Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled. Today, my guest is one of my most favorite people to talk about all things parenting with, Harry Greblor. She was my very first parenting guy, the person who first encouraged me to see my baby with new eyes as a whole person, deserving of respect, and this changed my life.
Harry's been a rye associate that's resources for infant educators, associate for over 35 years now. She studied with Magda Gerber, like I later did. She is also a pickler pedagogue, and she's trained as a Waldorf early childhood teacher. She joined me here on Unruffled a year ago for a very popular episode, Every Child, Even a Tiny Baby, Deserves Time on Their Own.
Harry teaches weekly parent infant and toddler guidance classes, she consults privately, she holds workshops, you can check out all her wonderful offerings at harry's ryestudio.com, and I really love what she wrote on her website bio right here. Through Magda and Rye, I became familiar with the world of infants and learned that respect could be communicated through everyday interactions. And today, Harry's promise to share with us on sleep, beginning with infants. How can we send ourselves and our babies up for healthy sleep right from the beginning?
Harry often has surprising ideas to share, so I'm really looking forward to this. Hi Harry, thank you for joining me here again. Thanks for having me. I was hoping we'd talk about a topic that tends to be controversial for some reason, sleep, including sleep training and what that means.
I love how you're always able to kind of cut through things and give this really common sense advice, but I don't want to call it common sense because it's really more like uncommon sense, I feel, and I for one find it very comforting. It's always spot on and simple, kind of like the way Magda Gerber always shared, right? So I really appreciated your feedback over the years and now you have this wonderful Instagram account, Harry's Rye Studio, where you offer uniquely brilliant, warm advice about a lot of things, including sleep. So what's some of the basic advice that you'd like to give parents around sleep or things that you followed yourself?
Yes, I mean, I only will give advice that I tried. I just remember when my son was about five months and I thought, oh my God, what's he going to sleep? And I thought, oh, do I have to get help? And then I thought, well, I just have to do what I told other people to do over the years and sort of what Magda taught us to my very favorite and best tip ever in the world is from the very, very beginning, when you see your baby tired, even the littlest baby, to say you seem so tired, I just saw you rub your eyes.
Come, let's go get ready for bed. And that's it. I wish people would just take those moments to say that to their baby, all the different ages because they're bringing awareness to the child, you know, a simple awareness and they're having an action with it. So I see you're tired and now I'm going to pick you up and let's go get ready to rest, you know, for bed.
There's a giant payoff, no matter what you do after that is not as important as doing that initially. Because you're approaching it very positively for one thing. Yeah. It's not like, oh, this is a bad thing.
What this other thing that I think happens is before you even have your baby sleep sounds scary. I mean, people scare you. I think you're never going to sleep again. Yeah, you're never sleep again.
Well, that's true. You'll never sleep again. You need to have this, this and this. You need blackout curtains.
You need a sound machine. You need the snoo. And so with all that, you're inundated. It's so hard to come just to, what would I do?
And what was my baby like? It just removes us away from knowing our child before we even have a child. Right. You're putting all those things in between you instead of trusting this is a natural process.
Obviously, we're all given this ability to go to sleep. It's how we survive. People want to sleep. Remember, Mondo, just how much she loves sleep.
You know, she's always late for class and not just love sleep, but loved her bed. And that's how it can be for babies too. They can love where they sleep wherever you sleep. And I'm not saying it has to be here or there.
I think that's the personal decision of the family where the baby sleeps. But I think that people need to take a look at the baby as a whole person that gets tired, that's awake, now they're hungry, you know. Yeah, I'm getting that practice of observing because even before the eye rubbing, which is that classic, you almost feel like you're, it's a cartoon that your baby's rubbing their eyes because they're actually tired. But before that, and I was never good at this, there are all these signs like your baby is a little more dazed the way that they're looking at things or their movements are slowing down or they're kind of speeding up those early signs that come even before the eye rubbing and the yawning and all that, that it's best to catch.
It would be great if you can. But I always say eye rubbing because that's sort of universal that people can start there. Because the other things that you're talking about are a little more subtle, but they're for sure like maybe an hour after the baby wakes up, they've been playing and then it's not going so well for them anymore, right? Yeah, not focusing.
Or they're like you say, they're just gazing out, you know, so it's important to look, to observe. Or it's just that time element, which is so short that they're actually, okay, they woke up, they were fed, they, their diaper changed, and now they're playing. And then it's like, okay, boom, they're tired. It seems like two seconds later sometimes.
So knowing that that's going to come probably way sooner than you think also helps. I wanted to go back for a second to what you're saying about your tired. So like even when I hear that, I can hear my parents voice saying, you're tired in that kind of like, I'm really disappointed in your behavior and you're being a jerk away. And I think my kids sometimes took it that way, although I never meant it that way.
It's like, don't say I'm tired. You know, I'm talking about they're a lot older than infants, of course. I wonder if sometimes if tired is like they're copying out somehow, like they've done something wrong and they're tired and like, you know, you're exposing them or I don't know. But I got a little push back for that sometimes.
And so I think I used to say more like, do you feel sleepy? I don't know. For some reason that word can maybe it's because I had a bad feeling about it and I never used it the way my parents did, but somehow it came off like that. Anyway, I guess that happened to me too.
It's like, oh, she's tired, you know, like that. I feel like that's so much older. That's like a five year old or four. Yeah, but I think this tired being positive and starting from the beginning makes a difference.
It could also be, oh, you've been playing for a long time. I saw you rubbing your eyes. Come, I'm going to pick you up and let's go get ready for bed. You know, you press.
Yeah, or rest, whatever it's going to be. And it's just taking those moments before you pick the baby up to let them know. Oh, I noticed that I noticed things aren't going so well for you right now. Come let's go to bed.
The language is, you know, your choice, but I think older kids do take offense, you know, if you're blaming all their behavior on whether they're tired or not tired. Yeah, I agree. Which could actually be the reason for your. Yes, it could.
Well, I mean, if we want to go there too, you know, I get calls. Well, I had one the other day. It's a good example. You know, they were explaining hitting like that she's hitting them a lot and doing this and doing that.
And then so I asked and that's what I always ask is my first question. Tell me about her sleep. And of course it was about sleep and there's nothing else you can do with behavior until you sort out the sleep is what I think. Because that's part of this regulation.
That's just there does not. Yeah, it's not fair. It's not fair to try to discipline or do this or that with a kid that is tired. So the goal of that call was take a week to notice when do you see her first being tired, whatever sign that is for them.
Help me. I know when my child was about five months was watching and seeing when they were tired that things just weren't going. You know, things were also so simple, keeping things simple. That's another important piece to keeping life simple.
So if you're going here and going there and doing like so many things and you don't really get a chance to observe. And if you take time, even if you're not always just at home, but let's say just for a few weeks, you stay at home and you see after they woke up from their nighttime and then they go to play, you'll see clearly when they're getting tired. It's really obvious. Yeah.
It's something we can really compare to how we feel because we underestimate how much they give to every experience, how much of themselves, you know, like play with their whole bodies. They go to an event with their whole bodies and it is so much more exhausting than the way we as adults compartmentalize and kind of do this and use this part of ourselves. And I remember recently a parent asked me about, she was appalled. She said, we had this amazing birthday party for my child.
He was, I think, five years old. You know, they'd spend a lot of money. They'd done all this planning. It was like the best of everything.
It went beautifully. And then the next day their kids wanted to go do that. What is that? Whatever that is, their favorite thing.
And she took the girl's birthday. It was the day before and her brother and they were just terrible. They were like misbehaving. They were listening.
They were screaming. They were doing all this stuff. And she couldn't believe it. Like, look what I did and look what happened.
And like, believe I wrote back and said, you know, they're exhausted from what you did the day before. And this is the really unfair thing about children is that, you know, they get topped out way before we would. And so we can't base anything on how we're feeling. We really have to be observant of them and know them and also just be ready and be prepared that they're going to be tired when we least expect it maybe.
It's really common that somebody will say, I took them out, I did this, I did that, I got them this, I got them that. And then when I said, oh, they couldn't have that, they just like total meltdown. It's like, well, they're so exhausted. They're so tired.
And then adult respond with, you're ungrateful. Yeah. Because it seems that way. It does look that way, but it isn't that way.
Right. They're overstimulated, over tired. Yeah. So let's talk about more simple.
Well, first of all, I want to hear about the five months without sleeping, knowing this approach so well and then your own child not sleeping. Did you just kind of wait it out or like, what did you do? Well, I think that when they're really little, a rhythm will come. It's not there from the beginning.
So I think that it was really natural what was happening for me and for my son. And I remember going to my friend's house and she was in our ride class and we went to visit. I was at Arthur and her baby was there too. And then she's like, okay, she's going to have her nap now.
And I'm like, what? And then she said, yeah, well, she had her like two hour nap in the morning. And now it's her next nap. And I was like, how did you do that?
I was just jealous. And I thought, what am I doing wrong? And she told me this book that she read and was going by this book. And I actually had the book, I'd never read it.
I kind of got it more for work. I came home and I read it. And I thought to myself, no. I'm not doing that.
I'm not going on this person's rhythm. I'm going to find my son's rhythm. I'm not going to impose a rhythm on him. And so from that day forward, I just watched really carefully.
We had a rhythm of getting up in the morning being fed, very much connecting together, diapering, changing. And then he would go to play. And this started from a very early age. So around, it was around five months where I knew I had an hour after being very close and very intimate with him.
He would go to play and I had about an hour to get a coffee or eat some breakfast or something. And at the hour, I had a little chart. I know that's kind of nerdy. And I just watched and observed.
And I saw when things weren't going so well for him. That was sort of his sign. And then maybe I rub or a yawn. I'd see a yawn.
And for a week, every day, I ticked off. And it was like nine o'clock every day. There was a complete rhythm there. So around eight to 45, I would go and get him and wind down and prepare for sleep with like a little sleep sack or change the diaper, have some closeness.
And then he would go to sleep because he was tired. That's how I found his rhythm. So you felt like you were working harder at studying that, making the chart and everything. Then you had been previously or you feel like you just needed that amount of time to even find his rhythm.
Yes, I think he needed that amount of time. I think when they're little, it's just they're tired. They're awake. They're asleep.
I still think we have to pay attention. But they're falling asleep and they're tummy's upset and then they're working out. Yeah, there's so many things. So I feel like in the beginning, so it was around five, six, seven months that we really fell into a rhythm that was his.
And it was fantastic. Really gave me more freedom myself. I remember Mogg talking about that. People, they'll say, I don't know if people have said this to you in your class.
They don't want to do the same thing every day, every hour. They worked hard not to have to do that, not to go to the nine to five or whatever. But what they have to see is the more rhythmic that life of the child is gives them more freedom to do what they need to do and want to do. That's what I think.
Yeah, because a child, let's go into all these experiences with that confidence of knowing what's going to happen and this is how it's going to be and this feels right and I'm used to this and all those things. And I think a really important part of sleep and being able to go into sleep is being very well connected in the first place with an adult and also having that time, like we talked about last time about having that inner life, that time to play, a time where someone's not talking to them, asking of them. I think that all goes together. Where they're also free to move their bodies.
Yeah, there's a reason for all of it. You can't separate sleep from play, from caregiving. Right. And the fresh air, like you've been having a place to play outside is amazing.
Sleep outside, if you can. When my son was really little, I mean we had one of those little bassinet strollers so we could put it out in the garden to sleep. That was really nice. I tried to do that.
I had a pack and play out on our little porch and everybody in the neighborhood was doing construction. It seemed like it was just like, I had this romantic ideal from the children at Lokesi, which is for people who don't know, it's Emmy Pickler's Center where she had children and they would all take their naps out even in the snow and they would sleep outside and get their ready cheeks and had a place that was kind of covered porch where they could all take their naps and I was just really wanted to do that but it didn't work out so well for me. It was more like a frustration. And I think that's part of it too.
Like what you were saying before about relaxing into that your child just hadn't found it yet. There's so many psychological things around sleep I find and I'm finding this now because for myself, as I got an older, sleep is not easy and I go through periods where it's really, really hard. I never had that my whole life. I was always a great sleeper.
One of the best bits of advice that I read, it was like at the end of all these other things, like no matter what, wake up at the same time, go to bed at the same time, do a wind down thing, you know, all the things that we know with children but then the last one was, and don't worry about it, just let it go. And that's the part that has helped me the most, being able to let go and not try to control it, not try to worry about it, not thinking I'm not going to sleep very fast, like this is going to be bad and I'm going to need to go take a pill or do something. Really just knowing, okay, eventually you're going to go to sleep, you know how to do this. So what if it takes a long time?
You know? Yeah. And I think the anxiety is what keeps you for the adult anyway, the anxiety. And for the child, the anxiety of the adult, somebody trying to make somebody fall asleep, I just have issue with that.
There's a difference between putting someone to bed, however that looks, but just all the things that people do to make someone sleep. So I feel like we go in with they have to be asleep instead of just in bed. And one tip that I got is all you can do is put them to bed and you don't make them sleep. And you just continue when they're tired to put them to bed.
You know what I'm saying? Right. And what if they're crying? Well, you can be with them.
I'm not going to let them just be in there crying. But do you pick them up or do you let them stay there? I would hold them. A lot of crying before sleep is a release.
And that's something that is important to acknowledge. A five minute cry sometimes it's just like a big release. And they don't have to be alone in a room to do it. Right.
If you want them in your arms, they can be in your arms. I would tend to have that. One unique thing about me and sleep is I didn't used to leave the room. You know how people are like, I'll put on the machine and close the black out curtains and I'll tip toe out.
I don't do that. And I don't recommend it either. In my mind, if you think about Emmy Pickler's place where the children were eight in a room or a family that has a room with more than one child, and it's very unique to us that there's one person in a room all alone. And that it's such a controlled environment.
I mean, I think that's psychological part too. Like we're trying so hard to control it and make the perfect thing, like you said, to make them go to sleep. And that ends up backfiring on us because we're stressed about it. Right.
And the older kid, your older kid has to be quiet and then you're mad at them. And you know, you become the sleep, please, sort of. And it doesn't really feel good to anybody. No, it's too much pressure on us.
Especially to the child. Someone's waiting for them to go to sleep. That's not a good feeling. And then if it's not working, we're blaming ourselves and getting frustrated and all of that is making it all worse.
You know, when my son was really little, I'd lay on the bed. I'd read. I'd have to watch this process and we'd look at each other. And I would sing maybe, you know, sometimes and just be there with my daughter.
I would tidy up the room. I'd make the bed. They were in my room for the first year. Like we've turned it into something incredibly precious and scary and hard.
And this was a little more lighthearted. And going back to newborns when you say, oh, you're not going to get that much sleep. How I dealt with it is calling it fairy tale time. I'm up.
I'm asleep. I'm awake. It's the middle of the night. I see the moon.
You know, it's okay. And hopefully most if they can, they're with the baby. Right. So I'm talking about that very early stage of just like letting things be more easy going around sleep and not have all the stuff.
I don't know if you have any memories, but like I have memory of driving home from my aunt's house. It was kind of a far drive and falling asleep, but hearing everybody talking around. Totally. Yeah, like a blanket.
It just felt like I was out. So my dad would carry me in. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. It was just so sweet. And we take away the sweetness of the home by putting all the other things in. And it's just like, oh, they're washing dishes.
They're talking to each other. Oh, there's someone singing. I hear the dogs barking or the chimes or whatever it is. I know like a few have construction going on.
That's hard, but I'm talking about mostly natural sounds, not chainsaws. Yeah. And the siblings and not having to worry. This is the thing.
Both my kids are completely different people than each other and sleep was the same for them. They want to go to sleep when they're talking. Yeah. And to this day, I mean they're older, but yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. My daughters were like that my son was a different story, but I did all different things with him because he wanted it needed it and I ended up getting into it like lying with him in the bad, until he went to sleep when he had a bigger bed. I'm not saying it, but it wasn't lying in a crib.
I know some people do that, but lying with him in his bed with his little hand on my heart. And then I was thinking about this lately because one of the things I've done, because I went through this whole thing this year where I wasn't sleeping very well earlier in the year and I get a hot water bottle and I put it on my chest actually. And it reminds me of when Madeline, my second used to take naps and she would fall asleep on my tummy or my chest and it was so nice and comforting. And I mean, I those memories are precious.
I wouldn't give that up for anything either of those. So it's okay to do what we want to and need to do and to give in to certain things. Right. Yeah.
So what do you think about the people that believe that if you don't train right at a certain time when they're young that you're not giving them what they need or you're not talking to work or obviously you don't agree with that? I don't. I just see a different way. I want to go back though because I love what you just said about how wonderful it was to lay with him.
And I want people to know that we're not talking about how you put them to bed. We're just saying to notice them from the beginning and see what they need, not what people tell you they need or not what a book says they have to have. Like you know, if your child is too tired, you'll know. And sleep is like as important as food.
That's what they say. And I was going to say too, I'm talking about a rhythm, not a routine that goes by the clock. Right. Although I do agree with Magda and I've found this of course with my own sleep training that I've had to do with myself lately, finding my rhythm that oftentimes when it's a problem, it's because we caught it a little too late and that's even true for me.
I have a window and if I miss my window, it's just going to be hard. A lot harder. I know that people say that and I appreciate that. You noticed that for you.
I did not find that with my kids, but I would do experiments when they got older. We'd be having fun and playing games or something. And I wouldn't say like, it's time to get ready for bed and I just wait and see what would happen. They always would say, could you put us to bed now?
They'd always ask. Because you made it into something like, I see you, I see what you need and let's go help you right now. And also it was pleasant. It wasn't anybody standing there laying there really wanting them to go to sleep.
It's the vibe. So like, yes, you can lay there and be totally relaxed and just this is heaven. And that's great. I think a lot of people do feel that they have to be asleep before anything else could happen.
I never had that feeling. You want me to tell a funny story? Yes. So I'm guessing around three years old, three and a half maybe, and we went to someone's house and it was that thing where they don't want to leave that screaming.
I don't want to leave thing. And so I said, I'm picking you up and we have to leave and it was a real downpour, real storm outside. And I carried him kicking and screaming, got to the car and then I was able to put him in and he was mad. And we got home, which was very close.
And he got out of the car, opened it up and he took his hat, he's wearing a beanie. He just took it off and threw it down an opponent and he looks at me and he goes, I'm going straight to bed. Turning the tables on instead of like, parents saying it, you're going straight to bed, you are going straight to bed, he's like, he's going against you. Yeah.
I'm not going to listen to your stories, mommy. Yeah, he's like going, I am so tired. You know, that's what we want. That's the result of letting them know that you see what they're all about, what they're feeling, bringing their awareness to you, you rubbed your eyes or things are not going, you've been playing for a long time, you know?
Yeah. And come and it's like it's inviting. And we, whatever space they're going to be in is also inviting. It's somewhere you also like.
So whether it's your bed or a crib, whatever it is going to be for you or your family. And not to go on automatic. That's the worst. I've seen people right when they're born and they think they have to bounce them to sleep.
And they never even waited to find out if that baby wanted to be bounced. Mine hated to be bounced. Did you try it? Yeah.
I never tried that. I did try the swing. Somebody gave us a swing and my baby got this look on her face that was just look really out of it and it was disconcerting. You know, I never had that ball, the birth ball and I never bounced like that to get my kid to sleep.
I just want to say that. I said I did, but I didn't. That's okay if you did. But what I did do sometimes, you know how you kind of bounce like they're upset or you hold them like that?
Well, he would tell me not to. He did not like it. He's like, I don't want to be dizzy. I'm already upset.
And I remember like just being pregnant with him. When I went to sleep, he went to sleep. When we, I woke up, he woke up. I slept with the opposite.
As soon as I was trying to sleep, he was kicking me out of the place. Most kids are. And that's why he didn't like it when I could run. That's so interesting how they're the same person from when they were that little.
So I just want to talk a little about sleep training. And I don't even really know what it is. People will say to me, like they're trying to nail me to something that they think is true about me. Like, oh, you're really sleep training.
And I say, because that's how I honestly feel. I don't know what you mean by that. Can you tell me what it is? Then they act like I'm trying to be evasive or you know, it's like you're supposed to know what this thing is.
To me, it's like gentle parenting. Like what even is that? Oh, I do gentle parenting and this isn't working. Well, what are you doing?
What are you considering gentle parenting? Like when I started calling this work respectful parenting, that was because nobody knew what I was and instead of me trying to explain that online, I thought I'll just say this. But then other people say respectful parenting and it doesn't even still mean that anymore. So like all these labels are kind of, I just feel like I don't know what they are.
But the part of sleep training that I would not recommend or just wouldn't feel right to me, like I don't have any judgment of people. And I feel like how can there even be controversy about parenting? Like it's really what helps you and what speaks to you, what resonates with you. And you should be able to do that or try it at least no matter what other people are saying.
I don't understand why there would be arguments about anything to do with parenting. But to me, training sounds like it's some regimented approach. Like you said, I'm not going to put somebody else's rhythms on my relationship with my child. Like my family's rhythms.
I want to find my child's rhythm. You know, so that doesn't feel comfortable to me about sleep training is that it's like they're saying this is the set thing that you do to get this unique individual to sleep. And I just can't see how that would work in terms of thinking of our babies that way in the long term, you know, or even in the short term. Like that doesn't seem to be a relationship centered approach, which is what I believe in.
I agree. Like, I think right is behind sleep training where I'm not, you're not. And what is sleep training? Sleep training to me is a set of rules, like you say, and it's putting the baby in and letting the baby be.
And they talk about, you know, all kinds of things. And what do they talk about? I don't really know. I haven't researched it.
Yeah. Well, leaving the baby to cry. And I feel like there's a difference between a five minute cry in your arms or even longer in your arms. I feel like that's different than a baby, you know, the question that we were talking about earlier.
Like, I just don't think that they have to be by themselves. Yeah. But also there's different kinds of cries and there's cries that are like, you know, and you could say like, you seem like you're having a hard time getting to sleep. I'm going to go, you know, wash my hands or whatever and I'll be back to check on you in a few minutes.
Like I don't see anything wrong with that. It's not like I'm going in the hall but looking at my watch and going, okay, I got to do 10 minutes and I'm faking it. It's not like an artificial contrived thing. It's just a, okay, let's work together here.
Like I want to go do this. You know, it feels like it's not helping you to have me here right now. Maybe you need to like go a little. And so let's try that.
It's tricky because everybody wants the baby to go to sleep, you know, to be a sleep. It's such a big subject. It's so hard. I mean, I really, like someone said, why don't you do a workshop on sleep?
And really and truly I want to work individually with people on sleep. And I think the things we said are good starts, you know, I think it's good in the beginning. Like if I do a prenatal, what I can tell people is try not to create a habit that wasn't there before. Don't create a need that's not a need, right?
So that's like bouncing on the ball. Yeah. I think in terms of the bigger picture, right from the beginning, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. You don't have to start that. You know, like that. Yeah.
But I mean, let's be honest, I definitely wanted my data end with little kids. Like I was ready for them to be asleep in my data end. And it was hard to feel like the day ended when they were still awake. So I did want my kids to sleep, but I just knew or I learned that they're so aware they're reading everything, they're feeling all your vibes.
And you know, there's a letting go that has to start with us. We don't let go. They can't let go. Even if we've got a lot on our minds, we kind of have to be with them and exhale and let it go the agendas and everything.
But I mean, I can't say that I didn't want them to get to sleep really badly. I also wanted to get to sleep. So like, I mean, Monda wanted them to get to sleep. Monda was like, put the kids to bed and then go have dinner with your partner, your friends, have people over.
She was really about balance for the adults and the child, right? Together and apart. And I feel like I had that from her. You can see some pictures of baby sleeping like with such abandon.
You know, that is a real sign of I feel really good. And you see some kids that are, you know, holding on to something, you know, just looking for something and I don't know, that seems harder. And even Pickler talks about the picture of the baby is like kind of indicative of their day. I never heard that.
Yeah, I was thinking, Madeleine used to sleep like on her back with her hands clasped under her head and her elbows out. Like she was like sunbathing on the job. Yeah. So she was relaxed.
She had fresh air. She got to move her body. I mean, imagine trying to go to sleep and put your baby to bed. They've been in the swing.
They've been in a walker. They've been in the stroller in the car, you know, all the different things that they've been in without ever stretching out. Yeah. See what I mean by not being able to really separate it.
Because as we talk about sleep, I keep hearing in my mind, oh, someone's like, oh, someone's going to think that, you know, that we're just throwing them in the crib and walking out of the room. But it isn't like that. You know, it just isn't like that. It can be a happy, joyous, peaceful, just such a nice feeling to get into bed.
And Momma used to say, remember, like, just set the scene. It just gets calmer and calmer and calmer. And I'm mostly talking about the little ones. I really am.
But I mean, as you do this with the little ones, you give more to the older ones in a sense. They need you more. Maybe you're going to tell stories. Maybe you're going to sing songs.
You know, they're going to have their bath. All those things are symbols for what's happening next. And it's important to start with the baby with those symbols. The bath is always good as a part of the ritual.
First, they're thinner than there's the bath, then there's the pajama. And all those things are very intimate and close and full, you know, of the adult and the child. So separating isn't so quick to go to sleep. I've just been with you.
I've been talking to you. I've been asking for your foot and your hands to help with the pajamas. And we've been playful. And we sing songs.
By the time they go in the crib, they're like, oh, my God, stop talking to me. They're just like, I've had it. They're so filled up in a good way. But then they also need their own time.
That's why I always kind of felt a little bit sorry when people feel like they have to make them sleep, you know, is they don't have that opportunity to feel before they sleep and have some fun before they sleep. My kids want to play around, you know, a little bit before they sleep or maybe they're talking or I don't know, they're just doing something and they wake up the same way. When they wake up in the morning, if you rush to them or they're right there and you just get started, they just want to kind of hang and relax. Like I want to do that in my bed.
I don't want to get straight up, but we do have babies all the time. We put them in. We want them to go straight to sleep. We want them to come up and play.
My daughter cried like for the first six weeks, cried, cried, cried. And I remember like, oh my God, my son wasn't like that. What's happening here? And the moment that I stopped feeling that franticness when your tiny baby is crying so hard, which they do and nobody really tells you that they could cry for the first three months.
Yeah. When I realized, number one, she was probably very tired. And number two, I just had to relax, taking those deep breaths, sighing, just letting her. And that's when we really started to turn that corner for her.
I mean, lucky I did, right, because I didn't put her in a swing and I didn't try a ball and I didn't try all the things. I just held her and let her cry when she needed it. And that was how we turned the corner. The good thing about that is it's a lifelong approach right there that we can start early.
I mean, the other things are only going to last a certain amount of time or we're not going to be able to do them anymore, bouncing or whatever, swinging, rocking. But I'm not talking about this soft kind of rocking, more the rocking. There's nothing about it that's relaxing for the parent or the child. It's just a way to get to sleep.
All those things have a lifespan. But this idea of letting our baby share with us, you can tell all that stuff to me. That's something we can take with us to the end with our kids. And imagine like crying and being rocked out of it.
Yeah. Instead of held. I feel like there's a difference. Yeah.
It's like when you're angry and somebody wants to just go let me give you a big hug. It's also not allowing for the feelings, for the feelings of this is really hard for me. You know, I'm so tired and maybe I am too tired or whatever I am. Maybe there was too much going on today.
Too many guests and people. And then just being in your arms without an agenda. Yeah. It's hard.
It's really hard. It is hard. It passes and you know we all find our way and anyway this was big for me to get to hang out with you and talk with you and hear all your wisdom and I really appreciate it. So before we go Harry, you can find Harry on Instagram at Harry's Rye Studio.
And also didn't you say that you had something new that you're offering for parents? It's called Harry's house and I'm going to be showing my house. I'm welcoming you to my house. Everybody can come over.
And I want to show the principles of Pickler Rye and Respectful Parenting and how we translated it and what it looked like at our house. I have video. It'll be like a workshop. So people can get an idea of how the whole day could look.
Yeah, the environment, inside environment, outside, caregiving, free play, meals, just all the principles. That sounds great. Okay. Well, everybody check that out and it's going to be on your Instagram, right?
You're going to show how to sign up. Yeah, I just sent you a little link too. Oh, perfect. Thanks Janet.
All right. Thank you, Harry. And we'll talk again soon. Okay, great.
All right. Bye. Bye. Bye.