I, V, M. Episode for the first if I going to the fact that I am doing my version of karavapse and there is a yeah so it's going to be the last time I recorded the two and a half hour time which will be and which will be like for a lot of the other of my other hosts especially our producers who have to wake up at 7 a.m. to start this nonsense on Saturday mornings and yeah so that's why so today today we are going to have an interesting topic linked to this karavapse topic called the Green Resignation but before we get into what that great resignation is let's go out the room and ask other podcast hosts what what is their most interesting resignation story so I like how you say like we have like we want to sign to have that has to have I mean your only resignation story of the most interesting one you pick your best one all right so Chuck you want to go yeah sure I mean I designed on fairly decent terms with my last company to become freelancer so I guess that's one but technically there is one company that I worked for for a very short period of time which I have even explored from my CV for purposes that shall be discussed over a beer with anyone who is interested and there I was kind of pseudo-fired so let's not get too much into detail but that was interesting and really really also the same time I mean we're leaving in many ways I remember the interesting thing about that was I was fired while I was on my notice period I've already handed in my papers so it is sort of like yeah we realized we don't need to any you can't quit me fire you yeah that's all yeah actually yeah I left only one job which is to do an MBA but to be honest those I guess like if you're not really into coding or software engineering it's it's relieving for both sides so yeah it was quite expected only so how long was your notice period it was a it was one month I guess yeah but basically it was a standard sort of MBA resolution nothing dramatic about it I guess yeah and I'm not part of the Lance Lance revolution I remember when I handed in my papers at the software engineer I mean like all the good something then boys I worked in a software company towards one point I remember when I handed in my papers I expected a whole bunch of questions from HR like why you leaving do you want to say about the question that I did not expect was how did you get to I'm most of managed planning engineers quitting to do MBA like I'm just quitting software to do me that was like the most common template of I must be one of the very few quit an MBA job engineering and that oh you're so hipster that you didn't go to software engineering you went to actual engineering engineering I remember my boss was the empty of the company and he was a very kindly person and so I was working that for about three years and so we became good sort of you know sort of an regular relationship and when I told him I said what and then I told him what I was planning to do and he asked me are you out of your mind I'm not sure but probably not so he told me and prove what I was in style in that case all the best I don't know this part of your this dark past of dark period you know he's what were you actually doing so I was working for a it was a part of the company and I was taken up fresh out of MBA I had like all MBAs really nothing to do because company are making money you just hung around in office discuss shares write the papers had tea and met solicitors once and so it was like like any other MBA not nothing no deliverables nothing and for three years it was really good fun I mean you go wherever you go you stay in like a Taj and who lauded around it it was at the end of three years I was going nuts there was literally nothing it speaks a lot about you that this is the life of disability it's you know I have to I'm cursed with sort of fidgetiness I cannot I cannot just sit idle without it most people buy a fidget spinner for that you just chose to vote and start the factor create fidget spin but I feel like we have all these questions are leading up to something so do you have news for us yes I mean yes I first first I can share my my resignation stories the two the two resignations the most recent resignations but two polar opposites my current resignation included probably the longest notice period I ever known but I don't think I think anyone has ever known of three months and the three month notice period and versus the job before that which was about eight and a half years ago which I quit I had a notice period of I had a notice period of one day so there was a real so what what happened was we had there was a huge there was a huge management change in that company and they really wanted to change change change and switch out everyone was hired by the previous management so while they were systematically firing different department they hadn't arrived at mine yet and before that I got a job at another agency which I took up and when I went to give my exhibition they were very thrilled because everyone else was firing they were even two months of salary versus for me even because I was quitting they didn't need to give me a service package at all but they were happy to give me a one day notice period I like give me a nice recommendation later also to put he quits very well he quits very well that's why that's my resignation so we get all of this again is from the from the outlook which is personally relevant and is also great at my time which we discussed on the episode today is that I have resigned my job and with the resignation I I also unlike a lot of other resignations I resigned this job with no so to speak future prospects so I am officially and for the and for the dist into the district future I am unemployed which is why now the suite is like from speaking is also not going to have sort of like a by me a coffee but yeah so on that I mean I I mean not wanting to get into the my personal reasons of resignation which to resonate with that larger topic but there is also a larger trend called the Great resignation that's going on now the data on this is sadly still quite US centric but the phenomenon is global and mainly US centric and you can't get data because the Indian government does not release data on unemployment as I wish one might have told you a few other things as well as well as well as we'll go with the resignation for now yes but the the peace statistic is that over the months of April May and June in 2021 over 11.5 billion workers in the US quit their jobs and that's like that's the among the highest resignation rates ever voted in the US labor market and so yeah I mean by these resignations happened across industry so this is happening in the front lines of workers service industries as well as when you talk about tech industries as well as communications advertising across the board these resignations were happening and so that is a certain professor Dr. Anthony C.
Flotz was a associate professor at May's Business School of Tech and AM and University who actually coined this term called the Great resignation and he pointed out that this is a trend that is obviously exacerbated and a key contributor to this is the pandemic but the reasons are multi-folded and that's how we can kind of like look into each of these reasons what and the most obvious and most basic reason why the resignation speak during this year is because over the last year I mean there's a normal I mean there's a normal turnover there's a normal church right people want to design at all points in time but because of the pandemic happening last year there was surprisingly very few people who resigned because everyone was like this pandemic is taken as by surprise and a lot of people wanted to sneak on to their jobs so but there are a lot of people had solid reasons to put their jobs and as the economy in the US started opening up specifically and even around the world where people started experiencing that okay you know it's this is I mean eventually I do want to design I can put it off for a while but I'm not going to that so the backlog of resignations first came to be so that's the first reason of this great resignation the second reason which is which is actually really important and correlated to this is that there have been supremely heightened level of levels of burnout and they also did the when they did the research they found that this burnout was actually seen lesser among Gen X and baby boomers but it was seen specifically heightened in the Gen Z and millennials so they were the guys was saying that they are experiencing heightened levels of burnout because of the process of working from remotely a lot of people not used to that also the demands of working along with all the demands of like whom that people responsibilities around the house with children, pets etc all of that stuff the third reason which and here now the first and second reason are somewhat understandable but what are the most interesting and where we can have a discussion is a third and the fourth reason the third reason was especially since April May and June in the US and as we will experience as we are going to be experiencing now in India as well is that work places started opening up and a lot of employers started calling their employees back to work and a whole bunch of employees it's it's almost like the pandemic was like it it forced people into the house and now people don't leave because they're like I have understood that there is no reason for me to turn up at my workplace anymore and so there is a whole bunch of people who firstly do want to go to go back to work altogether they want to work remotely because they are able to handle their whole life as well as their free time in a lot better in a better way remotely and the second part is that a lot of them are also continuing to have scares and fears of the pandemic which is continuing right so a lot of employers are mandating people to come back and this is the US is amusingly polarizing because there is there are people who are resigning because their offices don't have vaccine mandates and there are people who are resigning who are having vaccine mandates so there's people at both ends of the spectrum who are resigning and employers are basically damned if you do damned if you don't situation and so that's so the remote work comfort has become a major factor for a lot of people and finally which is the most interesting and varied and wide-ranging reason is what what professor Kloss called a perfect Kloss sorry my right Kloss called a pandemic epiphanes right that over the period of time people have been stuck at home and this has been a great time for people to reevaluate their lives right and reevaluate what their priorities are reevaluate what money means in their life reevaluate what a work life balance is like and a whole bunch of people are actually making different kinds of shifts some are quitting for better opportunities better pay better benefits from their workplace some are quitting because they are finding they want to switch the rears altogether some are quitting just so that they can take some time and rest and reevaluate and recover from the burden out that they support so so there are there are money also I think the emancipation from that imperative to where clothing on the lower half of your body oh absolutely yeah yeah definitely I mean the need for all these rules and regulations that are effectively carried over from the industrial like right like you have this specific number of hours you're supposed to sit in a specific place where a specific clothing and like constantly work on an assembly line effectively right all of those taboos were finally broken with the fact that you no longer need to turn up at your workplace so in that so these are the four reasons and let's let's examine these four reasons in detail and we will take a quick break and come back and have a greater discussion on the reasons as well as our opinions on what's what's causing this particular phenomenon see you on the other side you know that feeling when you finish a movie and you just need to talk about it that desperate need to discuss why Kalwuna who hates different enter IBM's brand new podcast Sinefai it's streaming and current just yapping over Hindi cinema every Friday rom-coms directly to debut skidio defining moments whatever they're vibing with they're breaking it down join the podcast on IBM pop's YouTube or any audio streaming platform caution you want to rewatch everything after listening to us come join us on Sinefai morning evening afternoon my podcast is sinef says no guys no topic and no filters say from further broger that's me Monday to Friday Sunday I'm with our kids we chat with salons you'll never meet traffic jams on streets and people from all professions everyone a I go live at the show ask me anything AMA you follow the questions I know it's better than a Mumbai reach out I even host a panel discussion called cock and bull where we dive into current affairs and wonder why anyone even cares at all and Friday releases always surprise episodes for you all so tune into sinefai says on YouTube and all our new streaming platforms welcome back and before the break speak it was talking about pandemic activities and other tales that lead us to the mass resignation which is the next geological era after the heliocentric era the great depression the great extinction and now we have the great resignation yes excellent just a safe ski I'm sure I'm not sure about the data but I read somewhere that a lot of the employees who quit are actually the ones who join new companies during the pandemic so yeah so that's true actually so there's multiple so there's a lot of people who are definitely there is the turnover and the generate of employees who joined the pandemic is a lot higher and there are multiple reasons for that I mean some of them definitely being the burnout stuff and and the burnout but mainly especially I mean I can speak off from personal experience of the communications industries that I mean advertising isn't if I can the bones of the the industry can work very well remotely like you can do all the jobs on paper but a lot of advertising happens because of like in-person conversations jams or office environment I mean advertising employees are here aren't the best paid in the world so for the amount that you get paid without any office environment and just having workfalls throughout and just being loaded with work all the time has contributed to a lot of burnout a lot of disillusionment and so there has been a large amount of churn among people who have joined during the pandemic yeah and also like ultimately you know collaboration needs right and their best establishment you're sort of getting into the company culture in a physical location as someone who joined a new job during the pandemic I know it was like really really hard to just get a feel of the culture of the new workplace right and you know sort of make friendships as it where remotely is next to impossible so you're less connected emotionally to the place so hence the legoness of the whole thing you mean more productive but like in terms of sheer like ability to form new collaborations of friendships it's very very difficult to do that remotely so to my mind it's a very different comparison frame right you were in a different sort of work environment pandemic and then you thrown into a completely new one and it's only natural that you know people feel like this is not what is signed up for and leave also yeah and also there's a there's also reasons a larger point about how it's almost like you can almost frame it as the importance of small talk like about how those four to eight is conversations that you had to call it or conversations that you had the conversation you had with the colleague over lunch and how that translates into your relationship with your colleagues as well as sometimes even work like you might be having a unrelated conversation and that sparks something and you end up elaborating on that and also coupled with that another factor which is all about how you have there is an environment of so when you're interacting online right you choose to login from 2 p.m. to 3 p.m. on a call right but at no point when you're working entirely remotely there is no situation you will end up it you will always enter every situation really and when you're always choosing all your situations the interactions you will have will be pretty much exactly as you expect them to be there are no four to it the experiences that you may have you may not end up like having a lift ride with someone who you would expect or meeting some other person over lunch or seeing something while you're out in the cafeteria between a more between how a mom is feeding her child and get an idea and thought about that so the restriction of all these like four to eight experiences has to be impacted the overall work experience yeah I feel like this is a natural extension of our hero you will know how to talk about gossip and all that this seems like the natural extension where all these feelings are actually the thing that access connective issue to some sense yeah even simple things like if you were in a meeting in a physical place and there was some IT issue which always happens you sort of bond over that IT issue and start making fun of IT right now if you face an IT issue it's on your side you are frantically trying to figure out what's wrong with your Wi-Fi connection should I go sit in a different place are people judging me because I'm not able to join or I'm not clear etc so it's turned from an area of bonding to an area of sort of yeah Chuck if you remember I do the legend I do it's not take names or departments yeah but I mean that is very true because just common gripes of some sort yeah yesterday when I was at that farewell and I saw a whole bunch of colleagues probably after your year and a half and while we were talking people are like oh okay these works about office yeah how that person laughs really loudly and then we're doing the call it was always distracting and all that stuff and how you end up meeting people and it was also a big thing like I knew a whole bunch of people because I was my first year working over here was in person I knew a lot of people who I never had to work with but he's just sit around so I knew them but now just there's another person who joined over the pandemic she didn't work with on any of the accounts that I did I didn't even know who she was because we don't know he said to even know each other and so we ended up like we take there and I was like hi I have no idea who you are and then she's like okay I don't know you etiquette might evolve around this for all you know but well let's yeah he spoke about this during the meta was discussion yeah how to engineer virtual water cooler conversations I've observed on the younger condition at least I refer what you mean by young generation I'm 37 and I guess I fall underfoot yeah my children's home early 20s and they are very very comfortable with an online existence which is completely different from their offline one and so they have you know entire conversation for example gaming they have gaming friends and they're talking with them and they're gaming that's not the other I will be able to imagine when you know when when when I was younger gaming when being on the field summit and it's no longer this the case now so maybe the human propensity or the human sort of requirement to be gossiping all the time does not require physical presence I would always imagine that we also convey a lot of things to each other by non-mobile community the way you talk the way you laugh also you it's a haha but like you know is it really a really a sardonic and really what it is so maybe maybe the human nature is able to take that transformation how much so far more easily than me matter you think another reason we get for this massive resignation is just that especially and I know this is obviously for people who are in a certain profession and have some level of religious is the opportunity to open up so much the whole I'm talking about the whole product slash you know developer full-stack developer in Bangalore situation right now just yeah people just yesterday as all this beautiful Twitter like and there is a hilarious to listen to it right now around all this one person one person said that he told his boss that new developer we interviewed doesn't want to do because of location issues but I thought he wasn't back also he says yeah but he's not just that lay out and he doesn't have to be the middle that's a real problem yeah just that we have to be able to fight it like a bomb but yeah but the thing is you're right because the phrase that he meant that he's that dr. Claude talked about which was all about pandemic epiphanies is that is the realization that you know so from my perspective one of the key and this is also linked to the freelance revolution yeah to some extent where the realization that here I am because when you're especially working from home because you're trying to chart out and map out how many hours you're spending at work versus what time you're spending but you're blocking off from here you're very you become even more aware of the number of actual hours you're actually putting on to work and that's what I realized that I'm putting close to 50-60 hours of work a week and I'm getting paid X amount of money versus if I was to work freelance I maybe truly able to switch to a four or even a three-day work week and I actually have that much more time to pursue my own interests also understand what it is at the other aspect is because world the bigger factor which I feel which has made a big difference is having cut out an entire life outside you actually realize this I from your rent what is the minimum amount you need to actually live yeah right because you're no longer doing your commute what you realize what I've also realized is there is this whole ecosystem of spending money that work itself creates right the clothes that you buy the commute that you take the food that you end up eating outside because of work and stuff like that the kinds of stuff that you buy for the convenience for your work and stuff like that and the worst would be having to go out and spend on a dinner or drinks with colleagues who you don't want to do exactly and the number of like that's what the number of like end of day work breaks that you end up having with your colleagues so you end up spending a large portion of the money that you're making on supporting your work so so to work happening interesting yeah so so if you look at it that way people have gotten a lot of realization about not just the specifics of the money that is required to survive but also the meaning of why they're doing this job so if a job actually doesn't satisfy you or challenge you or satisfy you on an emotional mental level is this really worth it can I survive without it and maybe I get valued somewhere else and these are the questions that have got really have have come out a big way for yeah and I and I obviously will back up that observation of yourself of Reliance Revolution because one I've been doing that for the last two times but also I've been seeing on the demand side of things more companies are willing to hire a short-term parent especially younger companies in India for especially these young people see guys they're no longer say we need a full-time employee for this they're okay saying hey we need somebody for a period of two months to help us with this and once the process in all that is set then we'll get stuff taken care of internally so there is more as more demand happens obviously supply will come to fill that you see more and more people going on Twitter and saying hey okay if there is so much demand for something like this I guess I can actually take a on and quit my full-time job and get into freelance or something and yeah there is contract opportunity work of opening up everywhere else right it's not just in India I'm guessing tech guys for instance have opportunities from all over the world paying us salaries or rates sitting out of HSA layout or Belan do already where is all that matter so yeah and interestingly the apparently the highest weight of resignation is between the age of 30 to 45 right now I do not know that yeah which also makes a lot of sense right because currently like employers probably want to hire people with a certain amount of experience and these days are also at a point where they're evaluating everything about their life you know have a midlife crisis some people start a podcast some people choose to quit I think all of these are targeted towards people no but there's a totally what you said on that actually interesting if you look at it from a smaller market perspective like you can Malaysia and Singapore this market especially in the service industry is heavily dependent on expats so like a lot of expats take a lot of senior management rules now what's happening is because again there are very few incoming expats coming so with this particular thing especially in seeing this Singapore people who people are legitimately just quitting for more reason some people just want to stay but they are just threatening to quit and almost getting 100% appraisers because there is no way the company will be able to replace that and right and so that's where like a lot of people are actually making like coming going with the flow of the great as it is without even wanting to design for any real reason except for just leverage for getting better salaries yeah and of course there's another trend where you because people are working remotely now and they're in and people who are really good are actually balancing two jobs at the same time or at least I have heard tales of that possibly the same job for two different companies competing that'd be amazing to be matching to a com scan of each other not yet to do with the text but this and a lot more you know that feeling when you finish a movie and you just need to talk about it that desperate need to discuss why Kalhuna ho hits different enter IBM's brand new podcast Sennified it's streaming and current just yapping over Hindi cinema every Friday rom-coms director will debut skidio defining moments whatever they're vibing with they're breaking it down join the podcast on IBM pop's YouTube or any audio streaming platform caution you want to watch everything after listening to us come join us on Sennified streets and people from all professions every one day I go live with the show ask me anything AMA you follow the questions I know better than a Mumbai chad I even host a panel discussion called cock and bull when we dive into current affairs and wonder why anyone even cares at all and Friday releases all the surprise episodes for you all so tune into cyber says on YouTube and all all of you streaming platforms welcome back to our simplified episode on the great thankfully none of the four hosts have quit during the break which is something that you saw in the show and would have happened we have some presidents of that also we are not in the mood but anyway so as we discussed right the this great we were discussing the reasons employees are quitting but again as obviously with this huge ex-solders of employees employers have are desperately trying to retain them we explored one reason which is just throwing more money at them which actually is quite interesting across different industries so we discussed how it is in the service industry where people are almost doing that much money it's also true of the the I mean it's also true in the frontline service industry like service workers like fast food people and fast food workers and stuff like that in the US especially like so there was a booger king and that was actually putting out an ad for a for a chef or a kitchen worker and they normally advertise that job at minimum beach yeah and they when you they and according to the and this was I think in Ohio or somewhere and then when they would when they put the ad out they normally would get like 60 to 70 applications on average in this particular video they got zero not one application at minimum beach so then after what they like introspected and then they put the same ad out and double the beach and only then they get like 70 applications yeah and before you move on to that just a couple of days before we are recording this New York City passed a huge law that gave that gave geek workers especially delivery workers a lot of rights including minimum wage healthcare and things like that so the tide is turning not just from an individual company point of view but I guess society at large also realizing hey like we can't go on treating frontline workers or delivery workers like this and it's reflecting in policy making as well although this is the same country that the Texas abortion ban so keep a little perspective needed in my way to be honest with you effectively California and New York are effectively different countries like Texas and Georgia yeah I think the biggest ironic statement is the United States of America but anyway so this so yeah so what companies are doing and the first is that giving more money allowing for like people to get like their money and benefits and the second one is the different types of benefits people are giving so yeah what a lot of employers have realized that okay if I'm competing now they are no longer competing against like another company that's just giving more money or whatever they are competing against a freelance like yeah they're competing against a life where they're able to get a better work like balance so companies like Reddit are exactly so the most famous is Spotify completely declared that any job every job that they released is fully remote friendly so anyone from anywhere on the world can apply for that job they also so Reddit just recently gave a release that totally my policy was about giving fed time off so if you get a new pen you can get some time off to bond with that better stuff amazing so that that's that's a reddit just did that a whole bunch of companies have started giving extended paternity leaves to a lot of their employees where I think this was for employees who are extending their paternity yeah so you can actually have that one so there's there was this post by I was seeing a link that there was this post by an employee was talking about how he spent some time bonding with his newborn daughter and taking care and helping a mother and stuff like that over and there he was given like two months of paternity leave which is unprecedented effectively and finally also which is also really cool and shout out to my own company which is one of the first advertising agencies in the whole region that has given mental health support so actually allowing employees to go visit I mean covering employees costs for the first couple of visits to the mental health providers this is actually this is actually you know very nascent like a lot of companies are only now beginning to recognize that there is such a thing as mental health so you know you're just it's debilitating for some people and it's good that this has been recognized I take a part so that's what I mean like you said that it is extremely nascent most companies don't recognize it in fact it's a paradox I was just going through my employee my contract when I was packing everything up right now and I noted that in the medical benefits I had it was very clearly said mental health not covered right and it was like mentioned in my thing and from when I started to when I'm now my office explicitly provides mental health support and so that has been a big evolution in that time there's a recognition because now especially I don't think with the pandemic I think mental health issues or mental health problems and any kind of disorders have actually become more prevalent in the population than ever before in human history yeah no longer is a taboo thing that one person in a corner is suffering anymore yeah it's half your workforce or even more sometimes yeah so yeah so I don't know that because it's very interesting so there are obviously companies that are struggling to adapt to this whole thing and trying to stick with the old way of working is just now that zoom is going to replace meetings right and then there are companies are so super optimized for the new style of working recognizing the problems that could come in and the things that all of us are talking about like how do you bond a team over so just two three days back I came across a lovely Twitter thread I won't go to the whole thing because it's pretty long but a person basically said how they actually built a 60 plus percent team while driving about $30 million annual revenue and they gave like a very specific and it wasn't like general random FAF like be empathetic to everyone and all the very specific ideas so one they created a private team podcast right everybody has to talk about something about themselves that gets shared then they have a they have a culture of asynchronous communication which I think is which is really good they have a couple of no meeting days you see in his communication is just emails yeah yeah no it is but the expectation that you don't have meetings and stuff like that no so this could just have been anything then you start by what do you get into this weekend also so I think you know once you build for that I mean those are some specific examples but once you build for these things sorry I mean to cut you out these go together I know that yeah no other things almost things like this you know you have a specific email sequence a second for new team members you have to in order to get those water cooler conversations as if they try to force that a little bit by having unsolicited feedback sessions where one team has to come in on something like another team is that the whole bunch of things whole bunch of small tactical things like this which works with that company yeah I have heard of other kind of examples like this was not just a matter of you know hosting one random very forced breakout session once every Thursday or Friday or something it's something slightly more empathetic slightly you know slightly more effective in some ways yeah and like you said just progressive companies and I really another example of a tech company that's actually using tech to mitigate this process like one thing that they did was they had this automatic on their slack channel they have had like these automation that kind of push out something that share a picture from your weekend yeah right so it automatically goes out to all the employees and there is a conversation generated based on that so then there's an environment of your sharing something that you did over the weekend that was fun for you and all that stuff and so they've kind of like created a whole bunch of slack automations to kind of create a replicate that workplace environment of the camaraderie to some extent and so yeah there are a lot of companies that are doing shit like that yeah I've heard of a company called GitLab GitLab GitLab GitLab GitLab GitLab GitLab GitLab GitLab GitLab is a company that I think is a competitor with what's the company that Microsoft acquired Git Hub Git Hub Git Hub yeah so I think it's a competitor like that but what it does is not important since 2015 or 16 they have been completely remote in the sense they never ever had an office so they in fact have created that as a USP the fact that they are able to hire great talent from around the world because of this remote model and obviously their entire workflow and everything was optimized for remote which placed them extraordinarily well at the beginning of the pandemic they're about to go public right now if I remember and in interesting they even created they become sort of like quote-unquote thought leaders for the remote working space revolution so they've created a huge guide for hey all of you guys are going to work remotely for the first time here's what's worked for us and I remember reading somewhere I don't know how to this is that they're actually doing consultancy for other companies in terms of how to transition remotely just imagine they're like what a cool revenue stream that is yeah no and it is even with even with when you come to some advertising agencies like the one that I have recently left there was this there is an endeavor it's still not fully operational and still not fully affected but they have this endeavor of actually seeing how they have a directory of all the jobs that are there open around the world in the in the agency network and that they are actually open to internal audiences to rely and there is an actual like process which you can apply to those jobs and correspondingly there is that is the other factor which companies are trying to do along with the benefits is training so that with the factor of with the problem that a lot of employees are looking at I don't know what I want to do in the long term maybe I want to switch careers maybe a lot of switch industries companies are especially larger companies are actually willing to train their employees to work their new careers as long as they stay within the ecosystem and they have that thing that okay you can transition to another role and another vertical department altogether inside that so there are a lot of companies that are trying to offer more and more training to do that and so that becomes a major factor but finally the most important one which is which I think is critical to change the way we work is that companies are finally learning to adapt to the whole flexi working environment right so now you no longer so one thing is that companies are going back there they're trying to figure out and this is the most difficult thing to be honest because I work in the civil situation but the Singapore office is actually back to office okay the Asia is in back to office and obviously we are Singapore and Malaysia to different countries so we never can have a meeting in the same meeting room but trying to figure out how do you do a hybrid meeting where there are certain employees who are all at one location and certain who are joining remotely so you have like the classical problems of passing around the mic yeah the laptop which is there the mic has to be passed around so that every person speaking gets heard the banter gets missed and you are often noticed that like someone's talking they're talking that there's something between conversation and the people are not able to listen because the mic is not near them so there are some real I mean there is a real need for technological solutions that can allow for people who are physically present in the same location as well as people who are joining remotely to feed on equal footing as far as their as far as their ability to participate in a meeting coupled with also the flexi work time so a lot of companies are realizing that you know we don't need employees if we are able to get work done we don't need employees to work 60 or 40 or 50 or 60 hours a week right we just need them to maybe work we can afford to have them take a day off in the middle we can afford to give a lot of lot more time off to employees and other factor also is that we don't even need them to clock in nine to five they can choose to work at any one time so I got a sense of this when I was doing a lunch club conversation with someone from Toronto and they were talking about how they're in their company there are a whole bunch of young parents so young dads and young moms so they have like they have specific breaks on calendars without feeding breaks with their children feeding their brain breaks with their children and they have like and those are blackout hours for clients as well as internal or internal people and they're there are they have divided their organization to shift there's a dad shift and the mom shift so this is just Canada showing up yeah so with the dad shift is like the dad shifts are towards the evenings and the mom shifts are towards the afternoons or the mornings and so the dad shift is working with the mom shift is off at my source and they actually have like systems that they're reading out like that so I think it's a really exciting time to look at it from an employee and workforce point of view because there's so much innovation coming in and employers are now forced to innovate to retain talent and it has to become an employee's market yeah if you're it's a it's a record talent market like you have the choice of company that you want to go to and very excited to take your talents to 100% you know on that note I was just yeah one very important contribution I wanted to make regarding feeding children when my kids were very young so I was working my wife Sheila was a homemaker so afternoons was fine she stood so when I came back in the evening then the feeding the kids at night was my job if the food was not interesting the food was interesting she would feed them so I had to devise ways of with her logic was that you know you I'm doing the afternoon feeding as well so so I had to devise ways of food innovative ways of feeding kids are very difficult to feed if the food is not interesting and people who have kids I'm sure Tony is going to be able to do this so I just remember I I used to take this a little bit of food on the spoon and a spoon would be a space shuttle or something and it would go around operate half the room and then it would go and land in them out and they used to love that so that's amazing because nothing it just makes me sad to hear the story because while the world of mechanical engineering I took great gained the treatment the world of advertising as well because that's exactly what we do we make interesting products like you kind of like sexy old advertising has not lost anything ever right as we keep it like a chat where you're saying that the world of advertising just school feeds clients and like you know but I was you know when you're saying that I was thinking of something so we all think that like there's so much change that's happening around right now I was just thinking like even like school education and all that is happening remotely right now and they must be learning so much itself right because there's so much change happening in such a short period of time I guess in some sense the guys who are experiencing the most amount of change while they're studying are actually students who are studying each other to some extent exactly like hopefully it's a change yeah more importantly I hope that results in fewer ungooling competitions and more employee like employees at the campaigns wonderful I was a great more to sort of wind things up on tears to less ungooling competitions and more employees and what do we said on your finishing slide Oh my god you can take a minute of advertising yeah thank you thanks everyone very nice stay safe stay remote and stay simplified wow excellent bye