Season 3, Episode 15 | For God and Country: How Religious Pluralism Shaped the American Founding

When we think of the American Founders, we typically imagine figures like Washington, Jefferson, and Madison—all Protestant gentlemen. But what about the Catholics? And how did a nation built on religious establishments become a model for religious pluralism?In this episode of This Constitution, Matthew Brogdon and James Patterson, associate professor of public affairs at the Institute for American Civics at the University of Tennessee, explore the religious landscape of early America and the surprising role that Catholics, Baptists, Quakers, and other minority groups played in shaping the nation’s commitment to religious freedom.The conversation begins with the often-overlooked Catholic founders, including Charles Carroll of Carrollton, a signer of the Declaration of Independence, and John Carroll, the first Catholic bishop in the United States and founder of Georgetown University. Their experiences reveal how religious minorities helped shape the early republic.Brogdon and Patterson then turn to the debates that led to disestablishment in the states, focusing on Virginia’s struggle over whether the government should tax citizens to support clergy. Ultimately, Americans discovered that removing religion from political competition lowered tensions among religious groups and protected liberty of conscience for all. The result was a uniquely American approach to religion and politics: a system where many faiths could flourish without direct state control. Let’s dive in.In This Episode(01:12) Catholic founders and Maryland’s history(02:19) Catholic experience in colonial America(03:17) Catholic representation and treatment(04:34) Religious pluralism in colonial America(07:27) Suspicion of Catholics and religious freedom(09:13) Reasoning behind religious pluralism(10:01) Jefferson, Madison, and the religious freedom bill(12:33) Weakness of the Anglican establishment in the South(15:57) Class and financial issues in church establishments(19:29) Disestablishment and religious pluralism(20:24) Harvard and the concentration of religious power(21:14) Support for pastors vs. modern vouchers(23:30) Patrick Henry’s defense and its limits(24:23) Religious schools vs. church subsidies(27:15) Catholic bishops and American ecclesiology(29:02) John Carroll’s appointment and Georgetown(31:24) French Catholic influence and Washington’s supportNotable Quotes(06:52) "They were also very upset that the British, after winning Quebec, retained its Catholic establishment. They could not believe this.” —James Patterson(08:05) "One of the causes for unique suspicion of Catholics was a very legitimate concern that Catholics were trying to usurp political authority. I mean, this is the thing that happened with Mary, Queen of Scots. There was the Guy Fawkes attack on Parliament, and then there had been the tumult of James II. And so there was a very big concern." —James Patterson(08:59) "So religious freedom was, as Michael Breidenbach puts it, it was 'dear-bought,' right? " It was one that they fought on the battlefield to secure, and it was important that they did so in order to earn that trust that was maybe not so earned yet." —James Patterson(13:08) “Madison actually traveled to see one of these people preach from his prison cell. Their congregants would gather outside, and they would preach through the prison bars.” —Matthew Brogdon(24:00) "Why do people have to tithe to the state first for the state to then give that to the church? Can't they just tithe to their own church?" —Matthew Brogdon(25:55) “You mutually benefit from the protection of conscience rights much more than you do from the competition over state patronage.." —James Patterson