Season 4, Episode 3 | How Do You Govern When You’re Also Fighting a War?

When we talk about America's founding, we tend to jump straight from the Declaration of Independence to the Constitution. But what held the country together in the eleven years between? What happened after independence was declared? Who ran the war? Who paid for the army? And how did thirteen quarreling states manage to hold together long enough to win?In this episode, co-hosts Savannah Eccles Johnston and Matthew Brogdon dive into the much-maligned Articles of Confederation, the nation’s first written constitution. They ask whether the Articles deserve their bad reputation, or whether they were actually a surprisingly effective revolutionary government. Topics include the tension between “perpetual union” and state sovereignty, the five-year ratification battle over western lands, the complete absence of an executive or judiciary, and how George Washington’s personal restraint prevented a military coup.The episode also explores the Articles’ genuine successes: the Northwest Ordinance, which governed slavery in the territories for 70 years, the creation of ad hoc executive departments run by people like Robert Morris, and the lessons that shaped the 1787 Constitution. Along the way, Johnston and Brogdon debate the European Union as a modern analogy, mourn the death of geography education, and ask whether a government that can’t tax but can win a war deserves more credit than it gets.Tune in to learn why the Articles of Confederation, clunky, slow, and underpowered, might just be the most underrated constitution in American history.In This Episode(00:00) Introduction(01:02) What problem were the Articles designed to solve?(02:08) Drafting the Articles of Confederation(03:44) Was America building a nation or a league of states?(04:15) “Perpetual union” versus state sovereignty(05:24) Why federalism was still an unfinished idea(06:23) Building a government while fighting a war(07:12) Comparing the Articles to the European Union(09:02) The rise of an American identity distinct from Europe(10:42) The structure of the Confederation Congress(11:28) Why Congress struggled to function effectively(13:22) Why deliberative assemblies struggle during wartime(16:05) The dangers of having no executive branch(18:08) Committees, enforcement, and the limits of the Articles(19:02) How America still managed to win the Revolution(19:41) Why ratification took five years(20:22) Western land disputes and Maryland’s veto(21:02) Did the Declaration itself function as a constitution?(22:24) Sea-to-sea charters and the fight over western territories(24:03) Why geography matters in civic education(25:56) The Confederation Congress and Western Lands Policy(28:11) Fear of tyranny versus fear of ineffective government(28:35) Madison, factions, and the logic of federalism(31:19) Did the Articles accomplish their real purpose?(32:01) The Northwest Ordinance and territorial expansion(33:32) Why foreign affairs exposed the Articles’ weaknesses(34:04) “The plane did fly,”  reassessing the Articles(34:17) George Washington and civilian control of the military(35:53) How America avoided military dictatorship(37:04) The ad hoc executive departments of the Revolution(37:53) Final reflections on America’s first government  Notable Quotes(01:02) "If you're going to win a war, you have to have a government. Armies don't equip themselves." — Matthew Brogdon(06:18) "They really are building the plane while flying it. They are engaged in the act of constructing these institutions in the middle of fighting a war." — Matthew Brogdon(12:41) "The Articles of Confederation treated things as though this was a league of sovereign states — and then it gives the confederation responsibilities that belong to a government, not just a diplomatic assembly." — Matthew Brogdon(18:01) "A government without an executive and a judicial power to carry the laws into execution is like a body without arms and legs to act and move." — Matthew Brogdon, quoting Madison(19:21) "It was a fairly effective revolutionary government, as revolutionary governments go. You can think of some really not successful ones." — Savannah Eccles Johnston(34:05) "Congress does build the plane while flying it, but the plane does fly — it's a bit of a clunker, but it got the job done." — Matthew Brogdon(35:50) "At least part of what allowed them to be successful was Washington's restraint." — Savannah Eccles Johnston(36:29) "Without people making the right choices, without people taking virtuous action, the best-laid structure is not going to save you from disaster or tyranny." — Matthew Brogdon(37:59) "They did the job they were supposed to do. They didn't dissolve into anarchy. They didn't become a tyranny — because of the civic virtue of George Washington." — Savannah Eccles JohnstonResources and LinksThis Constitution  Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-constitution/id1771900485Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0IQCq5DUPWlImiAdc4t3pf?si=85085b24b55b4130Website: https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/projects/this_constitution_podcast.htmlYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@centerforconstitutionalstu8915/videosSavannah Eccles Johnstonlinkedin.com/in/savannah-eccles-johnston-515a72198https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/people/savannah_eccles_johnston.htmlMatthew Brogdonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-brogdon-8a21bb89/https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/people/matthew_brogdon.htmlRecommended ReadingThe Articles of Confederation: The First Constitution of the United States (primary source)Ratification by Pauline MaierThe Quartet by Joseph J. Ellis