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Very excited about our guest today. It is the one, the only, Sarah McLachlan. I mean, so many hits. Such an incredible singer. Started a little affair.
Created a music school. I mean, she's just awesome and talented and nice and funny. And Sarah and I are going to talk about a lot of things. We're going to talk about growing up in Canada and whether those lakes ever get warm. The answer is no.
We're going to talk about Lilith Fair, what it took to start it and make it and keep it going. We're going to talk about her new music, making music with her daughters and being a woman in the world today. So many good things. Also, I should let you know at one point, have a coughing fit. And it is really embarrassing and Sarah is so cool about it.
Because of course she is. She's the coolest. So thank you, Sarah. Before we get started, we always like to ask people that know our guests to give us a question and talk well behind their back. And we have a great one today.
And her in here to talk about stuff, the one, the only, the multi-grammy award-winning Cheryl Crow, everybody. Cheryl, this episode of Good Hang is presented by Uber Eats. Big news, Aldi is now on Uber Eats. And you get 20% off your first gross reorder with code new Aldi 26. So whether your fridge is empty and you're too tired to shop or you just ran out of essential ingredients in the middle of meal prep, don't worry.
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I can't tell you, in fact, it's funny, are we on? Yeah, we're on. Well, I was saying, I texted Adam Scott. I was driving home from visiting my parents in Missouri, a three and a half hour drive. And my mom's not making memories anymore, so it's always a hard drive back.
And I listened to you and Adam on the way back. And I laughed, like for literally off and on the whole way. It was the greatest gift ever. So great. Did you say you texted Adam?
I did, I texted him right, like right after that. Wait, are you guys friends? I didn't know that. Well, actually, it's funny we were married in a past. No, I met him.
I met him on the Kansas City, the big slick. Oh yeah, that fundraiser they do every year. It's the funnest thing ever. And I'm from Missouri, so I kind of like edged my way in there. And I met him through that.
And I'm like, oh my god, he and Paul Rudd. I mean, it's just, it's all your people, but it's so much fun. Oh, Cheryl, that means a lot. I love you. Where are we talking to you from?
I'm in Nashville. I'm in the, technically the Sun Room, but it's pouring here. I mean, it's literally Nashville is like the rainforest now. Well, I always associate you with Austin, but you're out of Austin, international. Yeah, I moved, actually kind of, I moved from Austin to Nashville.
I got, I was engaged, got diagnosed with breast cancer, split up, moved to Nashville, basically, and had lysic surgery, most importantly, all in the process of like three weeks. You know, this just leads me to my, I don't know if it's not even a question. It's just an observation. It's just women are amazing. I mean, I just, I can't, it's just like everyone should be saying this every day.
The things you just listed would take any man down. You just pick it up and keep on moving. Well, I've been, you know, we're talking to Sarah McLachlan today and I had the pleasure of watching the Lil' Fair Doc and two things. One, that whole experience to me feels like just a great version of what we're talking about, which is creativity for creativity sake, like watching artists kind of try to find the fun part. Yes.
But it also reminded me of how cool you are, Cheryl Crow. Like every single time you come on stage, I'm like, God, look at Cheryl's outfit. Look at her hair. Anyway. No, go on.
I have time. Don't be. That is so nice. I will tell you, that tour was not like anything I've experienced. And the whole thing came about it, such a strange, you know, a lot of the balloons that was happening.
And every time, like I can remember calling my agent saying, can I get some women on a bill? Like I'd love to tour with Amy Mann. And every time it would be like, yeah, people won't buy tickets to see two women on a bill, particularly men in the middle of the month. And around that time, Sarah had this crazy idea. And she wound up calling me.
And I was just, God, it's just a perfect time for it. All that to say is that what we took out on the stage was, it was defiance, but it was also like community. It was a little bit of a gentle fuck you to the norms. The fact that, yeah, there were quite a few, you know, there were quite a few gay women in the audience, but there were as many families and as many heterosexual couples and as many men. I mean, it was totally everything.
So it defied what all the agents and the promoters were saying, like you're just going to wind up with an audience full of women and they're not the ones that buy tickets. And she really defied that in her beautiful, genteel, gypsy way. And she brought everybody along with it. It felt like we were taking a party out on the stage. And hopefully people did feel like they were included.
Yeah. I had a brilliant conversation with Brandy Carlisle about it. Her being in the audience as a young girl and wanting to do what we were up there doing. And there's such beautiful power in that. It really was not like anything else that I've ever been a part of.
I always ask my guests a question from someone that knows them well. And is there a question you have for Sarah that you think I should ask her? I mean, one of the things I always think is interesting, well, two things. What would she be doing if she wasn't doing music? Because it's so much a part of her.
I mean, she's her own school. But I think about that. I was a school teacher. So I'm always like, well, if it doesn't work out, I'll go back to teaching school. If it doesn't work out.
If it doesn't work out. Yeah. OK, so I'll ask Sarah about that. That's a great question. Anything else?
Yeah. This is something that I just find interesting with people who wind up making it. As Sarah, if she just always knew she was going to make it. Like, did she just know she was going to be doing what she's doing? But I don't think I ever knew I was going to be doing this until I was maybe eight years in.
Great question. Cheryl, girl, I love you. Thank you so much for doing this. I love you too. This episode is brought to you by Subaru.
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Visit Subaru.com slash hybrid to learn more. Sarah McLachlan is here. I just had a major coughing fit before we started. And it's good to get it out beforehand. It made me think about what do you do when you're singing and you have to cough?
Yeah, that's tricky. What do you do when you cough? And you just, you know, it's one of those the show has to go on. But you're like, I'm just going to need a moment to talk and take a drink and go, you know, can't believe that one. I'm in a pause.
And I said, hold on, I can't. But not that one. Have you ever thrown up on stage? No. I have a fear of that.
Almost. Oh, shit. Yeah, I was doing the tree lighting at Rockefeller. We were doing a Christmas show. And oh, yeah.
And I was freshly pregnant. Oh, yeah. And was just painously ill, like just green 24-7. And I remember being, you know, it's very public. And you're doing this, you know, your sound check.
And everybody's watching. And I'm just looking at the course. OK, there's a point set over there. It's like, where's a quiet corner that I can go hurl? In front of everybody.
Oh, the glamour. There's so many things to talk about today. I'm thrilled that you're here. Like, when we talk about the guests that we want to have on the show, and your name came up, we thought we were like, that would be a dream. Well, thank you.
And so let's start by going back because you grew up in Canada. Yeah. And we started this interview with me apologizing and saying, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, which is not very Canadian. I love Canadian. They're the best.
They're so nice. Are they as friendly as people think they are? Generally speaking. Yeah. Generally, I think we're polite for one thing.
That's right. By nature, there's a certain thing you uphold of just being civil and polite to everybody. I know. There's a Canadian attitude that's really lovely to be around, which is basically, and I think a lot of it has to do with the weather, which is basically, you can either choose to complain or you can get on with it. Yeah, it's true.
There's certainly a solid amount of suck it up, buttercup. Yeah. And just don't get anywhere by complaining. No. Also Irish parents don't go through anything special.
Oh, big time. That's right. Yeah. Like you can't like just don't kind of fall in love with yourself. Yeah.
And we're here to crack it back down. We're going to humbly every step of the way if you do. So you grew up in Canada and you, when did you realize, you had this gift, you knew that music was going to be part of your life forever. Do you remember the feeling when you were young that you knew? I think I'm good at this.
I think I really wanted to do this. What was it? Great seven, variety show. And I have the preface as we're saying. I was really bullied.
I was terribly unpopular. And this was my opportunity for redemption. I'm going to prove myself to my community. And I got up there and I sang the gambler by Kenny Rogers on the guitar. Is it you got to know when to hold him?
Know when to fall? Yeah. I don't know. I'll go away. Know when to run.
Makes sense. It's a seventh grade girl. You know what I'm related to. I just love Kenny Rogers. It's the same.
I got up there to sing the song. I got to go halfway through it. And the mic stopped working. Oh, God. And so my moment, my triumphant moment was dashed because everybody said, oh, that wasn't really you singing that the tape player must have turned off.
They refused to acknowledge that it was me singing, but I knew I felt good about it. And I felt even better about it that they refused to believe it was actually me. And I thought it was a recorded version of something that obviously sounded a little more professional. So yeah. OK, so you're in Canada.
You're a young person who's realizing I have something special. Who are you listening to at the time? When I was really young, other than Kenny Rogers, it was Simon and Garfunkel, Kat Stevens. Yes. John Baez, joining at school.
Yeah. And then learning how to play how? When I was four, I wanted to be John Baez. So my mom got me ukulele and I started taking lessons. I lived in a little subdivision.
So up the street, there was a little lady who taught ukulele. And so I walked up there every week and took lessons. And then when we moved into the city, when I was seven, I started with the Royal Conservatory of music, which was kind of classical music was at the time kind of the only legitimate thing where to learn instruments. So I took classical guitar for 12 years. Took classical piano for six years.
It took voice for four years. And it was a fantastic foundation to learn how to play the instrument. But it was never really much. OK, so then you're listening to all these incredible singer-songwriters. And you decide you want to be a singer-songwriter, and you get a record deal at 19.
Yeah. How did that happen? So the very first band that I was in when I was 17, the October game, we played a gig at the Hose University sub-ballroom. And we opened up for a band called Mofe. And they were on a small independent label in Vancouver.
And the guitar player, singer of the band, heard me sing. And it was like, we want you to come out to Vancouver and join our band. And I'm like, cool. I'm 17. That's great.
So I ran home to my mom and dad who promptly said, are you having crazy, not a chance you're going to finish high school? And so I was still listening to them at that time, smartly. So I squeaked by high school. And then started going to York College there. And I was working at a place called Club Flamingo.
And Terry McBride, the president of the label, came with their band Skinny Puppy, which was this industrial- Oh, yeah, every Skinny Puppy. Yeah, Blood and Guts and Mud and Gore. Yeah. Anyway, so. Very different than your music came up.
Really different. Yeah, a little different. So he came. And I remember so clearly I was playing Quicksilver, my favorite pinball game. And I was working on my high score.
And he's like, hey, I want to talk to you. I'm like, yeah, yeah, give me a minute. So we waited until I finished. And he took me out to his Blush Blue Velvet tour bus. And sat me down at the kitchen table and put a contract from you.
So we want to offer you a five record deal. Whoa. And I was like, yeah, sure. What do you really want? I just want you to be in here.
There's too much plus in here. Yeah. But no, he was serious. And originally, they wanted me to come out to Vancouver and work with a bunch of other network bands. Then when I got out there, they're like, all these other network bands hadn't been asked.
And like, we're not going to work with this punk kid. She's got no track record. She has a written thing. And then never mind. But I was already there.
So at that point, they were like, well, let's just see what you come up with. And so I just kind of started writing to the best of my ability. I mean, obviously, I had a set a great foundation of understanding music and theory. I had done deep dives into my favorite artists, which at the time were Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush. Oh, don't give up.
Oh, don't give up. Don't give up. Sorry. No. That's good.
I hear you. I feel you. So I just kind of fake it to you, make it. I just made my first record in about a year and started touring and toured and toured and toured. And then just kind of went from there.
That's the thing that I think sometimes we kind of like, we're kind of tough on ourselves. And we look back and look at our naivete about things and think like, oh, we didn't know what we were doing. But there's such a freedom when you're young about kind of not knowing what's around the corner. Sometimes it's better to not know. In your interests bliss.
Yes, sometimes that's true. If you knew how important your decisions were that if you went left rather than right, it would change your whole life. You'd never take a step. We'd work in fear. Constant fear.
Constant uncertainty. So you're right. Just that sort of, you know, dumb and green. Yeah. Totally.
Just like the world is kind of your oyster and all these possibilities feel endless. Do you remember your first time you ever heard anything you'd ever written on the radio? Yeah. Where were you? I was in a taxi cab.
My first publicist, Tony, on our way to Toronto to do our very first promotional tour for the record. And Vox came on the radio and the two of us looked each other and just started screaming. And you did not know what was going to be on. Just taxi drivers of what the hell's going on. And so that's me.
That's me on the radio. And he's like, sure. And we got out and we pulled out the albums that we were bringing with us for the record or for the radio station. And he's like, oh, can I have a picture with you? Yes.
And then he wants a picture. Yeah. But it just felt like, like, validation. Oh, yeah. Oh my God.
How is it that this is already happening? It all felt so surreal up until that moment. And I mean, honestly, there are still many, many surreal moments after that. Well, you've had so many hits, like, throughout your career. I mean, we were, I was listening to your music all morning and your new record, which is great.
And it's so hard to, like, imagine, I imagine that songs, you know, just like any piece of art, they just kind of have a life of their own. They take all these journeys. They bloom. They come back. And then you think, oh, these are going to be the ones that are going to really go.
And they don't. Or others that you think, like, this is the one that's like the one that everyone's always singing back to me. That you have so many hits and so many songs. Like, does that, does songs feel that way to you? Your songs that they have their own life and journey that, like, is out of your control?
Absolutely. I mean, music is art is so subjective, right? It's like you see something, you hear something, you read something, and it resonates with you or it doesn't. And if you then, in part, you put your own story into it. And then that's where you draw inspiration from.
That's where that's how it affects you. Yeah. And so I mean, the coolest thing is when people come up and say, oh, my God, you know, the song you created or the song you wrote has helped me in this way. I brought it with me on my trip and, you know, like, I've met so many people who went through high school with my music or with the university. So, you know, really pivotal times and huge changes in their world is losing a parent losing a child.
Yeah. So all these stories about what it means to other people are beautiful and cool to know that there's something I've created has made some kind of impact and someone's life had been there with them on, you know, a beautiful journey, a tough journey. And somehow helped them in some way. I mean, you've been like a Cyrano for so many people because they, they've used your music to tell someone how they feel about them, you know, I mean, we came up in the era of like, mix tapes and putting music together. It was such a big deal to, you know, hand someone over a bunch of music that you picked for them.
And it was all here with my playlist. Yeah. Exactly. This is how I feel about you. It was like, it was like, I can't tell you, but I'm going to have you listen.
And there was always like coded language and what we put together for people. And so many of your songs and your music did that for people. They allowed people to kind of, you know, feel through you, you know. And is there, I mean, there's so many hits. Is there a song that like became bigger than, like, is it's still kind of is like surprising to you that it had the kind of journey it had?
Well, I suppose it would be angel. Yeah. And that was one of those very, very seldom happens as a songwriter that something happens quickly and easily for me. It's like, yeah, music is flowing all the time, but lyrics are really hard work. It's like extracting blood from a stone often for me.
And I'm super ADD. So trying to, you know, give me any distraction when I'm trying to do something that is hard and challenging in the sense of, you know, trying to focus. But angel felt like I was just a vessel and it just came through me in like two days and it was done. And I remember thinking at the end of when I first put out surfacing, like the rest of Selmskrap, but angels, angel solid. We obviously had no perspective.
I mean, now that was actually some good songs. Yeah. But that is, you know, that's that mindset when you've just worked and worked and worked at something and you don't have any perspective. Yeah. Angel has had, you know, such a life of its own and has done, you know, so many things.
I was talking about how it's helped people through, you know, individual tough situations. So many stories of my, I've played this, my mother played this when she was passing and they helped us. You know, the SPCA, obviously, you know, we raised $30 million within the first year, I think. So it's what has happened since. Do people assume that you, like, do people assume you're constantly fostering it?
Oh, yeah. Because you must get that for you. And also just, you know, like 10 or 20 letters a week about, you know, people sending me, you know, all their rescues and or I'm doing this charity. I'm working with this. Can you help?
Yeah. You know, and it took on such a life of its own. I remember I was doing a food bank charity gig in New York eight years later and they said, can you please not play angel because it's so synonymous with this other charity. There's gonna be some brand confusion. I'm like, oh, wow, are you serious?
I mean, it's true that I will remember you was a B side like that. That song was on it like in a film. Yeah, it was a brothers McMullen was Ed Burns, strict real debut. That's right. And it just that that's like one of the many monster hits.
Yeah. How many how many number one like how many hits have you had? You're asking the wrong people supposed to know this. You're gonna look over. You know what I want to do?
I'm gonna bring you number one. I'm so sick. You know, we're always like, oh, I don't even know. And we should know. No, this is this is embarrassing.
I don't know either. No, it's totally normal and actually it's why you're such you're a normal person who doesn't look at their hits, but I'm gonna look at your hits right now. Okay. I'm gonna read them right now. Sarah, can you handle this?
This is very American. We're not very Canadian. Well, I just wrote Sarah McLaughlin hits. You can salt the oracle? Okay.
Building a mystery. Sweet surrender. Possession. Better broken ice cream. Oh, yeah.
Angel. Vox. We talked about Vox. Herding on the radio. Into the fire.
Elsewhere. Fallen. Fumbling toward ecstasy. Adia. Possession.
Sweet surrender. Building. Everybody listening right now is having this moment of like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Thanks.
Sorry. I'm just gonna go back. Okay. So then you leave Canada. You're in a band.
Sorry. You're making music. Are you in a band at that point? No. You're just kind of making music under your, it's never Sarah McLaughlin and the.
You mean when I got signed? Yeah. Yeah. No, that was the other trick of it. That when they came and offered me that deal with my band that I hadn't been together for a year because they'd gone off to school.
So we'd kind of split up. They knew about it and they were like, what do you say? And I'm like, oh, you're like, like, this sort of excited moment. And I was like, I think they just want me. Yeah.
Now, I'm a little bit of a tough moment, too, but now you're, you start a tour. And when, how old are you when you ask Paula?, call it open for you. 21? Yeah. 22, yeah.
And, and why did you ask Paula? Because I loved her. Yeah. I loved her music and. How did you find out around me?
I think it's just radio. Yeah. Yeah, I was, you know, listening and watching what, you know, what else was going on out there and discovered her and like, and my God, what an incredible voice. So powerful, and I love her lyrics and love the melodies and things. When they're going to come sing.
Well, what I love about the little fair doc, which is not hulu is that it talks about the kind of slow process of realizing. a way to work. There's a way to choose how to work. It's very relatable, I think, for a lot of women who, if they're lucky enough, get an opportunity to figure out, is there a way I like to work that I could figure out? That's the dream. And you ask Paula to join as an opening act,
and you two realize, this is fun. This is actually fun. Yeah. Back then, I mean, I was all my crew were men, my band were men, a female backup singer, but it was just us and the sea of men who I adored and loved. They were my crew and they were wonderful bunch of people. But having Paula there was just this breath of fresh air for me and
this awareness of like, you know, we kind of need each other. This is a weird industry. It's isolating. We make music alone. And it's just really nice to have her around. It was great to
connect with her. My god, I was just sorry, the TIFF. She showed up. I didn't even know she was coming. We both burst into tears. It was like, oh, that's so nice. I mean, it's wild to me,
but there are people that don't really understand what Lilith Fair was. And for people who don't, they should watch this doc, certainly. But in a nutshell, how do you describe it to people who have never heard of it or didn't get a chance to go see it? It was a celebration of much of the great music that was being made by women in the late 90s. And it was, yeah, it was basically that.
And that was the simple origin story. And then we were told we couldn't do it because you shouldn't put more than two women on a stage together. You certainly can't play two women back to back on radio. And I had felt that I had seen that and witnessed it time and time again. I just never understood or liked the competitive nature of it. Yeah. You know, I didn't think music should be put into those kind
pigeonholes. I didn't think we as artists should be. I certainly didn't notice it happening with men and that pissed me off as well. So though it didn't start out as a political statement, it'd be kind of, you know, it became that we just told you can't do that. I'm like, oh, oh, yeah, that doesn't work for me. I just put a fire in her meat to prove them wrong.
Because people were saying there's just no way anyone's going to pay this money to see all these women performing like this. Yeah, how insulting. We proved our point in 1996. Yeah. And then went, oh my gosh, this was so amazing. And so fun. Let's do a full tour next summer.
And that was the point at which it's just like, oh, you know, you can't do that. So really, really? And then it was still, you just can't do it because we won't sell tickets. Yeah. Promoters would not take any risk. They were like, you can't do that. You can't do that.
You can't say, we just did. And we just sold out 15,000 people. And they're like, well, that's a one off. That's an anomaly. They're like, this isn't going to last. It's not going to last.
We know, that was just a little blip, a little fatter, a little trend. I'm like, no, no, no, we can do this. And again, that back to that naivety. I was just, yeah, you know, going, what are you talking about? No, we're going to do this. Right. And you know, we took for the most,
there's like no guarantees that we took all the risk by taking the risk. Did you make more money because you took the risk? Yes. You had some control. We had some control. We had a ton of control. Yeah.
And we got, you know, we raised over $7 million for local national charities over the three years. Oh, kidding. You know, again, I can't, I can't stress enough to watch the doc. But on top of everything else you were doing, I think what was so incredible about little fairs, it really did feel like a fair. It was, there were people walking around, there were booths everywhere. There was fundraising constantly. There was backstage. Everyone was hanging out. All
the women were bringing their kids on tour. It was like, it was like a utopian version of what it would look like if women were in charge of most of the systems of how to work. And it looked and still looks like this ideal way in which to be part of a community and still feel like you're an individual with, you know, you had a lot of artists who were very, very different on that tour. Yeah. And yet they still all wanted to hang out with each other. They took care of each other. You,
you know, you pay, you know, you gave health insurance to crew who often never had it on tour. Yeah, they never had it before. That's kind of unheard of in the industry. Yeah. I mean, listen, it was, it was just an extension of the way I live my life. And again, looking at
what it is, as how it is as an artist, as a band member, a crew member coming into someone else's environment, like how, how would I want to be treated? How would I want to be made to feel? Yeah. I want to feel respected and taking care of. And that was just the emotion.
Like we're going to take care of everybody. We're going to make sure everybody feels good, respected. This is a, this is a safe space. This is fun. You're all going to get fed really well. I mean, I'll never forget, you know, crew came in first day of new artists and I was super
crumpy. I mean, you know, I've had that experience going to a festival, you know, where it's like, are we even going to get a sound check? Are we going to get fed? It's going to be a long day. By the end of the day, everybody's happy. Everybody's smiling like, okay, this is, this is going to be
great. And that is the environment that I wanted to create for everybody there. It's like, this is an extension of me, of my, of my hospitality, of my ethos. Yes. You know, this is how you want to work.
Be respectful, treat everybody the way you want to be treated yourself. Just, you know, like, live and let live let people be. And let's just, I know, sounds very woo woo when you're talking. You know what, I mean, it's like, why do we all just get along? Why do we have to keep, also why do we have to say these kinds of things and then apologize for like how earnest and like, because like, it is like, you know, that was the thing about the doc is that what I felt was, you know, you didn't, no one can get anything exactly right. Right. So what was really wonderful
about what I felt like you were doing was constantly pivoting, taking feedback and adjusting. Like, there was a lot of adjustments you made you. What were some of the things that you, you know, when you were making that fair in a second or third year, you realized, oh, we have to adjust here. Yeah. I mean, we, the big adjustment was very early on, which was like, you know, white chick folk fest. I mean, I knew that was coming and I was, I agreed with that. You know,
and I was frustrated by it because we asked everybody, we asked all these different artists from all different genres of music. But, you know, to be fair, their management teams would look at the line up so far and go, I'm not sure where the place is for my artists in this. Yeah. And, you know, in my head, my naive head, I'm like, I listened to all different kinds of music. I know that most of my friends who are fans of music, they don't listen to just one genre. It just depends on their mood. They have, like, so why are we
being so, you know, minimizing of, you know, and sort of looking at our fans and, oh, they can't handle this. Of course they can handle it. They want it. They're hungry for it. And so to create that opportunity that, you know, for all of us to showcase our unique talents, which is, again, it just, it felt like the most natural thing in the world. Yeah. But it was a struggle to get those,
you get a lot of, you know, black and brown artists for sure. Like, I don't know where my place is. Sure. I want to see how it does. Yeah. I want to see the success of the first year then
allowed us way more latitude and way more freedom to go, Hey, you know, you know, go back and push and say, look, this is a really great opportunity for your artists to expand their fan base. Yeah. And, you know, we, in the second year, we also, we realized there's an opportunity, again, to how do you expand your fingerprint in a community after you leave, not only giving a dollar to a ticket sale to a local women's shelter, but having a stage for local artists in every market, you know, so just creating those opportunities, tons of tabling of various local organizations, you know, women's organizations, local and national, like just raising awareness, creating the space where there's open dialogue about all these things. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Apple Watch. Your heart
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brought to you by marshals fall fashion is well and truly on the way and marshals buyers are hunting down the must have items you deserve for the right price. That means every trip to marshals is a chance to find an everyday staple, a show stopping hidden gem or your next obsession with new items arriving every day. Stop by marshals today to find more quality, more style and more value than you ever expected. Visit marshals dot ca to find a store near you. This episode is brought to you by cam H. If you are someone you love as ever navigated
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for a second? Okay, so we've got, we've got Paula, we've got Sean incredible. We've got Cheryl Crow. Yep. Erica Badu, Michelle and Diego cello, Queen Latifa. Missy Ellie, first time ever on tour.
I know. That was cool. How did you get Missy? Well, you'd have to ask Marty that. I mean, he was, yeah, that was about my pay grade. But somehow he got Missy and that was that was awesome.
I mean, that footage of her coming out on stage, like in the giant, when she was, when she got wore that big, when she started garbage bag stuff with like all the inflatable stuff and that style. So she's incredible. And such an incredible and you saw the entire audience instantly stood up, I was like, Oh, okay, wow, what is this? This is so much fun. What about you at the end, go girls join? The end-go girls were such an amazing anchor for me. They came on early on and
kind of got everybody, you know, feeling comfortable with singing to you. Like I was still good Canadian. Like I was afraid to ask, I really wanted to sing with everybody. I didn't quite know how to do it. It's funny watching the doc have jewel, so you know, it said it exactly the same way. It's like,
I didn't know I was allowed to do that. Yeah. They're like, Oh, no, why don't, why's everybody singing together? I'm like, Oh, we can do that. He's like, yeah, let's just go do it. And they just opened
up this huge opportunity for all of us to really feel a whole different kind of connection. And that's when things really took off. And I also what they say in the doc, the end-go girls are basically like, you need some like openly gay girls here to teach out a party. You had Pat Benatar. Yes.
Any Lue Harris, right? Shenandoah Connor. Yeah. I mean, that was the part in the document. I mean, I've seen so many iterations of this over the end is but I cry every time. Tell me why. Well, because she's gone and she was
such a gift. Oh, she was like, she was really shy at the beginning, but wow, did she open up. She was a little shit as well. Like she was super playful, like a jokester prankster. We had so much fun together. And then to get to sing with her, you know, it's like being in the presence of,
you know, a goddess, basically, when she opens up her mouth and starts to sing, it's just, it's otherworldly. Yeah. And I got to be part of that. And I got to sing with her a number of nights. And, you know, that's pretty magical. And then just, you know, getting to watch that, like all
these moments that were so powerful and important to me and watching myself grow up on screen, like not a lot of humans get to have a gift like that given to them. Where's like, this is such a powerful and important time in my life that has been so succinctly and beautifully captured. Yeah. So yeah, watching, watching that, she's, she's gone now and it's so sad. So sad. Such an incredible talent. Yeah. And she was, you know, she suffered even back then,
like she just, she was really misunderstood and, you know, yeah, it's tough. Tracy Chapman, another beautiful artist who I love in the documentary, you talk about how she was the one everyone, one of many people that everyone came out and watched. Yeah. Every night when she's just talk about Grace. Yeah. Just as quiet, graceful presence. She was very shy too.
Yeah. It was kind of hard to draw her. People who are performing, you know, it's, it's thing that we learned over and over again, obviously, but were reminded that people, her performers are not necessarily extra such an introvert. Yeah. Who's the most introverted?
Who's the most introverted on that tour and who is the most extroverted? Tracy is probably the most introverted and extroverted. Maybe Cheryl. I mean, me, I was, you know, I was pretty extra, actually, okay. I mean, Amy and Emily for sure. Yeah. Because they were just loud, you know, they were loud and
proud. Yeah. They brought that really, like they said, this was sort of geeky fan, fan energy. And you had like, you talked about Emmy Lou Harris, Bonnie Ray, Chrissy Heind. Yeah. And, and,
I don't know if you feel this way, but I know I do because in, you know, I've had, I grew up in a generation where I feel like women my age right now are working together all the time and feeling really good about that and loving that experience. And when you meet someone who's maybe 10 years older than you, they just haven't had that experience very much. I've been on many sets where women in their mid 60s have said, oh, I've never, you know, been on the set with this many women. Yeah. I mean, they grew up in a time where we, you know, in whatever industry we were in, we were being offered a tiny sliver of the pie. Yeah. And we were in competition with each other.
Every element like it or not. Think about what they, what they came up against as they were coming up in the world. And that was even, you know, I would argue more toxic and more marginalizing towards women. Yeah. And, you know, you just kind of had to deal with those were the social norms then. Yeah.
You know, you walk into a radio station and get your ass robbed. Fucking hell. Or just knowing that that may happen or just the comments, you know, like, yeah, yeah. I think they're locked it out. Yeah. Well, because it was normalized. Totally.
And you just, you suck it up and you keep going because well, if you make a stink about it, then you're pushed out even further. Yeah. Yeah. And you're hanging out in a room full of boys. Yeah.
And if you want to be in that room, you kind of need to toe the line. It was the same thing. I was thinking about that. Like, Anne Powers is in the documentary. Yeah. You know, I didn't like
Anne Powers back then because she ripped the shoe out of us. And I'm like kidding. And she kind of claims it, right? She's like, I didn't get it. She's like, she couldn't have though because she's in a room full of guys. And she was a single woman, female critic. Like, I forgive her because I understand now,
I didn't at the time. I'm like, how could you be doing this? But the room that she was in was her male counterparts. And if she, you know, spoke appreciatively or in reverence to what we were doing, she would have been ostracized. Yeah. We all suffered in our 20s, in the 90s,
with deep internalized misogyny that we didn't even know we had in an attempt to assimilate. We were like, I want to be in the room. I want to figure out how to work the system. And I'm going to, without even knowing, I'm going to buy into a system that I don't believe in. And that's actually hurting me. Yeah. And what I love about Anne Powers, who's a journalist in the film who kind of
owns up to the fact that she wrote about, you know, wrote about how she wasn't getting a little fair and it wasn't for her. She realizes like much later on that she was grappling with her own, like, sense of trying to fit in. Yeah. I mean, little fair got teased. Like it got, did you care about that at the time? How did you feel? Yeah. How did you feel?
It was hurtful. It was annoying. But I just kept going back to the fact that, well, you obviously haven't come. Yes. And seen it and felt it because if you had, you'd think differently. So I just kind of like, well, you can have your opinion, but I'm having the time of my
life. No kidding. I don't want to be missing out. Sorry. Yeah. Yes. That's right. And I loved how
you guys did press conferences in every city that you went to. You're so painful. Did you ever think about not doing them? No, because there were two elements to that. There was one to, you know, the press wanted access. We understood that that was part of the beach that you have to feed.
And the beautiful thing is at the end of the press conference, we got to give attention to a local woman's shelter, you know, to raise awareness for the issues that they were dealing with and to show that we were, and not to be self-congratulatory, but to show that we were giving money to this and to raise awareness for it. Yeah. And I tell you that it felt so good to have that cherry at the end of this, you know, typically annoying and demeaning and dumb press conference where I just got besieged every day with, you know, why? Why do you hate men? Why are you doing this? Why aren't you doing that?
You're too much of this. You're not enough of that. Very typical. Don't be too pretty, don't be too loud. You're too quiet. Like, you can't win. And that was that thing that I hadn't experienced until I
was, you know, in this, this quiet radical movement that we were doing, just basically being ourselves and celebrating each other and celebrating the success that we were all having and appreciating that and lifting each other up. Again, like, why is that so radical? Why is that so threatening? It was kind of shocking. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, the press conferences were painful, but they were also
an important thing to do. I mean, you handled those conferences from what I saw really, really well. For the most part, yeah. You really did. Was it hard sometimes to be running the festival while you were in it? Because everybody else kind of gets to come in and like have a good time. I wasn't
running it. Dan Fraser was running it and he had a hell of a job. You're kind of the, you know, you're the, you know, to your point, you're on the face of it for sure. And you have to worry about stuff like, yeah, you know, it's like having the house party, right? Yeah, there were a ton of data decisions that had to be made. There were a ton of flyers that had to be put out. Someone didn't show
up. Someone, someone slept with someone else or, you know, they were just fine. And then they were like, someone was angry and heard or someone said something that hurt someone's feelings and had to deal with HR. Was there an HR? Great. You were in a band. There was a freaking HR rally.
We just like, hey, you just, you just, you put on a blazer and you're like, okay, let's talk. You know, it's like, it's kind of Julie, the cruise director, right? You know, saying hi to everybody, making sure everybody felt good writing letters to every new artist. And it's like a hundred and some artists on one year, you know, so it's just this constant flow of meeting new people and making sure everybody was great. Yeah. And then putting out the fires of the
day or just being involved in all these little decisions that come, you know, we kind of had to make on a daily basis. So yeah, it was exhausting and all encompassing. But you know, again, the gift at the end was like, I got to watch all these artists. I got to perform with all these artists. Okay. So we do this thing on the, on the pod where we ask people who know our guests to speak well
behind their back and to give me a question to ask them. So we talked to Cheryl Crow this morning. Oh my God. It was so fun. And so fun to talk to her about those times and you guys were forming together. And you know, I was saying to her, you know, it was just, it's so, it was just, you know,
it will never get old watching you all be each other's fans. You know, like, you're an artist and you're also a fan and she's such an incredible talent. And she wanted me to ask you two questions, which I thought were really interesting questions to ask. They're kind of opposite, but also feel like they're in the same world. One is if you were not making music, did you ever think of what else you would do? Ever so briefly, because I don't know what else I would do. I don't
know. Either hairdresser or a jewelry designer. Which honestly I still kind of do design. Do you design? Yeah, just really simple stuff. Like I made last two Christmas ago,
I made like 30 necklaces for all my friends and crafty. You're craft. You know, I need something to do with my hands or they're in my mouth. Yeah. I love that. Okay. And that makes sense of hairdresser too
because you like touching people's hair. Yeah, I was a dance mom for years. So I got to do all these, you know, for your daughters. Yeah. Are you good at a blow? Do a good blowout? I do pretty
good blowout. Yeah. Do you like the French braids and the Oh, you can do the intricate stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Well done. Yeah. Okay. And then so that was one question. And then the other question was,
did you have a sense? Did you know deep down, you know, people ask this question from a lot of artists, but was there some part of you that knew that you were going to make it that you were going to be famous? Was Cheryl's question? But like, was there part of you that sense that or knew that? No. No, I can honestly say no. And mostly because I didn't even know what that meant. Yeah,
I did not know what that looked like. I did not come from a culture of celebrity, of looking at famous people and, you know, hoping to achieve that. Yeah. My thing was, I want to do something that makes me feel good. Yeah. It was so naive and so simple. But it's pure.
Yeah. Yeah. And I just, you know, again, this sort of blissful time in the world where we could kind of just figure it out, figure out as we go. Yeah. Yeah. And we were, there were so many more
opportunities to just, you know, to fumble around and try and figure it out. Like, I just feel like even both my daughters, there's just so much pressure to decide what university to go to. And you kind of have to make a decision about the whole trajectory of your life. I'm like, oh my God, have my friends and my 50s still have a clue what they're doing. You know, I just got really, really lucky that I had this, you know, this path that I kind of got, I got offered the golden ticket at 19. And it's like, well, this will be fun. I'll go do this. And my dad said, listen,
if this doesn't work out, our college is still, it's always going to be there. But this will not. You got to try it. And of course, I want it to. But yeah, I didn't. It's funny in my yearbook,
someone wrote Destin to become a famous rock star, which is hilarious. And I was like, ha, ha, yeah. But we didn't know what that even looked like. I know. I know.
That's very woo. I know. Just didn't become a famous rock star. Yeah. Somebody knew. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess it's common.
Because you know, other people can see things that you can't see too often, right? And you talk about your daughters too. And I love the beautiful aspect that your daughter sings on this record with you. Yeah, that was a great full circle moment for me. Well, because they, you know, they're, they both have beautiful voices. They won't sing around me. And I guess because, you know, I sing,
and that's often the case with kids, they kind of try and go the opposite. But we cannot deny they both have beautiful voices. But this song in particular, one in the long line, it's the last song I wrote. And I think it was this, you know, looking at what's going on in the world and the erosion of women's rights not only here, but all over the world. And thinking about what do I need to say, I feel like now is not the time to be silent or complacent. Like I've always, you know,
tread that line carefully and not been political. But I have to say something about this. I'm just so frustrated and angry and scared. And I have two daughters and they're going into the world. And, you know, we need to speak loudly about the things that we believe in, even though I was afraid to.
So, and I've always used music as my vehicle for expression. So that song, to have both my daughter sing on that with me just felt really powerful. Yeah, that's so cool. Yeah. And was it like being in the studio with each other, the student? Well, we actually worked. It was in my daughter's
phone, in my daughter's bedroom on my iPhone, because it was kind of the, I wrote that song right at the end of the record. And, you know, Will was actually mixing the rest of the record and trying to organize my kids, you know, there's a bit of convincing to get them to do it in the first place. I'll do it next week, mom. And I'm like, okay, we're mixing the record. Will needs these tracks now. So we just actually sat
in the bedroom with my eldest and she sang it. She just put headphones on it. And iPhones are amazing for that now. And then, Tasha, my little one went down into the studio. She wouldn't let me near her when she did it. Yeah, I was wondering if they would let you watch. But my 23 year old, you know, just
earnest, full voice, sang right in front of me. So unintended. It was so beautiful. And this is deeply more powerful because of the challenges and the struggles that we've been through for so many years as mother and firstborn daughter. Yeah, it was tough. What have you been learning
about being the mother of daughters? Like, but what was, you know, I mean, there's so many things I could say about that. I wish I knew what I know now to be able to go back, you know, without feeling work yourself knowing what you know now. I would have been softer on her in a different way. I was a hard ass. And it's funny because I thought so clearly in my own mind that I was being the
antithesis of my mother. And I looked at the way she parented and I thought, I'm going to do everything completely different. And then her words come speaking out of your mouth in a moment of anger and frustration. Oh my God, I can't believe I did that. But I just, you know, I think she was undiagnosed. We thought she had ADHD. And you know, when things got hard, this wall would go
up and she'd just rage and be so frustrated. And so I looked at that going, how do we, how do I help you with this? How do we move passes? Because the world out there's scary and big and you have to have some grit and you have to do hard things so that you know you can. So I was tough. And what we didn't
realize is that was it was actually anxiety. And all this came out, we did family systems counseling and peeling back all those layers of the onion. The way I was communicating to her, like, she was just making her feel shitty about herself instead of building her up, which was completely the opposite of what I thought I was doing. So, you know, I had to eat a lot of humble pie and take stock and go, okay, look, I want a relationship with my kid. So I need to learn how to communicate differently with her. And in doing so, she also got to take some responsibility for the way she was
reacting and recognizing that that's not where it's coming from. And he says, it was a long process, but it was beautiful and powerful. And we have such an open, loving relationship now because of that. It's so great, Sarah, that you talk about this. I just have to say, because it's the way that women help each other constantly is to just like break free from the narrative that we are getting everything right as mothers. Like, it's, it's, it's a joke, but it's really hard. It's kind of the
last one. You watch people look at you out of the corner of the eye when you let your kid cry in the grocery grocery store floor. That's like, Oh my God, corral that kid, you're a bad parent because you're doing this, you're doing that or not doing this. It's like, again, just constant judgment and pressure and the most coming from within on ourselves. And anytime we share any version of that out loud, or just even in our friend group, like you just feel this feeling that everyone wants to say like, that's an extra, you know, like, what, you know, like it's wild how we still do this to ourselves.
Over and over and over. I mean, we get it done to us, of course, too, but we do it to our stuff. There's an alarm and there's a siren right there coming to pick us up because we're such bad moms. I mean, it's like, you see, with menopause, you know, like, there was no conversation about it. And just, you know, all the changes that we go through. And thank you. Like, I kind of love social media for
that now, because there are so many platforms that women are now talking about this and all and doctors are finally paying attention to the hundreds of thousands of women who suffered and who went through all sorts of shit and the doctors are just like, hey, you know, it's just, it's just a thing, just suck it up. Yeah, it's like, is my frozen shoulder because of menopause and doctors are like, well, never now. Yeah. No one's going to put any money towards research on that. You know, like, huh, maybe, oh, if men could bleed, you know, things would be very, very different. That would be a good
heavy metal band name. If men could bleed. A double bill of, if men could bleed and skinny puppies. Okay, I got a few rapid fire for you. Okay. Okay. First of all, how do you, what's your sleep routine?
I love to ask people this. Do you love to sleep? I love to sleep. Are you good at sleeping? I'm really, yes, I'm good at sleeping now that I'm on estrogen and progesterone. Totally because of being shit.
Yeah. That's what I went into menopause. Yeah. And do you take any sleep? Do you take anything to sleep? No. And what's your ritual to go to sleep? Well, you know what, red light therapy has been
my friend. Hold on, talk to me about it. I have, I don't know about this. I have a massage table. I basically have this six foot long panel of red light, especially because, you know, when I'm skating three hours a day, as I was doing a lot, like your body needs muscle. For the first skate skiing.
Yeah. You know, like it's like cross country. So there's classic, which is in the grooves and skate is on the corduroy. And so, you know, by afflonding like four words, I don't know. Grooves and corduroy. Are you on ice skates? No, no, it's like, it's like cross country skiing.
It's on these little matchsticks. Okay. And you just, you kind of, they're long like cross country skates, but instead of being in the two, you just said skates again. So you're on skates or skates? They're skates skis. So what they are is a very narrow, long ski. We don't have those here.
You do not. I've been to Colorado in the home years in a row of skates. So you do. Okay. Okay. It's a big thing. That's incredible. So it's so fun. I just, I love, I love being outdoors.
I love nature. I would be outside all the time if I could. It just gets a little too cool, but, you know, to be able to be for four hours outside in the snow, in the mountains, like just finding frozen lakes and going on. Like it's magical and the coolest part, but where I live is to take my dogs. That's awesome. Yeah. So we're doing a lot of that. So you're skating too. Yes. I can
exhaust myself if I can. That's right. Climbing hills or climbing hills or whatever. So I spend like 15 minutes before I go to bed just lying under this lake. Cause it just calls. And it's just a red light.
Yeah. Red light therapy. Oh, infrared. You heal faster. I'm serious. I want to these red lights.
So I do that not every night, but most nights. I don't really have much of a ritual. I try to stop drinking water around five o'clock. So I have to get up in the middle of my pee. Oh, yeah.
So I front load. Yeah. As best in my abilities. But you should go to bed around nine. Oh, that's what I'm talking about. That's kind of it. There's nine PM. That is a winner. That's a winner. I mean,
honestly, 10 is probably a little more realistic. But I try to go to bed at nine, especially in the winter. And I'll shut it down. I'm going to go to bed after 10. Not much. Not especially when you
get up at six. Shut it down. Go ahead at nine. Wake up at six. Feel like a hero. Give me eight hours
of solid sleep. I am so much less than a hundred. My dream is to eat dinner at six 30 and then five walk right into the bedroom. The early bird special. I tried to eat around five five 30.
And then just start down and shut her down. Okay. Rapid fire. Here we go. Who do you predict is going to be your Spotify? Ratch this year? Like who are the musicians you're listening to the most on your,
like if we were Phoebe Bridge? Ah, yeah, the best or boy genius or, you know, would definitely be it would be on like a current version of little affair. Yeah. Existed one. In some ways boy genius is the area. You got three amazing musicians, singer, songwriters,
independently unique and beautiful, all choosing to come together to be a powerhouse. Yes. Best Canadian city. Oh, I'm going to get in trouble. Vancouver. What's the best thing about
being Canadian and not American? That is so baiting. Sorry. Forget it. Forget it. Forget it.
Yeah. Healthcare. Yeah. Healthcare. Surfing or paddle boarding. Surfing. So you surf. Yeah. When
surfing so 30. And then you were on SNL and Rudy Giuliani was the host. Oh my God. I remember that. Yeah. So it was Sarah McLaughlin, Rudy Giuliani in 19 back again in 1997. Yeah.
What do you remember about your experience? Was that the only time you were on SNL? I feel maybe like I was on twice, but I'm not sure. Honestly, I remember what I remember as Anaganster and like, you know, based in blood doing that. That was, I don't know if that was really cool. Were you on the show and Anna did the Lilith? Not the Lilith one. No, but based in blood,
which was the Thanksgiving song? I got to participate in that. You were in that? I was in it. Yeah.
Okay. This is really interesting. Anna used to play a character on SNL called Cinder Cal. Who was a very earnest, you know, kind of like, Cinder song. Progressive singer, songwriter.
And she sang a song called Basted in Blood. Let's watch it. Anna is such a good singer. Oh my God. This is so good. I remember this. Oh my God. This is so good.
Well, I'm so grateful that you came here. You're always ahead of your time. And I can't wait to see what you do next and congrats on all the good things that are happening now. And it means a lot that you came by. So thank you so much. Happy to be here. Wow. Thank you so much, Sarah McLaughlin. You are
so cool and interesting and so fun to talk to. And it really took me down memory lane there. And, you know, for this polar plunge, I just wanted to remind everybody how badass Pat Benatar is. That's all. Just how amazing her voice is and how great of an artist she is. And like Sarah has
just always been this, you know, woman kind of making music on her own terms. And she was, I think probably Pat Benatar and New Edition were my first two concerts I saw when I was in middle school. And I saw Pat Benatar at the Orpheum in Boston in, I don't know, I think maybe I was a freshman in high school. And her husband, Neil Giraldo, lead guitarist, still together. So anyway, that's all. Just using this time to say Pat, if you're listening, I love you. Please
come on the show. And everybody else listening. Here's to all the great music we had growing up and all the great music we have now and all the great music yet to come. Music will save us. Okay, bye!