Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)

Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert experts on expert. I'm Dan Shepherd and I'm joined by Monica Padman. Woo. Woo.

900. I'm so delighted to announce this episode, 900 because I'm a bad exaggerated. As you know, I actually know I'm not even a bad exaggerated. I'm an exaggerated and it doesn't even make sense because it's a marginal exaggeration.

The other day I was listening to our show and we had a guest and we're talking about Sedaris and I said, Oh, yeah, he's been on six times and as I was listening, I was like, I know he's been on five times. Yeah. Why would I have said six? Six isn't better than five.

This is a good thing to know about yourself. So I'm a 20% exaggerated, but I've been saying we're like, Oh, well, I've done eight hundred and fifty of these or whatever, but it actually is nine hundred nine hundred today. I was saying a thousand. Oh, God.

Well, you do not get to say that until we've really done it. That's a huge mark. That's a commitment. I'll make it public.

OK. Now let me ask you this, this guest who I was, I couldn't say yes to fast enough. Yes. Were you a little bit like, Oh, I don't know.

Yeah. Well, sure. This episode is fucking riveting. Yeah.

Oh my God. It is so good. Yeah, we started the episode and I was like, Oh, boy, I don't know. And then I was so in.

It's so fascinating. You're right. Right. I think your heart rate had you been wearing a monitor.

I do think your heart rate would have hit one thirty at one point. Yes. This felt like listening to Armstrong anonymous. We're getting like these crazy stories.

It was so good. He's so cool. And who is he Scott Payne Scott Payne is a retired FBI special agent who spent 28 years in law enforcement, investigating cases against drug trafficking organizations, human traffickers, outlaw motorcycle clubs, gangs, public corruption, and domestic terrorists. He hated this when I said it, but everywhere you read about him, he is definitely the second or tied with the most famous undercover FBI agent of all time with Donnie Brisco famous, Donnie Briscoe.

His book is called Codename Palhorse, how I went undercover to expose America's Nazis. And there's also a podcast that he was on that led to the book, which is also great. It's a Canadian broadcast production called White Hot Hate and the second season is called Palhorse on which he participates quite a bit. This was unbelievable.

So good. Yes. Please enjoy Scott Payne. He's an untracked son.

Nice lot. By the way. Oh, thank you. It's so funny because I live in Hill Country or even if you're down in South Carolina around Charleston, it's just trees and green.

So you don't even know what's on the other side of that hitch. You turn the corner, you're like, Oh my gosh, like four malls and everything else. That's what I picture here because you see a fancy you don't know when you go and you got a nice size. Well, I was good.

Well, I'm from Michigan and I grew up in a Hillbilly area outside of Detroit. And so yeah, I have in a big yard is everything. Yeah, you're in South Carolina? No, I'm in Knoxville, Tennessee.

Oh, you're in Knoxville. And they built a fucking racetrack between Knoxville and Nashville, right? Yes, those are my friends. What's it called?

It's called Flat Rock. I was there. It wasn't a grand opening, but we went out there. So I've helped Red Bull racing a lot.

My friends are really connected with a nitro circuit. So we went out there when it was just dirt, but it's a big deal. They all got jammed up on a hit and run. Oh, recently leaving the scene.

No, I mean, you only run. I think I hit something. Well, should we go a little double check? Should we find out a little reverse?

Maybe not a reverse. Maybe just pause. Let me get out. Look.

Oh my god. OK, so you're from those South Carolina. Yeah, born and raised in South Carolina. And did you not want to retire there?

No, because when you get a chance to transfer in the FBI, you go to the headquarters division. I don't know what the RAs out of L.A.R. But let's just say you're in Tennessee. Yeah, it was Knoxville's headquarters city.

But out of Knoxville, you've got Chattanooga as a resident agency. They're satellite offices. We had one of Oak Ridge for a while. We got Johnson City.

So Columbia in South Carolina is the headquarters city. I was raised in the upstate and I also lived and played ball and bounced down in Charleston. So for me, I either want the mountains or I want the beach. I don't want the center of South Carolina.

Right. No offense to anybody who loves it there. But we call it the armpit of South Carolina because that's the hottest point. You should call it the crotch if you've got like mountains, the tank.

That's a charm to it. That's where you were at South Carolina. But I didn't really care about going back to Greenville, even though I love it. That's where I grew up.

You were out of Knoxville office for a lot of your work and then built a life in the house about property there. I assume. Yes, I was a cop in Greenville, South Carolina. Last two years, I was a Boston College Investigator.

I get hired by the FBI, my first office in New York City. Oh, wow. I'm at 26th Fed and I was still assigned there when 9-11 happened. It's just a day of 9-11.

I was undercover in San Antonio, Texas. What age was that? I came in the Bureau at 28, so 29-30. In high school, you're working for your dad.

You're playing football. You're lifting weights. You're a musician, right? You're in the guitar.

So you have your first taste of undercover working high school. I think that's a good story. Well, I like it because there's a noble cause behind it. Yeah, in the book process, I had to dive deep.

You're just getting asked these questions. Hey, I'm going to tell you my blocks of instruction, the things I teach. This is what I've learned. Here's mistakes I made.

Let's try to spread knowledge. I'm still trying to learn. But then you dive into, well, let's talk about you growing up. And then somewhere in that process, where there was my co-writer at the literary agency, they were like, what do you think's your first undercover?

And I was like, the thing that's popping in my head is high school. My first two years of high school, my vice principal, Lloyd Walker. Short-stancer black guy, kind of balding. Very similar looking like Mr.

Jefferson. It's kind of insane suits. I don't know what it was. I felt like he did not like me.

I felt like he rode my tail. But then again, I was a loud mouth teenage kid, boy with testosterone wearing sleeveless shirts, and the ungardless gloves, and things you're not supposed to do. And he didn't wear them weightlifter gloves in high school. We got to give her eye on.

Yeah. Let's just be realistic. Throw a spot bracelet. Yeah.

We need to just be aware of the real quarters. That's a brass knuckles. Which I don't even know what I care about. Oh, yeah.

Butterfly nine. Yeah. Me and the other guys. Yeah.

Slap jack. Yeah. I still got one. So I felt like he was riding my tail.

And then I was in a band called Shade of Dream. We had a talent show. But my maturity was very, very low. Experience was because I don't be playing cake parties.

So if you're up there doing pretty woman or hopper teacher and you grab your crotch, all of Michael Jackson or something like that, you get a huge roller. Everybody's drunk. It's 80s. So now we're playing at a talent show where people are coming to see their kids play the violin, do magic tricks, karate tricks, subatana, hoes, gospel stuff.

And here we come out. I'm grabbing my crotch way more than I thought I was. Clearly I was nervous. I knew I did it when I said hopper teacher.

But apparently I was doing it. I didn't know I did. So they closed the curtain homes. It's very PBish.

They're curtain closes. And they're trying to cut the power. And me and the bass player feel our heads up. And they shut it off.

The principal was Ms. Workman. She came out and my mother was there. My mother's a rock star.

I'm her baby boy. Yeah, only child to me. I'm a child. We're out there in the foyer.

And everybody's like, oh man, that was awesome. Here comes Ms. Workman. And she's like, I'm going to expel you.

And she looks at my mother. She goes, you're his mother? She says, yes. She goes, did you see what your son did on stage?

And my mom was like, yes. It's just all right. And I'm like, I'm on. And I'm going to find another school.

So fast forward to Monday, I get called in to my principal's office and Mr. Walker. And I know Mr. Walker shame.

You're never calling everything good, at least in my experience. All right. So I go in there and he's like, when you talk about what happened, I'm already protesting. I'm like, I know people said I did this, but I didn't do it that bad.

This is BS. You're always on my back, whatever I'm saying. Because I'm a young idiot. He had a VCR tape for the listeners.

They used to be VCR tapes. But he pops in the VCR tape. And I'm watching it. And I'm going, oh, you see, really for the first time.

I'm like, I got some conviction. I'm like, oh my gosh. That's going to look like OK. Why did I even take my hand off?

Could I just look at it the whole time? And laughing, I don't know if that was a catalyst, but after that, it was like, we were buddies. Or as close as you could be, my principal in a student. And then we get to the part in the book where he calls me in his office one day.

And he says, hey, man, did you hear about what happened to me? And I was like, yes, I did. Because I could drop past this house a lot. It was near my neighborhood.

It wasn't like somebody took toilet paper and rolled his trees. They key his car, they sprayed painted his car, sprayed painted his car. And they're just bad. Yeah.

angle slaughters. Ah, my car. It's like a forest for you here. We're talking South Carolina.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it takes a lot of get out of that culture and in some places you still don't out of it you get out there in the rural areas And you're like but he's all something in me through this process.

I finally realized it's just me connecting the people It's not blaming him because I don't look like I'm a beta club member But in the 80s you had a smoking area I could go in there and hang out. Yeah, I was a job I could hang out with all the jocks I could hang out with musicians. Yeah, the burnouts pot hits I could hang out with others. I mean I smoked back then yes That's how I hung out with him I was even on the beta club So I was a weird fit but he must have seen something and he asked me if I'd be willing to help him try to figure out I did this because he pretty sure somebody from school has a beef with him and I said absolutely man That's wrong with they did some people we want to call it snitch and whatever.

No, I'm doing the right thing I'm fighting a good fight even at a young age so I start working crowds something simple like my other gym Hey, man. I was going yes, you didn't bully me. You know what happened? Mr.

Walker Yeah, man, that's crazy. I did that in every circle and not like suspicious I don't think but there was one dude we'd start talking and man his whole body language You got to go by the baseline, right? If you're always looking up when you answer doesn't mean you're lying That's your baseline, right? Yes, but if you never do it and now I'm seeing different things it's usually because you're thinking and you're trying to make up something This dude did the homestance Well, you get super aware of everything you're doing you have a level of self-consciousness all of a sudden And you do the back away sink into the shrubs here, you know, and I noticed that I don't think they've depended on him But this part in the book I know that that kid slashed the tires on my car We were at a night event it might have been another talent show But I came out and my color supreme was flat and I was very angry and when you told the principal he was like yeah That's who I think they probably called him in a question them But it was clear if he didn't do it.

He definitely had something to do right mr. Walker was like, yeah I just recently whatever he did maybe that kid got two weeks of after school suspension or something But he had just gotten in trouble right most likely it was him and some friends outside of our high school But my tires got slashed and I was pretty sure it was him and then one day in school I went after I waited for class to start I went down to his classroom I opened the door and I started busting through this back and people out of the way going at him He ran into there was a room in the back of that classroom where they did like a newspaper Which is where his girlfriend worked and of course like I said to the principal's office and he was lenient Yeah, mr. Well, yeah, I'm gonna have to yell I'm gonna start thinking of connecting with people not that I'm necessary this evening, but I'm trying to find out information Okay, so you go away to college. You're not majoring in psychology.

You get a degree in psychology I'll major in criminal justice minor in psychology. Okay, I could have had a double major two more classes Okay, I had a double major to punch with on my back for six hours Oh, really? So you might have been a job as a police officer. Yes, first I came out of college with a three-eight average my last two years On the Dean's list playing NCAA football, but in South Carolina at that time for whatever reason four different departments told me I did really really well.

They would love to have me, but they weren't hiring like us and I said I've been nice to know before I graduated. So how did you end up? I kept applying I was already bouncing at gentlemen's clubs I'm using air quotes. Sorry if I'm offending you, but You can be honest here.

There are no gentlemen in those clubs and either was out back then. It's funny you bring that up I was just watching a documentary and it was this story this guy who had seen a guy beating the shit out of his girlfriend on the side of the road then called the cops that guy ended up having killed the woman but in his statement to the cop because they're now Playing the audio on the documentary he goes well the gentleman was hitting the girl Okay, so how long are you there and when at that job do you start dabbling in undercover stuff? I graduate college I can't get a job. I was actually overqualified to be a mall cop They wouldn't hire me so I took a job as a security officer for two months Maybe and then I said I can't do I'm going back to bounce I went to a large country club in North Charleston We had a law enforcement presence there We all got certified and pressure points and control tactics by the state of South Carolina through law enforcement So now I'm starting to get more exposed and I don't want it to be a cop and I get hired by Green Bull County Sheriff's office So I go back home and I'm uniformed patrol for three years and then my last two years I was able to become a vice-in-or-cotics investigator and that's when I now go back to Columbia to the South Carolina criminal justice Academy I get certified and undercover techniques.

How long is that program? That was just a one week school. Oh, really? Yeah, what are they telling you in there seems like a lot to learn in a week?

There's a lot of role play in how to commit to your story other kind of stuff I don't even remember there if we really focused on backstory or not that came in the FBI because once I got back to North college even if I was doing the undercovers, it's not deep undercover I'm making a couple of buys and we're doing jump out for I may be hopping in the car with the source Also, how hard is it when you're in the town that you work in? Very hard. Yeah, I know you that is a huge issue on the state and local level Because if I'm in Green Bull County, let's just say you get threatened Green Bull County number one don't have it in their budget Number two, they're not gonna spend money to move me outside of the county I work for Green Bull County. How many ways can I shake my facial hair?

Right here on my head if I have it and it's very thin now. I'm hanging on the window. I'm in a battle myself. Oh, man.

I'll really I'll be a CPI sales next week and take one and I think I'm gonna get on the shoot time. See if it does anything So I start getting that bug first thing I did was they rolled me down to a drug corner in a high traffic and drug area and Here I am probably two hundred seventy pounds I do not look like I smoke crack and I'm going down there to ask for a 20. Yes, it was a $20 for a crack rock I was so scared I was scared on multiple fronts because number one I didn't want to embarrass myself in front of the gurus that are training me Number two, I'm just scared cuz I'm with the I go down there and they're like, oh, you got these roll up. They're gonna rush your car and you just tell me you want a 20 So they come up and I crack the window.

I'm so scared. I put the 20 through the window. I get the vending machine He's like what you want? Yeah, I'm like a 20 Yeah, he takes the 20 and he yells at me to roll the window down because he can't hand me the door to the window So I started getting that bug and I started learning but to the question you ask I hope it's changed now I still teach in our products officers associations and conferences I need to ask this question for the next one, but you come in as a fresh face So as a fresh face you can go by on the corners hop in with the source But after a while, that's your county or your city you go to court before long everybody knows now You have the wisdom and you can make great cases in that unit But a lot of times they'll kick you out to bring in a fresh face But that fresh face has no experience working this stuff So you gotta have some kind of transition or oversight once I got in the FBI and I learned about the undercover program You get certified and we can go anywhere right so how do you end up at the FBI because I want to get into some of these cases I remember sitting with my sergeant on the surveillance.

He was a commander card sergeant kill it former Marine Fu Manchu look like a Bulldog like a bulldog. I think you've had a bulldog on his own. Sure. He's committed.

Maybe you went to Georgia Maybe That's right. No Roll ties usually sufficient to get a pissed off I Sitting with him one day and he says hey my name was at point was King fan He just came in I was your age I had a degree I was single man. I'd apply with the FBI and I put New York in my first office I was like what in the hell wrong? Are you kidding me really?

I only thought the FBI work like bank robberies I know they worked drugs and everything else I started doing research and I applied with them first because I was told They were the hardest to get hard back there I never got a chance to fill out dia's or the marshals or anybody else So I just kept going I would pass phase one and then it's a lot of techers and physical fitness And then you pass phase two and then you get a slot as an agent in Quantico Wow, so I go to Quantico's 98 I leave the sheriff's office. Are you married yet or anything? You have nothing tiny done. I got a bass Hang on the truck.

Okay. I found out two months in that I was going to New York City I started meeting my PD. I was like we drive I go a big shift standard cab for my foot truck with a shotgun rack And I got a bass and I'm gonna be with there So I lived right on the river in Jersey. I was just north of the Empire State Bill back then I smoked cigarettes and every night I'd be out there like my dog out smoking cigarette and watch the lights cut off on the top That's the view it's very surreal so I start working there and I land this class back Yes, and I get approved to be the undercover after about 30 to 90 days I became the primary which means now I'm there full-time they ended up writing me in for a specially transfer because we didn't How long is undercover is gonna go on and that's how I got down to McAllen, Texas once that was over then I got a slot in the Undercover School.

Okay, so over the years you've been in over a dozen of these long-term deep undercover situations probably my greatest interest Off in toss by 30 was outlaw biker gangs. I was obsessed with the Hells Angels I've read so many books about them and you went undercover with that was yeah I'm right there with you I read them all to three can keep a secret of two of them or day a hundred times I'm someone yeah, okay, so the outlaws for people who don't know that's real as it gets it's the Hells Angels not laws And those two have always been embroiled in probably the biggest war there's a large four but they're at the top With the Vargo it usually goes Hells Angels outlaws maybe pagans after that and I'm trying to remember I think Mongols are small Mongols Yeah, I'm sorry Banditos are huge It's probably Hills Angels outlaws Banditos pagans but nearly every time you read about a shootout a casino shoot out at bike week That was her involve could be there for real. I will say it depends on the chapter, but yes, okay That's fair of you Balushi brought one of his Hells Angels friends out on stage during when they say good night Oh, he also had fear come on Balushi did a lot of weird shit, but he got the band fear to play He also brought out Hells Angels He was on an elevator going up in 30 Rock and two outlaws got in the elevator with him and said we don't want to see that on TV again That's like one of his stories that makes sense. Yeah, okay So tell me that respect that tell me that because my understanding of his you got a pro be for like a year in most of these clubs Right usually the bylaws would say six months, but because of law enforcement infiltration I've heard of some say you got to be a hang around for two years You can even prospect a probate and then that's gonna be a year process So now you've got three years in it before you're even wearing a patch Yes, so how it was a different thought process because I'm not knocking anybody who's gained a patch my ego one of the patch Of course, I would love to have that cut hanging But here's what I can tell you there have been hundreds of law enforcement officers who have patched into biker clubs One percent of biker clubs and a lot of times the cases didn't work because you got to do enough shit to be in What's it mean?

What's what mean the path? So if you want to join the house angels, you're gonna be a pro be for at least a year You go on all the camping trips like a rookie. Yeah, you get your ass kick You do all the shit work hazing and at the end of this experience They will vote you in or out if they vote you out They keep your bike in your shit and they tell you get the fuck out of town if they invite you in you get the patch And once you put the patch on if I'm at a bar and I want to fight out Hells Angels I have to say please take your jacket off because if I don't and I try to fight a guy with the patch on I'm fighting whole club Those are the rules. I'm saying all this girl If you go far back in all the writings got read just like you've read 70s 80s you see that kind of stuff But the patch is your cut so you're gonna have a top rocker and that's gonna say outlaws MC or Hells Angels MC And then the middle piece is gonna be the deathhead for Hells Angels Or it's gonna be Charlie for the outlaws which is two cross pistons and a skull they prefer to the skull is Charlie Then you have your bottom rocker that bottom rocker is generally your state So that's when you start getting into stuff territory wise.

It's not your chapter It's your state state like Boston Boston was weird cuz Boston and south of Boston was out law territory Boston and north of Boston Was has angels territory right so you get in the big areas like that or Florida Florida has a lot of California's amounts Yeah, it's a big state. I mean it's a great rotten state with great weather. I also get three way for drugs and criminal activity So how did you get ingratiated what I ended up doing and trust me in the case there were multiple chances to patch I was pleaded by a certain member's day man. Just get a PO box up here.

You come in here, man You patch this is me in the clubhouse on recording with the doors locked and I'm like I'm very humbled by that That means so much to me. I said, but why would I subject myself to six months of bullshit? Yeah, I'm not gonna be sleeping. I'm gonna go around with my fanny pack with the go kit Which usually includes condoms tampons cigarettes, lighters, knives, drugs, drugs Everything they don't want to carry you calling me up three in the morning to haze me to change the oil on your bike or go Wash your bike and then I stand on this side of the bar serving you guys all weekend not being able to drink And then when I do drink I gotta pay for it when I'm sitting here drinking for free right now And I'm like wait, I said listen, I'm not trying to piss you off.

This is what we did I came up with a legend the team agreed I'm a site survey specialist parlaying off of my landscape and background I travel the country for investors looking at property to buy That's my legit reason for being there then I start seeing their criminal activity And then I let them see me doing some criminal activity and they believe that I was a high ranking member of an international theft ring based Out of McAllen, Texas and I moved stolen goods to Mexico to the cartel to trade for whatever even if it's just money But everything I was doing was spatially based they could have looked it up I was working with Texas Department of Public Safety. I was working with Border Patrol I knew how much dirty law enforcement officer for being paid five to fifteen grand to let a car go through everything I did was factual and then they were making money off of me so we were getting everything we needed for the case Really quick. How are you doing? This is one of my questions later, but we're here You clearly have to do a legal shit to earn their confidence.

How is that sorted? I can't say a lot because of tradecraft. There's still under covers out there trying to do it Okay, there are ways that I can partake in criminal activity. Well, let's just use what we did They started reporting vehicles stolen So you're gonna get your insurance money now you gotta get rid of the vehicle You sell it to me at a stolen price and you believe that I'm taking them out to Mexico And they believe that I'm doing criminal activity right because you are making shit disappear But then it becomes I got your trust now you've carjacked a vehicle now You're just stealing every 50s off of a lot.

So then they call me the text which would they call me? I'm very original I'm from Texas. I'm like I gotta run that guy's a text. Hey, we got this hot car man We just jacked this dude at gunpoint.

We almost killed him. All right. I got it man. That's how it all started playing What was the results of that case the tone chapter was pretty much disbanded and 12 to 15 went to jail How long were you in that one two years?

Now this is a weird question, but I feel like there must be an answer I'm a weird guy you did biker gangs you did a sheriff's department you did a bunch of white nationalist stuff KKK and this one's got to be the most fun It wasn't the white nationalist well Head to sit through is maddening when I'm reading about these dumb dums You gotta listen to talk about their conspiracy I mean that sounds mad at least outlaws I'm into this and I would be more afraid to have on my back having messed with the outlaws and I would be these weird sell white National since cuz I was you have tears you have 60 year old seven year old This is gonna live on yeah, is that a little more scary the way I usually answer questions kind of around that same realm as this look in law enforcement It's what you do Let's go back to the county or the city you work in how many arrests have you made in a year? They're already out of jail Are you not running until my the grocery store? Or are you not running out on my target? So personally my best defense has always been a good offensive.

I see you and I'm like hey, holy cow man How are you doing? Yeah, you're out. You're a forever man. You want the up and up?

How's the family? I was going good. Do you ever feel guilty? Yeah, you had to have become friends in that two years with some folks There are a lot of people out there who know and I covered well in the book that Scott town It is the closest relationship I built with a possible target on any case I've ever done Scott is tight as the most famous FBI agent of all time when yeah with the Donnie Ross go undercover Okay, okay, we're not gonna take the Stone is the very famous he was Donnie Brasko and I think that movie did an incredible job of the heartbreak of having gained Someone's trust who may love you and you love them.

I'll play a clip from that movie when I'm teaching just undercover stuff It's the one where he's in the car and he's saying if you're rapping he takes the pistol He gets on the biggest mutt in the history of mafia. I'll play that because that's when I get into the point of saying What do you think it is and I've asked some people I mean I'll ask you when you hear undercover. What does it mean to you gaining trust? Yes, I'm trickery with the ultimate goal of holding them accountable for something.

That's very good Usually I'll get like lying or playing a character. You're acting I'm building relationships that I'm gonna betray Yeah, you know that's so hard and you need to be able to figure out how you can rationalize that in your mind and Not having adverse impact on your second and it's not always easy and I'm human I've done the training I've been through the training I put on the training I've gotten mentors peers people that I've been blessed the mentor But I've made plenty mistakes you think you can compartmentalize And you can for periods and then all of a sudden the doors open you're sitting somewhere and the compartment comes open I mean this is what like juggling being an addict is like literally Saturday didn't happen We're racing that from the books and three months later all of a sudden you're immersed in that Saturday Yeah, and this book again, you got to dive deep all the interviews. I'm doing it's emotionally exhausted I bet a lot of stuff you prefer not to think about it's not so much that because I'm a talker I think the Lord put me here to feel silent some noise Jackson I read the air burn he was talking so much and then he finally said what else can I talk about? No Yeah, it's tough well now that there's something interesting there because one there's just you are who you are You kind of come out a certain way for sure But then also there's your childhood and so mine was if I can control the temperature in this room I can predict where it's going I'll feel safer if I have a role in what the temperature in this room is yeah, that makes a lot of sense and so dad had pretty bad depression That's actually what brought me to psychology that makes sense But I got to imagine as a young kid whose parents are getting divorced and both are struggling your dad's really struggling if you can set the tone in that room That's preferred.

I've never heard it put that way. That's a great way to say it. I'm probably gonna permanently borrow it But yeah, that's kind of what you're doing now I want to be clear because some people are haters might be like well If you look every case you've arrested everybody you set everything up that's not what I mean by controlling the room if you were Commitant criminal acts and you're predicated. I'm not coming up to you not knowing you're going.

Hey, I know you're broke I'll give you 40 grand if you carry this kilo across three that's entrapment. Yes, but when I tell you they go Where you from and I go my channel in Texas right on the border. No shit. How much can you get a kilo of cocaine for?

Matter of fact, yeah, but yeah, I think some element of it is looking for safety in all the many ways that means Well think about this way and I'll probably borrow this term from the buddy of mine Terry Rinkland phenomenal undercover He's retired as well to help certify me actually, but he says look we're playing chess people think I'm just out there gift a Gabbin and I'm drinking I'm flying first. I'm doing whatever no man. It's a chess game We are trying to stay four moves ahead. You're reading the room and it still doesn't work all the time That's how I ended up in a basement a gunpoint.

Please tell Monica that I was to As I say a lot of times when I'm teaching I would much rather heard that story about somebody else and go and that sucks and he's Standing there naked going this sucks stay tuned for more Farmchair expert if you dare So I told you a little bit of backstory with the outlaws. There's carjack stuff We've now covered dope deals the case teams up on wiretaps, which is not like TV by the way You don't go I need to be always phone in five minutes. Yeah, no We're talking like 80 page half of David's weeks and weeks and months of prep anyway all that stuff was happening So now we're at a point in the case of year and a half in and these are my friends Scott town's a great friend Ronda, Vega clothesline is a good friend Yeah, you're going to kids birthday parties imagine Joe dogs is the president of the taunt chapter that time and he's a friend and everything after that kind of trickles down But we are now to the point they've been hounding me about that we've laid out bread crumbs They have now seen my truck drivers come on multiple occasions to pick up stolen equipment take it somewhere They think we're taking it to Mexico We're actually taking it to a warehouse somewhere and we decide as a case team United States Attorney's office all of us Okay now's the time they've been asking about it. We've got the predication this that the other so let's lay out my story was that yes I did used to be involved in a dope game because they know I have cartel contacts And they know that the reason I never got cut out as a green go the white guy is because I'm the one with the contacts of the port of entry And the checkpoint so without me you can't get your stuff through that was my story So I lay bread crumbs and let them know that yes I did just be in the dope game, but some of my people were getting popped he was getting close I pulled chucks Then we laid it out that my contacts reached out to me Because they wanted to take dope into Canada But their contacts up there had fell through and essentially we're going into a drug exchange from one truck to another truck We did have 40 kilos real cocaine.

We got a thousand pounds of real weed and this is 2007 Yeah, now can you imagine? Do you think there's a SWAT team ever seen this? Do you think they're snipers on the roof? Yes, because we cannot let 40 kilos walk We cannot get ripped.

It's the bad guys decided to go even more bad and say 40 kilos. Let's take it Well, how are they getting it? The government sees all this dope? They have these fucking burns down in Texas.

Yeah, the government owns it's our break Imagine watching them shoveling Cartier watches into a We're gonna do the deal and the US attorney's office of course We want to gather as much evidence as we can who's gonna be helping and get the recordings and all that stuff So I go to the clubhouse and deny before they do a weird exchange happens at the beginning between me and Joe dogs Because he's the one that told me to come and then I get there and they're still having church and for the listeners that don't know Especially in your 1% clubs. There's usually a mandatory meeting once a week and they refer to that as church It's got a cute rebrand. Yeah, it's still going on and I'm like, well, why don't you even tell me to come? So I go get something to eat come back and then I go in Well, what I don't know is that because we have up the ante to do this big deal It made it all the way to the top to the national president who was mil walking jack at that point of the outlaws and he sends it back down Wait a minute.

Why does this deal happen? Who is this guy? Has he really been checked? I find out again later on that clothesline and others were like, yeah I mean we've done like eight jobs with this guy carjack and stolen vehicle here moving this here None of us are in bracelets meaning handcuffs.

Yeah, we think he's good. That matter do what you do So I didn't know that and I'll show up to the clubhouse wired to the hill because I'm trying to get evidence Yeah, so you have a little camera somewhere on you somewhere. I've got video and audio and then I'll have a backup audio and then I'll have a transmitter I like hanging out and maybe doing drugs. Yeah, we're talking again 2007 ish.

It's like how much technology's changed I mean look how small I mean just think now everyone's carrying a phone. I think it's be recorded You could probably do it with eye contact. Yeah, I don't want to give anyone any idea We can do more than we can anywhere because the TV technology is way better now. Yeah, let's just say I had technology of 2007 Yeah, so I go to the clubhouse and I'm cracking jokes But what I don't see is when I'm cracking jokes if I'm leaning this way and I'm looking down the bar And I'm doing my normal stick and I'm cracking country has jokes and my accent and everybody's laughing When I would turn my head they would go complete stone face Their whole meeting was about bringing me in I didn't pick up on it and there was a false alarm They took me down into the basement, but I'll just get to the part They carried me down close line who's supposed to be my second closest friend says you'll text you got a minute And I said yeah, he walks me through this door that I've never been in even though I've been in that clubhouse I'm just the only door I've been through and it leads into a very tight stairwell down into a if I call it a basement That's being generous because I can stand up straight.

Oh, yeah And I could touch the wall probably on both sides I see rope I see that they both brandished their pistols one out law follows me and he stands on the steps with his pistol And he's watching and clothesline proceeds to tell me there's a lot of shit going on and it's my job to take care of my brothers I don't want you to write down your full name, date of birth, social security, everything and I just take all you clothes off I'm gonna check you for a while Yeah, me too, and there's no one in a van across the street. We'll get to that. Okay, but really quick also You have to be playing the game in your head where you're like, okay, so I'm not wired. I am the guy What's my reaction?

I would love to say yes to that answer, but I was shit and go I was having a adrenaline though It's the fighter flatter freeze. Yeah, mid-brain is in charge And then you are hopefully doing what you've trained or rehearsed in your head and that's what I did if I had not seen me Do these things on the video? I would never know I did them But just like I can show you cops and military first responders and shoot outs They have no idea how many rounds they shot they have no idea that they did a magazine exchange behind effective cover They just do it because they trained so much So in the undercover world, okay now I'm down there I'm trying to write my name down if you've ever been through it from that incident whether it's a car wreck or whatever Everything just slows down and your auditory exclusion everything's what what I'm hearing is like scud I've even had sight get minimal so that happens you're getting the tunnel vision. Yeah, and everything's time dilation It's and clicks it's like in case you click click click click you can hear and feel your heart beating for your entire body palm First wedding I'm starting to name song.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm trying to talk and I'm trying to write my name And I forgot my middle name. I've been this dude forever. I know But because of the stress I don't even know and I was blessed enough to put this training on to some Navy seals And one of the seals caught it and he said man if you look your hands not even shaking the entire time You're trying to remember your name and I'm like well mine sides were shaking yeah Yeah, and I yell back.

I'm like what else do you need? I don't even know I do it and he's like what okay my name and what else it Didn't sound that clear there because I'm crapping myself. It sounds like who knows do you mean my name? Well, I'm not even an unciating he yells up and I hear a we need for that website So my god, okay, they're gonna Google search me there's a who's a rap calm There's things like that and I go I'm cool with that then I remember my initials were SAC because that is the head of an FBI office And I thought that was funny because I know I'd never be one Even from a session, but I remember Scott Andrew Callaway, so I write that down.

I take all my upper clothing off I probably was layered because it was cold. I take my boots off I pull my underwear and jeans down to my ankle so from ankle up. I'm naked and it was cold sure and you're scared In the terms of the sound film episode of the whole different level of shrinkage Oh my god, we're dealing with a woman Take all my clothes off and he checks everything I'm trying to talk I know clothesline for a year and a half at this point Even though my words aren't saying it my face is saying tell me I'm okay and his face back to me It's kind of like look it's just business however. He doesn't know that I'm an FBI I'm gonna go to the hill like don't be that worry He's words exactly I think they've been quoted in the press release after the take down He said trust me if somebody accused me of being a fed I probably smash him in the FMI and I said I'm not happy and he said I wouldn't be either and I tell him you guys asked for this I did not come to you you came to me if nobody wants to do shit nobody has to do shit Those are my exact words.

Yeah, not as clear as that because I'm grabbing my pants and all the gears in your clothes somehow So I'm yes, I'm no trade craft. I won't say you can't say but you aren't exposed currently. They're not I think I'm done and then I'm pulling my pants back up I'm putting my boots back on and then he grabs a particular piece of clothing And when he grabs it, I'm like when he grabs it he goes hey I'm not gonna find anything here. I don't want to right like some big pictures of my lady and he goes My laugh is like Now I'm sitting here up against the wall my head tilted and I'm watching him take this piece of clothing and go through it We call this needing he's an eating I'll just say this technology wise in 2007 had he grabbed that part of that clothing He would have felt something and he gets close and he even looks directly at a camera and misses it when he's doing that I have no idea.

I do it, but you can hear clear only recording me watching him and I go Yeah, it's a verbal sound yeah, but all my insides are saying it's over. Yeah, he misses it He hands it back to me and I go right into business, but it's just nervous chatter joking even though I'm a joker anyway It's definitely a self-defense mechanism. I feel like I can't breathe He's kicking in and people ask all the time. Hey, man.

What would you say if you found it? And I remember it like it was yesterday my first response probably would have been something funny if he was said What is this I'm out of said I don't know some make a pictures of your lady to try to buy me some time I'm off the only other response I had is the gig is up I'm an undercover FBI agent and I can walk out of here and we can see each other in court or all hell's gonna break loose And here's the kicker that would have been a bluff on my part costs up until that point to my knowledge my cover team for whatever reason thick walls Bad equipment they can never hear me in that club. What you didn't know that yeah I did you would just have to be betting on the notion that they're gonna assume they're watching yeah You don't come out now. They've got a fed murder.

You always try to play in contingencies contingency plan A B C D Four or five moves ahead, but he didn't find it. He hands it back to me and that night my adrenaline dump just turns into anger I end up going out with Joe dogs and Scott town and luckily they didn't take it personally or anything But I took it personally not shit because I'm just under cuddling but he has pissed Yeah, I'm gonna dreamless coming down. I'm like you know what tomorrow if y'all do show up. I'm stripping you naked in the parking lot How's that come prepared?

It's gonna be chilly. That's good because that's what you would have done if you weren't undercapped Well, it's also hard to know you're just modeling these scenarios. I'm hearing what's annoying about some of these Docs you watch where the cops come They're like he wasn't acting like someone whose wife just dies. How the fuck do you know how someone acts on their wife?

Like that's bullshit. That's what you saw on TV. That's what you thought of in your head. Nobody knows what anybody does until it's happening Yeah, that's the same thing I would've done a Scott Payne who you think you are taking me into a damn basement even though they were right I wasn't right.

I didn't have the moral icon. But that's what we all do we justify things to ourselves even if we know we're wrong We can find a way there's some crazy things about that story There's great training principles to everything was going on because what I found out my hand off my equipment that night is that they did hear Everything the main case team was a FBI agent named Tim He was a good buddy of mine We actually went through the Academy together as new agents and we were really close friends to the whole process He helped me find my apartment in New York City So Tim's now the case agent to task force officers sergeant Higgin bottom with a Massachusetts state troopers and detective Joe Cummings out of Rockton He did that was the main case team We had a DEA counterpart Nancy Morelli, but that was pretty much it You might get somebody's here in there, but everybody trickles office Just this the core team that night starting the shift it was he and Joe and that first interaction that happened between me and Joe dogs at the door They were like something's not right and they pulled in a place to where they could hear me and they were listening to everything They radioed back to everybody else that was starting the shift in Boston and said they got Scott in the basement They're stripping him and he's wired to what I was told is everybody's hauling tail with lysus iron's down They listen to me even though they could clearly hear I was scared because they knew my baseline They were waiting for something to break back They knew the insides of that clubhouse because they've been their own law enforcement activity They knew how fortified the door was it was dead bolted. I think it was a steel frame They definitely had welded metal hooks and a steel bar across the door so it's heavily fortified They were playing once they suited up bested up got their gear and they were going to drive the van into the center block wall Beside the door to breach around the door versus the door But they listen to me and I make it out the other thing that I forget personal because I'm very transparent and I always say my life's Unopened and literally it now is another book at that point in my marriage. Our youngest daughter was around one So three and one years all I got two daughters and I bought my wife a burner phone Which is common these days were back then they're calling burner phones But I'm basically buying a phone that I pay by the minute comes back to nothing because I don't want to call her phone from an undercover Phone you don't want to call an FBI phone from an undercover phone.

It's terrible operational security So I bought her that on that outlaws case. I would call her every night I don't care if it was four in the morning seven in the morning. I'd be like, hey babe. I'm half lit I'm driving home.

I tell this one. You know, I'm good. I'll call you after I wake up sometimes we talk usually it was Okay, honey love you love you too that night when I called her the first thing she said was is are you okay? And I said yes one barely and she said it's such time I was in the cal and driving with the girls in the car She said I got this ever women feeling and I pulled it on the side of the road and I started praying for you So I'm actually up.

It's when I was in the basement getting scared The spidey senses traveling across the universe holy spirit in my world I was in Boston look on my app Boston to my cal and a long way away from each other she's I believe that yeah It was insane. That's just one of the many things that I've got that gnarly is if you had to give one a number one and there's been several I did choke with her after this book and doing these interviews. I'm like, I need to have a couple more life-threatening experiences Well, I was fucking incredible people are gonna have to buy the book to hear about the KKK the one I do want to talk about though So you wrote this book with Michelle Shepherd. Yes, and she's got an incredible podcast.

I really heard people listen to it It's great season two is you yeah the original one was six episodes white hate the covered the group the base That's before we ever met she didn't know me but I heard it because people were sending it to me And she kept hearing him and all this court testimony But just not knowing who this name so when I retire and then I get the chance to be interviewed by Roland Stone actually my I can't her crew back in Canada. We're like, oh my gosh. This is him This is the guy we've been listening to and she thought she was gonna do one episode of season two with Scott That's what she found enough as people do with you. We got six episodes called white-hot hate agent pill horse But I will say it plays like a documentary.

It's so well produced. Yeah, that's Canadian. Yeah Canada broadcasting communicale I say you a good job. It's a really good podcast.

They actually interviewed he the task force officer who was sitting outside and observed me And he said hey, man, what can I say? I said you tell them the truth I know my experience, but I want to hear yours. Yeah, it's a real hear him He's basically the guy that just heard there's inbound nukes. Do I hit deploy nukes?

That's really what's happened Yeah, I blow up this two years. What a fucking decision after me. Yes, because many times he has to be his your friend fuck this case And fuck these guys were going in right now. I don't give a fuck Yeah, but it could have also backfired because if they heard sirens that they just killed you could have a lot of people Ask what do you think would have happened?

If you ask them now, they'd be like oh nothing we found out that's a normal emo from them We found out from other people who were victims females They brought down into that same crawlspace and held a knife to their throat and threatened to kill them people have been killed in that crawlspace Don't sue me out. I didn't see plastic on the floor. I did look for that. Anyway, I'm starting off on a tangent back on the hellos But explain the base sure and this is big teaching stuff now because even in law enforcement when people hear white supremacy They might know Aryan nation.

They might know KKK for sure because it's been around for so long But that's not this they're neo-Nazis so they won't hit the German back They want the white race on top the rundown goes like this the garden of Eden the story in the beginning of the Bible Adam and Eve you got one tree You can't eat the fruit from the fruit of the bread and tree Eve is tempted by the serpent aka Satan She takes about the fruit she gets Adam to take about the fruit and we're centers from then on Christian identity Texting says same story, but the fruit of the forbidden tree is a sexual act and the serpent is actually a man of color AKA Satan and they have that sexual act and she gets pregnant with Cain once Cain is born They consider that the mud race and on white mud race all the way down But Adam and Eve did procreate and that's able and that's the pure white race I mean This is what he's got a sit when I talk about him sitting around having to listen these guys tell him how the world works I'm fucking maddening that would be for me for me another drink How old is that theory because it sounds like they stole it from Harry Potter? No, it's older as far as I know the real push came with Reverend Butler and he was the leader of the Ignatian and that was back in the Red Ray Fair and in all these days they wore their uniform It was Church of Jesus Christ Christian, but they take in twisted much like a lot of your near-age accelerations We'll talk about here in just a second. They're taking paganism and they're switching I've got plenty of close friends that are pagans. They have a pagan belief.

I mean usually I got Viking stuff all over my arm They're reeling in horse. Yeah, so was it right and twisted. They're not doing the traditional pagan block They're doing horrific white supremacy stuff. It has changed when I was a kid and I was in the punk scene There were skinhead Nazis.

Yep, they all look the same, but it's not that now. It's he's fucking schlubby nerdy could be it's evolve There was a whole movement called and it's still out there. It's called entryism And that's where you see clean cut white guys no tattoos suits and ties But they're acting like they're trying to infiltrate government is like proud boy eat tapes No, we'll just like to be people up proud boys not white supremacy proud boys are anti government Progun and they like the fact I've done a lot of militia cases I didn't put in the book because I didn't know if they were still going I didn't want to jeopardize anything nor with the FBI I've approved it anyway, so acceleration is goes like this They do not believe that there's a political solution to save the white race They believe that society is going to collapse on or from man-made events and they want to speed that up through like guerrilla warfare tactics like poison Water system de-rela training take out a power grid start killing anti-fascist belief people start killing lefties and definitely killing Jewish people And reading the world of non-whites good luck to find out. Yes.

Yeah, yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, cuz I would make easy what was it using big sage his name's you said something and turns out okay, that's curious He didn't tell everybody's name. Yeah, okay, but acceleration is they don't like any government It's almost like the arch-wise supremacy meets militia anti-government because we're out there training machine guns Well, submachine guns not fully automatic and pistols doing firearms and tactics training hand-to-hand combat how to live off the land to prepare for what they Were calling the boogaloo not exactly the same boogaloo This is an abolition movement but close boogaloo is basically D-day It's the start of the race war and they are building kids to do that a lot of them didn't have jobs I have read some responses is like my kid had a job. Yeah, he worked all in all for you and he hated it He told me for seven months. He hated it.

He didn't have an arsenal. He only had one gun That's BS. He had plenty of guns I was with him when he sold him on armless other people and bought other guns But let's not just talk about the guns. Let's talk about play carriers.

What are play carriers? So this your bulletproof vest the plate carry the plate stops rifle round so they're ordering crop precision plate carriers It's the same thing FBI SWAT swear, and I'm like that's expensive Literally I could have taken my FBI rig that I'm going out to make a rez-zone and just take the FBI stuff off And I would walk in there and do the same stuff a lot of more where the gun bounce everything so they're preparing for D-day And there's not a lot of fourth order afterthought as you kind of comment on so we take over a region of the Appalachian Mountains While another section of the base is taking over region of the Upper Peninsula, Michigan While another region of the base is taking over Pacific Northwest property and we're gonna create our own ethnostate Because clearly if we make it all white everything will run smooth Obviously when you're sitting on talking these guys you ever go like so who's gonna do all the work all this work I know the way people do I'll tell you what I did my sense of humor. I gotta have So I'm like so we're gonna go. Yeah, man.

Yeah, man. Yeah, man. It's basically socialism because we're getting everything for free I didn't work that way But what I do is at the end of it I go so who's gonna be Hitler and the faces go blank and I'm like getting thought that far Who's it gonna be? Yeah, it's gonna be one just a mess there.

Sure sure because they were belief system I've listened to them go on for hours about concave earth Hitler's still in hollow earth with it's not a garthons There's something else. I just start to know how do you learn the lingo? Sometimes I let them teach me let that ego roll. I say your question me and your pressuring me.

What do you live? What are you doing in Texas with a new Jersey driver's license? What are you doing? I'm like, what are you doing?

I'm like, I don't know. I just met you right? You seem like you're nice. Yeah, but I'm not ready to invite you ever to Encrumptice yet, but then I just turn it what's that bar on your collar me?

Oh, that means I'm gonna be here for like a year. Yeah, you may be tenet in a year. How that is talking for the next two hours Yeah, well, let me tell you about that done when I come in and I'm a talker and I know that so in order for me to be better at my job As an undercover, I gotta shut the F up or else I'm talking over you given us evidence the base was huge on recruiting a lot of these Acceleration scripts are huge on recruiting and they do it by flowering or stickering or posturing It's like we go down the street and on the way back one spray in the glue You're slapping it on there and it'll be like join the base save your race save your race join the base It'll have a picture of us was the good like a s s and then a helmet and maybe like a skull face And then there'll be a QR code you scan that QR code It takes you straight to a bitch shoot site and it's a recruitment video of us and I'm in a lot of them like us doing the trainings in Georgia Or it might be training up in bad-ex Michigan and it's a gun shooting and music playing and running to recruit like the al Kind of videos. Yes, and here's what's funny the base in Arabic is Al Qaeda Wow when I was being interviewed to join the group They laid out their ideology and that's when I learned the whole acceleration is a huge on the call it siege culture There's a book out there called siege don't go out long.

Yeah, don't go try to buy it James Mason wrote the book It's a lot of interviews and articles to shove together, but this dude got lies Charles Manson He's interviewing several times because Manson ultimately thought there'd be a race war as well And he was trying to accelerate that yeah, then that's where you start seeing the ideology of acceleration Them as don't do so it's bill don't go out there stand on the corner with picket sign screaming number one You're making yourself a mark number two. You're not doing anything. Let's go behind the scenes Let's start mowing this down. Let's start killing people.

Let's do this to cause the collapse of society and K There's principles. Let's get an oversized reaction to something we do kill a hundred scare thousands Yeah, a thousand scare millions Yeah, but if you looked at al Qaeda it was three to five-man sales I've got a country accent CLL sales they want three to five-man sales all over the world ready for that phone call So as I'm being coached by the leader and creator of the base He says we want three to five-man sales all over the world waiting I mean we had members from Norway, South Africa, Australia the UK, Canada You just keep going these heroes these heroes are the ones in New Zealand of the Saints all these assholes 27 at Walmart Nine at a mosque the masters it's an active shooter But it's an active shooter with the ideology of setting off the race war is the saint leaderboard usually in the tactical world We never say their names. Yeah, yeah, good. Yeah, I go to the Christ Church shooter He's not at the top the one that did the Norway shooting is on top It's like 77 and then you get Christ Church is this and then you get down to the tree of life tree of life Master and Pittsburgh then you get Charleston You see that these are all related it gets quite scary very if you're viewing them as individual acts of crazy people You're kind of like how do we account for crazy people around the world when you see no these are all related This is a syndicate and then it says at the bottom.

What are you gonna do to make the board? Stay tuned for more expert if you dare While I was infiltrating these groups I've watched an active shooter event happen and the kid only got one shot off and then his gun jammed and the ridicule that you read on Telegram and these dark channels discord 4chan 8chan 12chan you name it wires prima whatever else is out there now They are blasting them what an idiot. He didn't know how to handle his weapon He could have killed so many more people now see in America though. You can blast that That's the first amendment protected speech you can say I hate any racial slur you want You can say I hope any racial slur dies.

That's not against the law. That's where our work my peers mentors People I mentored first responders on that front line have to stay vigilant So let's just say you make it into one of those groups and you're looking at Thousands and thousands of the most vile posts you can think of you're trying to figure out who's serious It was gonna pull the trip how I heard you do any eight you just gotta stay vigilant You hope the people out there cliche But if you see something say something you know this reminded me of a little bit in a weird way is domestic abusers They beat their wife twice you know statistically okay Well eight times more likely this guy's gonna kill her when you're law enforcement and you're just watching the pattern and you're trying to figure out Okay, he's on the road when are we allowed to intervene? We have to wait till she gets killed down there's a lot of times people that will argue against law enforcement It'll be like why are you pulling me over? Why don't you work in murders?

Well, there's an old theory called the broken window theory and as we start small if you're a disorderly walking down the street drunk And I lock you up for disorderly Maybe I'll stop you from getting behind the wheel of a car and killing somebody in the DUI right maybe I'll stop you from going home And murdering your wife or having that 15th This is in my glettles, but this is cracking down on jumping turnstills on the subway This is cleaning up graffiti you take away the opportunity because you never know what's gonna happen all that stuff And look I'm in the middle of all this but when your environment is sending you signals that no one's looking people act differently Another friend the coin is mine. He's actually a great instructor speaker former law enforcement in London, UK We were having this conversation like man, why is there more of this stuff happening? We can dive down rabbit holes and stuff and conspiracy theories, but I've been around guns my whole life It's not fat and then Jerry Rack left he says Scott with his cool accent He says we have to take away the opportunity and I go whoa I do remember even going back to working a side job is a cop at a fun park where they got putt putt and go carts and video games If you saw kids congregating on the side in the shady area not spending money you go bust them up They're coming up with something the various to do I think we got over there in the shadow, you know, and you just go there and go hey, how's it going? What are you doing?

You guys should get ready to just bust it up your BMS are yeah, okay? So you do get embedded in that group in this Canadian who gets out it in Canada goes on the run he gets out it common term is docked DXED which basically means out and this is the huge battle between far left and far right I am full trade of the far right So I say we not that I don't have the belief system, but I'm in there with them. Yeah when we're doing these videos We're double checking hey pill horse. You can see your tattoo on my back pull the sleeve down or I go cut black socks Just like cover up that because the sleeves too short Hey, your ponytail is hanging out hide that because they're so afraid of getting docs and being out what the far left Is really good at is once you are docked they will show up at your house.

They will protest at your work Well, Antifa started showing up they're good with that and they get fun in for it I'm not gonna die down that rabbit hole on this one either But they don't have money but they're being paid by somebody because they're getting arrested in five different states for the same Damn thing and they don't live in any of them hate bigots hate it goes back and I never is resolved right So I'm in the group I'm gaining their trust and I'm learning more and we as the FBI are learning more Do you have to fake your skillset? This is what I was thinking I did because he's a marksman He can't show up in the training thing. I'm imagining you would be shining a light on yourself if you were as good as you are We don't want to leave anything right am I in the KKK and I bring a black person to the rally Start that and lead it that'd be very bad, but with them I was just a country guy former biker former skinhead and yeah, I shot but I would throw I would let them tell me God received instruction He's dumb enough. Well, it was good instruction though.

Oh, okay, a 19 year old kid led I mean it wasn't the best but I walked away from that first meeting training I was like this is not good. Yeah, where did you get the training because you didn't go in the military? You're only 19 now gaming They're very Very Old kid But and then his dad took into a range and he practiced and got quicker and he's probably only in it looking a lot of stuff But I was happy to see some safety because I was really concerned with that when we first started shooting I started the back. Well, this fucking scenario with the gold.

Yeah, you could've been killed there So this would happen I've done a couple of blocks the first pagan block I did was actually pretty legit because the guy that led it even though He was a member of the base was also an asatru guy and it was more legit And I got to ask a lot of questions about it because I'm learning just like with their teaching tactics I'll go what you call this again? Slice in the pot. Oh, okay So when I'm slicing the pot now I'm using the verbiage you get yeah Yeah, we do a couple of those and on those blocks I mean they would take wood and carvourunes and swastikas and other hate symbols and you cut yourself and bleed on it and set that On fire and we pray to our gods until the fire goes out. It's so weird.

It feels like it's such a hodgepodge of things It's very Viking it reeks of searching for masculinity and validation. Oh, yes, you're 100% from my experience You're spot on they haven't earned it through a job in a career They haven't earned it through a marriage and protecting their children. They're outcasts. They have been bullied They can't get a partner.

This is the only way in their mind at least that they're gonna achieve that It'll accept you so we do those blocks and we're doing training and I'm hearing all the crazy ideology other than the Canadian who ran Once he got docs he have sconded illegally in the United States We were looking for him hard as a case agent Rashid out of Baltimore and a US Attorney Thomas Windham And they were phenomenal the stuff they did tracking phones and finding stuff They were able to figure out that they knew he was in the country I was helping them and then Seattle had the main case and they were working the poop out of it too But there were divisions all over the United States working this stuff because if there's a member living in your area When in LA he's got an open case on it now. We get to the point where we find the Canadian He is actually down at the farm. I pull up there for a weekend trainer or something I'm counting the cars I know whose cars are what and I'm counting the heads under the owning of the barn And I'm like that's a person there and I go walking up and as bushy red hair and beard by this point But as soon as he starts talking I'm like I'm gonna introduce himself I didn't miss a beat I hug him and said welcome to the United States brother Yeah, and then we start training and now you're getting into more crazy ideology like when the bookaloo happens And I'm talking about crying while you're saying it I'm gonna have to shoot my dad in the back of the head and I'll do it because they're saying why because and their beliefs When the bookaloo happens indeed a starts if you are not fascist that automatically makes you anti-fascist And the penalty is death even if you're white Yeah, you just keep raising the purity test the fundamentalists are on a trajectory to outdo one another's fundamental There is no your home safe your white you're this they keep moving the goal post yeah All these movements so I will say this is a whole nother thing But just to tie it into current time whether you love Trump hate Trump whatever this kid that just killed I think it was his dad And stepmom or mom and stepdad He just killed him and he was on his way to apparently do a assassination Well the first reports start coming out show that he's reading ideology I was just telling you about and it mentions of nine a oh nine a is order of nine angles That is a let me say it this way from what I found working it infiltrating it working as a case agent Developing sources who are in and all around it if you scratch the surface long enough at an acceleration is grouped somewhere in there You're gonna find an own a member or there's some other groups that are very similar is a extremely extremely dark Satanic why supremacy groups still same thing believe in a collapse of society, but they are huge on rape Sexual abuse and pedophilia there's a dark as you can get the sentence of their big on rape and pedophilia is like yeah Yeah, case happened very fast paced eight months you were there seven I thought but it was 24 seven and as I said it kept growing and growing the more people identified It got to one point where once a month we would get all case teams on the phone call there's over a hundred people on the call So we do this Halloween hate camp in 2019 I show up and a guy named eyes and is gonna be leading the block younger kid clearly that note is paganism stuff very well And again, they're twisting it So I'll add hand to hand combat training that day and this wicked cold front came in the first one of the years You have not been I can make it you're freezing your tail off. I go to charge my phone I fall asleep because the heat zone you know I'm like toast I'm beef Ross and then I wake up to pound on my window bell horse bell horse man You gotta get up.

What do you see this? What do you see? I'm like what is it? You're here's talking about the goat I'm like oh and they're like we got it so I get out and they have gone not that far down the damn road to a place That only had like three goats jump the fence steel to go almost get caught it could be a ram ram goat very close It had horns I walk out there and one of the members who went by the name Dima is holding the goat in the back one of the other members Can't go back truck and it's pooping everywhere and they must as you go man.

Just think shit no They're the place and I said well, I would be exactly And if we're in came home and my father's a machine go to jump in my backyard and jerk me out It's not a surprise birthday party Right now I'm watching eyes and work this goat and he's praying to it He's talking to it He's showing it love and I walk up and I say is it bad that I feel sorry for the goat and he said don't let the goat here You say that and I'm like okay, and he said this goat He's a no is loved it's being sacrificed to own it's going to Valhalla. This is a good thing for the good We're showing it love and we're sacrificing it to Valhalla and I remember thinking I don't think that's what the good Yeah, I know about the hall of fun. I don't know he's heard of it I go over to my listening device when you're out you should have a cover team So if I'm out four days straight on the farm, but I'm gonna be pulling shifts and rotating because you got to have a quick Response to you talk quick and you respond to me on a hunger farm get the craft's gonna hit the fan I'm I'm I'm I'm running through my head as a senior investigator as a senior FBI agent as an undercover coordinator No one all the policies and all the red tape I'm going do I need approval for this if we do this I lean in and I go listen if you guys can hear me I said I'm pretty sure we get out here and sacrifice this good at this ritual I know they stole the goat but instead of misdemeanor if any of you do not want me to do this and you want me to stop it or pull Chox I need to know send me a sign and I said they're not waiting and I got nothing no phone calls and I said okay We go deep into the woods to the holy site where we've done stuff before and that's when they go to sacrifice the goat I doesn't does a speech about we're starting the wild hunt so in Norse mythology the wild hunt essentially is Odin and a bunch of other gods go out in the middle of the night and just slay all their enemies But in the twisted ideology of the white supremacy acceleration is it was gonna be the start of the wild hunt which basically meant cleansing the planet Of anti-fashion on white Jews so I think goes to kill we were in a circle around the goat everybody's kind on their knees I'm not sure how I ended up at the back of the goat But that's where I was at and he has a machete type thing he does his speech. We're starting this is the wild hunt This is going to the holly even named the goat Gar G.

R short for Garfield Which was his middle name and also the first name of the grandfather. Oh, so we've got a connection to this goat now He goes to kill it and for whatever reason. I don't know if the blade was dull I don't know if this backstrap is big much as that it's his first time ever trying to do it Yeah, but he brought it with force he come down I am and I'm holding it. It was just a foot and all you hear is the goat go Yeah, you know, I'm like, oh damn and I'm like this is gonna get bad so fast and somebody said do it again It's like the next two things I said anybody got a gun Well, we weren't supposed to bring any weapons But the one guy who was least qualified to be handling a firearm had it hands it eyes and chambers around Points to the goat head and then turns away.

Oh, we're all still in the circle That's when the instructor comes out you hear it clear on the corner like whoa, whoa, man. Hey, what are you doing? I said look at what you're shooting at man. I'm in a circle So he comes up to it.

Hey even on recording you can hear the goat. It kicks for several minutes I'll tell us and say I want you put another bullet in I think it might still be alive No, I'm pretty sure it's dead. I said for the love of the good. We're trying to make this a big story.

Oh, yeah Let's put this thing up the ball holopies for me So they put another one in it and then somebody even says oh and now it's definitely dead So you think you're done now they slice the throat of the goat they fill up a cup with his blood We're all in a circle and eyes and brought acid of course I did not partake in the acid maybe a couple others didn't partake to help with the shaman which is kind of In the spirit world or get high. That's called like yeah I'm going to like young guys But as we're going around I'm holding the flashlight for eyes and eyes and tearing off a tab putting it in the mouth of the base member And then they're chasing with a blood So we keep doing that all the way around and it gets to me and now it's my turn and by this time I look down at the cup and it's all coagulated Narlie and I'm looking at it. I'm going man. I really don't want to turn this shit up You'd be shocked at some of the things I would do instead of drink that yeah, right?

I would have to take the acid But I think I said I think that's what's gave me now because I'm like I'm looking at it. It's just chunky I just don't want to bounce it off my way Oh So I stick my finger deep into the blood pull it out suck all the blood off my finger And then they come in to cut and the whole head of the goat off and we carried it around for the next four days There's all kinds of photo ops. There's videos. It made it all over.

It was on BBC news everything I was holding the goat's head given the SIG how holding the base flag of course the next day was completely shot because they were still How I'm acid but we went back to training and that Saturday night we did more filming we went back to the holy side and Set a bonfire. We're burning holy bubbles. We're burning American flags while everybody's screaming F your Jewish God death to America You see you got to understand if you hate the far right. I'm not saying extreme right like what I'm just saying politically It's like oh well this was a premise these people don't like anybody that was my thought when I watch and I'm not conflating this group With these people but when I was watching the capital six riots.

Yeah, I'm looking at this crowd You'd be tempted to think there's some kind of monolith ideology there. There's not read that sign That's in contradiction to that sign. There's so much hodgepodge shit. They're ideologies not the thing that actually is you not even making them Correct.

Were there people there with some nefarious plans for sure? But I just think the thread was I've been excluded from this system. So I hate this system So to put a pin on this this did end with 11 arrests. Yeah after that weekend I gained more trust and they started including me on what we found out where numerous murder plots the Canadian went back up to the Baltimore Delaware area and Was with a sale up there?

I was good friends with both of those sales the sale up there thought that the Second Amendment gun rights rally That was gonna be in January of 2020 They thought that might be the kickoff of the book of the movie fire some shots militia people think it's somebody else cops Think it's somebody else and that could be the kickoff and if you could see some of the stuff They were spewing the conversations they were having like let's go break out the Charleston shooter. Let's go break out the Saints Let's start shooting cops. I got a thermal scope cop stops the car at night. We pop them What do you get automatically you get another gun and bullets?

You get a bulletproof vest might get a radio It's just crazy stuff. So we uncovered all that the timeline was crunching and we were able to successfully take down everything That was incredible. You gave us so much time I had a couple just really rapid fire questions just your kind of opinion about some stuff So have the numbers increased or decreased over the last five decades? And if so, how do you explain the growth or the shrinkage?

It seems like it's growing is it the Internet? Is it the political climate is it unemployment is it directionless young dudes? What would we attribute this to and has it increased it has influence and sometimes it is political so like when Obama was in for eight years Your militias started growing again because they were worried about their gun rights And then when Trump came in it kind of died down because they weren't worried about it And then it kind of ebbs and flows the white supremacy thing the quickest way for me to answer it on an extremist level is What I've been talking about is far-right extremism white supremacy There's some Alicia stuff in there too anti-government because I infiltrated it But I've got mentors peers and people I'm into work that are working the other side and radical Jehodist or black separatists or far left. There's a lot of people being radicalized online and especially with AI these days So go back to what I said from what I saw this isn't to be all-indole every situations different case by case basis But I saw a lot of somebody who's in outcast has a hard time belonging can't get a partner probably been bullied And they want to belong and then they dive on these phones at night and they go down these rabbit holes of hate I don't know if Gabb still in or not but you could go to Gabb and go to that group is called 14 words That is white supremacy.

They refer into the 14 word coined by David Wayne synonymous through white supremacy or you can hop on white So I wonder what you're gonna find there and they will take some real stories and they will do propaganda videos to suck you in And then you start meeting like-minded people and I'm telling you the stuff that they blast is vile And I know people that are working the other side and it's the same thing So it goes kind of back to me see something say something I understand parents have in blinders on cuz that's their kid They don't want to believe it But you think it's a phase when your kid barely has a job or hardly ever has one father of one of these base guys I was getting so frustrated listening to talk He's like you know he went through a lot of phases and she asked what was you know is some Nazi stuff It's denial that guy came down and drank with us and Apple doesn't fall for Man I get it. He loves his son. He loves his daughter That's cool But your son has the skull of God which has now been cleaned with Swastika's and otherwise supremacy stuff and rims on it And on one side of the skull is my and comp Hitler's book and on the other side of the thing is siege by James Mason That's not a phase when you've got grown men showing up all the time and training on your hundred acres wearing flank Tom a flage because that's the German pattern drinking yagramized because that's German and you hear what they're saying it's tough But go ahead. That was a long answer.

No, that's good when you say say something can you specific report it to the police? Yeah, that's what your joint tears from task forces are out there for that's what your local cops are there for On joint tears from task force because that's what I ended my career on I was a criminal guy for the majority of my career But that's where that call comes in and a lead is typed up. Some of them are crazy ladies. She was kidnapped by us And they replaced her eyes with alligator eyes and you're like, what?

I gotta go find this person now Right you do that interview. Hey, look at me But you can do that and then they'll get a lead and maybe just going out there knocking on the door saying hey A lot of crazy stuff going on in the world right now, but somebody reported that you putting some radical stuff out there I just want to make sure you're not really playing it on her. Maybe that's scary on my now. Maybe or maybe it gives me an opportunity to have them call me if they see something crazy.

In the book, I talk about that guy in the case. It was other white supremacists that reported that guy because he was theoretical. They're like, Hey, man, I'm a white supremacist, but this dude. He's really crazy.

He's a real guy. Oh, yeah. I knew you would probably have felt very close friendships with some of these people and that that would be heartbreaking. Did you feel bad for these guys?

Some of them. I think we grew up in an era to where I saw kids get destroyed, became an as just kid showing up to school and they got destroyed. That's heartbreaking to me. It worked out for me and didn't for something.

And not saying I like what their solution to it is, but I also see so much of this is born out of just a horrendous experience. I'm just like, I'm 100% believer in I'm not to believe I've seen it product of your environment. Kind of a bond with a lot of people and it's not far from what I grew up around or it's exactly what I grew up around or it could have been my relative. Imagine looking at some of these guys and going like, Oh, yeah, you're a thousand hugs shy of being here or second chance or a fifth chance or a 20th chance.

No one's winning the whole thing. I can give you one second chances. Yeah, let's hear it. Love a success story.

It's sad. There hadn't been a lot in my 20th year career. You always hear people when they're getting arrested and they're getting near their time. They're like, man, I'm never doing this again.

So remember where you're at. Also, let's be real. What are you playing on doing? You get out.

I'm going to cut hair. My uncle was a barber. It's a great profession, but I want you to understand something. A barber salary is not going to allow you to walk into the Dodge dealership, pay cash for brand new challenger with your own custom made Rams on it.

So be prepared. Yeah. But do that success stories. They are out there and I have even in retirement, let the US attorneys always know I didn't have to, but I'm like, Hey, I've talked to this person.

We got put in contact with each other. I helped put this person in jail for their sentencing hearing. I'm going to do a letter for them, a character letter, but I wanted to let you know. So you're not blindsided.

They're like, man, thank you so much. I said, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to type. I'm going to send it to you.

You let me know if you have any heartburn with it and we'll discuss and then I'll do a character reference letter and they only got probation, even through my church. Small grips. Some of my best friends were meth dealers. Yeah.

I'm going to go do time. But hey, man, I'm here for you. As long as you're doing the right thing, I'll do whatever I can help you. Just some degree you must certainly have developed some acute spidey senses where I'm sure you can kind of tell who's capable of that second chance.

Yeah. And it's incredible, but code name, Palhorse, how I went undercover to expose America's Nazis with Michelle. Also, the podcast is fantastic. This has been radical Scott.

Appreciate you having me. Yeah, incredible. All right. Peace.

I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that episode, but we'll find out when my mom comes in and tells us what is wrong. I know this doesn't interest you, but it continues to wow me and I'm going to keep telling you. Okay. Well, first of all, when's all of a sudden you bought a pound of ground beef?

It's been a minute. But you can visualize in your head about how big that is. Right? It's smallish.

It's like the size of a small shoe. Um, you don't like that. You don't like that. I think it's sure.

Well, here's my point. Yeah. I think a pound of ground beef is a significant size. Okay.

And I weighed myself last night before bed. Oh my God. I can't. Yeah, you got it.

Because I listened to about astrology in the pit yesterday. You love astrology. I don't love astrology. You haven't tattooed on your body.

So two to five point two last night. Okay. Many people said tonight. Okay.

Very big deposit this morning. One ninety eight point eight. So I lose seven pounds in 12 hours, 10 hours. That's a lot of your seven pounds of ground beef.

I don't want to. That's what you must picture to be impressed by this. Okay. Yeah.

Like where does it go? Like, well, I know where it goes. It goes in the toilet. But no, just picture seven pounds of ground beef on that table.

And then I go, I'm going to lose that tonight. Maybe it's more than just the pee and the poop. I mean, I don't air. Yeah, air is not very heavy, but how much is air?

How much is air? Oh, I want to tell this. I saw a very cool video. I'm mad.

I didn't send it to anyone because you know the only way this is how I save videos. I'll tell you in my mind. I see a video I like on Instagram and I send it to someone. And then a month later, I'm like, all right, I remember I send it to that because how else would you find it?

Well, you can save them, but yeah. Oh, you can. I don't know how to do that. I'll start doing that.

Okay. Okay. It was Richard Feynman. And you know, people love all smart people are obsessed with Richard Feynman.

Yeah. Like consistently, it's every smart person's favorite smart person is a physicist and he worked on the Manhattan Project. He could tackle anything. He was just so curious and fun.

So I watch this video of him and he said, you know, have you ever sat and looked at a tree and wondered where does the structure come from? I think it's normal to assume all of that comes out of the ground with the building blocks for a tree and this huge tree trunk and all the leaves, it's like coming out of the ground. And he said, in fact, that is not where it comes from. The tree is built from the air because the air has carbon dioxide in it and the tree with the help of the sun, it breaks that apart.

Wait, the tree, the tree in the leaves. I thought the tree didn't exist yet. No, little sapling comes up from where? A seed.

Okay. So you're saying, okay, you're saying there's a seed. There's a seed and there's a sapling. Okay.

So it goes above that 100 foot redwood. That's not coming from the ground. Okay. I see what you're saying.

I thought you meant like, I thought you were getting very heady and like, where do things come from? Well, it is a little heady, but it's not metaphysical. So the air is full of carbon dioxide. The tree with the help of the sun, it breaks apart the carbon dioxide into carbon and oxygen releases oxygen and we breathe the ice in.

It uses that carbon to construct the wood, the tree. So the whole structure of it is just taken out of the air by the tree. So it's all carbon. It's all carbon.

Trees are all carbon. Yeah. Yeah. As are we, we're like carbon life.

But I mean, how do they, how does the wood, it's like, how does it create the texture of wood? Well, that's how it assembles the carbon that it pulls out of the air. It assembles it into that shape. Who told it to do that?

You're not, you got to let me get to the punch line of it. Sorry. So that right there's mind blowing. I think I've always looked at trees and thought all that wood came out of the ground somehow.

And he said, sure, there's some minerals and stuff that are coming out the ground. And then the other thing that's coming out of the ground is the water. Trees are made up a lot of water. Yes.

He said, but the water doesn't come from the ground either. The water comes from the air. Sure. The structure of the tree and the water all comes from the air.