Welcome to the Mike on much podcast. I'm your host Mike Guillermo. You're here with a friend and trusted producer, Max Kerman. We have a pop culture of this yanado, Shane Cunningham.
And listeners, we have a great guest today. We're going to switch up our format a bit. We're actually going to jump right to our conversation because we have Matthew Wildcat, who's a member of the Ermanskin Cree Nation. He's an assistant professor in political science and native studies at the University of Alberta.
We have some mutual friends and we want to have him on because in light of everything that has been going on in this country and what you've read in the news, we thought it'd be great to have a conversation with him. And Maxi, we're changed up the format. You're just like, you know what, let's not catch up and jump right to our conversation. Yeah, well, we can get to silly stuff afterward, but I think this is a really important conversation to be having and I want our listeners to hear it right up front.
Yeah, and Matthew, super generous with his time. His partner Renee is a Hamilton gal who we have lots of mutual friends with. And so we learned a lot and it was a really, I think, fruitful conversation to have especially right now. Do you want to get to Matthew?
Let's do it. Matthew, thank you so much for joining us. Off the top, I think we have a mutual friend, Max and Forbes. You're friends with Dan Hamilton, who's like a dear friend to all of us.
How do you know again? I know Dan through Renee. Oh, okay. I think a number, or Mike, I think you went to high school with her, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so yeah, we've been together for a few years now. We met each other in grad school quite a long time ago, 2007 in Victoria. And then in 2017, started a romance with each other 10 years after we had met.
And yeah, I know we were in the fall expecting a kid. Oh, congrats. It's amazing news. Wow.
Yeah, that's very cool. Yeah, well, yeah, Dan reached out, you know, with everything that's happening in the news and the revelations, there was an actual school that you should talk to Matthew, because there's no better expert to learn more and discuss this stuff. So thank you so much. But Mike, can you take a proper intro here?
Matthew, you're a member of the Ehrmenskin Cree Nation. Am I saying that correctly? I always want to make sure that's what people say are mind skin or something like that. Yeah, but yeah, you got it, right?
And you grew up on the Ehrmenskin Reserve. You're an assistant professor in political science at the University of Alberta. And I guess just to start, we sort of wanted to know sort of your path a little bit about maybe your family history and what led you to political science and Native studies in the first place. Yeah, so, you know, when I was in high school, my strengths were in the maths and sciences.
And so that's actually, I went to university thinking I was gonna be an engineer. But really, I think always since I can remember, like, since I became like a political being, that I always wanted to help, you know, the community that I grew up in, not Ehrmenskin itself, Ehrmenskin is also part of a larger community, Musher Cheese, which is, there's four First Nations or four Cree Nations that all have contiguous reserves with each other. And, you know, that was always kind of like a part of my motivations and my passions. And I think was largely inspired by just like sitting in living rooms and like hearing people discuss politics and kitchens and, you know, just like constant, there was kind of like a constant chatter of like, you know, what can we do to make the community better, right?
And so what ended up changing my career path to political science is I actually went and worked a summer in Fort McMurray at the St. crude plant. And I had this moment where I was looking at this map and it was where all the oil sands have been, all the claims have been charted by the various companies. And right, that's in the middle of this map with Fort McMurray, First Nations, they're reserved up there.
And it just, you know, knowing that for the most part, it's not this way always now, but for the most part, you're, you know, you're taking the top soil off to get to the bitumen and, you know, mining it out, so it's like this sort of strip mining. And I just, you know, at that time, I realized the immensity of these sorts of processes and structures that we live in. And I was like, you know what, maybe an engineer isn't going to change things in the way that I think it's going to, I should just go do what I want to do, switch into the data cities that summer. And then that kind of set me on my path to becoming a political scientist eventually.
Are there many programs in different universities across Canada that like have a focus on Indigenous studies? And by the way, I always thought the word, like native studies was not appropriate, but that's in the title of your job description. So what would catch up on that as well? Yeah, you know, I think if they had a redo, they would probably change it to the faculty of Indigenous studies, but you know, the term came about in the 80s.
And back then, you know, Native American was a fairly common term as well. So I think Lethbridge at the time had the first kind of Indigenous studies program. I think they would even call it the Native American studies program potentially in University of Lethbridge. And so, you know, it's just like an old term, and partially because the faculty is so old, it's been around for quite a while.
So, you know, that's what explains that. So what was the first part of your question? Oh, yeah, I was wondering like how many other universities across Canada like have a department for Indigenous studies? It's very, very common.
In fact, I would be surprised if, at least in Western Canada, I would be shocked if there's not a single university that doesn't have like an established Indigenous studies department of some kind, of a program, some kind of Ontario, I'd say probably more than half. And then as you go out east, it becomes less so. But even then, I would say probably a solid half of universities are gonna have something really dedicated. But it's not just Indigenous studies programs or departments that have come about.
Now you see law schools turn to this. So like McGill, Dalhousie, Alhav, now like core Indigenous content within their programming for first year law students. And which Canada, that's all like a ubiquitous. And so it's, you know, there's a lot out there that exists.
You know, at the same time, I think what you saw is after the Truth and Reconciliation about in 2015, that universities also, there was kind of like a mad, the Ash or like a mad scramble to say, okay, we do have some Indigenous content and programming, but we're not doing it at a particularly large scale. And maybe not always resourcing it very well. And there was a bunch of money and time and effort devoted to it. And that's actually, that's still kind of ongoing today, just because universities are such big shifts that turned it around.
All of those efforts started then are kind of still around in some sort of way. So, you know, it is fairly common, but it's something where, as I guess as a country or post-secondary system, is there's a lot of work to be done still. What's the makeup of these departments typically? Is it mostly Métis or Indigenous people?
Or is there like a good degree of just white or other people involved in program? They're not exclusively Indigenous these Indigenous studies programs. And so part of what's happened as universities have attempted to make inroads around Indigenous research is that, if you're an Indigenous faculty member, you're quite in demand in this country. So much so that there's more jobs and available Indigenous peoples with PhDs or, you know, capability to teach in faculty positions.
And I guess in some ways, a lot of it actually is their, you know, the requirement of having a PhD these days has led to some people being excluded from universities. This is something that, you know, very well known as Shilabesh Guller-Lian, Simpson talks about it in one of her papers that, you know, back in the day, you would have elders who are on faculty teaching courses. And I was telling this story about, when I was an undergrad, there was this contemporary native art course taught by Jane Ash Pottras, who's this famous native artist who lives in Edmonton. And, you know, she was in the classroom breaking us down that, you know, the history of contemporary native art in Canada.
And, you know, so it's been around for a long time, but the, you know, the requirement that universities and that put on that people need to have a PhD or close to it in order to get higher. And they create demand for people who are competent in talking about indigenous studies, but also histories of colonialism. Means that non-indigenous people are needed to staff these departments in some capacities. I'll take the next one.
By the way, Matthew, we all have a bunch of questions and thoughts. I'll do the next one and then we'll. Sure, absolutely. You mentioned the Truth in Reconciliation Commission back in 2015, just for like a layman explanation of that.
Can you walk us through how that came about and what the intentions were for it? And maybe what you think has been successful in terms of what we learned from that or what maybe missed the mark? Yeah, yeah, I think for a lot of our listeners, even those who are sort of politically minded, it's still, I think people aren't completely familiar with exactly what the purpose of that document was. Yeah, so, you know, the Truth in Reconciliation Commission came out about a class action lawsuit.
And so, you know, the health and health and self-survivors of residential schools, you know, people who attended residential schools throughout the late 80s and early 90s started to launch lawsuits against churches and the federal government. To the point where there was so many people who had lawsuits that, you know, the court said, okay, you need to pull these together and pull together a class action lawsuit. And you know, before that time, I think in some ways the history of residential schools in this country had been forgotten almost in a way, which is wild because they were still ongoing at that time, right? Like the last residential schools didn't close until 1996, but you know, the peak of them had taken place and what was required was a lot of people, I think in the arts, so I had an uncle who put on a play about residential schools, I think in the early 90s.
And you know, people talked about it as like, you know, this is the first time I've ever seen this represented in a play or we've been able to talk about it in public. And Phil Fontaine had this kind of very famous moment on TV where he said that he'd been abused, that not only that he'd gone to residence, but he'd been abused there, right? And so this created all this momentum and this class action lawsuit resulted in a, you know, a quite significant settlement. It was a multi-billion dollar settlement.
And one of the components of that, the settlement was that the survivors of residential schools with the money they received through that lawsuit rather than just like taking it all and giving it up individually, said, we want to put some of that towards doing a Truth and Reconciliation Commission. And you know, at the time, this was kind of, you know, it's an international model, right? And most famously done in South Africa, after apartheid they did a Truth and Reconciliation Commission in order to try to create a new society, right? To move past all the transgressions that had happened within apartheid.
And so, you know, this model was used by survivors to create this Truth and Reconciliation Commission. It had three commissioners who traveled around the country and people could give testimony in multiple ways. We could get public testimony. So I attended two of the commission's hearings, one in Vancouver and then one of us which he's run from.
And then if you don't want to do it in public, you could also do it in private. And so they collected all of this evidence. And you know, in many ways at the time, a lot of non-Indigenous Canadians decided to attend these events and I think we're very moved and impacted by it. And you know, I almost wonder if in some ways, you know, the kind of the shock and the outrage that's happened around finding these mass graves and cantaloupes and now in Cowas' First Nation, if the Truth and Reconciliation was necessary to kind of like give people the mental capacity to understand that as an atrocity, right?
Like I almost wonder if this news had come about previously, it would have been hard for people to even wrap their heads around it. I know it seems obvious why it's so awful and shocking, but to some extent, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, it had this like gravitational pull and force on people's consciousness in Canada, whether it's in a big way or a small way, but it really, it made it clear that this was a thing that happened and that we needed to deal with it in some kind of capacity, right? And so the commission, when it released its final reports, I actually know many of the commissioners well, not very unclear, but Wilton Littlechild was my next door neighbor growing up surprisingly, like just down the road, and my his daughter was my first friend, Marie Wilson, she, I'm quite good friends with her daughter, Kylie Capri, and it was a very, very hard couple of years, I think, for them, listening to everyone's testimony. But what they did really well and really strategically was when they released that call for action.
I think there's 94. They wrote it in such a way where that if any individual person reads it, they feel as if it's something that they could take up and that they have to do something about, right? You know, like, I can respond to this myself individually, and not only myself, but my participation in whatever institutions in Canadian life that I find myself participating in. And so, you know, again, I think all of these things kind of I don't want to downplay, you know, the horror of finding these masquerades, but I think that TRC really helped people to understand that, yeah, this is a real thing that happened in that workplace.
I was reading an interview, actually, you did recently, or somewhat recently, and they were asking you about a blog post you did where it was talking about the end of trauma-based narratives of reconciliation. And obviously, every podcast and everything I've been reading lately, that's all they've been talking about. And I was wondering, what would you rather be hearing right now on podcasts such as this and other outlets? In some respects, it is a time of reflection, right?
And that critique I had of like, you know, where two trauma-centric was in part because I've been asked to participate at University of Alberta. There's this leadership college, a lot of leadership college, and that's been to do it day on Indigenous peoples. And rather than focus on Indigenous leadership, you know, values, practices, we focused on, they did a blanket exercise, which is this exercise, which is kind of like a visual, not only visual, but a, it's a representation of colonization where everyone gets to get an extent. And you take, like, it's away slowly to represent Indigenous peoples losing their lands.
And it was a very impactful exercise. But in my head, I'm like, this is bullshit. You know, like, we should be, if we're, if this is a leadership program, of course, people can learn about colonization elsewhere, especially at U of A, there's like dozens of courses on colonization. We should be talking about leadership.
And in a lot of ways, that's where that moment, that's where it was coming out of. And so, you know, to some extent, really what I want to get out, or, you know, I guess the idea, and it's not my idea, there's, you know, you've talked about this. There's lots of other people who talked about, you know, not having trauma-centered research narratives. You have to talk about Indigenous strength and resilience.
And I think, in some ways, what I was thinking about is, let's also talk about Indigenous excellence, right? And Indigenous strengths as well. And so, you know, I guess it's not that we can ignore trauma, and we can ignore, you know, it's not just the past, right? It's like, you know, Indigenous peoples live at very high levels of trauma currently, every day, right?
And, you know, we have to grapple with those things. But, you know, I think part of it is that if we're going to have a partnership of some kind in this country, that we need to think about how Indigenous peoples are, you know, not only like have excellence in all these areas, but also like politically, like, how do Indigenous peoples come to different things in more substantive ways, right? And so that, I think that's the, you know, where I would hope we also make space and room for that as well. I love that, Mattie.
You know, it's like, of course, there's a painful history there. But I would love to, but it's also such a vibrant culture. And it's nuanced, and there's so much to know and learn from it. And you're right, I think oftentimes the only things we read in the news, you know, but the history of Indigenous people are just the sad, tragic things that have happened.
And I would like to learn more about everything else as well and all the things we can learn from. Well, yeah, it's interesting, like speaking of sort of like this moment in time and going forward and sort of, you know, reflecting on the past, also sort of acknowledging the present and then figuring out next steps. It feels like we're in this moment, maybe it's just the age we're in, the age of accountability. When it comes to sort of everything, it would seem currently in society.
But obviously with the sort of the revelations about sort of the discoveries of the residential schools and the way that the greater population is sort of, it seems talking about it in a way that I can't remember in my lifetime. And it feels significant. And there's obviously momentum right now when people are very moved and people that maybe before weren't paying attention are paying attention. Does this feel different to you from sort of like a larger sort of like societal standpoint, where like, wow, Canadians on a larger mass maybe are paying attention more, and then how do you keep that momentum?
Does this feel different this time I guess is what I'm going to get down to? It definitely felt different in some ways because I had a bunch of people, like non-indigenous people texting me and being like, it's kind of over here. It's okay. It's like, oh, this is different.
You know, to be perfectly honest, when I saw the news, I almost like, I don't even think I opened the article, partially because sometimes I'm like, you know, I'll circle back around with that. I don't read that right now. But then also I honestly didn't think it was going to be such a big deal in a lot of ways. And a lot of it is because, you know, if you were familiar with the TRC as it was being done, they said they estimated four to six thousand children die at these institutions, right?
So, you know, like, this is to be expected in some ways, right? And even I have a friend, Mandy McDonald, who's saying she knows people from Kamluks, you know, she had been told that there was unmarked graves there, you know, years ago, right? And she said when I saw the news, I was like, oh, that's nice to confirm that kind of thing, right? So, like I said, you know, this is how I, if it didn't come across clearly earlier, because I'm just kind of working through this point, but you know, I really think that the TRC, all the work done in the TRC, helped to kind of give people, you know, the mental framework to comprehend this as a tragedy, right?
And so I don't see this as like a big pangence from where we've been before. This is all kind of stuff that builds on each other. You know, I'm not entirely sure why it's such a humongous thing, but you know, obviously I'm sure it's because children are involved, right? And there's really like a, I think, you know, very, just that that is a real difficult reality that, you know, these, that in Kamluks at least that most of these graves are children.
So, but yeah, I was listening to an interview with Rosemary Barton and Marisa Claire on Rosemary Barton Show, and she went, she said, I went and reread the chapter on, you know, missing children, and you know, obviously they shouldn't be a shock to anyone, right? And so, so yeah, because it's definitely different, it sounds sort of way, but in my mind, I see it as just kind of like part of the, you know, part of the ongoing, not just the reckoning, I think, on the part of non-Indigenous peoples, but also part of the ongoing, like, resistance and activism that Indigenous peoples have had to take in order to push these things to the forefront. I was researching a few months ago for another interview, and I came across some information that Indigenous people, or Indigenous children rather, they're less than 10% of the population in Canada, but 50% of the foster care system is Indigenous peoples, Indigenous children. So, how do you think we can break the cycle to get Indigenous children to grow up with their families and be part of their culture?
You know, it's a, in a lot of ways it's a really tough question, and especially because, like, in some provinces, like Manitoba, it's even more stark, that disparity, right? And so, there's a lot of activities underway right now, which I think are going to be helpful. So, you know, when we have things like, you know, in the past there's probably been people, child welfare agencies, have been too quick to move to apprehension rather than explore other options, in particular, how do you support parents, right? And how do you support families?
But also in the past it's been very difficult for, say, immediate family members, so like, as an uncle's grandparents, to receive care of the child. They would become the caregivers. They should be next in line before the child is brought out of the home and adopted to, out of their own culture. Absolutely.
So, in the past that has been, it's been very difficult. You know, part of this is just legally transferring the guardianship of a child. I think it just really wasn't set up to take account of Indigenous peoples, like, family networks and experiences. And, you know, that's slowly moving.
You also have in the past there was a really strong, I think, I view it as being very moralistic that, say, you have an android, even like someone who's not directly related like a cousin or something, who is a capable caregiver or capable guardian, but financially couldn't take on another child. But child welfare agencies would say, well, we can't give money to you because that should be your obligation to take care of this child. So, we're not going to pay you in the same way that we would pay a foster parent, right? And so, you know, that again, that hurdle has been largely overcome.
And then the last big one, of course, is that, you know, the way Canadian Federation is divided up provinces have control of child welfare. And provinces haven't always done a great job of accommodating Indigenous peoples and working with Indigenous peoples, right? Not only do you have provinces who are much more willing to engage with First Nation governments and leaders in community groups than previously, but probably just as importantly, you have First Nations themselves taking jurisdiction over child welfare. And a lot of, there's a huge amount of work going around across the country right now because of, I think it's Bill C91, which is a child, like an Indigenous child welfare law that was passed by the federal government, which allowed us First Nations to take jurisdiction over child welfare.
And then you have people like Cindy Blackstock who really like brought a lot of attention to this. And then, you know, someone at University of Alberta, Hadley, Friedland, who talks about, I think, okay, how do Indigenous people set up jurisdictions, right? How do Indigenous people set up laws? And, you know, so Morales, you pick up all these other people across the country who are doing this really hard work of like, how do you build institutions?
And institution building is just incredibly tough and slow work. So these things are all happening, but I also view it as being incredibly complicated because at the end of the day, the reason why people have to get apprehended from their parents is because their parents are not well, right? They're suffering in lots of ways. And a lot of the time, the reason why they're suffering is because of intergenerational trauma.
They're suffering because of like colonial injustices that still exist in their life. And those things are really, really difficult to deal with. And there's no easy way out of that. That is just, it's the history of this country, the history of colonialism has meant that we have this kind of deep pain that exists in Indigenous communities.
And that's, you can't solve that overnight. And so that's just something we have to, it's going to be a long-term project. Hey, Matthew, the entire country is grieving over something that I think the Indigenous community knew all along. And I think the rest of us are really starting to understand just how deeply wounded that community is.
I was thinking though about what somebody said earlier about what are ways we can highlight just how special the culture is, how we can show more examples of Indigenous excellence and leadership. And you really, of course, I'm really here on EdmontonHeritage.ca about land acknowledgments and rethinking them when it comes to public settings and different events. What are like positive steps? I'm in a band.
I do lots of public things. I'm in Victoria right now with Canada basketball. And I'm covering this basketball tournament. I'm out and about.
We're all doing stuff. And of course, there's like, right now, I think I see often on social media. There's 24-hour crisis hotlines for any Indigenous person who needs to talk. And that's obviously incredibly important.
And then there's, what are other things that you'd like to see more of a part of Canadian culture? It's a long and slow road. I do a lot of this as being very, very difficult for people to work through because as an individual, you come to conceive of yourself in certain ways, like your identity. And you build up your identity.
And most people, huge parts of their identity, they want to build up as being a fairly positive thing. And a lot of ways being a Canadian has been a super positive aspect of people's identity. It's something that people are proud of. And not only that, but you associate the Canadian with certain values, democracy, freedom of each, justice, all of these kind of things.
And I think one of the reasons why these, when we hear news like this, why it's so difficult to grapple with is because it's not just undermining your understanding of what Canada is. It's undermining your understanding of yourself. You come to think of it, you're like, well, I'm so proud of being Canadian all these years. It's like a M.I.
of that person. And it's a lot to grapple with and to think through into the process. And so to some extent, I think people need to really be able to process Canada in a different way, to some extent. And so I have this other, I think it might have been even the article that you were reading, Shane, or it's like a blog post.
And in it, I say, we're going to have to create a shared future. We have no choice. We exist here together. And as much as indigenous peoples who might make a claim, people should just leave.
I think you could justify that at a legal, moral level. It's possible, but it's not feasible. It's not going to happen. And so creating the shared future is really difficult.
And I think in some ways it's going to require people to take on new and different identities. And potentially that don't revolve around Canada. That's the claim that I make in the blog post. Maybe we should think about this in terms of how do we reform Canada.
We might have to think about this in terms of how people come to conceptualize their identities and how people come to conceptualize their society in a different way. And so I think that's really hard and difficult work because not only does it involve the self, but these identities don't exist in isolation. They exist because a bunch of people, millions of people buy into them. So in a political theory, we would call it intersubjective knowledge.
This is knowledge that we generate together through our subjectivities combined and collectively. And so that's real tricky stuff to do, not only building up yourself in a different way, but doing it in concert with millions of other people. It's real hard. And so there's no real easy pathway for how we move that down and change it and move it over.
But at some extent, I think Indigenous peoples all along have articulated these different visions of shared futures. So at least you have the Guessmante, the Tour of Wanda, two ships travelling side by side. Like on the prairies we have all this discussion around treaty. We're all treaty people over signatories to this kind of sacred compact doing things together.
And so the way I've described it is that right now we exist in the country that's colonial. In particular, it's a settler colonial country. People came from elsewhere. What makes someone a settler instead of an immigrant is that when you come from elsewhere, you bring your own laws with you rather than joining the laws of another land.
And so that's why we live in a settler colonial country because primarily people from Britain brought those laws with them, established them here. And now those are the laws that we use to govern this country rather than people joining Indigenous societies and using Indigenous laws to govern the country. And so the big question is how do we end becoming a settler colonial country? And that's really, really difficult work because it means that Indigenous laws and Indigenous governance has to become, you know, fullsome and substantive in these ways, which is probably quite scary to a lot of people.
And I don't have any easy copies other than to say that, you know, I think a lot of people are doing a lot of great work Indigenous and non-Indigenous. That being said, part of what is frankly difficult to conceive of is that it might be impossible. Right? Because Canada doesn't exist in a document.
You know, it participates in a larger world around forces of, you know, capitalism, the way in which nation-states and, you know, the world order conceives of how, like, economies and political authority, all of those things work. And so we're tethered to that larger world order in some sort of ways. And, you know, having seen these dramatic transformations is just really difficult. You know, I don't want to let go of this kind of like this future where colonialism doesn't exist.
But at the same point, what I really want to focus on is that there are people doing really great work right now. And I think if you work on it and you build up your own capacity to think through how do I be a good treaty partner? How do I be a good, you know, relative, I guess, you might say to Indigenous people, how do we create a shared future together in this country, I think it's possible. I think we can make inroads for sure.
Well, I think that's a great note to sort of to leave on, sort of the thought of a shared future and the things that we can do to sort of get there. Man, thank you so much, Matthew, for being here. Maxi, you guys have any more questions for Matthew before we let go? Just one more.
I wanted to know, how do you think the land recognition speech is go over? Like, are they welcomed in the Indigenous community or is it like someone stealing your house and then being like, sorry, sorry we did that. That's right. Yeah, the analogy that I for people use is, you know, you kind of apologize.
If you fill in someone's bike, you kind of apologize unless you give them like back to patients. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, let me put it this way.
You know, in Alberta, you know, we're still fairly, you know, we're a conservative province, right? And so it's not it's stark when someone refuses to do land acknowledgement. And so that's refusing to do a land acknowledgement is still worse than doing a land acknowledgement, even if it's, you know, kind of hallover or vacuous. You know, they were really important.
They were something that could scale really easily and quickly, right? And so the, you know, the scholarship on land acknowledgement has suggested that part of it is that coming out of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, this is something that could just, you could really, a lot of people could do very quickly. But then of course, what is once kind of very important and interrupted spaces like made people think in a different way, now feels very vacuous and hollow because we hear them all the time. And like you said, like what are we to make of these things when we don't actually want to up-treaty relationships, right?
And so the workshop that I offer, you know, I use this method out of the United States public narrative, developed by Marshall Pence and, you know, was practiced by many, many people down there. And what I do with the narratives, I have a workshop where I ask people to kind of like plumb the depths of their consciousness or their experience. And it's about, you know, when did you realize colonialism was a thing, right? Like, what was that moment for you?
And what I suggest and I offer to people is that, like, you know, if you can, those stories of coming to understand our country as being a colonial country or coming to understand that, you know, something is kind of deeply wrong in the relationship between indigenous and non-indigenous peoples in this country, that you should tell those stories along with your land acknowledgement. And that's what's going to make land acknowledgments meaningful, is not just the fact that we're sharing these stories of how we're sharing these stories of how we're sharing these stories with people. And I think it really, in a lot of ways, to be motivated to do stuff, it's not just like understanding it at a rational level, it's like we have to be moved in our soul in some sort of way, right? Like, it comes down to our emotions and our core sense of self.
And this is, I think to me, involves sharing these kind of personal moments of how we can understand things are really screwed up. And for people who want to sign up for your workshop, how would they do that? I just, you know, organizations contact me and I just offer it. And so yeah, you know, I do it a couple times a year.
I'm happy to do it. You know, I think there might be an online video, Canada Trust recorded me giving a lecture about it. But yeah, no, I love giving the workshop because it's, you know, they're really like high energy events and just kind of like deeply emotional way. And so it's kind of one of my favorite things to do because people leave like angry, but also really jazz that they can do something about, you know, about indigenous self-determination.
Actually, Matthew, I have one more question. This has kind of come up a lot in the last couple of years when you see these various social movements really take hold of the culture in, I think, a positive way. You know, there's this big issue, not issue. There's a conversation happening about renaming things, whether it's Ryerson University or Dundas Street, Dundas, the city.
And I am always a little reticent when I hear arguments being made by rich liberals who are advocating on behalf of any group. And that was, and I kind of want to be, can you shut up for a second? Like I'd like to know what the people that are living the experience would like, and then we can go from there. Because you see this in a lot of different struggles happening.
So I know there isn't probably a consensus opinion in the indigenous community, but you know, because there's a lot of opinions in any community. But broadly speaking, do you feel that the advocates are being helpful? Are they frustrating on any level? And what do you make of the renaming conversation?
You know, the renaming is, so there's a group of indigenous conservatives, I'll call them. And indigenous conservatives are different conservatives to me than other people. I feel like they're usually more sincere about, you know, about questions of self-reliance. And like these are kind of in some ways actually like very kind of traditional traits.
Because like, you know, when you were living in the bush, you had to be pretty self-reliant. And so, yeah, and they say, let's not worry about this naming because it doesn't change anything. Right? It's not substantive.
We need to actually like take action. And I have a bit of sympathy for that, but not entirely because it is a form of action because it's not necessarily in super material ways, but like symbolically, like we need somewhere to put our energies into, right? And so sometimes I think that the naming we don't entirely know what to do. And so it's like, but this is something that is really easy-loading through.
Like, we should just not have buildings named and universities named after people who have these like very dark histories. And you know, like I hear that, you know, no one should be judged by the worst thing that they've done, but at the same point, like when the worst thing you've done is like orchestrate residential schools, like it's hard not to be judged by that. Right? And so, you know, I'm all for the naming, the renaming.
I have a good story which illustrates this. And so this is a unique law school. There's this judge, Judge Végé. He was a judge in the colony of British Columbia, I think in the 1870s, maybe 1860s.
So at that time, British Columbia as a colony is like, is trying to expand, you know, take control of more land and they have this war. We'll sit still with people or like it sometimes gets anglicized to Chilcon and interior BC. And so, you know, this is like a war, right? Like it's two separate political entities having a war over land, you know, the British win.
And then when it's all over, they invite people to, I think it was maybe the US minister, you know, somewhere in the lower mainland. It was kind of like, you know, let's come here. We'll make a peace treaty. Like, we'll figure this thing out now that the war is over.
But it was like total break heart style. Like it was like a trick that arrested everyone, tried them and hung, I think, five sub-outine chiefs at this time. Like this is like a humongous, first of two people, like this defines their consciousness of how they think of Canada is like this break heart style hanging of all their leadership after this war. And so a bus that this judge hung in the Yuvik Law School and I think there was like a wing named after him or something.
So this big debate happened and some of the debate was like, we need to keep this statue around because we need to be reminded of, you know, the sins of our past. We need to be reminded of all the bad things we've done. So we don't repeat them. And my friend, Rastav Sipotin, stood up and I wasn't there, but this is what was told to me.
And he said, I don't need this statue to remind me of colonialism. I'm reminded of colonialism everywhere. Just because you have a member history in these ways, that doesn't mean I happen. And so, you know, if this is what non-indigenous peoples need to do in order to remember history differently, then yeah, I'm all for it.
Anyways, some people snuck into the law school and stole that statue and they didn't have to have that conversation anymore. Thank you very much. Thank you so much, Matthew, for your time. It was a great conversation and honestly congrats again on your impending little one.
What do you do when you do? It's been a huge July 16th. So, it can come anytime. Yeah.
We'll say hello to Renee from Shane and congratulations. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thanks so much.
Thanks again. Thank you so much. It's Matthew Lockat. That was a great conversation.
It's always fascinating to listen to people who know what they're talking about, talk, and it's nice to just sit back and listen and hear what they have to say. Yeah, he really reminds me of our friend, Matt Civelli, who's also a professor at McMaster, but they have the same speaking voice and the same kind of wisdom. I feel very comforted around just listening to Matthew Lockat speak was the same way I feel when I listen to Melly speak. I'm just like, it's so soothing.
It's really nice. It was nice just to hear him. Yeah, it's very, I mean, this seems obvious, but like a professorial vibe, which is appropriate since that is both of their professions. Yeah, exactly.
How you guys doing? I'm in Victoria, guys. You are. You are.
I got to say, it is a little weird. I feel like the energy is changed. I feel like we're going to have to shift with this energy because it's like, we literally just came off this sort of long conversation, this in-depth conversation. And now we're sort of just jumping back into like, hey, Max, you're in a hotel room.
But tell us about it. That's the way it's going to go. Yeah, I came to the West Coast a few days ago. Team Canada Basketball is hosting me.
I'm going to get to go to a live sporting event in a few hours, the first live sporting event in ages that I've attended. And I'm doing some social media stuff for them. Arkels have some performance footage that we're going to be rolling out as part of this Olympic qualifying basketball tournament that Team Canada is trying to get a spot in the Olympics for. And we were supposed to play here last year around Canada today.
Obviously that got canceled postponed. And so we're doing this in lieu of that. But it's been fun. I got to say, in British Columbia, you can go inside to bars.
So we were hanging out inside at restaurants. You know, there's six of us at a table. It kind of felt like the good old days. And last night we went to a bar.
It's kind of an institution in Victoria. It's called Big Bad John's. It's a little hole in the wall. It's attached to a Strathcoona Hotel in downtown Victoria.
And it's one of these bars where there's like, it's really kind of a towny bar and there is a bin of peanuts, a big like bulk bar and size bin of peanuts next to the bar. You just go and you shovel all the peanuts you want into your own little bucket. You bring it back to the table and then you eat the peanuts and you just throw them on the ground. And that's the bar.
And there's like bras and money and cards and stuff all over the walls. It's really something. It's like a bin of a lot of cars. Yeah.
That gimmick is very common. Yeah, it's not very common. It's somewhat common. But in fact, it felt like the most anti...
Are you going to adopt it for odds? Maybe. I think it's cool. But it just felt like you've been...
We basically went from not being able to see anybody legally. The popping for peanuts. The popping for peanuts. It was awesome.
The peanuts are in their shell though, right? Yeah, yeah. They were in their shell. And then I got home and I...
Hold on a second though. You're skipping over stuff. You're in this bar. We all have social media.
It looked like you were on the high seas with the nuts, with lights, a great kind of the pod. Manage your ass. You guys are out there just living your best life. Tell us more about that.
Do you feel alive again? Did it feel extra better because it's been a year and a half? Did you cry? Did not cry tears of joy.
Manage your ass though did when she saw her best friend lights at the airport. That was amazing. That was very sweet. I was very sweet.
I took a pocket on that. No big deal. We also... It was very fun because Vancouver is very alive right now.
I want to know, do I still have it? Walking around the streets. Max, arcals, Max, arcals. Still got it guys.
That felt really good. We were on a boat. I am not the kind of person to jump in the ocean. I jumped in the ocean.
It was pretty great. And yeah, we've just been going up for brunch, going up for lots of coffee spots. It's been fun. We shared an Airbnb with the Nut and our friend Brent.
Guys, I can't tell you how much I love traveling with guys. It is amazing. Just hanging out shirtless in a hotel room the morning after having gone out. There's a lot of soccer on in the morning.
Just talking shit, laughing, singing shirts off. There's nothing like it. Honestly, I think it's my favorite place on earth. When you're just with friends on a road trip.
I haven't been hung over anything like that. We've gone out. We're on vacation so there's not a lot of pressure on. I find when I travel with the band, I have to be on on on.
I don't really drink when we were touring because I need to be dialed in. But on this trip, it's just kind of in pretty casual. It just makes me want to go on a road trip with you guys. You don't know how good it feels.
It's different than going to someone's backyard. When you're in a hotel room and your shirts are off, and it's 10am and you just had a coffee and no one cares about anything. It's so good. It's the being indoors with people.
Once you've decided, I'm showing an Airbnb with these guys. We're going to be indoors and we're going to go to bars. Once you get over that initial, if there's any circumstance, then you're probably just in the pocket. It's like the old world, but something you haven't done for a year and a half.
It's like abstaining from something you love. And then all of a sudden, just getting it back. It sounds glorious. It was really good.
It's the kind of thing. It's like, I got a great... So, Brenda and I were staying at Airbnb, but it was so hot on Sunday night in Vancouver, and we were out with lights and stuff. I was like, guys, Airbnb, in the West Coast, there's no air conditioning in most places, because they usually don't need it, because it's at a moderate temperature.
But they have the hottest temperatures here in like 60 years or something like that. So the whole city... Back's Kerman rolls into town. It's the hottest day in years.
That's right. So, Ash, though, is staying at a hotel. I was like, Ash, are you in a double room? She's like, yeah, I was like, can I just stay in your room?
I want to stay in the Airbnb. It's too hot. So you did sprint and birche and you went to air conditioning? That's exactly what I did.
So then, hold on a second. I'm going to pull up this thing here, because it's really special. I think the audio will be good one second here. So I got a video from Brent and...
...virtual. Just had 130 in the morning. They just wanted to send a video. So here it is.
Their shirts are off. And, by the way, when the camera starts rolling, Brent is posing with his shirt off, because he thinks it's a photo. Here we go. Hello, Max.
Robert. It's Missy. We miss you. We miss you, Matt.
So, let's go. We just got a bros. We got our sleeping shits. We got our pants off.
We got our shirts off. We got our shoes off. We got our shoes off. We got our stoggs off.
Chugois. Here, Ralph. Chugois. Chugois.
We got our cute boys, bro. It's amazing that he keeps that chin pose, even in a video. Unless I've known you were going to show that to other people because... Um and it's also like how long have you been separated?
Like like... Like an hour! Like an hour, like I'm talking an hour! Oh no!
Like a... Like an hour, like I'm talking an hour. Like an hour, like I'm talking an hour. They went to their...
They were sitting at an hour, they were sitting at a video. It's you boys, we miss you talking shids. I missafer shenanigans. So, it's been great.
It's been really nice for us. So one of your invancunい because you are doing some TikToks Da14 Canada is so the Canadian national team is playing there's NBA players on the team, Andrew Wiggins, RJ Barrett, Chris Joseph, some of the most amazing members of the evening play for the Raptors. Nick Nurse is coaching the team. You're a close friend Nick Nurse.
And so you're out there. I know you called some people for some ideas. You like to brainstorm. And I know you talked to Shane and you called me to ask for some ideas.
But when you called me, you're like, oh yeah, I'm leaving for Vancouver tomorrow. And I need some ideas for TikTok. I'm actually doing some stuff for the team. I'm going to be going to the game.
I almost sensed in your voice that you were apologetic. Like you were nervous to tell me the news that you were going to Vancouver for free and getting paid to watch fucking NBA players play basketball in person. Which I appreciate. I'm like, this is a good friend.
He's handling me with kid gloves. Because he knows that I would do anything to be doing what you're doing right now, which is hanging around this basketball team, this team Canada. Were you actually a little trepidation to let me know that was what you're doing? Oh, absolutely.
Because this is a trip of lifetime. You know, honestly, especially for you. You love it. Yeah.
So I wanted to be sensitive to my guys. But yeah, I got back to the hotel room last night. I'm happy for you. Yeah.
Anyway, that's what you guys up to. I'm getting double backs today. Hey, that's fine. Hey, congratulations.
I am double backs. Oh, good. Yeah. Guys, we might be able to do a pod in person.
How sick did you get after the double backs? Honestly, I feel like I got away with robbery. I'm like, start the car. Everybody, you know, all of our buddies and the champagne boys, like, were on their ass, like, out, like Dawson and Felix, all of them were out of commission for 24 hours.
I literally had my arm wasn't even as sore as it was the first time. So it was like, I got over the arms earnest and I was just rolling, baby. Hopefully you get that expansion. Guys, it was so hot in Vancouver and now that I am double backs, I hate wearing a mask so much.
And I made a tweet about it. I was like, I'm going to go to, I'm going to start my own. I'm now an anti-masker and an anti-lock ever. I made a tweet about it being like, and I'm going to have my own March and the March will be going to brunch inside.
But you can only come if you're double backs. Anyway, I made a tweet, the joke being that I'm now that it was obviously a joke with a lot of people. Like, yo, I'm really surprised that this is the one you're taking. I'm really surprised, Max, that you would be surprised that you'd get that kind of back out.
Of course you get black out. But the punchline was you can like the March will be us going to brunch, which is such a hoity toity. You think people understand punchlines are comedy on the internet? It's your first mistake, man.
Honestly, I just deleted it. They're like, yo, I'm surprised, no longer, no longer an RKL fan. I'm like, okay, whoa, that's bad. Never mind.
Okay, never mind. Dang. Yeah, you can't do any sort of satire or jokes online. Yeah.
It's comedy one on one. Yeah. All right. Anyway, that's me.
I've been gabbin away. What do you guys want to do? Well, it's a shame mention that the double vaccine, are you nervous about your double backs? Are you feeling good?
I'm worried about getting sick. Yeah. Yeah. You're going to be fine.
I'm doing the combo deal. I'm getting Moderna and I got Pfizer first, not to brag. When you are double-vaxed, are you are you guys going to loosen up? Do you think because you have been probably like our most disciplined sort of friends, the tightest that you've kept your family very tight.
No one's really seen you in a year and a half. Obviously, as we know Alex has lupus and so she's more at risk. Do you think you guys loosen up or do you still sort of keep it tight because of the kids? I think we'll loosen up.
Okay. So maybe some in-person podcasts. In-person everything, yeah? Love it.
That's right. Speaking of in-person, we talked in our last episode about the draft lottery, the NBA draft level. I saw your reaction. So I had a little gathering in the backyard and I was pretty excited.
Like I said, this was basically our playoffs for if you're a Raptors fan, which is slightly pathetic because you don't really want to be in lottery, but once you're there, it's like, you might as well have a good time. It's got my philosophy in life. It's like, you know, make lemons, make lemonade. Like, did I want to be in lottery?
No. Max Chenier in my basketball groups was I bitching the whole way. Did Aaron Baines give me heartburn every time he tried to catch a pass on a fucking pick and roll? Yes.
But then once, you know, I realized we were going to be- this wasn't the year. I started getting excited about the lottery. So this draft lottery show, which I want to talk about the way that the NBA does it because they're so fucking smart. I was excited to have this thing in a lot of people in the backyard.
And I got the feeling that a lot of people were kind of like, you're having people over the back there to watch the half hour draft lottery show? Like where the Raptors could pick as low as 11th and are more likely to pick ninth than jump into the top four. And my brother, even, who we know can be a bit of a scathing cynic, posted some odds of us getting the first pick. I'm like, I know it's only 7%.
So he's like, calm down. This is what he said to me the day of when I was getting excited from the party. So I have people over. I got a good friend, Jimmy.
My neighbor Pat from East Coast popped over. We had Sean Dawson. Mike D from Arkels popped by. It was a good crew back there.
And the show, the way that they set it up is basically they go, you know, last first. So the way it's normally slotted is the Warriors are picking 14th and it goes 14th down. We couldn't go 14th, 13th or 12th, but there was like a minuscule chance we could be 11th. So the minute this commissioner, deputy commissioner starts opening the envelopes, he pulls out the logos of the teams.
So you're watching the show and if you're invested, it is very dramatic. And my heart hasn't beat that fast. Like, well, actually I did do that weird 6k ride ride ride on my diet. So my heart was getting faster.
But as far as like excitement in like something you're watching, I found myself like super like caught up and so it's like the envelope comes up. We're not there at 11. Brilliant. Not there at 10.
Nine and eight. I know there's a good chance we're going to get pushed down. So we're going to maybe jump up. We're not there at nine.
We're not there at eight. The moment of truth comes is where we're either at seven or we jumped into the top four. And when he pulled out, the Golden State Warriors logo for number seven, I like, I lost my shit. Because in that moment, anything's possible.
We can be picking number one. All I know is we jumped into the top four because we couldn't have had six or five. And it was like the buzz in the backyard. And like the guys, like even the people that didn't think it was going to happen, weren't super best.
We're like, whoa, like it actually created this amazing moment. Obviously if anybody follows, they know that we ended up with the fourth pick overall in like a player that has four or a draft that has four amazing players. And my brother the next day, all of a sudden he was all good. And he was like, sorry for being a cynical, I'll never doubt you again.
He's like, I'm so happy for you. And I'm like, the point is, did I make a party out of something that could have been super lame? Yes. But did it turn out amazing and with a little bit of luck and positive thinking, did it turn into like, I'm so glad I had people back there to celebrate with.
Instead of just sitting on my couch and watching this, what would normally be a mundane experience. Did either of you guys watch the draft lottery show? I did not, but I did see snapchats of you freaking out, which was just as good. Just like you like jumping out of your fucking chair.
I know, I don't even, but Felix uses it. Felix and Shawn use it. Yeah, he sent me the video, but yeah, it was amazing. It was like, you're so sprightly.
It was awesome. When they jumped, when they jumped when they weren't there at seven, I compared it to Goodwall hunting. It's like, you know, a chucky, the Ben Affleck character keeps telling, well, you know, I come here and I pick up every day and we go to the brickworks and we work. He's like, you're too smart for the shit.
One day I want to come to your place and knock on that door and you're not going to be there. And that will make me happy, even though it's his best friend, even though it's his best friend, but he wants his friend not to be there. I kept saying that that envelope at number seven, I just didn't want the Raptors to be there when we came knocking. And when they weren't there, it was a celebration, baby.
No, but you know what? It's like, you know, we've been deprived of the normal fun stuff that we get to do for like the last year and a half. And so at the end of the day, though, you realize it's like, you know, it's kind of just about like the energy you're bringing to any situation. And if you're like, even if it's something as silly as a draft party, like it doesn't matter, because if there's like excitement and there's conversation around it and there's like good vibes, that's kind of all the only thing that matters.
It goes back to things about hanging out shirtless in a hotel room with your friends. It's like, you know, we were actually talking about this. It's like, it's not even about the going out part. It's like, oh, we're going out to a restaurant or we did shots at a bar or whatever.
It's not about that. It's like, oh, the next morning is actually my favorite thing or like, or the time before we actually go out anywhere. And we're just hanging around with him. It's a game on.
We planned a whole trip about going to the draft. We went to the draft in person. And it was not even have a pick. No, it was extremely boring.
And like, like, you think it would have been way better. But it was just all like, I wasn't even I didn't watch it at all. It was just us being at the bars the whole time. And I don't know, like AJ, our friend was like, chirping some guy.
And to me, that was the show him him and this guy. Yeah, we went to Brooklyn for a friend AJ's bachelor party. And we got into the draft another shadow to the night. And AJ ran into one of the next players, like a bench player and got into like a like, they started chirping each other in the fucking concourse.
AJ talking to some six nine guy going back and forth. We're like, oh my God, yeah, so good. Bring some shame. I was just gonna make a joke about thank God we held AJ back for that guy's sake.
But I don't need to make that. Six foot nine dude. Yeah. Yeah.
AJ got crushed. All right. Well, yeah, let's jump to the Shane surprise. Let's do it.
Yeah, 100% let me just pull this up here. Okay, I'm ready for my intro. Welcome to the Shane surprise. Also formerly known as the dessert.
Can't wait. Okay, so I'm double Vax guys or I'm about to be double Vax. And I see Max going to cottages and he's in Vancouver. He's not social distancing.
He's pretty much an anti-masker pro-vaxer. So I thought I would do a pitch to you guys. So I created a pitch and feel free to say yes or no. But yeah, I've got a backup plan if you do say no.
Okay. Okay, so imagine a world with no wives, women or children. You should have got like a like a trailer voice guy to read this and you should have played it for like Martin. Yeah, I know I just didn't have enough time to plan this.
Just beers, bros and boats. That's right guys. I'm talking about a two day getaway that starts with a lightning fast three and a half hour drive to Eagle Lake and ends with that refresh feeling that can only be achieved after you record a podcast on a boat. To reiterate the plan we record a pod on a boat at the cottage that my family.