an amendment of the government, and he had been educated, and had legalists of the Union, he lived sometime there, as a law in Germany. And he came up with a system as a way to protect the Afghan continent. But economies are mainly fragile, and having big changes quickly caused a great deal of distress for the chirpmen and shepherds, who are the Jewish community, for the minorities who really suffered as a result of the policies that were incommulted to get the resources into posturing the Afghan, ethnic outgaggen. And so it was really very difficult.
In fact, I went to reaching a little excerpt that came from Abhish bin Sen in 1941, and he wrote, he said, the whole Afghan trade, except the last important trade in conduct, was formerly in the hands of Indian from Bishawur and Oriental Jews, who are the persons. These people used to buy Persian skins in pre-competition in Mazar, Antpoy, and at Baxia, bring them to the Shahwar of London and sell them to European and marry the Burns. They were into the years between the Afghan producer and the American or European consumer, and I must say that the very great confidence that existed between the fragments of the Oriental Jews, which made it as credit to you as possible. When the market was up, everyone thought the advantage is the small sheep owner, the small deer in Turkestan, the big outgandias, or the Indian, or Oriental deer in the Shahwar of London, and the market decreased, everyone fell a bluff.
And so that's the way it had, that's what happened before. But then there's this new Sisba where the monopolization system came, and all of a sudden, the same doesn't sense it. The sheep owner gets practically nothing for his skin, and he's not supposed to know the exact market price. This is why buyers are not allowed anymore, and if you realize that a few hundred thousand people read sheep there, most of them own smart lots, you will understand that the new quality has brought misery.
The real producers are not allowed the benefit of a rising market. And then they went on to say that if he tried to do, if the caracol trade had been in question terms, this policy never would have succeeded because there would have been too much protest and too much pressure on the government. But because these were two different ethnic minorities, religious minorities, Jews, and ethnic minorities, with the Turkmen, the policy was successful. But it meant what Turkmen shepherds were in, poverty, or impoverished significantly, and what happened as a result of these early non- excess policies was that the entire Jewish population, in the northern tier of Afghanistan, was forcibly expelled.
They became internal refugees, and they had to live in either hierarchical. They couldn't, they couldn't no longer live in any of the town much more. And so, yes, it caused a great deal of suffering. And later, the Jewish community kind of warned how to navigate the system, and they began to get the higher to work, and cooperation with Muslim men, people with private business.
So, the Muslim men were the official owner of the business, and then the Jewish men would be in the background, probably, managing, and explaining how the business worked, and so they had to work together. So, that's how the Jewish community got around the rollout, the description against the coalition, the coalition, the people being the hierarchy, the green philanthropic, and the theoretical trade. And the thing that was really was way down, the community was a great deal of involvement, and that was the strong impetus, one of the reasons why they were resought to meet up with the UN. Who was Prime Minister Mohammed Hashim Khan?
Why is he important? So, one of the questions was Prime Minister from the 1930s, and he was the brother of Madish Shah, who was the king of Afghanistan from 1929 to 1933, then he was assassinated. So, now, your show was the next in the mind, but he was too young. So, for 13 years, the Haishim Khan ruled as Regent on the off-road, and he was very much a Buddhist student, but he was very, he did not follow the main client, he did not do that, but he separated the country through the really difficult time in World War II.
Afghanistan navigated, going between empires, going between the Sarmi Yimian, the British Empire, and also navigating the Nazi German and the relationship between Afghanistan. So, the religious community was suffered under his Regency, but they were not outright killed, but they endured. Can you tell us about Aptomajit Khan Sibuli? Why is he notable?
Well, I'm pretty much a con, what is really important, economic leader, well, economic leader in China, the economic policy in Afghanistan, he's the one who came up with the idea of the inauguration system. And he was also the one who really made overtures to Nazi Germany, and it was seen as a way to, it's a third kind of way, because Aptomajit Khan did not want to be in the sphere, the strong sphere of either the Soviet Union or the British Empire, and so, during the third way out, and so he negotiated with Hitler, but the same, but levels of anti-Semitism and that were seen in Nazi Germany certainly did not occur in Afghanistan, it wasn't the same. And also the Afghans became increasingly frustrated with the ways that research by weapons from Nazi Germany, and they went by gun, but no ammunition, or they were another kind of machine gun, but they were missing basic parts, and so they didn't do them any good, and then they found out that they were being charged twice as much as Turkey, and British have a run, and they were really frustrated by one. And later in the war, as the war progressed on the level, the Nazi German diplomats were all expelled from Afghanistan, which were not good.
And they were then interested in the middle of the war, Afghanistan tried to help German Jewish experts, probably just against them to help the country, but actually the British were then, but that was another interesting case. So we see both positive and negative, but not the enemy. Were there any Afghan Jews in Britain, France, Germany, and or the Soviet Union prior to World War II? Were during World War II, what if anything is known about Afghan Jews in Europe during World War II in the Holocaust?
Oh, so actually, Afghan Jews were settled in cities throughout Western Europe, in New York, Jerusalem, Peshawar, Bombay, Leipzig, Ruman, Paris, Guangdun, and New York, they were already settled there at the 1930s, and that's the reason why they know this history, because of these traders. And as I mentioned before, all the time that would happen, there'd be a brother in several different cities, one brother in Kabul, or Peshawar, and one in Jerusalem, another one in Western Europe, and they traded each other, and they're also on rainy layers through time. And so some of these letters ended up in Western archives, and that's how the story happened to Afghan Jews. So yes, there were Afghan Jews throughout in Europe, in World War II, certainly in London, and then in Paris as one.
And what we know is that there was one Afghan dick on that, who was willing to protect the Jewish community, that needs an Afghan Kurdish community. Well, Afghan, Persian, Bohar and Jews, and on Western caucuses in the United States. And she worked with another, another, another, another man from Bohar, and the community itself is safe around the Holocaust, because Georgian diplomats and Iranian diplomats, with the help of a Bohar and Jewish man, came up with this incredible kind of force. And they said that Jews weren't really Jewish, they were actually Aryan, and that they were just, you know, they just happened to have, you know, the Mosaic belief system, but they were racially Aryan.
And so this first protected all of the Central Asian and the U.S. community in Paris, and only one of them died, it was what you, that was very interesting. What did Afghan Jews know about Zionism and the Yushu, prior to 1948? How did they know?
Can you comment on Afghan Jews' attitudes towards, and perspectives towards Zionism? So, Afghan Jews were really designers, were with belief in the back. John, of Myers Avisreal, was, they had a messianic identification over it. They certainly knew about the Yushu because of their trading connection, and the long distance, you know, trade and communication that happened between different siblings and families, and we were really connected to other Jewish communities because of the Minchina National Trade.
And they were really, really excited about the creation of the state of Israel. And so, while in the late 1940s, there were riots against the Yushu community. We know that sometimes the Chief of Police protect the community on the religious belief about passionate descent from Jews, that all that wasn't considered a protected community, but sometimes they still endured unwelling riots, murder and violence, and hard and difficult harm because of the patience they were to, but nothing like what, you know, it was not what one saw or interact. For example, in many other parts of the Yushu community, what is not the same extent at all.
And they were really, but they were absolutely open to the right by their patience, but the state of Israel. And in fact, there's one letter that was written in the 19th, and the Great 19th, and the 19th, and I don't want to read a little, some excerpts of it, but you don't mind, because that is being really interesting. So, and it starts to honor the fine money government of Israel, Shavon. With great pleasure, we send the fates of the mountains of the Zion to your Excellency, our original party and eternal readings.
We express with a full heart our feelings that you will be trampled forever. We bless you with the blessing God who has kept us alive after the standards enabled us to reach this day. For thousands of years, the people of Israel were in exile and scattered under the Fourniope. Their wandering feet did not find rest, and their hope was to find a day of salvation, and now this day has come.
Now, in the end of days, we're not going to be struggling to stress God and to enlighten the people of Israel with salvation and bravery. The holy people of Israel was filled with bravery to achieve its precious land and to not its throne. With high governance, the Excellency of the Messiah and God of Jacob. Your honor, we are in the darkness of bitter exile, and do not feel the sweetness of the shining light upon us.
And it is like we are dreaming, as it is written when God returns to Zion before being as if dreaming. We believe that God has sworn an eternal covenant to bring us back to the land, and even if this day wandering was very long and our people were scattered from one side of the Heavenless Chain of the Kingdom, we still hope that the time has come to return to our own end, and to renew our youth in the land like an eagle. From now on, we have no choice but to pray before God and the one who brings salvation, to strengthen the hands of those who defend our country, the holy land, and to raise up our Messiah and to draw together all the members of our scattered people. After all this, we have to let you know your Excellency, how horrible our well situation is.
Every day our Excellity becomes greater, and we are left without work. All the doors of commerce are locked to us. All the gates of the land are closed to us. Nobody can come and go from there from inside and from outside.
Excell causes us such grief. We don't have any more strength to suffer. We make a line in language or to provide for the necessities of life. We sold all our households, we are in the air of luck with empty hands, and we don't know what will be common for us.
And we therefore turn to you asking your Excellency to help as soon as possible, where our Excell continues for more months. All of us will be locked from lack of needs to support ourselves. Please, please, please, repay you that as long as we are to the next various of mercy upon us. You have a duty and a need to have to take care of these thousands of souls of Israel.
As it is expressed in the Gomara, if one saves a life of Israel, it is as if the whole world has been saved. And simply not since you led her of reaping a request, because there was no place between the government and the Afghan government. And also we are in the danger and midst of our exile, where all of this we ask your pardon. It is meant for the past 15 years or more that the majority of our population collaborated to the land, and we were separated.
An an from his brother, a father, and a mother from their son, and a brother from his brother and sister. We received news from them that sat down to Israel, or other governmental offices, and we did not know what became of them. Until a letter came from the community of Afghanistan and Israel, that among those who died in the 48 War, 24 were from our community. When this sad news arrived, one eye set in tears, and the other eye was healthy, that they were chills for our people, and for the city of our God and our native ones.
What is more their government takes care of their relation and gifts in their warm? Yet we cannot take care of all of our needs. If this letter is not beautiful, we beg your pardon, and we will keep it short instead of prolonging it. And therefore we pray to God that we will soon see each other in the face of the Messiah, the God of Jacob.
And the rest of the ministers of the government are by our land, because we are now along from the Holy community of Tehran, after you understand. And when John is signed by your sakoan and shulahu. So this is an extraordinary letter in that it, but also their Zionism was really through the little land. They believed that the de-achalation is coming.
And so they were disappointed. That's not exactly what happened. And it took them years for most of the community to leave Afghanistan, and they were allowed to leave because it's on her style. But the other shots that there was not going to be, there wasn't going to be a plan coming down, and they were to need through their regular routes that people would normally leave Afghanistan through the buses, going first to Mashad on, and then to Tehran, the end of the Israel.
But yeah, so I thought that this on the weather, yes, on our listeners, a sense of the intensity of their longing for the land. Can you comment on the attitudes of India, Pakistan, and Iran toward Afghan Jews' immigration to Israel? Sure. So in the 1930s, some Jews led into India and ended up in a courtyard, actually in the bond days since then.
And they stayed there through 1947 on the 48th ordinary, and eventually what happened was Israel sent a plane to pick the knot. Before they picked up Jews from the end, it first went to Bombay, and all of them were picked up there. So they really had a lot bigger problems, and so they were just too much with happening with the partition, and a million people who perished in the creation of the Indian and Pakistan. So the Afghan Jews lived in a courtyard, and this thing got more important.
There was some high level of correspondent between the Indian and the Arab governments, which allowed the plate, but mostly there were more than Pakistan, and Pakistan, the community, there was a community in the shower, but soon after it was gone, it was gone, after 47, mostly they left, and in Iran, they were tolerated. In my shot again, right, 100 years before, my study community protected the Jews who had left it and just arrived, and eventually, in India, where did you come from? Where did you work? Where did you work?
Where did you interact between the Indian and the Indian and the Indian, and then go on to Italy, and eventually, in India, which is... As we bring our dialogue to a close, can you tell us about your current research? What have you been working on since completing this project? Thank you so much.
So really, my work has really changed direction right now, because I live in New Mexico. Now, I'm really more focusing on the Sephardic experience and crypto-Jewish experience in the Indian and real world, and we have a real modern Jewish moment, a quick-to-Jewish moment, who will return to an open practice of doing it in the 1970s in New Mexico, and I'm actually working on it right now. When I'm working on it, I'm able to have that published in the years. And that's the work that I'm doing now, but also, there's going to be an exhibit at the Museum of the Bible about Afghanistan in 2023.
So if you're interested in African Jewish history, I encourage you to stay tuned around because there's going to be a wonderful book published as a few books, published by the girl, one on one, and then finally, I hope that you'll be able to interview the only editor of the book that did last. That would be amazing. I would love to be thrilled to. Thank you.
Great. I want to thank you for your time and all of your excellent questions and all of your interest in the research. Thank you. I'm absolutely honored by your magnanimity and by your thoughtful, erudite, and eloquent responses to all the questions we discussed today.
I could not have been luckier to have had such a beautiful experience with you. I consider myself unbelievably fortunate. You're so kind of able. I wish you all the best in taking again.
Thank you. To our listeners, I'm your host, I'm your host, I'm a new books and Jewish studies podcast. I read barbell ads today. I've been in dialogue with Sarah Coplic.
We have been discussing her book, a political and economic history of the Jews of Afghanistan published in the Netherlands by Brill Publishers 2015. Sarah is director of the Aaron David Graham Hillell House at the University of New Mexico.