Should We Resort to Using Force?

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled. Today I'm going to be doing something a little different thanks to a couple who graciously agreed to consult with me here. One of them reached out via email with concerns about her four year old's unwillingness to cooperate with the steps leading up to bedtime and also during morning transitions.

The parents wondered if there was a point when following through with limits around bath time. Toothbrushing, dressing should mean using force and as a couple they have different views about this issue. They tried sticker charts, taking away story time if she doesn't get ready in time, working with her to help develop a bedtime routine, but none of those strategies have worked out so they asked if I could share any thoughts that I have. As is often the case when I read their note, I had way more questions than I did answers.

So so I very much appreciate them being willing to share with us here. Hello and thank you so much for being here and being willing to share with me and listeners about your issues. I imagine there's other parents going through similar things, so I really appreciate you being willing to be on with me. So I would like to start with your note that you sent me a couple of weeks ago.

And here it is. Thank you so much for all your lessons on parenting and developing respectful connections with my two daughters while holding boundaries and ensuring that my needs matter too. My current challenge is with my almost 4 year old who often engages in testing behavior at bedtime. She stalls, refuses or delays putting on her pajamas, brushing her teeth, getting in bed and staying in bed for a few weeks.

We used a sticker chart and that helped motivate and then that behavior stuck for a while when we discontinued the chart, but now we are back to the same testing behavior. This behavior also happens when getting ready for preschool in the morning. So my question to you is how to enforce boundaries that seem like they would require physical intervention within the respectful parenting framework? When she won't put on her pajamas, do we hold her body down to do so?

If she will not go into the bathtub, do we pick her up and put her in, then keep putting her back in each time she climbs out? Do we brush her teeth for her while she tries to keep her mouth shut? This has been a major area of conflict with my husband who believes that these actions are part of following through after providing clear limits and acknowledging feelings. While I see them as overly controlling to to me, it is really hard not to see it as too physical and triggers my own history of being Held down by my older brother when I didn't do what he wanted me to do.

I don't want to be so physical, putting on her pajamas while my daughter fights it with her body and screams. But other options we have tried, like taking away story time if she doesn't get ready in time, using sticker charts, working with her to help develop up that time routine, haven't worked. Any thoughts you have would be so helpful. Thank you for your help.

Okay, so as I mentioned in the note that I sent back to you, one of the reasons I wanted you to come on and talk to me here is that I have a lot of questions for you about what's going on here. So if you don't mind, I'd like to start with that. Why do you think she's struggling this way? What do you think could be going on there that makes her want to stall and resist and refuse?

Well, one piece that we noticed just this last week is that we've moved up bedtime a bit and realizing that some of it had to do with her just being overtired. And that's helped some. It had gotten to the point where she was kicking and spitting when we were trying to help her get to bed. And that's not typical behavior for her.

And so recognizing that she, I mean, she's often not going to be tired at the end of the evening, but she was really overtired and that was making it even more challenging. And so that's one thought that comes to mind. Another is that she has an older sister who maybe she wants to be playing with. And sometimes the older sister gets to stay up a little later.

And I think another part of it is just the testing part. She can see that I'm tentative, perhaps in terms of, let's say, it's time to put on pajamas and she just won't answer and she'll walk away. And I kind of don't know what to do. So I know reading and listening to your podcast that sometimes that confidence is needed that can help them see that I'm her strong leader.

And so perhaps that also plays a role. So those are some of the thoughts that I've had. I don't know if you have any others. Well, you nailed the two big ones, which are that she's probably been overtired and moving up the bedtime last week, I think, has made a big difference.

I think a lot of it is sibling related. Dealing with her big sister is a big part of it. I think that her older sister, of course, Is further along developmentally and more capable and more verbal. Even though our younger daughter is quite verbal and communicative, she's not as communicative as our older daughter.

So I think it often feels hard for her to get attention, get a word in edgewise. And she's often using behaviors that are, you know, maybe more. More intense to try to get some of the attention that she's looking for. And then I think part of it is the boundaries that you were just talking about.

I think sometimes the boundaries aren't totally clear to her. One thing that I'll add on to that is that you and I just do things a little bit differently as parents. Like when my back was hurting and it was really hard for me to reach to the far side of the bathtub to do her bath time. That's one place where I put in a boundary that I don't think you have, which is that I can't.

I can't wash you if you're on the far side of the bathtub. I need to be, like, near side of the bathtub. And so she'd learned that that's a boundary where she can try to test it and see what happens with me. So that's one place where to finish a bath with her.

I would pick her up and take her out of the bathroom. But for you, that's not something you like doing, and it's not a boundary that you have in your mind. So there's a difference between the two of us there. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah, that definitely makes sense. I think that we do have differences in some of the boundaries, and so sometimes that can be. I think she learns some of them really well.

And then other times, I can see that might be confusing to her to know where the boundary is between the two of us. Well, I'm hearing a lot of insightfulness here on both of your parts. So that definitely works in your favor as parents. And in figuring this out, figuring out what's going on and what we can do to help.

I love that you both nailed the tiredness thing. I mean, that is. It's so all consuming for young children, and they aren't able to see it coming in the way that we might as adults, where we're getting tired. And a lot of children have a temperament where they go right into this hyperactive, really unreasonable, dysregulated place.

So that's great that you're both noticing that element that you can help her there by starting earlier. I also wonder, how old is the older one? Your older child, she's six. They're two and a half years apart.

And do they have time together at the end of the day? Yeah, they do have time together at the end of the day. They often play together really nicely in the evenings for half an hour or an hour before dinner, after dinner, before nap time, before bedtime. Wonderful.

And they also share a room. They have bunk beds, so they kind of are in the same space. I'd like to. They also do have conflict between each other, and they work on resolving that.

There's lots of the older sister, you know, trying to keep things away from the younger sister, and the younger sister trying to destroy the things that the older sister is working on. I mean, something along those lines probably happens every day, but they often are able to resolve it on their own. And then other times, if they're not, they're often able to resolve it with a tiny bit of observation from one of us. Well, yes, that, I would say, is par for the course, that they have conflicts.

And that's actually the benefit of having a sibling, is that you learn how to work through conflicts with other children and with peers and in all relationships in your life. And it's an incredible gift that they have this kind of relationship. It sounds. It sounds ideal.

Why is it that you believe, though, that this is getting away with bedtime? Because it sounds like, well, your younger one has to go into the bunk bed before her sister dies and be alone in there, and then her sister comes in later after she's asleep. Is that how it works? There was a period where we separated them because the younger daughter would just kind of scream, not letting the older one sleep.

So we tried this for, like, a year. We would just bring our older daughter into our room to sleep until the younger one stops screaming, and then we carry her back into the other room when our younger daughter was asleep. It was just a long time of really wanting them to share a room. That wasn't working in the sense that I think our younger daughter was getting some attention.

I don't know. I'm guessing that this attention rate is doing a lot of screaming and yelling, not letting the older daughter sleep. But that sort of got fixed in the last few months. So we had them in the same room going down at the same time.

But half the nights, there's a lot of this testing behavior. And then in the last week, really, after I sent the message, we were like, let's put it down earlier. And that seemed to have helped some in terms of the intensity of the behavior. So now she has her own bedtime.

That's earlier. And she's going to bed without the sister there, Correct? Right, yeah. And that's working better.

That's interesting. So, yeah, the children can sort of play off each other, which does make it hard for them to let go. So what all this want at the end of the day when we're going to sleep is to be able to kind of let go, let go of the excitement in life, let go of the traumas that might be happening, let go of how we might be winding our parents up. She sounds like a very intense person, this younger one.

I love that kind of child. But it does have challenges. It can be so much harder for them to let go anyway. So it sounds like you've gotten over one hurdle by figuring this out, that she got too tired, which makes everything much harder for her and harder for you.

The other part here that I wanted to talk about is since you sort of know why she's struggling and stalling and resisting. So we want to be able to do what you've done by acknowledging the overtiredness, which is kind of fixing this from the inside out, by understanding what elements are making it not work, what she's expressing here that she might need, and then from there, partnering with her. Because even sticker charts, while totally harmless, they're kind of pitting you against her. They're kind of.

That's how children feel, that here you get to do this fun thing if you comply with what we want, whether that's a sticker chart or storytime. It makes children feel a distance between them and us. That can kind of make these matters worse. It just looks and feels a lot different to a child than when we're partnering with her.

And another part of this, I don't know if it's the way that you expressed it in the letter, but it sounds like, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that you are kind of asking her to do these things in terms of getting ready for bed or in the morning, and she's not doing them. Is that sort of the way it's going? Yes, I would say that's correct. Yeah.

It's time to get dressed, and she might get dressed. So what she's showing is that this is a time when she needs more of a helping her through these transitions. You know, especially the night transitions are the hardest one of all, because when we're tired. But all transitions tend to be challenging.

And getting up in the morning and getting out the door, I mean, I Could totally relate to the stalling and the procrastinating and all this stuff because. Because I do that myself. At this age, though, children often need that parent helping them, like guiding them through the channel. That feeling that we're totally willing to do that and actually we want to do that because this is the way that we get to really separate from you when you go to school in a way that feels like there's a lot of relationship that's a part of it.

And it feels better to us, too, than getting a ballot with her in the morning or at night before she goes to bed. Certainly it can feel better to us to hold on to that. I worked with her and I helped her from the beginning. And yes, she's four years old and can do a lot of this herself, but there's often periods that children go through with transitions where it's like they revert back to being a one and a half year old where they really need us to walk them through.

And she sounds like she's either going through that or she's that kind of person right now. Doesn't mean you're gonna forever until she's a teenager. But for now, I would consider both these periods, the morning and the night, as this is time that you're gonna be connected with her, that you're going to do caregiving. It's like baby caregiving with her to help her get from point A to point B again, it's that feeling of distance that she has where we're over here and she's over there.

I want you to do this and you're not doing it. But what she's feeling is there's a part of me that's still in independent mode. Just because you tell me to do something, I can't do it sometimes and just be on my side and, like, help me through. She can't obviously say that, but that's often what children are needing that we are like, okay, it's bedtime.

And you said something about the. You developed a routine. So here's a routine that she hopefully had input on. Like, what do you need at bedtime?

What do you need from me? How do you want this to go? And then knowing that, no, we're not gonna be able to make a deal that she's always gonna be able to shake on and follow through with. She still needs the backup of, we're there, we're taking you through.

And that's how I would approach it so that right from the beginning, you're okay. Now it's Time to get your clothes on. Here we go. And now we're gonna do this, and then we're gonna do that.

And I'm not saying that it'll all be perfect and smooth then, but that's the way I would look at this for yourself. And you could take turns or who's ever available to give her that 100% nurturing through that time. Okay, so now she's saying, no, I don't wanna do that. The thing is, children often don't, or they do it a lot less when.

When we're in there with this positive, helpful, we're doing this together. Here we go, my love vibe. Instead of the it's time for you to do this attitude. So sometimes that will actually just override.

They might still go, no, I don't want to. I don't want to. But they give in much easier because they're getting that nurturing that they're unconsciously asking for. So I think that is great advice.

And just speaking for myself. I've heard you give advice on other podcasts and we've been doing that, and I think it has really helped. It has been great for me, at least, to switch my mindset from, you know, I need my daughter to do these things to, oh, wow, my daughter really needs my help right now. And like I remember you saying a podcast about hard pickups from preschool or daycare about kids running away.

Just don't let your kid run away from you. You know, get there and give them a hug and then stay by their side for the whole time. And your kid can't run away. And then it's not.

There's no conflict there anymore. Or with these sorts of routines to switch from saying, like, wow, I just need my daughter to do her bedtime routine to like, oh, my daughter is really tired and she's only three, so she doesn't know how to do this on her own. She needs my help. And I think that has made a big difference even doing that.

You know, when we go into it and we let her know that the transition is coming, you know, it's going to be bedtime in 10 minutes. It's going to be five minutes. It's going to bedtime in one more minute. Take one more moment to do one more thing.

Then when it's bedtime, I say, okay, it's time to head up for bedtime. Do you want to walk or do you want me to carry you? I will carry her. I'll hold her hand.

And I've had a lot of Success doing that even so, you know, she might start screaming that she can't walk. And I'll say, oh, yeah, you are too tired to walk. I understand. That makes sense.

I'll carry you. I'm happy to carry you. Sometimes that works. Or sometimes she screams, no, I want mama to carry me.

I mean, sometimes we look at each other and maybe mama is free and can pick her up and carry her. But I think this is where I start wondering about boundaries. Because if I've told her it's time to go up for bedtime, I'm happy to carry you, I'm here, is that a place where I ought to be saying, you know, you really had these perfectly good options in front of you, and you said no to walking. And I'm here and I'm, you know, taking the lead in this bedtime, so I'm just gonna pick you up.

Even though mama's on the other side of the house and she's fully capable of taking you upstairs right now, I'm the one who's doing it. But then that will often become a point of conflict between my daughter and me, where she'll just be screaming for the entire bedtime that she wants mama to do whatever. Does that make sense? It does, it does.

And it's great to hear these details of what's going on. So the other thing I would say is knowing that transitions are very challenging at a time of dysregulation, especially the nighttime one for young children. She's still totally in that category at age four. Four could be a challenging age.

Six does get a lot easier by then. But four is still ripe for falling apart when it's time to do these things. So knowing that going in, I would give her the most minimal choices, if any. And I wouldn't give her that kind of countdown, because putting my toddler hat on or my 4 year old hat on, I'm getting wound up by that.

One more minute. Here we go. You know, for a child with this kind of sensitivity, it can be unraveling to feel that warning vibe. I know you don't mean it that way.

You mean it very lovingly, but it can come off as, all right, here we go. And like, I have a feeling there might trouble here. Like, that's the way you said it in your voice, saying it to me. Maybe you're not saying that way to her, but that trepidation feeling.

Instead, I'd say, oh, you know what? In a few minutes, it's gonna be time to go upstairs, and I can't wait to do a bedtime with you. That's the only warning part. And saying it very positively like that.

And then going up to her, okay, come on, let's go. Taking her hand, putting her arm around her. You see her starting to stall, you know what? I'm gonna pick up my little baby bear or whatever, and I'm so glad I can still do this.

And now, like, she's screaming, mommy. Oh, no, you want Mommy? And maybe she can't hear you from then out. If she goes there, which, again, there's so much more chance of it when we're leaving open those.

Those choices and all those things that she can't handle. It's like, I can't handle this, I can't handle that. I can't handle that. It's like one on top of the other.

And now I'm. I'm done. She's gone off into that dysregulation place. And so if she gets like that anyway, even if you do kind of come in early with this, I call it the confident momentum of not giving her those choices and all those pauses and all those places of making decisions that are really, really hard for most young children or all of us when we're in tense periods in our life.

You know, young children still are in their development. There's so much going on. So even with all that, if she's now screaming for mommy, I would see it as, you know what she's venting her day right now. I would perceive it that way.

And I'm going to be the hero that doesn't get flustered by that, doesn't try to call in mommy. I would not do that. Even if Mom's right there. I would not try to fix it that way, because it will help her if she can just let go and be gone at that point.

So I would just take her up if she's screaming, you know, cover your ears or, you know, if she's trying to hurt you or something, say, you know what? I can't. Or don't even say it. Just put her down and just somehow get her along that way.

When you talk about force, you know, you could call it force, but it's not the kind that you two are both worried about where you have to hold her down. And it's that papa bear, mama bear momentum, that I guess could be called force, but it's really more when you couldn't do it yourself. I'm going to carry you through attitude and not all these words to her. I wouldn't Try to talk to her about it, you know, especially if she's at that point.

And then with details like the bath. I mean, the bath is optional, really. Bathing is a nice luxury. And maybe you can if she's coming from me at least.

But, you know, for her, it's like you could wash her. You could washcloth her, act a little if she's been playing in mud or something like that, or wash her hands, you know, And I would do that with confident momentum. Like, you know, we're putting these hands in here and we got to do this and, oh, you don't want to, and you want mommy. And this is just not going your way.

You know, if you're going to say anything, just be understanding that she's falling apart and coming from that place. But a bath should really be a voluntary thing because we want to present it positively. And, you know, like I said, I think it is positive. And it's not make or break that if she doesn't have a bath unless she's been working in a construction site or something, that there's going to be something wrong with that.

It's just that we want this routine to go, you know, and she also, maybe she said she wanted to do that. And then you might say, you know, it looks like it's going to be too hard for you to be in the bath, so we're going to skip it this time. So not mad at her, not what you said, not going up against her in that way, but really on her side as somebody that you see as looks like a basket case at this point. You know, this is especially true.

She was overtired. And then brushing the teeth, you do the best you can. The pajamas, I mean, she has to sleep without pajamas. It's not the end of the world.

But I would go. But I think you'll find it's easier. I mean, you say you're already finding it easier. She's not retired.

But I think you'll find it easier when you approach it as, okay, I gotta get you dressed. That's my job, and I gotta do this. And we're not annoyed with her because we know she's not in her best mind right now. And she just needs help.

She just needs us to get her from point A to point B as best we can. You know, it's not purposeful behavior that she's doing. And then I think you'll find there's less of it. One day you're negotiating with suppliers, the next you're installing a shell in the Back room.

Running a business means moving in many directions all the time. TD's new small business banking accounts are built for how your business moves. It's how we're making banking more human. I wanted to talk to your partner here about her feeling tentative because that is as you both realize that that is also getting in the way and understandably, you know, I'm so sorry you had that experience as a child.

A lot of parents that I work with have trouble with being physical in the way that I was just describing. Having that confidence to start early with momentum, to see your job as heroic. And there are physical aspects of that. If we're tentative, then we're leaving open all those spaces.

We're going to keep giving her those kinds of choices. Oh, you don't want me. Okay, Daddy. And okay, are you ready for me to do this?

Instead of you know what, I'm going to do this. I know I'm doing the right thing. I know I'm caring for you, that you're showing me you need my help and I'm happy to do it. It's not the same as going up against you.

I'm overriding some of the difficulty that you're having is really the way it is. Yeah, that's helpful I think. I think it's what you described as putting pajamas on the bathtub, those sorts of things being voluntary. I think sort of trying to better understand that piece because I think there are times where we can come in with that more positive attitude and catching it earlier and it works.

And other times where she just like hides under the bed or hides behind furniture. I think she can kind of feel her power in terms of the pajamas getting the pajamas on. And so I guess I wonder if in that situation when she's. I'm using the word fighting but that's not what I mean.

Where she's just really having a hard time or testing in those moments. Would that make sense to let that go or would you say that's important to get her pajamas on? That's interesting. I don't disagree with you saying fighting.

I mean that's really. But what you said is so key about the power. So yes, she's unconsciously trying to understand also besides feeling non of herself and kind of a mess, she's trying to understand and reckon with in a way the power that this has with her parents that when she hides now you're frustrated or however you're being her mad or trying to get her out of there. So what we want to do with that is not give it power.

And that's what I meant about cutting our losses sometimes and letting go certain things. I mean, it's not like I can give you a set plan. It's a feeling that you have with her of she's trying to get you wound up by something. Again, I believe on a conscious level, you're not going to do it.

You're not going to take the bait because you see beyond going under the bed. It's so silly. So am I going to get annoyed with that if I have this agenda? Like, I've got to do this and she's got to have the dramas and she's got to have the bath, and you know, that's going to set me up to be annoyed when it's not going my way.

But if I'm just like, you know, I'm gonna do the best I can to help my little girl, and I'm not afraid of touching her and picking her up and doing all those things, because it is loving. Especially if I'm acknowledging, you know, she's screaming for mommy and daddy sticking her. And if you're like, you want your mom. You don't want me knowing.

It's not personal, then it's so. It's so compassionate. It's so loving. There's nothing even remotely abusive or wrong there for her.

She's feeling that hero come in and take care of her. But, yeah, when she's doing that kind of silly stuff, I would say maybe. Okay, I'm gonna go file my nails. And let me know when you're ready for the book, because I'm happy to read it for a few more minutes.

You know, like, very positive. Very. You're not gonna get me with this stuff, you know, and that will give you confidence when you realize you're the one that actually has all the power, not her. She doesn't want to have the power to annoy you with these antics.

And she doesn't have to if you don't give it to her. That feels really powerful. I feel like I could just feel myself like I have to get these nine things done to get her in bed. I think that's where she gets the power.

You're absolutely right that I am like, okay, now how do I convince her to put on her pajamas? And now how do I convince her to brush her teeth? And she doesn't have to make her do it. So then I'm trying all the tricks, right?

I can't read a book or you're not going to get to the Book, you're not going to get diagnosis. All the things. I'm pulling them out because she has to get the pajamas on. But if she doesn't get the pajamas on, then, ugh, like, I have to brush her teeth.

Okay. I mean, hopefully she doesn't want to brush her teeth every night, but I don't think it does. The other day that came up, and we're like, oh, can you have to brush your teeth to go to school? I want to.

I don't have cavities. And so she still did. Right. It's like, pow.

I think that's just really powerful to take the air out of it all by recognizing none of it has to get done. Right. And I love that you have that experience with. She wanted to brush her teeth.

Oh. What does that tell you? I mean, everything right there, right? This is about your dynamic with her, that's all.

And so what she's feeling when you're. You're putting this really intense agenda on yourself. I mean, it's what you're doing to yourself. You're kind of, you know, making it impossible for you to be a confident parent.

Right there. No. Own your power. And you don't have to tell her and talk her into things, say, okay, here's your clothes.

I'm gonna put this on. Oh, you really can't do it. Don't do it. Then maybe there's ways that you can practice with her during times when she's not having difficulty like this, where you come in very positively with physical touch.

I mean, I'm sure you do have this. Like, you just put your arm around her right away. You're not tentative about touching that you have to ask her permission for everything or whatever. I mean, I know that that's out there.

You're not one of these people that anybody should worry about making a child do things and breaking their boundaries physically, you know, you're the other direction. But children read that as, she can't be the leader. I don't want to be the leader, but I'm kind of stuck here trying to get her to be the leader. It's not a comfortable feeling for her.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And so, yeah, there's definitely a place for picking her up and helping her and coming to it from that perspective as her leader and helping her through things and letting go when it starts to feel like a power struggle. That feeling that I have in my body is a cue that, huh, maybe this thing isn't necessary. She doesn't have to eat a Banana before she gets to school and like let that go.

She's like, doesn't want any breakfast, doesn't want to eat breakfast and let go of all those things. And you can take her in the car, you know, and just be. Instead of disappointment in her, you know, say, you know what, we're in the car. Tell me to change your mind if you don't mind reading that in your car.

But if you do, don't do it. But you're not willing to engage in a power struggle. You're just not. Not because you're afraid of it, but you're just too big for it.

You're way too big for it, both of you. You're not gonna stick to that with a four year old. And that's what will give her heart so much relief that she's not in charge of these things. She doesn't have to make all these decisions.

That her little antics don't throw you off your game. You two. That's the main thing that she's looking for here, I think. Yeah.

I feel like I have a new. A new approach that's gonna really help. Help the evenings feel. I think you're right.

There's like a sense that here comes the bedtime routine. How is it gonna go tonight? So hopefully I can shift that mindset because I'm sure she feels that too. Yeah.

And if you're feeling that, this girl's feeling it for sure. And it's like seeping out of you in the future of trepidation. And it's a really typical thing. You're not unusual that we go into these things where our child.

Maybe we've had difficulty before. And now. All right, five more minutes. Your bedtime.

Okay. It's time. Like we're almost asking for trouble, right? Yeah.

Even though of course we don't really want it, but that's how it can feel. I think it's also wonderful that you also have the connection now that you've made between your childhood experience and the tentativeness that you feel. Keep exploring that maybe writing about it from a place of that feeling of how it felt. So you're not writing a story about what happened from this kind of objective, distant place.

But you sit down with that feeling of how that. You know how that felt when your brother was doing that. You just write from that. Ah, I'm scared.

You know, whatever comes from that, that can be a helpful way that I love to Liz with Corey, by the way, I have had on my show. Do you go to therapy or anything? Like that I have at times. I'm not in therapy right this minute, though.

Yeah. Well, to just keep in mind that that may need more healing for you to be able to put it in its place and not let it interfere with this important role that you're taking on. I think the challenge is actually sometimes more just like when my husband has to, you know, help her put her clothes on. I kind of trust myself in those moments, but I think the conflict comes when I'm watching him put her pajamas on.

That's more of when the conflict arises within me, is kind of watching that and probably putting a lens on it. That's more related to what happened to me when I was a kid. Right. He's just trying to get pajamas on.

And in my mind, I often intervene in those moments. I'm not just doing my. I intervene and I tell him to stop, because that's what comes up for me. And so I think figuring out how to allow him to parent in those moments, I mean, I certainly think it impacts me.

I think in terms of how it impacts our parenting overall, it's more in just kind of minor meeting in those moments when he's having to be the confident leader and take those steps. That ends up being a challenge for us. Well, I would just keep your sense of humor about it, if you can. What both of you are doing here, exploring this is the way that I would recommend, because it's like, let's say you're building a wooden box and you have this lid, and the lid's not going on.

We wouldn't try to force it, force it, force it on. Right. We would look and see what's going on here that's making this not go on. So that's what we want to do with children, even though obviously they're not wooden boxes.

Much more complex than that. But that's the way we want to be as parents. We want to go from the inside out, helping our child with the issue that they're having. And in this case, I think overtiredness, way too much power getting people wound up, and maybe too much of a strict agenda on things that really we don't have the power to force that easily.

Like to make someone sit in a bath and enjoy it, or to make someone get their clothes on or brush their teeth when they're holding their mouth shut. So where we don't have power, we really want to lean into Mama, Papa bear, loving, loving, loving relationship, and way above her struggles and tests and all the things that happen when she's not at her best self. That's super helpful. Thank you so much.

Feel like, kind of relieved that I have a plan that feels a lot more doable. Good. Before. Yeah, good.

And then if she starts screaming for one of you and the other one's having their time with don't. Don't other person come bail her out. Because then that can be that accommodating thing of, I really can't do this and you really do need daddy or you really do need mommy right now. It's better then to just kind of face the music and carry on knowing that you're being a hero.

Can I ask a couple follow up questions? Yes. Since we've got you on the line and normally I just have to listen to your podcast and then guess how it applies to our particular circumstance. Of course.

So, yeah, I hear what you're saying about if she is screaming at my wife, that she actually wants me to do bedtime. It happens in both directions that it's not her decision to make. And we're both capable parents and either one of us can do a beanie back. Yes to that.

What about this morning when she was screaming at me that I was sitting in her seat at breakfast and she wanted me to move? I mean, am I acquiescing to, like, some unreasonable demand? I mean, I can go sit somewhere else. Is that me being flexible or am I being too stubborn if I say, like, no, I was sitting here already.

I'm just gonna sit here knowing that she is gonna scream a lot right next to me as I'm sitting there eating breakfast if I don't get up and move. I mean, she ended up screaming a lot about other nonsense this morning. There you go. That's your answer.

She needed to scream about something. Yeah. I'm really glad you brought this up because that's a sign that there are some places where you're kind of letting her have power that she cannot be comfortable with, and then it's bleeding over into these difficult situations like that time as well. Because when there are things going on in one area, it always makes everything harder, especially the transitional times, which are already the hardest.

So it's a unconscious power play on her part. Yeah. Of course you can get up for what? Of course you could get her a different color cup that's right there.

But you already brought that one with the water in it. The way that you respond matters no matter what you do. So you could sit there still and say, no, I'm going to sit here. You can't tell me what to do.

Or you could be like, well that's really interesting you're telling me the SCC arrangements. I'm pretty comfortable here. This is where I'm going to stay with that comfortable, confident attitude instead of responding as if she's making a serious request and then she will scream anyway. And I love that you notice that in the way I'm sorry you notice that.

But it's hard not to notice that I'm sorry that happened. I guess I should say. Yeah, but that tells you right there she was going to find something to scream about. And by me doing this totally reasonable thing, which is the day where I'm sitting and not jumping up for the four year old pointing their finger at me, she gets a chance to.

And she also gets this incredible message that her parents are just not going to fall for that stuff. We're just not going to take the bait. And she doesn't have to worry that we're going to take the bait because underneath what she seems like she wants is her wanting us not to do that. Her wanting us to not give her all that power, that she can be the boss of all these adults because she's only four and she knows that's trouble.

She's the boss who's going to take care of her. Can I ask another follow up though? Yeah, I hope it's along the same lines. It's along the same lines.

I know I've heard you give people advice that you know when your kid is screaming, if they're actually screaming in a way that is bothering you, you can tell them that. So part of what I was thinking at breakfast this morning is that of course I can stay my seat, but I know she's gonna start screaming. And then if she starts screaming at me, I can tolerate that for like a minute or two. But then I'm not gonna like it anymore.

I'm gonna wanna leave and I'll tell her like, oh wow, that noise you're making, this, that's really loud. It's actually bothering me so I'm gonna go somewhere else. And then it's like she's gotten the thing that she wanted anyway. So she does have a lot of power, you know, she can scream and I can't stop her from screaming.

And I can, you know, white knuckle it and tolerate it for as long as I can, but I'm still a limited human being. I can only take so much of my kids screaming in my ear before I want to go sit in the choir room to eat my Meal. You know what I mean? Yeah.

So putting your hand over your ear doesn't help enough, it sounds like. I guess I could do that in between bites. Yeah. So as much as possible, I want to try to do the most minimal thing because that shows that we're not bothered.

And ideally, we see this as a kind of ridiculous thing that's going on here and that we're not going to play into it. But if that's really hurting your ears and you can't take it anymore, I would say, you know what? I feel like I'm going to go over here. I feel like going over here and then, no, she hasn't got what she wants there.

Or she has, actually, but it's not what we think she wants. So we think she wants us to get off that chair. But what she wants is to know her leaders are unruffled. She wants to know her leaders can totally handle anything she throws at them.

So you not sitting there is not her getting what she wants, but your attitude about eventually moving or not moving is going to give her what she wants, which is an answer. You know what? You can try all these things and you're not going to blow me off this chair. I may choose to get up, but you don't have the power to force me.

It's that little subtle adjustment of you owning your power and seeing the ridiculousness of this and the need that's really behind it, which is, dad, don't play into this with me. Don't let me be this kind of boss child instead of the little tiny girl that I am. So it's the way that you do it. Does that make sense?

That does make sense. Makes a lot of sense. And I think that's really helpful. Thank you.

So making it your idea. Oh, you know what? I'm going to go over here, I'm going to bring this in the kitchen because I want some things to do or whatever. I mean, I guess maybe it's acting a little bit, but have there ever been other people in your life, like when you're a kid or something, that just were trying so hard to annoy you and bug you and get a rise out of you, and you finally realized, you know, if I just kind of not ignore them, but ignore the bothersomeness of this, they stop.

So ignoring them is different because that's actually a kind of aggressive response of, I'm just gonna ignore you for doing that. This is, oh, gosh, here she goes. And. Ah.

Oh, well, I'm just not gonna give this thing power it's so silly. I'm gonna get up because I want to. Sounds really helpful. And I hear what you're saying about it kind of being acting, but also just saying the line of dialogue out loud kind of forces you to along with the scene.

So that is good. Yeah. And it's acting yourself into believing it. Or it's even better when you just really believe it.

When you really see this as not this tremendously annoying child at this moment, but this silly, tiny person that is not really asking for you to get off the chair, but asking for you to not be wound up by her. Yeah. I think that's really helpful advice. I've been using your advice along those lines, you know, during.

During bedtimes when she's just totally overwhelmed, overtired, completely falling apart. Saying out loud, oh, wow, you're having a really hard time. I love you. I'm here to help you.

You know, that has really changed my attitude about what's going on in those moments. And I think sometimes she's like so deep into her tantrum that I don't know if she's hearing it all or she's hearing me. I don't know if she's actively processing it at all, but it still helps me. Good.

And you know, my wife can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I've seen a change in her over time as I've shifted that attitude and the words that I'm saying to her in those moments. Yeah. Another one you could say to yourself is, this too shall pass. It's all good.

My son always says it's all good to everything, but she's venting away. It's all good. I don't think we realized how much of her power we were letting her take. I think this is just really useful for just kind of getting a bigger picture.

Good. Outside of my own brain of what's actually going on than kind of how I was seeing it. So super helpful. Thanks again.

It's my pleasure. And that's the key, that zooming out, having somebody else to talk to about it so you can see the bigger picture. And then when you step away from her, you can see how tiny this person is. Do you ever go out on the street and think, how did she get so small?

We thought she was huge in our minds. And you two are doing an incredible job. Kudos to you. All of this self reflection and self awareness that you have is really good.

Continue to inform your relationships with these two people that you're raising. Lucky that we ran into your materials. You really are. I don't even know, sometimes think like, what would I be doing if I hadn't run into your stuff online?

Who knows? But we are just like really grateful that you are around. And you're so good at explaining it in a way that makes it clear, understandable, and providing the language at times. Sometimes I just, I won't let you do that.

Is so helpful. Just those little things that you just have a gift of putting things succinctly in helpful ways. So thanks for putting that out into the world. It's my pleasure.

And thank you so much for your kindness and again for your generosity and being here and sharing with all of us. Bye bye. And thank you all so much for listening and for your kind support. We can do this.