Semantic UI Returns

We'll go back everyone. This is the Change Logging on your host, Adam Stikoviak. This is episode 164, and on today's show, we're joined by Jack Luchek. Jack is back talking about Samantha QI again.

We had him back on episode 106 almost a year and a half ago, and that was before Samantha QI was at 1.0. So that's pre 1.0. Well, now, Samantha QI is at 2.0, so a lot of new changes, a lot of new additions, and we dug deep into a lot of the details about Samantha QI, but we also talked quite a bit with Jack about why and how, because Jack is doing Samantha QI full-time. It's crazy.

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I remember back we got a returning guest, Jack Lucas, the maker of Symantec UI. Back in episode 106, it was not me and Jared, right, Jared? That's a bummer, right? It was me and Andrew.

It's a good show. I listened to it today. It was an excellent show. But yes, bummer that I wasn't on there.

Yeah, but, say hello to Andrew. We miss you, buddy, but that was a good show as well. 106, that was October 5, 2013, almost a year and a half ago, just you ever take a few days or something like that, seconds or whatever, but Jack, you're back. That was when you were here at 106, that was pre 1.0, and you've gone through 1.0.

You got to touch with us on our Ping repo on GitHub. We didn't end up syncing up, and now you're at 2.0, so we miss 1.0, now we're at 2.0, Symantec UI. Welcome back to the show. Thanks.

It's great to be here. Talk to you guys. And just to summarize a bit from the last show, Jared, feel free to step in and help me as well. But, Jack, you're a language guy, right?

You began one of the languages, and that's why you're really into the semantics of the web, and that's how you got into what you're doing with Symantec UI. Am I right? Yeah. So I saw you find your science for my undergrad.

I've always been sort of interested in the way that computer language is a bit different than natural languages, and trying to sort of understand what a programming language would look like in the year 2100, or what programming languages, what directions are they moving? So that's obviously a very large, broad question, so I try to sort of scope it in context of what we can do today to sort of change programming languages to sort of look at these features of future programming. Very cool. And we've, Jared, we've been, we've talked about Zeldman, at least one first in the show before, right?

We've talked about the standards, that was a big deal, and obviously Symantec's matter, but as we start getting into the days today when people are sort of targeting the DOM, it's a little less concern, not complete no concern, but a little less concern about Symantec's. I'm wondering if we can bring that up at some point during the show, but maybe some more interesting things might be, Jack, what your situation is, making this project? Sure. So I think when you talk to me last, I've tried to replay in my head when I was doing 2013.

I was working at a startup previously called Quarky. If you don't know about Quarky, Quarky is a social invention company. People submit ideas for consumer products on their website, and then they convert them into real products and then share the proceeds with the inventor. So I left there a couple of years ago.

Symantec at the time was actually the codename of an internal redesign at Quarky, which sort of involved, like we're scaling the team from, you know, the company was 50 people at the time, and by the end of the year it was 150 people, so it was becoming a very different company overnight. And so for me, I was the lead friend developer at the time. I was trying to sort of work out the idea of how you get a bunch of developers to code on a platform together without having to deal with the idiosyncrasies of individual developer preference, naming conventions, and that kind of stuff. And so for me, what was really exciting was going back to all this source material, which fascinated me when I was younger, about sort of how people construct meaning.

And so Symantec UI is sort of a byproduct of that. It's kind of a new understanding, not that new, I guess, but it's a unique understanding of how people should construct meaning through programming languages. And so it's a UI framework, you know, the nuts and bolts, there's a bunch of things you can plug into your website that has drop downs and modals and all that kind of stuff. The language behind it is based off of natural language.

It uses relationships like plurality, non-notifier relationships, tents, things that are sort of constructs from natural languages, which sort of help people write non-prescriptive front end code. So everyone has their own way of calling something something, and working with Symantec UI gives you a single language, which is maybe not objective, but more objective than deciding at this particular moment what you want to call something. So yeah, I was working at Quirky, when I left, Ben, the CEO there was really wonderful, also Nathan Smith, the head CTO there, both were great and they let me open source the project, I continued to work on it afterwards. And it was kind of one of those things where if you just finish a very grueling startup, and I kind of took it easy, I traveled for a while, I went through Southeast Asia and all that kind of stuff, and I came out and I was just like, I still don't want to work on this.

Like this thing is still really important to me. And so I sort of went from there. Yeah. So it sounds like this is a solo project.

You might have some contributors, which I haven't even gone to the tab on GitHub yet, but I'm going to do that here right now so I don't put my foot in my mouth, but it sounds a bit like it's basically a solo project with 106 other people that I just let the contributors down. Well, seriously, it's totally 104. So yeah, we have 800 translators, we have 100 contributors, lots of issues open every day. It's great.

It's one of those things where I realize the more you make something accessible, the broader of the scope of people that will be helping you out, like every time they're like, it becomes less like a programming language and more like something that people understand, then you get these first time GitHub contributors with no avatar, just leaving their first issue, which is actually literally my favorite thing is because all the first time contributors are probably the best. They have the most insight, they come from perspective where they're from some other industry, they're from finance, they want to make a website. So yeah, it's been really great. I think for me at least the way I think about the project, I'm afraid of what it means to have too many cooks and a kitchen in terms of naming and language and conventions.

So obviously, hundreds of whole requests, lots of contributors. But generally, I'm sure everyone has their own take on open source, but generally for me, I feel like the people who contribute are solving very particular issues with like road mapping and like planning the scope of the project, it's very much like the work of a few individuals. And so yeah, it's been great to you with integrations, like the whole ecosystem has changed since we last talked to like Meteor React, all these new technologies and people who know those things back very well and sort of like having Angular integrations, having Meteor packages, it's been wonderful having community help with that. So we'll definitely dive a bit deeper into those two nuances there that you brought up.

But for those who haven't listened to episode 106, which is at changelaw.com slash one zero six, for those who haven't listened to that, can you give the one liner about what semantic UIS before we kind of dive deep into the what's the wise in house? Yeah, sure. So naming is arbitrary. Samantha why tries to give conventions based around natural language for parts of a website.

So these aren't things that are part of the W three spec, these are things that are part of to what the user community has, you know, began to call things. So the idea of a sidebar, which is like an off-campus navigation that appears that concept didn't exist 10 years ago, the W3C can't really adapt to create a standard around that. And so my goal is to sort of create working standards for, you know, people who want to use these kind of components, but don't really want to, you know, create their own, you know, from scratch. Yeah.

So this is a lot, and maybe we'll get more into the details here as we go on, but I'm kind of going back, Jared. You said you went back and listened to 106 and that kind of purposely didn't either that wrong or lazy one of the two to go back and listen to it because I was there and you weren't so, you know, there you go, but nevertheless, it seemed to me like semantic UI was a bit more focused on being an implemented standard versus a framework itself. Is that easy? Is that somewhat the idea?

So just I'll go back into the linguistic roots of here is what's personally interesting to me and sort of why, you know, why I'm obsessed with this idea is I think there's a fundamental difference between program languages and natural languages and trying to figure out in what aspects are program languages better at constructing meanings and what aspects are they were second to constructing meaning that the natural languages. And so I think there's sort of a schism between meaning as constructive computers, which involves databases, you know, memory, different constructs for computers, and then there's meaning for people. And so the way I see it currently is that things have to do with presentation, market languages are in a very unique position because they benefit most from these features of natural language. So humans are cognitive risers.

You know, we've spent between 15, 100,000 years evolving language to use the least amount of sounds, you know, to construct the most meaning. And so I'm fascinated by that. You imagine if we had 100,000 years of computer science history, what that would mean. And so for me, it's trying to sort of work through what those features of natural language are that are useful and how they apply to program languages.

So in terms of presentation, websites are kind of like virtual scenes. There are things on a page. They're HTML is unique in the sense that it fits very well into this natural language system for describing things. It's like, you might have three buttons on a page, there might be three large buttons.

You have this concept of now, not a five relationship. The largeness is shared between three buttons, plurality, like you don't need to say there's a button and a large button and a large button, but you understand very clearly. And in programming, we have this idea of classical inheritance, classes of things, but we don't necessarily break it down into the same nuance, the natural language does, where words are classes of things, like to me, the idea of a word and a class is the same thing. But in English, basically every natural language, there's an idea of a significant word order.

So for instance, if I say three large men versus, you know, excuse me, this is a bad example. If I say, in terms of a website, a right aligned, left-floted column, you understand that right refers to the alignment and left refers to where the column sits on the page. Whereas when we look at classes in HTML, everyone's used to just saying, well, left means this and right means this. Well, in English, it doesn't actually have a meaning, it only has meaning in context of other classes.

And so this is what I'm really fascinated with, is sort of trying to reverse engineer this amazing system for constructing meaning which we have in natural language. So things that are interesting in the library, it's like that exact example actually plays out, where certain class names have meaning only in relation to its position in terms of word order. So for instance, you could have in the grid system a right aligned, left-floted column, and it understands because you put right before the word aligned, you didn't mean right-floted or you didn't mean right something else, you meant this particular concept. So yeah, it's kind of, obviously, this is a very nascent field, like this is something that people will be expanding on for decades to come.

But I'm really excited to sort of explore it more and try to really reverse engineer language. So you've had roughly a year and a half since the previous show, I think you're at zero not three at the time, to watch it evolve a little bit. And so could you take us from then to now the evolution of semantic UI and then kind of prognostic a bit, where do you see an end goal or a future end of the road looks like for a project like this? Sure.

So yeah, so when we talked last, the project was a pure CSS library, there was no pre-processing. When I launched 1.0, one of the things I realized is that all these concepts, largeness, redness are represented by variables, there's things that a user wants to find what largeness means to me or what redness means to me in the context of certain elements. And so I built this library out and internally it ended up being 3000 plus CSS variables. So a very, very large amount of things are arbitrary in sort of definitions.

So I sort of worked back from that, I created an inheritance system where I was really fascinated with some line text at the time. And it was one of the things that came out of the ether, I don't know if you remember when Sublime Text was coming out, but it was like, what the f is this, this is insane, who is this genius and why does he have no Twitter followers? I was fascinated by the concept. And he still does it, he just exists as this like mad genius that doesn't want to be in the limelight.

And it's obviously the best thing for texting, there's other choices Adam and so on, but it was so good that it was insane at the time. And for me, in terms of all sorts of types of art and literature, I'm into these people who sort of create without a concept of ego, they just do it because they have some idea. And he was like, he was one of my idols. And so I was looking at some line text and they have a very simple package system that just perfectly makes sense.

It's there's three levels of inheritance, there's a user settings file, there's the package defaults, and then there's just the defaults for Sublime Text. And it seems ridiculous, but I was like, this is so easy, why doesn't everything work off of this? And so I've put that lots of different inheritance models for CSS and, you know, SaaS and less, everything is just like floating in this global namespace where it's like, if you define red later in the file, it actually like changes the, you know, the red variable, you know, anywhere else in that compilation. So it was a very basic sense of inheritance.

And so I tried to sort of reverse engineer this Sublime Text inheritance model, I came up with a system that works out of a default theme, a package theme, and a slight theme. And so, you know, you have library defaults, which are very neutral, just sort of how the UI components look. Then you have this concept of a package theme, which is like the hypothetical, as you're saying, you know, the future of the library. If there's a package manager, then you can download, you know, the GitHub button, let's say, that looks like a GitHub button.

But then you have this third level, which is like, well, great, I don't have that package, but I still have some things I want to customize. And so there's a third level, which is like a site theme, so it's basically like a user override. You know, I've down with this theme, I've overrided the default theme, but I also want to add my own, you know, my own colors or, you know, other variables. So yeah, so I've launched 1.0, which goes off of these massive amount of theme and variables, and this three level inherited system.

And it was, I was happy with it, but it was also one of those things that feels like that pure character, where you like, you finish it, and then you're like, ah, you know, you do a little dance in your room, and then you launch out of the world, and you just wait. And it's hard, because like, you know, these open source is one of those things where I feel like people don't discover it until they have any projects, they have like, you know, they lift their heads up, they have to think they're used to, and then you have to convince them of something they've never heard of. It's a difficult proposition. And so, so yeah, so one point I was really happy with, around that time, I actually went back to working on Samantha Y.

Fulltime. So previous to that, I had a, and this is my back into the personal life, but I was working as a consultant for this magazine, The New Republic. So it was a great place to test out the ideas of what frame like this would look like and sort of, you know, helped evolve the standard 1.0, but then sort of 1.0 launch, I kind of went full tilt into the, doing it for doing it. And yeah, I sort of gave up the day job, and since I have sort of been working on it, full time, you know, without pay, and just sort of enjoying it for, you know, the ideas.

And so yeah, it's kind of at least who I am now. And our pre-call when Jared and I sort of prepare ourselves for the guest, he was telling me he went back and listened to that episode, and one thing that you did say was that you started working on it full time in that episode, and that Andrew and I just sort of like just glazed over the idea that you just said that you were working on this open source project full time. And we just didn't dig in. So let's dig into that.

I mean, it astounds me, let's preface this section, I guess, a bit with the fact that there's so much open source out there that you don't often understand as a user or someone who's just sort of determining what's out at their fingertips available to use, what kind of sacrifice goes into making something happen, or the passion, like you've talked about, Jack, that you've got for language and simplicity and all these different things and how it's played into making semantic UI what it is. And I feel like, you know, there's a part of this show that can help foster and help explain some of the behind the scenes there on the motivations from you, the way that you've done it in the past year and a half, and it's at your leisure to share whatever personal details you want. But I think it's an interesting topic to figure out while you're doing it and how you're doing it without, you know, a job. Yeah.

No, yeah. This is something for me. It's very philosophical. I mean, we live in a western country.

We have a very unique concept of what, you know, being subsisting us. And for me, you know, I'm a programmer, I've been doing this, you know, since college, and I just realized, you know, what I actually need is much less than what I think I need. And the thing that really matters to me is ideas. And so I've sort of given up on the idea of pursuing the most profitable, you know, direction and I've gone just towards trying to cultivate the ideas that mean most to me.

And I know that sounds like I really hate even saying that out loud because it sounds terrible. But for me, it's just, you know, my last patient was last July, so I'm going on about a year now. It's one of those things where I like, I just imagine myself, you know, later in life and thinking there's this period in my life where I had the most potential to do something. And the idea of using that potential to, you know, start to are wonderful and, you know, they add much value to the world.

But for me, to use that potential to, you know, help optimize the profit margins to start up is not necessarily the best way to use your best years. And I mean, this is obviously a very personal decision, but for me, I was just really excited about going down that rabbit hole. And I think a lot of people, this is actually for me really interesting, my girlfriend's a librarian, and I see there's a whole other type of world where people just make decisions all the time, not based on money, they just make decisions based on morals or values or other things. They're so good at what they do that they're able to actually cover this up really well.

But I think that they're generally programmers are making decisions based on optimizing, utility and optimizing for value. And I, you know, I've tried not to do that. It's brought me in a sort of, you know, weird place where you're down the road and I'm like, you know, I had whatever savings there is and it's been eaten through. But I could not imagine wanting to do it any other way, you know.

I think also, when you think about how many of its projects are in the world and, you know, people perching from different directions, it's the thing that I'm really wary of is, I mean, there are startups that use open source as part of a marketing campaign and sort of part of hiring developers or like evangelizing a platform. And I think it has, it has you value when the ideas are so good that they can't be defeated, like react, everyone's like, this is too damn good, like this could have felt for like any company and we would still be using this. But I find it kind of disparaging when open source is not necessarily used to, you know, promote independent ideas but more to, you know, promote agendas of startups or software companies. And obviously, this is a very Islamic issue.

I mean, I have lots of opinions here, but I'm sure there's lots of opinions here. But for me, it's, I really enjoy, like, I have different maintainers than, like, I really like who I know have a certain following or, you know, but they just do it in perpetuity without like any sort of like pat on the back. And I've like, I've always been fascinated by that. And also like looking back at literature and looking back at things that are like, you know, I enjoyed my life in terms of other people's creations.

I think it's those people who get to create without like expectation that they won't immediately be understood. And I don't necessarily think that obviously all these things are very loaded terms because, you know, we're talking in the context of being interviewed on a program, but like, just in terms of inspiration, like just talking about other people, this is the most inspiring man. I've been trying to sort of pursue that idea of the programming and, you know, whether it's a theatre fail, it's kind of, you know, a code, I guess. Yeah, I mean, I think, I see, I definitely see some of your points.

I think that, you know, innovation can come from many different areas and a spectrum and people do open source for different reasons, some fewer than others. And yet, at the end of the day, I think what we like about software, especially open source software, that we can all see and inspect and use and contribute to is that, and maybe this is a romantic thought, but at the end of the day, it does, it does speak for itself, like the product, right? Regardless of you, if you're a Facebook, you know, and you're working on a react or you're, you know, Jack Lucas, who's working on semantic for free, you know, without any income at all, like your project is going to succeed or fail to a large extent on, you know, its value proposition. And so there's this great leveling that happens.

That being said, as the H.H. said quite often in our show with him that, you know, marketing has a big aspect of it and there's plenty of other factors, but there's kind of that romantic utilitarian meritocracy aspect of open source. And you're taking definitely a different angle than many people take at it. So just a borrow start up term, what's what your runway look like?

No, actually, it was not expecting that one, the runway is, you know, there's when a start to fall, and then there's, you know, when a person would fall, and for me it's, you know, I don't know if there's a runway, it's, I'll be doing this for the rest of my life because the idea is important to me. Whether or not it succeeds in this project will probably be decided soon, but, you know, this, it's about ideas. And like, even like, the ideas that are kind of like unpolished and unrefined will eventually come around in terms of new projects and it's sort of different endeavors and that's always used to make you eyes. I mean, I don't say this at the same time, I'm like, top 20 jobs per project, top 35 overall of any language you can have.

It's succeeding, right? And I'm very happy with the community and the community is amazing. But other than that, you know, it's, if, if for some reason it needs to, you know, be evolved in a new way, then it will evolve, like it's, for me, the thing that's important though is just, you know, the underlying ideas and just sort of new way of thinking about programming and kind of relating programming back to natural language. And I think also, it's hard to, because like, once you have a name to something and you like call it, like, this set of ideas that I've been talking about programs now called Semantic UI, like, if you want to use it from your talk about it, it was just a set of ideas.

But as soon as it's like, this is now a project that you can choose to like or not like, start or not start, follow or not follow. It like adds this whole sense of like attachment and, you know, it puts you at the realm of all these things which are harder to deal with it, which is like, you know, self-concept and, you know, putting into a marketplace and, and, and, and, and the stars and stuff, can we mention the stars that you got that you got 18,473 as of right now, at least 18,473 stars and 2013 forks and 967 people watching this thing. So it's, like you said, it's in the top 25, I didn't go on with the indexes, but it's now like CSS and JavaScript and the top 25 on GitHub for those. So it's, it's really popular.

Yeah. I mean, it's nice to see like, I don't remember the exact rankings, but I remember there's, like, there's some libraries that I really respected when I was getting in the range of, you know, and also it's interesting to think about there's, there's lots of fun to open source libraries now. Like, you'll get meteors last round when they're raised from injuries and formats, or you look at, you know, Ionic or other frameworks, which are wonderful projects, which I love. But the caveat being that they have a bank roll now and they can make decisions, understand making, you know, bank roll developers.

And those people, like, that's almost what it takes to get into that ballpark. And once you get into the top 20s, it's like, you look around, it's people who are bankroll to Facebook, people who are bankroll that Google and best to start off. And so as this, as, you know, doing the old source, the old model of like, just doing open source development and how they're using this kind of stuff, it's really hard to make traction once you get to that point without, like, having, you know, some sort of juice. So let's talk about that for a second, because something that stood out to me that you just said was, you said that the fate of this project will be determined soon.

When Jared asked you about runway, you sort of talked about your own personal runway and it was mixed. It was like, there was a little bit of your own personal runway. And that was indefinite because you said that this is really passionate for you and you're even doing it. But then there was another side of it that you said, the fate of this project will be determined soon.

Can you talk a little bit about like, what that, what you meant by that? Was there some background meaning behind that? Yeah, sure. So yeah, it's two point out, you know, I was really excited about one point out.

It was one of those things where I watched into the world and, you know, had no concept of money at the time. I was just sort of, you know, eating through savings and being okay with it. And yeah, two points out and it's six months of work. I mean, I know it's really hard to like, explain what that means, but like literally just me going to an office for six months and working full time.

And it's getting to a point where, you know, just to have the project continue on, there needs to be some sort of way making sustainable. And you know, that's often the idea of a Kickstarter. And I just sort of felt really awkward about that concept of like, because we already have a product that's not like, I'd have to, you know, get people to make all future product. And so yeah, I'm just, I'm trying to figure out a more sustainable way to do it.

I've asked people for donations in the past and by the way, I want to call out how amazing the community is. Like I've, I've launched, I had like a $250 donation, like last few months I've had, you know, between 500 and 750 bucks in donations per month, people have been really amazing about that. And I think also that's part of like, when people, when you have community that understands kind of what you're doing, like in terms of, you know, not having any money coming in and working a project like this, they're really eager to help. And I think that's the part that's like been really sobering about all this is that, like even if, even if you don't charge for anything, like people understand that there's some sort of social responsibility to open source, like that things don't just exist in either.

And I think when we talked last time, like, gets it was just coming out. And I think, yeah, it's been really nice to see that. But yeah, I guess in terms of what you specifically asked, I think I'm not to find some new financial model for the project, if it's going to continue to develop, it has had previously, because you can't just not work for multiple years, living in a city like New York. No, absolutely.

I mean, I kind of wish we got a bit more of the how you've done that and why you've done that. I'm not sure we've got some of the top school to hit up, but we got a sponsor break to do here in a second. I'm almost tempted just to have a little bit deeper into the, into the money situation because Jared, you referenced 145 with David, we talked about financing open source and he's very against getting paid to open source. And so Jack is the exact anti DHA, so to speak, in terms of getting paid to open source and it's this full time thing.

So, you know, there's Patreon get it was there, what is it called now, Jared? There's a new version. Gratape. Have you been using that?

I saw flatter on the read me. Yeah. So is that the primary way that people have been helping you finance this so that you don't have a full time job and you can work on the full time? I wish I feel like I am one of the more well-funded product projects, like in terms of the community coming back.

But, you know, $500 a month is wonderful. Like, it really helps. But in terms of like being able to, you know, live a long term. Yeah.

My rent is to double that. You know, I have to eat food too. So I'm like, have it. You have to eat?

What? Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was like a replay.

You can fork and eat that or something like that. All right. Well, this may sound tongue-in-cheek, but seriously, have you considered moving? The traveling aspect really helped with that, like, you know, cost of living in Thailand or something.

Yeah. So she, the girlfriend sort of makes it hard now. Yeah. Yeah.

So let's go ahead and use that as a chance to go ahead and pause and listen to what it wants. When we get back, we're going to talk more about adoption. We'll begin with, you know, how you adopt or how you begin to use semantic UI. And then we're curious to know who out there is using semantic UI.

You mentioned possibility of users. So sometimes someone adopts it and starts to use it and they actually give back financially to it. But let's go ahead and break and we'll come back and talk about that. All right.

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Get started on Sharking Your Skills today at CodeSchool.com. Once again, that is CodeSchool.com. All right. We're back and now it is time with Jack to dive a little bit deeper to figure out two things here.

One, how do you use or the other where we can use this adopt? How do you adopt semantic? How can you begin to use it? Is it in the question there?

Is it all in or is it two in the water? How does it work? Right. So going back to the analogy of Subantex, I'm sure it has the first Subantex experience.

So if you're down this new editor, what the hell is this? So for semantic, it's npm install semantic.ui. And again, it's sort of, I don't know how you feel about this, but for me, Bauer and other package managers are kind of on the way out in terms of managing dependencies. And again, it's sort of the go-to point.

One of the things wonderful about using npm is that we have an interactive installer, which kind of feels like installing one of those adventure games when you were 12 years old. Yeah. So it asks you questions. It's like, are you a right-to-left user?

Do you need to choose which components you want to use and so on? One of the things I'm actually really excited about adding in 2.1, is are you familiar with PureFi CSS? Just by name. It's another details.

Sure. So the thing that, like, the first feedback I always get on having a monolithic UI framework is everyone's like, that's great. But like, what if I just need one button? What do I do?

Well, my answer previously was just like, well, just choose from the interactive installer button. But my new answer is in 2.1, I'm going to be including PureFi, which basically what it does is it goes to your HTML and your JavaScript, and looks at what you actually use, and then changes the CSS to only include CSS that is used in your HTML. So if you want to use semantic, you don't have to worry about this, you know, seminary code by download. You can just, you know, specify your output, you know, your HTML folder, and then it'll go great.

Well, whenever you start using a new class name in HTML, then we'll just add that class name to the CSS. How does that work across dynamic pages? Yeah, I thought the same thing until I went to the repo, and I was like, wow. It works.

Yeah, it just works. It's magic. It's like, it's some special magic of Sony open source. You need to create it.

The next step is voodoo magic on their readme. Oh. That's better than auto magical, which I was never a fan of that term, but voodoo magic sounds pretty rad. Yeah.

So back to the sort of the overview. So you saw it on npm, it asked you questions with components to use. And then it goes into a folder with a, you know, it has basically two folders, a SERP folder, like a source folder, and a dist folder, which is the CSS, the option, including your page. And so the way it works is kind of like subline text where, you know, you download a package and you're like, well, my, I like two spaces for dance instead of four.

And so you open up a file that's a user file in terms of semantic, it's, you know, SERP slash site slash global slash site variables. And so you open that up and you say, well, I want, you know, read to be this color. And then the, the build tools that are built into the project compile any change that happens, and then, you know, changes the, the output CSS to sort of match your, your changes. So it's, if you're familiar with bootstrap or foundations like that, but instead of it being you know, I just import this library and just start writing like override variables, it's a more structured system, which I think actually benefits projects because it means that, you know, if you want to start a new project and you have, you know, all these defaults already set, then you don't have to worry about like cutting and pasting parts of the CSS file that have to do with, you know, a menu or a button, you actually have a dedicated file to that.

And so I think that's, for me, this is a huge thing for HTML developers is to start taking in terms of UI. Like when you're customizing a menu or a button, like put that in a special file called button, you know, and then realize that when you're going to a new project, that you need to, you know, take those particular changes and if you want to reuse a button, then, you know, it's there. So yeah, it's a new, it's kind of a more fragmented approach, which I think people have a hard time getting used to at first because they want everything to be in there like monolithic, you know, index.css file or whatever. But once you get used to separating it, I think it really helps you in long run, and it sort of makes it very easy to, you know, create the project.

So it does sound like it is an all in thing, but it's going to strip out the stuff that you're not using. So it's not like you get all the weight of all the components that you don't necessarily use. And there's individual repos for each component. So if you're just like, I just need to drop down and I'd rather use your select drop down than, you know, another one, then you can just, you know, MPM install a semantic dash UI dash drop down and you got that.

So, so yeah, it's basically, here's one of the things I've had actually a really huge issue with it, which I would be interested in, you know, talking more about, is that open source developers, it's like, you have this idea of, you have an opinion idea of how people should use a project, which for me is this like inheritance system. But then you just have how people actually use a product. And so you have people who use Angular, people who use Ember, people who use Meteor, who have their own package managers, you have, you know, people who just want to use browserify and you're like, oh, everything is compiled like, you know, from MPM dependencies. And all of those are different packages with like different, you know, metadata, like different, you know, things to manage.

And what's really fascinating to me is like trying to be a developer who has like, this is how I think you should use it. But at the same time, I'm just one dumb idiot in a room. And if you want to use it like in, you know, another way, then here's another way to use it. So yeah, it's been really interesting.

The community's been really, you know, wonderful with that where like, I personally have never used Ember, but the guys who manage the Ember integrations are amazing and like have a faster response time than me sometimes with issues, which is kind of embarrassing. But at the same time, I'm like, wow, let's thank you for caring about ecosystem, which I have yet to, you know, dig into as your policy on integrations, like those are all third-party open source deals, or do you have any free integrations with any of the popular frameworks or backends? You guys, are you guys game or so all casual gamer? My former life.

In the 10 to 64 days, there was a game called Banjo-Kazooie. Oh, now you're right. I'm wheelhouse. Yeah, exactly.

All right. So that was what I think it was like a second-party game, which is like, you're not necessarily a third-party, because like, the organization that's in charge, like, all right, right, you're great, like, we're going to release and really promote you. And that's how I feel with integrations. I'm like, it's really hard for open-source developers to like have a repo hosted on their own username on GitHub, and like, they're trying to like promote it.

So I'm like, anyone who I find used to doing a good work with, you know, an integration, I tried to, you know, get a semantic org repo and sort of, you know, promote it in the main repo with the readme and like, integration stocks and so on, just so that like, they understand they're part of the community and they're like, everything that you do has, you know, has purpose and value in terms of, you know, contributing to a larger good. And so I think that's, for me also, like, that's a hard part to deal with is trying to remember your contacts in terms of community. I think, like, in the pre-show we talked about this, like, everything you do in open-source is like, it's just a commit going into it either. And so you have to understand, like, where that commit fits into, like, the people who are using that library, like, you know, the other people who have dependencies on your project, you know, add onto it.

And so for me, I really want to like, make sure that people understand that when they, like, take the time to make, you know, a WordPress integration or something like that, that may not get, you know, a massive amount of stars in GitHub, that they're still doing really good work, and that, like, they need to, you know, feel some praise and, like, you know, some, like, kind of an action on that. So on that note of the examples, I think I found, paging back through the work, here's, like, semantic UICSS, semantic UI less, and then keeping that same prefix, you got Meteor, Meteor data, beta docs, Amber, Angular, is that what you mean when you talk about the integration? Oh, yeah. Yeah, completely.

And I think it's something, since we last talked about, I'm sorry to understand more, is that, like, once you just, like, put that team jersey on some, you're like, all right, we're part of the team now, and, like, here's this official repo, like, suddenly they understand that, like, you know, their work is valued, like, there's this community that will appreciate everything they do. And I think, like, like, that's such a wonderful transformation for me, it's, like, just watching people, like, go from, like, this is my first time, you know, contributing integration to, like, I'm in the maintainer of this official integration that's, like, other people are depending on, and that's, like, that's really powerful. What's on that note, what overhead is it for you, because it seems like you're giving a lot of the onus onto whomever really cares about it, what, what friction is it back onto you and the rest of the, uh, the contributors to the main repo, and how does it kind of tie into the main repo in the build process and whatnot? Yeah, I mean, it's hard to, like, channel the right issues back to the right place.

Like, media is a really popular integration now, and media is taking off, like, crazy. Um, but, you know, there's, there's a whole new pipeline for how people build with media, like, they have to have a special JSON file that, like, defines, you know, which components to use, and, uh, the maintainer of that project sort of decided, the, the, the site for that. Um, and, you know, when that's not working, you know, it's hard for people to differentiate between what's a, uh, some NQI problem and what's, like, an integration problem. Um, but, I mean, for me, it's really because, like, any of us is, you know, is a whole new community of people who wouldn't have, you should have, uh, used the product who are now, like, getting excited about it.

Um, yeah, it's the same with, like, Rails or, or, um, it's just one of those things where, like, as a developer, you choose communities you, you're involved in, and there's other communities that you know are wonderful communities that you just don't have the, you know, the depth of knowledge to be able to help out, um, and just having people have your back with that is wonderful. I'm here on the semantic UI Meteor repo, and I'm seeing custom dot semantic.json, and this looks a lot like your affinity for Sublime Text, and it's inheritance that you talked about, is that part of the layered, uh, I guess, variables that you can, settings you can use for, for Sublime? Um, yes, that actually is not part of it. That's actually, I would have to say, he does not, not part of it, but it was the guy, um, uh, I know I'm only by his GitHub username, so his actual name will see any Flame, uh, who's the creator?

Flame, yeah. Thank you. Uh, he has been great. He has some of the, you know, very popular, uh, projects on the atmosphere, which is the manager for, thanks manager for, for me here.

Um, it's just something that he picked up from, uh, the bootstrap, uh, project on atmosphere, which I, I think is specifically with the way that the, uh, the files are set in a media, um, it's much easier for them to just have a JSON file on the, the, uh, the top level that they can set that then triggers, um, uh, the less type lines you recompile the files, uh, correctly. Um, are you'd have to ask him about that? It seems like it seems like it's skiing off of what you were talking about earlier, which is why I thought it was something that was one of the official way of doing things. No, no, no, you're right.

I'm being actually a bit of a pedant because the actual project has a semantic dot JSON file, which is basically the exact same thing, um, has a different structure, um, and that's sort of how people decide, uh, what components include, what the input and output, you know, directory. Okay. Yeah. So everything works out of a configuration file.

Um, yeah. In terms of theming, um, there's a central config file that's like a theme doc config file. Um, so basically I was sort of describing this three-tiered system before. Um, when you download the project, all the config has every component set to default theme.

Um, you can just, any time after you download, you can open that file, change the theme to, you know, you can change button to GitHub or something or, uh, sites and material. Um, and, um, and theming is done sort of per component in the library, so you may choose to have a GitHub button, but a material, you know, site theme, so it would have all of, you know, Android fonts, but then that buttons that look like GitHub. And I think this is one of the things that for me is really differentiating is that I think theming is really nuanced. Like, everything is in terms of UI and when people are like, well, I just need to make my site, you know, look like a material design, well, I'm like, well, a site is a lot of different things.

Like a site is, uh, you know, several dozen UI components, each with their own, you know, custom look and feel. Um, and I think that when people start to like think about things that way and like distinguish in, you know, in terms of their branding, um, between, you know, how maybe they want, you know, a card system that looks like Instagram, um, but they want their buttons to look like material. Um, and, and just sort of like being able to differentiate that way, I think is really important. Um, and I guess that's like the difference between bootstrap or, uh, foundation is like, people are, in, in those contexts are just used to loading like one master theme file.

It's like everything across my website is like this. Um, and I think also like for the open source, you know, component, componentized web, like you have to start thinking in terms of like little tiny things that fit together. Um, and although the library is a big library of little tiny things together, really it's like it's a bunch of small components, like when it comes down to it. Every time I add to the library, it's like, it's another thing that you can just say that you don't want in your semantic.json file.

So it's like, you know, it's, it's, it's hope, I really hope that it doesn't turn into this thing that people are afraid of because they think it's too big. Um, I want to make sure that they make the decision really, really on to sort of make it small and limit it. Yeah. Just looking at the homepage.

I mean, your theme looks really, really nice. Um, one thought I had come into this is like, who's using semantic UI because, you know, like I know bootstraps out there and, you know, uh, in crazy mass and we see foundation and, and these other, those are the two big ones. But I was thinking, I don't really know any sites using it, but, you know, as a, as a user of a front end, nice, not knowing, um, you know, as developers, we get to a point where I can spot a bootstrap site a mile away, even if it's customized, and that's fine. Most users don't have a clue about these things.

But maybe just speaks to the quality of the seeming and the person, you know, the way you can personalize it that I don't actually know any sites that are, you know, semantic UI users. Um, you think that's true? A and B, could you give us a couple of examples to look at? Uh, yeah.

Um, I mean, in terms of public examples, um, the dicey, but it's being a kind of new technology, like, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I get personal emails for people and it's lots of like, you know, we're, we have a, a startup that has gotten, you know, series A or C funding, or using semantic UI. Um, and we don't have any other facing links yet, but we just find a, you know, good job and we're hoping to, you know, the library grows, like today, for instance, I guess I can say this publicly. I got an email from someone who is, I have Garmin Auto saying that they're using it and they're internal tools and just sort of like a, we can't put this on the GitHub, but, you know, thanks. I probably should say it's a lot.

That's actually. Um, but it was, it was one of those nice things. Okay. But, you know, it's, it's hard because I worry about these things too.

And I think part of, of the way push-off works is that they're first to, I hate to say market, they're first to market with UI frameworks and they just would have a level of adoption that's kind of unrivaled, like, they're the most popular project on, on GitHub, like, the terms of stars. Like, and I understand that. And part of me understands that that's because UI is a huge problem that people are really concerned with solving. Um, and so that's kind of gives me ample, you know, uh, fodder for wanting to grow up to make you into a really, you know, wonderful alternative for people who, um, and by the way, I don't know how I mentioned this the entire time, so make you, uh, so make you it was all flex box.

So if you're like, you're tired of bootstrap with its old, you know, floats for grids. It's a flex box grid. It's flex box components. Um, it's based on EM, like, very modern new things, um, which I think people were making websites for, you know, are you 10 and up and, you know, sort of modern browsers are really excited about using.

I'm the note of bootstrap and I guess, you know, it's the same idea, I guess, where you think about an ecosystem where there's some need and there's so many fractures. So bootstrap foundation and, you know, all the other ones that sort of fall in line there, you know, I'm kind of curious to your motivations of why, um, and you said this in the pre-call, you know, working in a vacuum. Why you continue to be, um, why you've chosen the right, you've gone versus folding your, your brain space and all the space into one of these other projects and just kind of going off the stars just simply for the numbers sake, you know, 18,000-ish, um, 18, half-thousand for semantic UI. And then whenever you go to something like bootstrap, you've got 2,000, 83,000 and they've got like, you know, way more followers than the change log, I think we'll ever have 346,000, you know, almost half of me and followers on Twitter, you know, so curiosity to why, why, uh, why you go this route versus folding some of your knowledge base into that, since you compare yourself to bootstrap when you kind of like, I just have an anecdote actually to explain.

Um, I was, I read the news every once in a while, and I'm not wonderful with it, but I was, I saw that North Korea announced that they had a cure for, uh, most diseases, they had a cure for cancer, they had a cure for, um, you know, balding, uh, all this stuff, I forget the name of the medicine, but I went to the website that was in the press release from North Korea, and it's like, this is a BBC article, and it's like, this miracle product. And I'm like, I'm looking at the source code, I'm like, holy crap, this is bootstrap, North Korea uses bootstrap. And I had this like, moment where I'm like, this is, this is in a nutshell, it's like there's just entropy in the world, like there's, there's things that just exist because the world is chaotic and just, you know, it's like, you can't really change it. And I feel like there's better things and I want to like, take the things which I think in my life, you know, or the ideas that I think are better and just really try to, you know, uh, advocate for them and support them and push them.

And for me, it's, I think there's a, I've been talking about a much in this episode, but for me, I think there's a fundamental issue with programming, which is today. I think that we're all creating programming languages that look like, um, uh, what programming is look like in the 1950s and 60s, which I think of things in terms of, of like picking a cake. Like, here's a sequence of things I need to do for a computer to understand. And we're, we're missing out on this entire, uh, different way of seeing language, which is, you know, how we construct meaning on a day to day, which is natural language, uh, systems of, of, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, It's a fight, uh, um, uh, uh, fairness analysis in particular, um, um, running with, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, programming languages that, uh, uh, was in, uh, uh, uh, uh, so who the, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, of faster decisions, and get more work done with group chat, video chat, and file sharing.

HipChat is a great solution for distributed teams by letting you take the office with you no matter where you go. iPhone, Android, Mac OS, it's all there. HipChat is easy to use and gets everyone working in real time. And right now, HipChat is offering listeners the changelog 90 days of HipChat Plus, totally free.

Get premium features like unlimited file storage, unlimited message history, and guaranteed support totally for free for 90 days. Visit hipchat.com slash changelog, again that's hipchat.com slash changelog, get your team started using HipChat Plus today, go and check them out. All right, we are back with Jack Luke, it's ready to wrap up here, but first we have to ask our awesome closing questions that we asked at the end of each show. First one for you is, what is a call to arms for semantic UI?

If you have the ear of the open source community, what are you asking of them in regards to your project? Are you passionate about UI and do you want to work on an open standard for people who work with UI frameworks? Come join us. We're not a new framework, we're not an old framework, we're the upcoming framework, so somewhere in between.

This is really terrible. I want to acknowledge you the bigger about the heroes. That's right. Let's just jam that one into the ground.

Yeah. I like it. I think it's pretty good. I like it.

I like it. I like it. It's kind of a shame that you invite, you know, you did the party call out before the sponsor break because here would be a personal arms. Sure.

In addition, go to the party July 14th. You'll have a blast. Throw it in there for you. Absolutely.

Anyone take the next one? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So are we going to ask about the hero? What is the next question? Have we determined what it's going to be? I don't know.

You got me all mixed up here. Just one more question. I would think that what's on the horizon, this is a question from a different show that we don't ask too often on this show. We got one other question.

I'll ask you two. But what's on the horizon for Cementic UI? You just went to 2.0. You're about to have this party next Tuesday if you're listening to this in the real time.

In fact, it's actually you know a couple of two things from now because we're recording this on July 6th. So it's a week in a day away. So what's on the horizon? What's something that no one knows about only you, Jack, that you know where Cementic is going, Cementic UI is going.

Pay the picture for us. Sure. technical sophistication. You have to be able to get into the build tools and open up files.

Aspiration has always been and should be achieved in the next version, which is going on to website, being able to customize and save your UI and then having the cloud, sync it between projects, preview it with all of the different variations and styles. And then every time you do other semantic UI, you have your UI guide that is built with it. I think a lot of companies are Yeah, it's like, there's like dedicated projects just for that. Yeah.

Michael, is it everyone can have their own Google.com slash material, but with their own style? That's really interesting. So going back to the levels of inheritance with classes and or the classes, but the different that we're all talking into it, you would have, you know, the pattern level, you would have the user level, you would have like semantic UI level, they'd all play into this style guy that someone would actually get built on the fly for them with no extra effort. Yeah, completely.

Very interesting. So if you change some variables, maybe choose a preset or two and then generate some sort of UI guide for your company, which that could be used, you know, with micro sites, with new employees, like as a brand guide, that's the sort of goal. That's so helpful for bringing on new people to front ends because I mean, it's even it's helpful on both sides of front end, bringing on new team members, but also for developers who are building what the front enders have defined as blessed, you know, because you get the buying, you don't want to change and not the developers have a changing it, but they want to just be able to implement front end as best as they can, you know, and not have to like trip over wires, whatever. And if you could provide that guide reform, then that's that's perfect.

Yeah. And none of that BTM dash primary is literally the like red button. And for, I know for me, talking to back end developers, the good thing that really works with spam QI for people is like, it just clicks, like they just look and they're like, my God, I can read this, like a sentence. And like it's not, like there's no actual, you know, learning required, like it's basically the language I use to, you know, describe websites in my friends.

So that's what I'm hoping for people is that they start seeing websites not having to use a separate arbitrary language to decide about developers. And it just sort of use, you know, a more objective, reasonable language. Awesome. That sounds awesome.

So next question for you and the last question is, we know you've been a little bit heads down. You said you were in a vacuum a little bit working on it. I'm sure you've picked up a little bit because you knew about react and you know about some other things. So what's on your open source radar?

If you had a free weekend and you weren't working on semantic UI, you want to hack on something, what's caught your eye? What's interesting to you? I'm, I'm interested in all the react frameworks that aren't react. Like the idea of virtual dom dipping has this like, magicness to it that I think react solved in a very particular way.

I actually don't have the name of any frameworks at hand right now, but there's a lot of people working in the space. And I'm more excited about not necessarily like what react feature is, but what virtual dom feature is, like what that means is a concept and how it fits into the browser. But I mean, in terms of, if I had a free weekend, what I'd be doing, I'd be embarrassingly getting back on my meteor jobs because right now it's like my most popular integration, but I am really a layman who comes to understand the pipeline. So yeah, that's what I'd be doing on a weekend.

While you mentioned virtual dom dipping, I went ahead and pulled that into the Google and the Google said that there is a repo on GitHub called virtual dom. It's by Matt Esch and it's got over 4,000 stars. So it's something that's coming. If you haven't heard that, maybe I need a place to start.

It's a JavaScript dom model supporting element creation, diff computation, and patch operations for efficient, re-rendering. And it's got quite the support level. It's all green from what I can tell based on this image here, Android Firefox Chrome, IE, iPad, iPhone, Opera, and Safari. So that's pretty exhausting in terms of support.

IE 6 is gray. Of course, sure is. That is the gray one. But hey, that's a good place to start though.

So yeah, once it was that free weekend, come on. Oh man, at the end of the runway. You have to have to play it and then we'll. So before we tell off the show then, let's plug some ways that those who've listened to the show have some interest in UI.

Maybe they can contribute. Maybe they can't contribute code. Maybe they can help with Doc. Maybe they can do anything they can't do anything to deliver besides donate their finances.

That's something that we should do. What's the best way to support financially your endeavors? And if there's someone out there that is a VC or is someone who would support this financially on a bigger scale, what's the best way for those types of people to get in touch and get involved? Yeah, so I'll start off on the microphone and go to the macro.

But basically, you're not a developer and you're just interested in some of these ideas. We have a big localization team like 800 people, 30 languages. But even with that many people, many languages are still less than 50% complete. So if you just go to the repo, semantic org that slash semantic UI, there's a link to join our translation community.

And that would sort of help, you know, make some UI available abroad. One of the things that I'm really actually frustrated with that I really need help with. So there's no SaaS port yet. So in the read me, actually, I have a link to the required pull request.

There's one pull request that's required for SaaS to work with semantic UI. It's allowing variables inside of app import statements. So the theme works off of dynamic import statements. If you like SaaS, it's pull request 739.

It's in the read me. Please help us make SaaS support dynamic imports. Another wonderful way to contribute our Angular bindings are still coming together if you're into Angular. There's a link in the repo.

And then lastly, as you said, if you're a vc or if you're an angel investor, there's a reach out to me directly jacketsemitic-ui.com. There's also a tiny microsite investor.semitic-ui.com that just sort of gives an overview of the project and sort of its future. Can you repeat that last URL again? Yeah, sure.

So the email is jacketsemiticui and then the URL is investor.semitic-ui.com. So it's not the main off of your main. Yeah, it's not mobile friendly. So go try that.

But it was a weekend project a couple months ago. Gotcha. What about Flatters? We mentioned that a bit earlier in the show.

Is that a common way? Is that V-way? There's a Paypal donate link in the Flatter of sma.semit.ui.com. I feel it's a little bit easier to deal with than Flatter, which is working off the URL, I think.

Okay. Gotcha. And so when you go to that, you do have the option to make it a monthly donation. You're not putting a dollar amount in there, so it could be a bug, it could be $0.50, it could be $5, it could be whatever the generous folks out there decide to put in that donation amount box.

Is that correct? Yeah, completely. And, you know, as I was wondering this one time, I would just love to have other developers help. So if you're more financially interested, I would love to be able to have more, as you say, run away for this.

But also, if you're an developer, please help us with our integrations and I'll switch. And something else I want to point out too here at the end is you guys use Gitter. So Gitter.im slash semantic-org. There's also a link in the main websites, Flitter, which we'll also put in the show notes.

But that seems a good way if you just want to hop in and see how to jack in the rest of the community, then you can easily hop in and just say hello and just sort of step in and just kind of get to know people first before you commit to anything financially or even your actual works. You can sort of get a heartbeat of the community by stepping in and just saying hello. Yes. Wonderful plug.

And also, you know, I love Gitter, by the way, I want to plug them because they're amazing. And what they've done, you know, I just like have like closed chat rooms and then all of a sudden Gitter came along. It's like, my God, people can organize around it and source much easier. Thank you guys for doing it.

There's definitely some interesting things happening there because you can see like how, you know, for example, your user has labeled something or some other user avalanche one, not sure who that is, opened issue 2530 at certain times. So you can sort of not only catch up with people, but also see the activity of the project, which is pretty neat for that. And I'm sure anybody else I'll listen to this is playing with Gitter, but I have it much yet. I've only only been a slot guy.

So this is pretty interesting to see. Yeah, I love Gitter. Yeah. If you want to keep track of it on this project, like the first thing you should do is open it's Gitter, everything's in one view.

Cool. All right. Well, Jack, hey, thank you so much for coming back. I know it's been a year and a half and we said 1.0, but we got you 2.0.

Nonetheless, great show today. Hopefully, your runway is long to keep stretching out, Jared's analogy. I hope your band becomes American Idol or something like that. Maybe get on the voice.

That's a bad joke, Jared. Why do you want to make that joke, man? Oh, man, you wouldn't bail me out earlier, so I'm not bailing you out. All right.

Well, to tell you this, I do want to plug some things. We have some awesome sponsors to make this show possible, but we are going to be at GopherCon. As a matter of fact, if you're listening to this, we're at GopherCon right now. And if you're listening to this, you're probably at GopherCon.

Well, maybe you're not at GopherCon, but if you are listening to this and you're at GopherCon, come and say hi if you haven't already yet. We definitely love hanging out with all the gophers there in Denver, the Mile High City, as they call it. And Jared, how excited are you about the temperature there, man? I guess you're not that excited because you don't live in Texas, but geez.

What's going to be? 60s, 70s? It's like 90s, okay? Right now, outside it's 91 degrees.

That's not cool. What's cool is 70 degrees. That's cool. I'm pulling a jack here, okay?

In this case, it's a life, not a girl, and we can't quite move, so but we have discussed that Denver is the city. If we moved to any of the state than Texas, but it's Texas forever. But if we didn't move, it would probably be Colorado and I could put Denver. Omaha, did you say Jack?

Oh, I'm sorry, I caught him. Oh, okay, I got you. Jared's from Omaha. The brass guy.

I gave him all that. I'm sure that's pretty cool. Anyway, so thanks to our sponsors. Thanks to Jack.

Thanks to all the listeners for listening to this awesome show. And Jack, we hope you're one way as long my friend, and thank you so much for coming on this show. Let's say goodbye. See ya.

Thanks guys. See ya.