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Do I win and somebody wants to run against me? I call my attorney general. I say listen, indict him. The Republican Party is at a crossroads.
Will we be the party of conservatism or will we follow the siren song of populism unmoored to conservative principles? Will the GOP back down Trump's return to power or find a new path forward? I'll talk to Republican Senator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana, one of Republicans who voted convict Donald Trump, plus backing Biden. My wide ranging interview with California's Democratic Governor Gavin Newsom.
Why are you thinking 24% of Americans want to see Biden right now? To me, the polls do nothing until we get out there and make our case. His thoughts on his party, the 2024 election and his own presidential ambitions. I think we need to move past this notion that he's not going to run.
President Biden is going to run. Time to move on. Let's go. And gerontocracy.
As questions grow about their fitness for office, America's aging leaders refuse to exit the stage. I'm going to finish my term as leader and I'm going to finish my senator. I made my decision in favor of many. Why are Washington's octogenarians ignoring the call from voters who believe they are too old to serve?
Joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News senior political editor Mark Murray, Amy Walter, editor chief of the Cook Club Report, Democratic pollster Cornell Belchert, and Daniel Pleckham of the American Enterprise. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press from NBC News in Washington, the longest running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
Good Sunday morning. As you may have heard, after nine years and more than 430 broadcasts, today is my final Sunday in the moderator chair. To say that this has been the honor and privilege of my lifetime is an understatement. This is simply the pinnacle of political journalism and something my younger self never imagined.
No matter how much of a grind the current political climate is wearing me down on Any given day, I still always have a have had a pinch me, I can't believe it feeling every time I hear my name introduced as the moderator of the longest running show in history of television. In fact, I used to joke my goal is not to be the last moderator of the longest running show in American history. And I've achieved that goal and then some. I look forward to passing the baton in about 57 minutes.
But in the meantime, we put together a terrific program with a focus, or at least we're going to try to win the future of both local parties. And the guests we have today, California Governor Gavin, Louisiana Senator Bill Cassidy, are two I specifically wanted from my last show because I think these two elected officials have a healthy respect for you, the viewers and voters. They aren't afraid of answering any question on any platform, on any network, by any person. They accept the premise of a healthy democracy, which is that elected officials take a stand and then come on shows where they get questioned for their rationales and defend it.
I'm skeptic by nature, which also makes me inquisitive by nature. And it's in that spirit that I think the press is the standard bear when it comes to educating viewers and asking the relevant questions that you want to ask. So as I prepare to sign off, it's interesting that both parties find themselves at crossroads. Many leaders in both parties desperately want to start looking towards the future.
But as you know, both parties are stuck in the present and the voters are exhausted by it. For the Republicans, the issue is Trump and Trumpism. Does it belong in the past? Well, an event on Friday night in South Dakota where he was endorsed by Governor Christino Trump made it clear he does not intend to leave it there.
If I win and somebody wants to run against me, I call my attorney general. I say, listen, indict him. Well, he hasn't done anything wrong that we know. I don't know.
Indict him on income tax evasion. You'll figure it out. The Republicans in the Senate and the Republicans in the House cannot let this go on. For the Democrats, the issue, of course, is Biden's age.
And the CNN poll This week, nearly seven and 10 Democrats said the party should nominate, quote, a different candidate than Joe Biden. And it was the biggest concern among 49% of all Democrats. The biggest concern was Biden's age. Overall, just 28% of Americans say Biden inspires confidence.
That's down 24 points from two years ago when he was just four months into his presidency. This week The Biden campaign released an ad highlighting his surprise visits to Ukraine in February. A not so subtle argument that he is physically up to the shots. A nearly 40 hour journey in and out of Ukraine.
President Biden left Washington D.C. at 4am on Sunday. He landed in eastern Poland and it took a nine and a half hour train to keep in the middle of a war zone. Joe Biden showed the world what America is made of.
That's the quiet strength of a true leader. Well, joining me now is Republican Senator Bill. Cassie Louisian. Senator Cassidy, thank you, thank you for the honor being on your show.
Well, I appreciate it. I'm gonna start actually with some of the news of the week, even on Friday with the announcement by former she's a secret reelection and she's in her 80s. I'm gonna start with a quote you gave a couple years ago on this issue. Axios.
Here's the exchange. The speaker of the house is 81. Wisdom comes with age, but the science is also clear that we aren't who we were, that we do lose things with age as a medical profession. Is that something we should be thinking about?
Of course. At some point and statistically it's in the 80s, you begin a more rapid decline. It's usually noticeable. So anybody in a position of responsibility who may potentially be on that slope, that is a concern.
And I'm saying this is a doctrine. I also want to clarify. You make clear you're not judging any specific person. You were making a generalization.
What's interesting though, this is before we were debating, before we were debating Joe Biden and all this. That's so hopeful for you. Absolutely. By the way, I think Mish McConnell's handled it perfectly.
His doctor is releasing not just the test, but the results of the test. And with that, there's a transparency that allows people to move beyond the number, how old is the person and to what is actually the kind of science, if you will, the medical science of how to evaluate. And I think that should be the standard that folks are held to. And I think he's responding.
You feel like you've got enough information from Senator McConnell? You do. I mean, you feel like you're getting an honest assessment here? I do.
Okay. The doctor's not lying. He's saying these are the tests that we've done and this is the results we have. By the way, I also have the advantage of seeing not just a clip of him during 20 seconds, but him before and him after.
And very quite clearly, Senator Rand Paul's questioning, exact questioning the Doctor's diagnosis? Well, you know, I always say that I'm a gastroenterologist. He's an ophthalmologist. We're not the internist who's doing the physical exam guiding.
And so you have to accept the limitations of training. What do you think? How do you think we should address this? The voters clearly have said one thing, and you have this.
I mean, look, I get it. It's always hard to let go at the very end. Trust me, I'm aware of this myself. But what do you think is the driver here?
Shouldn't there be transparency? Shouldn't President Biden, for example, release a full kind of neurological evaluation of his cognitive ability and whomever else you pick, the person that you've had do what Mitch just did, there is total transparency. And so if somebody running for that kind of high, although it's full transparency, fair to let her from a document? We don't know.
We just know what this one doctor. Well, at some point you have to say, okay, wait a second. You say, yeah, EG and mri, this and that and that of this, and they're all normal. That's pretty good.
Now, you may decide that the doctor's lying, Right. But at some point, you have to have faith in somebody, and I think somebody who's out of politics, being honest, giving you results of the test, that's a good start. It's one thing that voters should demand this. It's just something that should be in the Constitution.
Well, I don't know about the Constitution, but I think it should be certainly a House rule. Well, we have House rules that get violated all the time. I get that. I would be okay with that.
I think if you want to be the President of the United States or senator or House member, then there is a responsibility over and above that of just offering yourself. It has to be that you can show that you have clarity. Now, we can define what that means. Wouldn't we actually say, show your tax returns and show your medical records?
Is that the way you think it would be standardized, both of those things? Actually, I think that would be reasonable, too, because if the voters want to make a decision, we need to give her as much information as we possibly can. All right, let's talk about the other craziness that this month may bring us. It seems that Speaker McCarthy is essentially trying to use dangle impeachment to stop a shutdown.
I feel like you guys in the Senate Republic going, what are you guys thinking? What is your reaction to the strategy? You know, you're Guessing what's in his mind. I will not, I will not go there.
Fair enough. He's got a difficult, a difficult role to play, and I accept that, too. Now, if you treat each of those separately, would there be a reasonable thing that maybe Joe Biden was involved or at least knew of Hunter trading upon the family name for personal enrichment? That is something that the American people should know about.
Is that right? Or that's simply something. The overset in the area. I'm not an attorney.
I'm not going to go there. In fact, and I don't know the results of Congressman Commerce, which I think he's doing the service to the country, a good service. I've not seen the documents that he wants, and I don't think he's seen them yet. So if you treat that separately, is there something where Hunter was trading upon his father's name as father's enabling.
That is something to know. On the other hand, do we need to pass a funding bill? Absolutely. So hopefully they, too, can be considered separately out of.
No. Ken's strategy to go back on the imprint thing. What you just described is, you know, Michael Kinsley once said in Washington, it's not what's, it's not what's illegal, it's what's legal. That is, sometimes this stuff's perfectly legal.
Well, I'm told that there's something about foreign agent rule where somebody who is a, who's registered as a foreign agent is not being totally transparent in terms of how they're using this relationship. I'm also told it's difficult to enforce. Again, I'm not an attorney, but there's something about both the spirit and the letter of the law that I think American people should know. We think we have some sort of ethics code for relativism.
We think about every time other people say, what about Jerry Kushner? I want to say, yes, I agree with that. On the other hand, you can't deny somebody, a, a right to earn a living. To steal a phrase from another, they're not just a potted plant.
My wife, for example, doesn't make any money what she's doing, but she's got a career independently of me. Do we want to kind of stuff that out? And she's an incredibly capable person. It is, it is something that many professional couples run into, particularly in this town.
Let's talk about the future of the party. You have been adamant for last year's years. When you asked the Trump question, you're like, he's not going to be the nominee. He's not going to be the nominee.
Can you feel that comfortable declaring that now? Well, I'll say that I've not been quite well, Adam, recently. Okay, so he might be the nominee. And I think Mike Pence is trying to draw the contrast.
Is there a populist future to our country, to our party, to the Republican Party, or is there non populist? Populism has a role, but I think now, President, the populism has come to the point where if you look at a poll of the American people, most don't like it. You come from a state where populism led corruption. That's true in its history.
I think if you long, populism goes to corruption fast. But think about the purpose of populism. When the elites come up with a policy set which is separate and different from that which the people actually feel needs meets their needs, that has to be addressed. And so there is a role for that sensitivity to what the people want.
I'm totally in favor of that. What I don't like is when you tell people just what they want to hear, even if it's not true. You know, I've been very focused on Social Security. We've got two candidates who are telling the American people that which they wish to hear, not that which is true.
Because of that, Social Security, if it goes insolvent, as it's predicted to, will result in a 24% cut in benefits for those receiving. So for Canada to tell the American people there's no problem, that's populism going to rise. In February of 2021, you decided that Donald Trump was unfit to ever hold federal office again. Your vote for convict said that as much.
You've answered this question very carefully in the past, which you said you plan to support a Republican if he is the nominee, can you vote for him? I know, I know. You are invited. Can you vote for Trump?
You know, we're keeping our streak live. Every time we met, you ask me about this. Well, it's. I don't know.
Why is it an easy answer? Well, because I'm a full Republican. Yes, I am. You might have to write it in.
I might have to write it in. What about the snow labels you've been showing up at their events? You were even said that if, you know, people have pointed out you were once a Democrat. So in some ways you could some perhaps be somebody they would look to the bridges of their eye.
Is that something that would appeal to you? Depending upon who the candidates were, we're looking at Biden Trump and is that something appealing? If they came and spoke to me, I would certainly speak to them back. Sounds like.
Are you already speaking to them? I'm not. You're not. But it is something, to be honest.
Yes. Put it this way, 70% of the American people want something different. Plausibly we could have a setting where someone has been convicted and someone else shows signs of mental decline. So significant 70% of the American people are already thinking needs to hold.
He is not being transparent like some are in terms of reviewing the test. There is an actual need to know what's going on and we're not being told with this should there be another option for the American people? And I think plausibly there should be. Senator Bill Castig lived up to exactly how I built it, which is you're never afraid to answer question even if you don't like it.
I think I'm not sharing your perspective. Appreciate it. When we come back, California government. He rules out his own presidential 2024 and he offers his vision for how Biden can look.
I'm serious when I say this. A little less time on his age and whether or not he's gonna run a little more time on the damn record. Welcome back. As Democrats worry about the political strength of President Biden, speculation has been bubbling up that another Democrat should run instead.
Well, I traveled to Sacramento earlier this week to talk to one of those Democrats in lady. The California governor Gav Newsom is clearly positioning himself to run for president. It just may be in 2028 rather than in 2024. I begin by asking Governor Newsom at the California governor mentioned, by the way, his thoughts about Biden and the future of Democratic Party.
Governor, thanks for doing this. Good to be back. Good to be with you. I appreciate it.
Let me start with about a year ago where right after the Dobbs decision, you very publicly, and I'll quote you like where's my party? Where's the Democratic Party? Where's your leader? You have that same sort of lack of focus and leadership that you sense of nationally.
The opposite. I think we're on message and we're getting back on the offense. We're on our feet. I think demonstrably that proved itself not just a Syrian.
The basis will happen in the midterms. We outperformed, I think our own quiet expectations. Certainly punditry that was out there at the time. No, I think the party's in a much better place than it was back then.
But I, you know, I stand by what I said. A year and a half ago, out of stress and frustration, I expressed not only that point of view, I try to do something about it through the iteration of doing ads in other states and making a case. You think things are better in your opinion, because the party did something better or simply the public is just pushing back on this abortion decision and that is moving the abortion decision, that has been galvanized in that respect, and it's demonstrably so. You saw the Highland what just happened.
You're seeing it play out in large and small venues, including Wisconsin, Supreme Court race, et cetera. So look, it's obviously playing an outsized world, but I think we're getting our feet under us. I think focus on democracy and freedom, taking back the mantra of freedom, not submitting to the other side that they own patriotism. The president's developing his message and strategy and we have opportunity in the next few months.
I mean, do you feel like you know what the second term agenda is? I don't know about the second term agenda because we're still regaling in the extraordinary success of the last few years of which we now get to apply the principles in advance. A lot of what has been asserted that you make real the commitments we've made through these landmark legislative packages. But beyond that, I think the fundamental messaging has improved the organized framework that the ads that they put out, the last five ads, I think have been spot on.
And now we've got to go out and campaign. I think you can see that in the next few months. Why do you think only 24% of Americans want to see Biden Reagan? To me, the polls mean nothing until we get out there and we make our case.
We gotta make our case, we gotta focus on the issues. And then obviously framework of contracts become reality. Why perception is there. I'll leave it to more objective minds.
I don't have that point of view. I'm very inspired by the masterclass of the last two and a half years. And I mean, I mean masterclass in terms of delivering results and the results are demonstrable. Question you're asking is the challenging one, isn't it?
How do we mind the gap between performance, the substance and the results and that perception before it becomes reality? Clearly it's reflected situationally in these polls. But that's the opportunity, not the burden. The opportunity of being able to run on this record, Biden record and make the case to American people over the next 18 months that you think this is all just due to age.
People just look at the age. I just Think he's not vibrant. That wasn't. That wasn't even on my mind.
I don't know. I'll leave that. I don't know what it is. All I know is we have the opportunity to sell remarkable accomplishments, and we get an opportunity to do that in a way that, frankly, we have in the past.
And we need surround stuff. We need to organize bottom up, not just to down. We can't just have the president to make that case alone. The party, the Democratic Party, goes back to your original question.
The party itself, I think, needs to be more muscular in terms of how we approach our role and responsibility and promoting that. Right. Another four years of Donald Trump will break us. I don't.
I hope we don't have to experience that. But I worry about democracy. I worry about the fetishness for autocracy that we're seeing, not just from Trump, but around the world and notably across this country. I've made the point about DeSantis.
I think he's functionally authoritarian. I'm worried more in many respects about Trumpism, which transcends well beyond his term and time and tenure. I'm sure DeSantis would be a greater threat to democracy. I leave that to more objective minds.
I'm concerned about democracy fundamentally in this. I understand you say for more objective minds, I think the vengeance in Donald Trump's heart right now is more of a threat. So another four years of that could. Yeah, it's not something I'm not going to wallow and I'm going to work hard to get President Biden reelect it and work hard to make the case for what he's done for this country.
Finally. Deadlines haven't passed. President Biden doesn't run. Why shouldn't we consider you elected?
I think the vice president is naturally one lined up, and the final deadlines are quickly coming to pass. And I think we need to move past this notion that he's not going to run. President Biden is going to run and looking forward to getting reelected. I think there's been so much wallowing in the last few months and handwriting in this respect, but we're gearing up for the campaign.
We're looking forward to it. But you hear these calls privately. What do you tell these donors who are wallowing, it's time to move on. Let's go.
I'm gonna be at the DNC next week in Chicago. Was down with the DCC two weeks ago down in San Diego. Let's go. Let's make the case.
Let's stop. I mean let's make administration. There's no plan B. No.
And perhaps there's never been more consistent words have come out of my mouth than that. But I have something that's always has hit me for a while with you in particular. Your political hero. Yeah.
Yeah. What did Bobby do? Bobby ran. Bobby ran.
He did it. Now you could argue that he waited for somebody else to prove LBJ was vulnerable before jumping in. We could debate the particulars of when if you got a bold. Sometimes you go when everybody tells you not to go.
Yeah, I'm a. I haven't plotted this out. I'm not this Machiavellian. That said, I'm all in with President Biden.
Proven that over and over and over again in private, increasingly in public when I continue to make that case. And again I want to just go through talking points. But I'm serious when I say this. A little less time on his age and whether or not he's going to run a little more time on the damn record.
Wonder why there's a gap between performance and perception. I think it's pretty obvious because we consume very consistent thoughts. What do you focus on? You find more of and right now the Democratic Party, the press and others so focused on situationally on his age should he or should he not run and not on his record.
So our job is to get out of that muck and get back on our feet making the case. Am I supposed to interpret that comment about the vice president that if for some reason the president chose not to run at this point. Let's run. It's the Biden Harris administration.
That's maybe a little old fashioned. Maybe I'm a little old fashioned about presidents and vice president. I was a lieutenant governor, so I'm a little subjective. The senior senator here has her daughter apparently a power attorney.
She as an elected official has power attorney over 4 million people's representation in Washington D.C. why should she still be serving as a senator? Well, I leave it there. I told you I'm the most subjective human being in the world on this topic.
I have no objectivity whatsoever. I've known fine science since I was a kid. I interned with her in college of a signed book from my days when she was mayor. So a family.
Yeah. So you know, I just, I'm the last person to ask. It's been sad to watch. Look, this is somebody who.
Whose obituary, you know, legacy is. I think I fear people are going to forget because of what we're watching. But I'll tell you I mean it wasn't that long ago where she would call me up, read me the riot act on issues related to force management, vegetation management, what we're doing in the Central Valley on drought and water issues again, that won the black wine movie dates. That was.
That was not too long ago. Her staff is still extraordinarily active and we wish her only the best. Her term expires. She's now running for reelection.
So you know this time next year will be in a very good. Do you feel as if the staff is fulfilling to do the duties? I don't think I know it. We're working extraordinarily closely.
You don't feel as if the state's losing out by not having more active voices? Maybe missing town halls or more act but you know, Senator PD was just in the office a few days ago. We were comparing contrast asking issues and advocacy and we're aligned with Feinstein in her office. No, I don't want to make another appointment.
I don't think the people of California want me to make another yeah, and I don't think that's. That's it. It's my job. It's my responsibility.
If we have to do it, we'll do it by your pledge. Yeah. Interim appointment. I don't want to get involved in the prisoner.
You would not appoint anybody that has filed for this. Completely unfair to the Democrats that work their tail off. That primary is just a matter of months away. I don't want to tip the balance of that.
But you're going to buy by. It would be essentially a caretaker, an African American. We hope we never have to make this decision. But I abide by what I've said very publicly on a consistent basis.
Yes. Your relationship with Donald Trump, you had one because of the unusual relationship between his son and your ex wife. Is that still a viable communication slide? No, I think it was less that and more just interpersonal relationship that came out of the time we spent together at paradise, as he referred to it or pleasure.
I think he referred to it during the fire. I find it in stark contrast that Descendants was completely AWOL from spending any time with Joe Biden which just to me is political malpractice. If a Democratic governor from the state of California can go out there to paradise and be with the president United States, that was wrong. We talk about living together, advancing together.
We have a responsibility one another be mature. By definition we worked very closely together during COVID I'm not sure whether our country can handle. Yeah, but at the end of the day. These are the cards that are dealt.
I want to do the best for the people that I represent. 40 million Americans that happen to live in California. Many support them. I'm not going to pose someone just oppose them.
I don't come into a relationship with closed fists but an open hand. I call balls and strikes and few people were more aggressive Call balls and strikes against Donald Trump. The most un Trump state in America. And I hold to that same time.
We work together in terms of emergency preparedness and response in terms of recovery. On issues related to Covid where Trump himself led a lot of the decisions his administration that you wisely and appropriately brought up. We took guidance for the federal government as it relates to that. But at the end of the day I don't like the partisanship and I thought it was demonstrably displayed by what I thought was a very weak exercise by Governor DeSantis and foreigners.
Let me close with this. Your relationship with the vice president. Guys have been in. Describe your relationship.
Yep. So I assume San Francisco politics. Politics. It's a close family.
Yep. Are you describe your relationship. We knew each other before we were both in politics. Dan got sworn in as mayor.
Walked across street. She got sworn in as district attorney. Extraordinarily close working relationship. Including your time in the Senate.
Of course. Not by definition it won't happen. But we said that a thousand times. We privately continue to maintain a very good relationship interpersonal.
Just how you doing? Checking in. It's been a challenging few years with COVID and we've had the opportunity to sit down, have lunch together in the White House. We spend time talking about importance.
She's not upset that you're going to debate Rhonda Santos. Maybe. Apparently someone in her office is because I read some off the record quotes. I wish I knew that was But I don't hear from her.
So. And I'm certainly not here for the White House itself. I hope we'll see. It's predetermined.
Figuring out the time and date. There was a venue issue. They wanted thousands of people and make it a performance. Wasn't interested in that.
We're pretty clear on that. And so I think we're close to. Yeah. You're still okay with that?
Well I mean it's two against one. Bring it on. There's a lot more. This interview about our news and I also talked about selling San Francisco to a national audience.
The homelessness crisis, climate change and his relationship with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Who was once quite close. And when he's learned about politics from reading the biographies of former California Governor Ronald Reagan.
You can see our full [email protected] when we come back. President Biden is facing more than just concerns about his age from voters. What is the Democratic Party's plan to address? Band welcome back, panelists.
Here, some of my favorite panelists. Samuel Walter, theater chief of Cook Public Report. I partnered for so long hair at first read and then some. NBC News scene political editor Mark Murray, Democrat poster Corno Belcher, who's given me my favorite gift in my closet which are my Jackie Robertson cufflinks and Daniel Plecka, senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.
Our daughters went to preschool together and that's how we got to know each other. So it's true. This is a reason the four of you are here together. All right, let's talk about this age elephant in the room.
We put up these the scene and pulled the head head matches here we got ones where Biden's trailing among all the non front runners. He trails Pence and Scott and Christie and Haley by the most now against the more likely nominees. Biden actually performs better here. He's tied with Desantis.
He's actually down a point Biden and up a point on Ramaswamy Cornell, you're the Democrat here. You gotta defend this. This looks bad. Why shouldn't Democrats be bored?
I've been here before, Chuck, as someone who worked for Obama, I think if you go back to August 20, 2011 headlines had Obama not only tied with a guy by the name of Rick Perry and Ron Paul, remember those? But he was actually trailing the guy by the name of Mitt Romney by several points. I think this is polling right now. Don't pay a lot of attention to polling right now.
I was actually, I think I was more, I think I'd be more worried about Mitt Romney than Trump. Why is that? Because right now Mitt Romney had higher ceiling than Donald Trump. We've seen how Donald Trump performs into elections.
Now I think right now I would argue that Trump is at his ceiling and President Biden is close to his floor. But he has a good story to tell. He has a story to tell about the economy and he has a story to tell about legislation, popular legislation. By the way, we only one campaign didn't have this kind of popular legislation to talk about.
And I don't want to dismiss it completely. I'm not throwing it out completely. He's too early. But let's just say this.
It is really hard to know. It's getting Harder and harder to use the metrics we once used as we were all coming of age to decide whether or not a candidate is vulnerable or whether candidates are able to win. Donald Trump never hit 50% job approval rating as president. 42,000 votes of winning the Electoral College in the last midterm.
40 year high inflation. Any president who's deeply underwater. And Democrats came within 6,000 votes of holding the House. So what I see is sort of what Cornell sees you with a tide race.
And this is going to be a tide race no matter who the nominee is. And it's going to be four states and a handful of votes yet go to what Bill Cassidy said, Mark. 70% of the country doesn't want this. And this is what they're going to get.
We know the expression politics that force a vacuum. Something or something or someone's going to try to fill the vacuum. Yeah. So we're trying to have that frame of, well, this is going to play out exactly like 2020 if you have a Joe Biden versus Donald Trump matchup.
People who said, you know, I voted in 2016, I'm gonna vote at all. I'm gonna vote a third party into me. That is the really big wild card in this race. But also with two things about Joe Biden, the worries of Democrats can be true in one.
Yes, we have a long ways to go, more than a year. Yes, Joe Biden has cleared Democratic field. People like Gavin Newsom, all the other people behind him. The Democratic Party is more unified than it was this point in 2015 and even 2019.
But the other part is that, you know, this campaign in 2024, either Donald Trump or anyone else will be a different campaign for Joe Biden to run the coronavirus and Covid probably is, at least we think so. Joe Biden will no longer be the challenger. He is the incumbent. And so this will be a kind of a more vigorous campaign that he has to embark on.
And I think that's what's really kind of concerning the worry. Sandy, I'm curious if you answer the same thing I did here. We had Gavin Newsom and had Bill Cassini thing. Both parties, they want to start having a real debate about something and you can feel it.
And here we are. And Cassidy essentially offered himself up as an alternative. I obviously coaxed him a little bit. But the point is, is that this is what I think is going to define this race for the next nine months.
This sort of weird uncertainty about what are we going to do about an unpopular pairing of candidates. Well, we still got a lot of shoes to drop. Mark, you described right. What's going to happen when Joe Biden really has to campaign?
He can't hide in his basement anymore. What's going to happen when Donald Trump isn't out on Super Tuesday because, you know, he's on trial? And all of those factors are right now just sort of forward looking? We're focused on, we don't know how the country can act.
But isn't it bizarre that everybody's like, oh my God, I hate this so much. But really stupidly, I love it because they're voting for these people. We don't have some. We don't have an alternative to Biden and we don't really have a serious alternative to Trump.
He's killing everybody else. So somebody's making these decisions. I'm gonna go back in here on this point because here's the X factor because it can become 2016 again. Because you have so many people who say, I'm protest my vote.
I'm the lesser of two evils, by the way. And that's how Donald Trump wins. He wins by subtraction. So, so when you look inside the polling, all the votes who were once voting for got him at 51%.
They're now looking at their parties. United focus groups work with third party voters and they don't know who their third party candidates are, but they're this grunt about politics. Right. They're gonna go shopping.
That doesn't mean they don't end up going into saying smaller. All right, my choice is small and large. Is there a medium? Is there anything else?
Okay, fine. Did I just hear you say that you think that Donald Trump could win the 2024 election against Joe Biden if 2016 happens again? I mean, it'll get a 5% third party number in those states that you're talking about. Look at what happened in Wisconsin in 2016.
All those Obama voters voted third party. And it victory for him that Mark would be all this math. I mean, literally the only difference between Biden and Clinton was Gary Johnson. Yeah.
And Chuck, you know, again, one of the challenges for Joe Biden in 2024 will be keeping that entire Democratic coalition together. And it wasn't just independents and it just wasn't young people and voters of color. It was also disrespected Republicans and people who voted for Gary Johnson or Jill Stein in 2016. And so the challenge that he has to do is replicate all of that by having a story this week.
The coalition, the Biden coalition, particularly African American men and Hispanic men. They're not reliable Democrats as much. Listen, we'd be remiss. I won't talk about that.
But we'd be remiss as a panel if we say thank you, if we interrupt this program. Thank you. This been a great conversation for all almost decades. But thank you for giving me the opportunity to part of this conversation.
Hey, it's been, it's been an honor not just to get to know all these wonderful people, but to be part of this community that is around you and NBC News. It really has. I can't believe I get to hang out with people I know. Well, we've grown up together in politics.
I'm so very proud of you. Been shouting each other forever. We have. And you know what I'm the most proud of is you have kept your sense of optimism even though this is a tough job.
I know. But this is a tough job and you have kept you're critical, but you're not cynical and I appreciate that. That's been a great ride, a lot of great stories to cover, a lot of ups and downs and so great ride to be with you. I'm gonna see you at the Miami Texas National Talk.
Hey, when we come back, speak it at college. All politics is local until it is what college football's decision to expand beyond its traditional regions says about where we are heading as a country. Data Download is next. Welcome back.
Data Download time. Regional trends and viewpoints are increasingly being replaced by national ones in the worlds of business, politics and even college football. Ad revenues and audience models are dramatically shifting the world of college athletics and it's destroying what were once regional conferences. And in many ways it's sort of a metaphor for how we've handled our politics today.
Here's a Big Ten in 1984 really nicely tightly construction constructed agricultural Midwestern states and the industrial Midwest. Here's the dictionary. Today it goes coast to coast, not quite the Midwest anymore. Here's the sec, very concentrated here.
All Southern states except for one quarter state there are consecutive and now they have gone west just like America in the 19th century. How about our friends at the Big Eight? Yes, Big 12 ups the Big Eight. It was also concentrated more in the Plains in the Midwest.
What is it now? Well, it's more of a Southwestern Conference, if you will, that also stretches to Florida, West Virginia and Ohio, naturally. And then let's look at the acc. As you can see here, truly was a Mid Atlantic and Southeast Conference, Tobacco road, basketball, you name it.
Well, what is it today? It is now the All Coast Conference with the additions of Stanford and Cal. Again coast to coast Texas, every major four largest states all represented in the acc. And then of course there's the Pacwell.
Welcome to East Coast Bias right here. In 1984, it was the Western Coast Conference. And now as we know, it has literally disappeared. And that's what's happened to our regional differences.
All politics are national. All college football is national. And you know what? It makes you wonder if we lost something, decisions should be made locally and in community sometimes makes for better politics.
Maybe it makes the better college conferences to you. When we come back, the new moderator, Meet the Press joins me and she gets ready for her new Sunday critique. Welcome back. The last nine years is moderator of the longest running show on television is in the honor of my professional life.
And as I prepare to pass the baton to the next custodian, it is a privilege to pass it to someone who needs no introduction. So is the United States spying on its European allies? Great to watch you. I won 2008.
How do you win this time? Are you giving Russian President Vladimir Putin the upper hand heading into your talks? Did you direct Mike Flynn to discuss sanctions with the Russian ambassador prior to your inauguration? This abuse of power in the future, Mr.
President, it is too vain to separate children from their families. I'm Kristen Welker of NBC News and I welcome you to the final 2020 presidential debate. Vice President Biden, there have been questions about the work your son has done in China and for Ukrainian energy company when you were vice president. In retrospect, was anything about those relationships inappropriate or unethical?
Nothing was unethical, Mr. President. Why haven't you been able to get them the help they need? 30 seconds here.
Because Nancy Pelosi doesn't want to approve it. I do. You're the president. Don't you need to recalibrate to some extent to try to work across the aisle with the Republican White House?
Is that your signature on the check though? Let me see. It could be. It doesn't matter whether it's my signature or not.
You know how many checks I've written to Nancy? Yes, that's my check. Does the president need to take the reins? And I'll be at the White House tomorrow, so give me enough to take when I ask him.
Well, Kristen Walker joins me now in her last appearance as a guest. I need to press. You ready? I am ready, Chuck.
And I just want to say I am also so thankful and grateful to you for this moment for entrusting Me with this monumental, important role. I take this responsibility so seriously. I'm ready because you have helped me get ready. Chuck, you are someone who invests in people that you care about, and you have invested in me, and I'm just so eternally grateful for that.
I've said before, I think it bears repeating. You brought me to D.C. you taught me just about everything I know about politics, and I say that a lot, but just to get full sense of what I actually mean by that. One of the things that sticks in my mind is you were at a news conference in 2013.
Former President Obama, Prime Minister Netanyahu, we were covering the White House at the same time. This was in Jerusalem. You asked more questions than any other reporter. And it was a message to me that you have to have the courage, you have to have the confidence to ask the tough questions and ask as many questions as need to be.
It's not a popularity contest. And I remember thinking to myself in that moment, you have to push yourself harder because you have to ask tougher questions. You have to make sure you're getting the follows. The best part about all of this is that you're not going anywhere.
You're going to be on speed dial for me. You push yourself hard, you work really hard to prepare you out, prepare. So many people tell me this. You know, I have my own thing I want to bring.
I want to bring more data to what we did and all this stuff. What's something you want to bring that you think will be unique to your tenure as well? I want to approach this as a reporter. That's who I am.
That's who I've always been. I've covered three administrations now. The Obama administration, the Trump administration, the Biden administration. Travel all over the world with all of these presidents.
And I really want to bring that to the show every Sunday to make sure that. That we are giving our viewers the information that they need. And now my beat, by the way, is all of Washington, the campaign trail, and frankly, the world. And I want to be asking those tough questions.
I want to be making you proud. I want to be building the legacy of this show. What are your thoughts about breaking the polarization, breaking this habit where they're just. They don't want to answer any questions to people that they think are going to ask friendly questions?
Well, this is something you and I have talked about a lot when you and I said this desk together, anchoring on election nights. We are living in a world in which we are deeply divided as a country. And so My thoughts are I need to be keeping my finger on the pulse of what matters to voters. I'm going to be out on the trail.
I'm going to be bringing their questions here, the moderators to ask. And you've always said this, the role of the moderator is to bring Washington's the rest of America and vice versa. It's a huge responsibility. It's one that I take very seriously.
There's a lot of great imitators to what we do, but there's only one me to press now. Here's my baton and part of this, I want to get rid of this. So. But it's sort of my old reliable.
I do not. I have had alarms not go off with this modern thing. Mr. Jobs and Mr.
Cook. This thing with its battery backup, I highly recommend. You know, it does a funny thing. You plug it into a wall, it keeps power and when power goes out, it has a battery.
I love it. It has never failed me. My real trick is to set it 40 minutes early. You will never oversleep.
But here's my other promise to you. You will never sleep on Saturday. That is for sure. This is timeless.
You are timeless. Jock show is the show. Thank you so much. I'm really honored.
And again, you left very big shoes to fill and I just want to make you proud. They are. They are. It is again, there's a reason we've all used the word custodian all the previous moder.
It is again. You're the moderator of a longest running show on television. Nobody wants. You don't want to be the last moderator and hand it over.
When you hand it over to, I'm sure it'll be in a better place than you have it today. I hope so. I'll work hard to do that. I promise you that every Sunday.
Kristen, thank you. Thanks, Chuck. On my first day on the job of Eat the Press, I was handed an audience survey of Sunday show viewers. And the number one reason folks said they tuned in was not because the person was behind the chair or the guest.
It was simply they get educated. So for nearly a decade, I had the honor of helping to explain America Washington and Washington America, as Kristen just quoted me about. And it's that education piece that I'm hanging my hat on the rest of my professional life. One thing we will lament, we all lament lately, is the lack of knowledge and nuance in our politics and citizenship.
That's a vacuum I hope to continue to fill, whether or not continue to news coverage here at NBC or via other venues like docuseries, docky dramas focused on bridging our divides, piercing these political bubbles. And I'll continue, of course, be a big part of NBC's political coverage because as Tom Brokaw said and he says, look, some networks do some things well, but nobody does politics like NBC. And he was referring back all the way to David Brinkley. And that is sort of the tradition.
I've always sent for Brinkley to Russert. And that's the stuff I want to carry on. That's the stuff Kristen is going to carry on. I also could not have done this job for the last nine years without the team that you don't see on television.
The producers, control room, crew, editors and artists make the show look like an incredible production. Every week I get up early, make it up earlier. Television is a team sport and I'm proud to be a member of this team and stay a member of this team, even athlete, sectator, a cheerleader and an advisor. So that's all for today.
Thanks for watching and for so many years of loyalty to me and to this show. I'm happy to say my colleague Christian Bloker is gonna because doesn't matter who sits in this chair. If it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press. It's here.