SBAE Teacher Performance and Program Quality

I'm Brian Myers. I'm Mike Ritalik. I'm Becky Hideoed. And this is Al pellets, a podcast featuring tips for ad teachers.

We are your agricultural education resource across the web, sharing research based tips and tackling the tough questions facing agriculture teachers every day. Hey, Al pellets. This is Brian Becky and Mike here by the Al pellet. And you know, we bring back some all stars and we have an all star with us here today.

Hey, me training. Thank you so much for being here. You you might have the award of the most frequent guest on Al pellets. I think might.

Yeah, I would have to claim what a CD is everybody. And she'll charge for autographs. Everyone needs a side hustle. Yeah.

And we bring it back and talk to us. And the reason the reason you're probably one of the most frequent guests here on Al pellets is you do phenomenal work. And you see that, build it up, build it up, there's how this works folks pay attention, take notes. So but hey, this is really cool stuff.

You're gonna be talking today about teacher performance and program quality. You've got a whole team of folks that you work with on this. Tell us a little bit about how this collection of superheroes was brought together to tackle this problem. And then what you guys ended up doing?

No problem. Well, I've got some cool folks from across the country that I want to give a shout out to at Osborne, Richard Roberts, Travis Park and Ashley Yap. And essentially, we got together after a conference a few years ago. And when I was talking about creating boundaries for ed teachers and how to support them in that.

And they said, yeah, what you're doing is cool. How can I be part of it? And so we we thought about this project and really one of our goals was to find additional evidence to this growing concern about teacher workload. We've seen in previous studies and our work and others work about this growing list of expectations.

And a lot of times that was from the teacher's perspective and standpoint. So they're saying there's expectations are growing. We wanted to look at state expectations of act teachers. So what actually exists out there?

What documents exist that tell our teachers what they should be doing and how well and how they actually being measured for their performance. So that was kind of how this whole thing was conceived. So I keep going. Okay, I'm gonna keep going.

Okay, just a second. But I want to know and I don't remember whether within here or not how many different documents and how many independent standards out of all the things that you pulled together. Oh, I know actually included in the paper, but hundreds of hundreds. So the actual the analysis part was really agonizing in that sense, because we wanted to like metrics or standards together without losing some of the nuance.

But yeah, we're talking hundreds across the state. So so kind of to backdrop a little bit, we send out this massive email, we're asking state leaders, state leaders of ag ed, state of favor, really anyone in leadership positions in ag ed to send any documents that they have that measure teacher performance or maybe specific expectations or any type of metrics or standard program standards. We got 48 responses. And let's see, we had 20 states give us specific list of standards for their state related to school based ag ed.

17 had no documents that they use or existed at the end of six states use the national quality program standards. And then a handful of them had just generic CTE related standards lists. So the actual documents range quite a bit, like Tennessee, for example, was just one page of expectations and Arizona with 124 pages of expectations, which I know four, four, Arizonians, I don't know that they say. So we were going through these docs, Arizona nights, we were going through these documents and I have to tell you, it was incredibly overwhelming.

Reading these lists of expectations for our teachers, I'm not even an active or anymore. And I was, I had to take a break, because it was just the volume of things of expectations, the standard of metrics, it was who's a lot. So that's something that I do want to point out is that that will allow them. And I thought about the ag teacher who would be reading those, you know, what are they thinking when they read these lists?

How is that making them feel? How is that making them behave? And what does that do to the way they go about their job? So we went through and kind of did a content analysis, which really what we're looking at for our patterns, similarities, and we have some categories of expectations that were pretty common throughout each C.

And they weren't really surprised, you saw just review them, there was a section on teacher qualifications. So what does it take to be qualified for an teacher? What are the engagement expectations to be a professional? And how you engage with other professionals?

There were a few standards on instruction and instructional practices. There was of course a section on program design for the Ag program, and then how to manage your program. And then lastly, stakeholder outreach and engagement. And if you look in the paper, you can see kind of some pretty typical standards about what it takes to be an active to what some of those expectations are.

But that's not quite the most fascinating finding I think of this study. So pause there. And do one. Wow, a cliffhanger in the middle in the middle of a podcast.

I was like break for commercial. That was going to be my point. Now we can start monetizing this with a commercial. Yeah, we have nothing to commercial.

Okay, so here's the big takeaway that I found really fast. One was that a lot of these documents did not clearly delineate who this was for. So they sometimes they talk about this as the teacher performance evaluation. And then sometimes it was the program.

But that was pretty unclear throughout the maybe been a few states who have really clear delineations. But most of the time they talked about the teacher performance and the program performance interchangeably. I find that to be problematic because I think an ad program often is bigger than it is. It should be it might be.

It should be bigger than just the Ag teacher. You have your board of advisors, you have alumni, you have parents, you have community members, you have volunteers. And so so kind of to put it all together and put that on the expectation that the teacher and that's how they are evaluated, I think can be really hard on the teacher and maybe not very sustainable. Well, even beyond that, when even from the like, okay, this is a lot for one person to do, like certainly that's not the piece.

But when I think about programming performance, so much of where my program should do really well is in what the kids do. And if there's such an expectation as it might success, hinging on a program where kids are going to rotate through every four years and they're going to mess up like 14 to 18 year old, like they're going to screw it up. It's going to take some time to develop and learn how to do some of those things. But it's going to eat, there may be some very public things that like, Oh, shoot, yep, we messed that up, we got to go fix that.

If that really enmeshed in my performance, how do I like to learn through their program involvement? Like that really seems to kind of take away from what my students can experience and really where they're supposed to get to develop into these programs and opportunities. I love that. Yeah, it makes me think back to, you know, when we were really emphasizing standardized testing that a lot of teachers got in trouble because they were feeding, you know, the answers to the students.

And yeah, that's a problem. But also they were being measured on student performance. So in a way, it makes sense. And yeah, I think a lot of that kind of plays in here.

Well, I mean, Haley, you know, I've been in this professional long time, not nearly as long as my Cretallic has been in it. But you go around and some people will talk and I've heard people say, you know, you can't have standards for programs because it's all about local local programming. We've got to meet the local needs. And so there's nothing nothing similar to one program to the next.

And then there's other side that I've heard people that are spec very well said, yeah, but there are some basic things that probably should be the standard of ways to talk about measuring agate programs, no matter which you're in Florida or Oregon or wherever else. What what all do you guys find out about these documents and maybe you, maybe the states that didn't have anything were telling us what they thought about that. Largely they didn't. And I think that's certainly a need if we're going to have any type of framework, if we find if we think that that's important for our profession for this field, for the discipline, we have to have a conversation.

What are those standards that would make an ad program and ad program and for an ad teacher, an ad teacher, not just another content teacher. So one of those areas of distinction is looking at maybe national standards, but then also emphasizing local community needs. So maybe the standards are written broadly that showcase that instead of kind of these check mark things that we saw in these documents. Yeah, I think that's a work of conversation.

And something we kind of get to at the end of the papers, our evaluation documents or our standards or the solicitation is that important to us? Does it have use? Does it have value? And if it does, then let's take it seriously and do a good job with it.

I think that goes to one of my questions and it's too full. It's looking backwards and it's going to be looking forward. But it goes to your comments there, Haley, as well as what Ryan was just talking about. But how were these documents being used?

And so were they just put up there as guidance? Was it part of an annual or regular performance review of the program or the teacher? What how were they how were they being used? And then looking forward, how should we be thinking about using such documents going forward?

If at all. Good question. So we took clues from the documents and documents themselves, we didn't actually ask the people who sent them to us about how they use it. So that's kind of a missing piece of study.

However, based on the way that they were laid out, some kind of language on the documents, a lot of it was in the form of a rubric. So they were being evaluated by very spoke. So some of them were self evaluation by the teacher. A lot of them were based on a CTE coordinator or some sort of leader of CTE in the local region to evaluate the teacher program.

Both a lot of them were tied to funding. So I know that very state to state, but you would get points dot based on, yeah, and that would influence the funding that you received. A lot of them were quite punitive, asking for evidence, justification, very few of them were framed from a tool to use to check in with yourself and with your program and make recommendations or have conversations about how things are going. It's very much just a static kind of evaluative document.

And that's fine. I think we probably need some sort of expectations, but I would love to see if we have something like this, something that is more dynamic, something that's used just as a tool between a leader in the profession or a CTE director, whoever kind of is supervising you to have a conversation about how things are going, what's working well, what do we need to take off our plates? How can we shift? Are we aligned with our community needs for those types of conversations that they would be really beneficial if we were to have some of these documents?

I hear maybe a little bit of what's the reason what expectation for maybe how long your teachers have been in your community or how long they've been in the profession. If you mentioned earlier, like there's not really when we talk about who is it for when we talk about what is the expectation? Is the expectation the same for somebody who has just started compared to somebody who's been in their community for 10 plus years? Oh, MG, that's my second knowledge bomb.

I almost got to say, guys, I almost got it. So here's the real here's the finding that really that I struggle with. And that was, I think there was one city and I should find it so I can get them right. I think it's Illinois.

One one little standard I'm talking one sentence out of the thousands of review, one of those delineated expectations by years of profession. So what that means is any actor who's getting these documents in front of them. And again, we don't know the extent that they see these for you, them. But any actor there first year or a 30 year veteran actor, they have the same expectations.

And you might be thinking, huh, why is that important? Well, look at any other profession, any other job. And you don't have the same expectations for entry level or beginners as you do folks who've been in their career for 25 years. So I find that to be quite problematic.

And I would love to, I would love to see some sort of distinction. Like, what are we expecting actors first year, I teachers 30 year, I teachers, maybe in the 10 to 15 year, how can we gradually have them take on more expectations or different ones so that they can say in professional order? Why are we expecting first year at teacher performed at the same level as their veteran peers? How does that contribute to the larger conversation about teacher attrition and the teacher shortage?

Yeah, a lot of questions. But I find that's really interesting that that was very common throughout all these documents that are used. Hey, I believe you were missing form. We asked the question, you're supposed to have the answers.

I have the answer. Oh, I asked questions now. Hey, the researcher. You go more questions than we started with it.

But I think that you raise a great point. But then you go back to something Becky said earlier, it was about student outcomes. And as a parent, I mean, I'm going to have the same expectations for my student to have the teacher they have in class with the first year or 20 year ag teacher. So it is someone who has expectations up a little bit, maybe unfairly to do this.

We don't we don't have a promotion system for teachers in the school systems. You know, we don't even extend it. We got to extend it as one, two, three, four, we've got a system associate full professors, you've got, you know, the assistant manager, the assistant to the district manager, all those sort of things that are out there. But that might be something we're missing from the entire teaching profession, not just my teachers.

I feel like this is a perfect segue into Becky's next projects. I talk about like all the time. Yeah, absolutely right. struggle with that a lot thinking about what is the career ladder for a career teacher and an opportunities there and what is the motivation in the next step in their career?

Yeah, even here the difference in our conversation where somebody says profession and somebody says career and some of like, those apply really different things when we talk about having an apprenticeship program for teachers like apprenticeship happen to trace like we have a residency is for doctors like when we think about like what teaching compares to you as a profession and so often the sorry, Haley, I am totally stealing your show. Let me talk about those things. We talk about like where what do you compare teaching to? We borrow interventions from professions and from different careers all the time without really thinking about okay, but a lot of what's actually going to make that worthwhile is not embedded in the teaching profession as it's currently structured.

I think we're talking about some great things here. To kind of to wrap up up here, we're not going to quit right now, but to kind of to land this thing and look, I have read some phenomenal research by somebody talking about sitting boundaries for teachers. I highly recommend you read it sometime, something by this had that in trainee. How does a conversation around helping teachers set boundaries?

How should that be thought about as we as leaders or whoever's trying to build up these expectations of the state state state benchmarks and quality program markers that we're talking about here? How do we have both of those things that are ahead at the same time understanding to help teachers set boundaries at the same time, we're trying to help set you know, I teach your performance and program quality standards. Because one way, one could say those conflict with each other. But how do you see them working together?

I think there needs to be way more clarity on expectations, right? We can have expectations back if you're anti ones. I have no problem with that. Where I do have a problem is where does it end?

And that's where the boundary piece comes in is how to empower our teachers to give in their expectation, say, this is what I'm doing to meet those expectations. And this is what I'm not doing because when you take on more and more and more, you don't do anything well. And it's not just the work performance, it's your physical, your mental health, your family, your marriage, etc. So you can kind of look at that way.

So what are looking and clarity on the expectations, even in your own program, if you want to teach your teacher, get your advisor, work together, your principal together, have some convenient conversations about, okay, what are the expectations? What's important to us? What are we going to do for the next five years and even make a strategic plan? And what are we going to do to fulfill those expectations?

But then also make a list, what are we not going to do and be very purposeful and have as much intention with what you're not going to do as what you're going to do with what you are going to do? And I think that the what you're not going to do that piece is missing. We have so many incredible activities and programs in added more than any one person can do, any one program can do. If you choose what you're going to do and be intentional about that, you're going to have better student outcomes, right?

You're going to have better quality life, probably more fulfilling career than if you're doing all the things. So I think that would be my suggestion to frame that conversation. And I would encourage a conversation around that for all like teachers, because as I reflect on this, if we think about education as a career as a profession, it has very few natural boundaries, like perhaps other careers might. And so can you have you are accountable to so many people, your students, the parents, administrators, community, alumni, and advisory board, other, you know, and it just goes on and on.

And so if because of that, I think it's incumbent on us to really have some serious conversations about what those boundaries look like. Otherwise, we'll do what many of us do, we get really efficient and successful at something. And all of a sudden, we realize we have a couple extra minutes of time. And so what do we do?

We add something else to our plate. And I think that really goes to trace these comments about, you know, having that list of what what no things we're going to have there. I think part of it too is interesting too from your work is how those state standards are used. Because I'm with you 100% are they used for me to have a conversation to say, here's what I want to grow in here's thing I'm going to do I'm not going to do or are they attached to points that end up adding to dollars to my program and then it becomes a game and any most actually to play that game, you give me a form and I can thousand years ago, I did that in Illinois, we had this little thing out how to fill out our form and you want more X's because HX is up equally as so many dollars to your program afterwards, you're like, all right, on this form, if I do this thing now, I'm going to get 10 more X to end up with more money to do that.

And so you can actually those standards can be used for good or for evil. And so they how as state leaders, how are you framing that to support your teachers and send those boundaries and still meeting those high expectations, which can be done. Once again, Hale, you have guided us through a tremendous conversation. And again, one more that has more questions and answers.

But I know that you and your team are going to continue to work on that and help guide us through the profession, having these conversations. So, Haley, once again, thank you for being with us here today on Al Pilots. And I look forward to everybody's interaction on social media as this podcast and all the various things go out. So thanks, Haley.

Yeah, thanks for having me. It's going to be fun. You hope you've enjoyed this episode of Al Pilots. Check out our website for more information on this topic and to learn more about our guests.

Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram to stay connected. And be sure to subscribe to our podcast. So you'll never miss an episode. For Mike and Becky, this is Brian here by the Al Pilots saying thank you and we look forward to seeing you again on another episode of Al Pilots tips for Ag teachers.